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Erdogan's first speech was almost 2 days after the earthquake and he said "We are monitoring who said what on the social media and tried to provoke the people.

• golergka 4y ago
  This is one of many, many reasons why western countries and social media companies should not normalise censorship re-branded like "fighting disinformation".
  • luckylion 4y ago
    Not sure that would make a difference. Western societies have an issue with genocide, so Russia claims Ukraine was committing genocide against Russians. If Westerners didn't care about genocide, Russia would've claimed something else, Putin certainly has no issue with genocide. So if our thing du jure wasn't misinformation, I'm sure they'd just claim they're using their powers to combat hate speech or whatever else is culturally okay. If there's really nothing available, there's always "we need to protect the children from predators who are trying to abuse this dire situation". In the end, it doesn't matter if you're in power. Your tribe will always be with you, no matter the reason you're giving, and the opposition will be silenced.
    • hkpack 4y ago
      You probably don't understand nuances of why Russia says what, it is not only about the western values, but just a very effective tactic in the information warfare. I know about at least three major points: * Russia always blame other party of the crimes it about to commit. It ties the enemy and allies into the "you did, no your did" kind of arguments. This also helps to push all sorts of fake narratives into the enemy population. We witness this over and over. * It is a power play. Russian people enjoy very much the fact that their officials can say and do whatever they want, and the world can do nothing. This gives Russians true joy (as witnessed first hand). It also demoralises enemy heavily, because instead of pointing to the obvious crime, "not everything is so clear" now. * It cements alternative history. For example, children in school all over Russia will learn about the current events based on the "official" alternative reasoning.
      • luckylion 4y ago
        I believe the Western values are what makes it an effective tactic, and it's the same reason why they're calling the Ukrainians Nazis while simultaneously running towards fascism: if you say that X is a Nazi and is committing genocide, you'll have a visceral reaction in the West that creates sympathies/doubts of other narratives in at least part of the population (this will not work the same way/to the same degree in non-Western societies). If the West was fascist, I'm sure Russia wouldn't be talking internationally about Nazis and genocide because it wouldn't have any impact. You're very right about the historical narrative as an internal component. Connecting current conflicts to WW2 will make people fall in line much more quickly than saying "it's about natural resources that were mistakenly buried on the wrong side of the border and also we want a land connection to Crimea". Much like Americans will always invoke freedom because it's part of their national identity and people are less likely to question why they're invading Iraq if you mention it. Russia being threatened by fascist forces in the West is a continuation of the existing historical narrative and neatly ties into it. It's definitely a much better PR strategy than Germany had in Afghanistan during Operation Enduring Freedom where our secretary of defense prominently said that Germany's security was being defended at the hindu kush. It's makes sense in abstraction ("we need to confront those who disregard human rights even if they're 5000 km away") but it's not concrete and it didn't increase support for the war at all.
  • bilbo0s 4y ago
    You're being naive. This has happened because 'western countries and social media companies ... normalise censorship re-branded [as] "fighting disinformation"'. They've literally shown the rest of the world how to do this.
  • PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    These companies are already in the dark deep of hyper partisan censorship. Take reddit for example. Nearly every sub is a left wing echo chamber, with essentially the same comment being made, and opposing viewpoints hidden, shadow-banned, or deleted under the guise of 'disinformation' even if they are factually accurate. Some of it is partly driven by liaisons within US and other governments, and supported by media. That is both problematic and terrorizing. Media was always supposed to be a counter-balance to government over-reach, but today, media is in on the scheme.
    • andybak 4y ago
      Except you can start your own subreddit and choose your own moderation policies. The inaccurately named /r/conservative has a lot of traffic and there are many more.
      • zaroth 4y ago
        I think some people tried that once…
      • PM_me_your_math 4y ago
        That's a funny joke considering 99% of subs which don't carry water is eventually banned for "misinformation" and is filled with bad actors and sock puppets.
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
      • atlantic 4y ago
        Being able to start a subreddit is meaningless, when right-leaning subreddits are systematically shut down, or restricted to the point of becoming inoperative, as soon as they pass a certain threshold popularity.
        • andybak 4y ago
          Citation needed
  • jhugo 4y ago
    Sad to see this being downvoted. Rational voices have been censored on many western platforms for saying things that went against the popular narrative, the most recent obvious example being during the pandemic. Some of the things censored were batshit crazy, some of them not, but blocking discussion and letting those in positions of power decide what is "disinformation" and what is "information" isn't the way to deal with the crazy stuff.
  • beefield 4y ago
    How do you propose western countries and social media companies fight disinformation?
    • ars 4y ago
      I propose they don't. That's not their job. Block only speech is actually illegal by the laws of the country. It's not their job to decide what is true and false.
      • beefield 4y ago
        well, we see where that ends by looking at 4chan. Why are you posting here and not there?
        • ars 4y ago
          > Why are you posting here and not there? That's the point - they can post what they like, and I don't have to look at it.
    • NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      The solution to bad speech is more speech. Not less.
      • Uehreka 4y ago
        I see your “The solution to bad speech is more speech” and raise you a “A lie can spread around the world before the truth can get its pants on”. Call or fold?
        • geysersam 4y ago
          Call. It's not about who's fastest, it's about who stays in the end. Despite us humans being a lying, cheating bunch, knowledge and access to education continues to grow all over the world. That's certainly not thanks to censorship!
  • newaccount2021 4y ago
    Exactly! In the US we routinely have "blessed" media organizations openly discussing the need to legislate/limit threats to their ability to "control the message"...but Erdogan cuts to the chase and everyone flips out. I mean...the day Musk took over Twitter, lots of comments here were calling for twitter.com to be kicked off the internet...
  • alphanullmeric 4y ago
    Curiously, all the people that support such censorship in western countries are actually against it in this instance. Almost like whether or not they choose to support a policy depends not on what it does but instead on who it’s being done to.
    • barbazoo 4y ago
      I hope you actually went and asked everybody.
      • alphanullmeric 4y ago
        Starting with you, do you support social media censorship in the United States? And do you support social media censorship by turkey? Those are yes or no questions.
        • LarryMullins 4y ago
          If he considered himself a counter-example to your claims, he probably would have said so upfront.
        • ars 4y ago
          No and no. I don't support any censorship at all for any topics even those that deeply offend me. The only exception would be actual death threats and things that are illegal to do.
          • tstrimple 4y ago
            This is tautological. Death threats are illegal speech because we decided to make it illegal speech. Something we could do for other types of speech.
        • guelo 4y ago
          Do you support Elon's censorship of antifa accounts?
  • jim_inont 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • Sunspark 4y ago
      If you are unhappy living in the West, there is no reason whatsoever why you cannot move to a country with more compatible values. Russia is accepting new immigrants and that is certainly an option available to you.
    • foronetimeonly1 4y ago
      [dead]
  • sorethescore 4y ago
    Nonsense, if you tolerate disinformation you get more disinformation. Countries that fail to address it will fall and the world will be worse off because of it. The right to free speech does not include the right to a free platform or free promotion.
    • bastardoperator 4y ago
      Agreed, disinformation is dangerous and it should be treated as such. Just because you say/write it doesn't mean I'm required to host it. Freedom to promote stupidity does not outweigh my right to unplug my microphone.
    • thatsagreatcomm 4y ago
      Who decides what's disinformation?
      • PartiallyTyped 4y ago
        This narrative has killed many republicans who feared getting vaccinated, and it will only kill more. One could argue that it is their own actions, but I am not keen on blaming people for their circumstances. The answer is we decide what is disinformation through our institutions and the value we place on them. Your and I's opinion on certain matters should never weigh remotely as much as an expert's on a particular topic unless we are such experts. We ought to measure the value of one's speech through the scrutiny it has to go through to be published at trusted channels.
        • d110af5ccf 4y ago
          > at trusted channels The public square is not in and of itself a trusted channel so I doubt you are talking about the same thing as the person you responded to.
          • PartiallyTyped 4y ago
            i assume you take it that twitter and FB are public squares? Well, I don’t.
  • flyinglizard 4y ago
    However disinformation may very well lead to totalitarian regimes, propped on distorted reality and fake news. A democracy must be able to defend itself.
    • candiodari 4y ago
      Democracies have always survived by making their subjects invested and empowered in the future of their country. There's a limit to how far disinformation can go, and, frankly, the only thing people are trying to achieve with censorship is moving that line the wrong way. The spread of wrong information has always been overwhelming. This is nothing new, nor is it (imho) more irritating now than is was 20 years ago. And if the history books are accurate on how bad it was 100 years ago ... This is not what's destroying democracies.
  • root_axis 4y ago
    That's unavoidable when moderation is routinely and deliberately conflated with political repression.
• boredumb 4y ago
  What a fool. He should have said he was fighting earthquake misinformation in order to preserve the rich democracy of turkey.
  • sidewndr46 4y ago
    Why does this make Erdogan a fool? edit: I legitimately have no idea why I am being downvoted. Can someone explain?
    • colpabar 4y ago
      Because when western leaders want to censor information, they claim said information is a "threat to democracy", and everyone just trusts them. (not that it would work - it seems like turkish people actually know how to protest)
      • coolbreezetft22 4y ago
        What a weird comment Erdogan has for past the decade regularly arrested critical journalists and opposition politicians on very flimsy trumped up charges. In America there is a massive and lucrative media industry dedicated to attacking whichever politician/party happens to be in power, alongside half of social media at any given time. It's pretty clear political freedom in the West is much stronger than in Turkey right now
      • foronetimeonly1 4y ago
        [dead]
    • FpUser 4y ago
      Because people can downvote things when they simply do not like your opinion disregarding of merits.
• beaned 4y ago
  > Also there were many incidents of the mainstream media cutting of talks or turning away the camera when people said or did anything discrediting the official narrative. Twitter itself pioneered this during covid. It's no surprise others learned from it.
• MonkeyClub 4y ago
  > Just look at his face when delivering this speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doy38aKbMw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doy38aKbMw4 I'm only half-snickering here, because the atmospheric choices are indeed very particular and telling. But the face (and its expression) has looked like this at least in the past 10 years. That's telling as well, you may say :)
• Kukumber 4y ago
  > Twitter was heavily used to seek help by people in turmoil, even hundreds of people were posting from under the rubbles. The officials were claiming that everything was under control and they are helping everyone but people were posting videos showing the situation on the ground and the situation didn't look even close to being under control. Social media is the first target no matter the country The US do the exact same [1], they control them with CIA agents [1*], so it is easier for them to do profiling rather than blocking it In fact, it's the first thing the US want to do for foreign apps, to ban them, just like with TikTok [2], they are recent talks about a global ban too So we can't just throw the stone at Turkey, you have to examinate the situation, they had a terrorist attack in Istanbul in november [3], mossad agents doing shady things [4], wich btw gives flashbacks of the failed coup by the mossad [5] (imagine if the coup succeeded knowing how the Ukraine-Russia conflict developped and the current issues in Azerbaijan-Armenia, they dodged something sinister) Twitter is known to be a place with lot of political activity, it's easy for a foreign country to spread misinformation, there are lot of noise And Twitter is not the most popular social media app in Turkey, plus the population in that region is not tech savvy either [1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-monitored-facebook-arrest-protesters-inciting-riots-court-records-n1231531 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/federal-agents-mon... [1#] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11562433/Facebook-riddled-ex-CIA-agents-ex-FBI-agents-work-Twitter.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11562433/Facebook-r... [2] - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/30/us-tiktok-ban-government-devices-china https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/30/us-tiktok... [3] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63615076 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63615076 [4] - https://www.aljazeera.com/program/al-jazeera-world/2023/1/11/an-investigation-into-the-mossads-activities-in-turkey https://www.aljazeera.com/program/al-jazeera-world/2023/1/11... [5] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
  • jrochkind1 4y ago
    > they control them with CIA agents [1*], so it is easier for them to do profiling rather than blocking it I don't understand what you're suggesting CIA agents are controlling. What is "them" in "they control them"? The article you link to involves surveillance (rather than control) by the FBI (rather than CIA).
• bigmattystyles 4y ago
  Erdogan and his ilk single-handedly made me hesitant about donating, that regardless who I donate to, they’ll find a way to line their pockets. I ended up donating, do the same, but Erdogan is a bastard man.
  • sokols 4y ago
    You can donate here: https://ahbap.org/disasters-turkey https://ahbap.org/disasters-turkey It's an NGO that currently is crowdsourcing donations for the relief.
    • madaxe_again 4y ago
      And there is what, precisely, to prevent Erdogan and his cronies from just seizing the funds and arresting the principals? These bank accounts are in Turkey. I would honestly be more comfortable using the likes of PayPal, as it’s less likely to be stolen by the government.
      • sokols 4y ago
        Well, if we go by the logic you stated, a meteorite may fall down to my head now while I am exiting my work place. Anyway, I think there are enough alternatives to donate. Where I live, a local relief organization is collecting donations for Turkey and Syria. Then there are UN agencies who do that etc.
        • LarryMullins 4y ago
          Erdogan doing Erdogan things is a lot more likely than a meteorite falling on you, but it's your money so you do you.
      • mrtksn 4y ago
        They are very quick in spending the money and don't do long term project, built a solid reputation over the years and it's founder is a Turkish Rocks star who is politically not very pronounced.
• moremetadata 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • icepat 4y ago
    Can you explain what makes this account a sock-puppet account, or how they're causing trouble? The comment makes valid points, and provides useful information.
  • unsupp0rted 4y ago
    Surprisingly, I upvoted for teaching me that the earthquake bomb was actually a thing and used in the wild: > It was used to disable the V2 launch sites at La Coupole and Blockhaus d'Éperlecques, put out of action the V-3 cannon sites at Fortress of Mimoyecques, sink the battleship Tirpitz and damage the U-boats' protective pens at St. Nazaire, as well as to attack many other targets which had been impossible to damage before. One of the most spectacular attacks was shortly after D-Day, when the Tallboy was used to prevent German tank reinforcements from moving by train. Rather than blow up the tracks – which would have been repaired in a day or so – the bombs were targeted on a tunnel near Saumur which carried the line under a mountain. Twenty-five Lancasters dropped the first Tallboys on the mountain, penetrating straight through the rock, and one of them exploded in the tunnel below. As a result, the entire rail line remained unusable until the end of the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_bomb
    • actionfromafar 4y ago
      Yes, but people will connect this factual bomb to something magic which can cause a region wide earthquakes. Undetected, of course, masquerading as a natural event.
• bamboozled 4y ago
  Another angry old guy...
• poulpy123 4y ago
  I've read report that Turkey bombarded part of Kurdish syria that suffered from the earthquake yesterday
  • mrtksn 4y ago
    I don't know about that but maybe you can donate to Syria, they were heavily affected by the quake too.
    • phillc73 4y ago
      I think the Kurdish Red Crescent could be a good option for donations. They have an appeal page here: https://www.heyvasor.com/en/banga-alikariya-lezgin-ji-bo-mexduren-erdheje/ https://www.heyvasor.com/en/banga-alikariya-lezgin-ji-bo-mex...
    • Laaas 4y ago
      Isn't that against sanctions?
      • mrtksn 4y ago
        I don't know but probably there are options to donate to organisations outside Syria which provide direct material help.
  • Hrun0 4y ago
    They also claimed that Turkey apparently used Nukes.
• latchkey 4y ago
  The background behind him seems like two people watching live drone footage.
• gwright 4y ago
  Yet another example of why inculcating the virtues of free speech and limited government into a culture is so important. It is too easy for those in power to infringe on individual speech rights by labeling something as "disinformation" or "misinformation" as their justification.
• Melatonic 4y ago
  I completely agree but we also really need to move past Twattered being the social media of choice for change. edit: Did I just get downvoted by Elon personally? Win!
• comboy 4y ago
  Can anybody elaborate why? I understand if it's financial crisis or some other gov fuckup. But this is a natural disaster on an unprecedented scale, government may not have enough resources to handle it. What's the game here?
  • mrtksn 4y ago
    Let me try. So Erdogan himself came into power after the 1999 Earthquake devastating the country and wrecking the economy, leading to early elections, leading to his party winning landslide election in 2002. That earthquake was like nothing seen before, hitting the most industrialised and populous part of the country and they had to introduce new taxes like Luxury consumption tax to fix the damage and prepare so that this never happen again. This luxury tax is applied pretty much on anything and that's why an iPhone 14 Pro cost 2300$ in Turkey(US price is 1000$). Turks also pay 2x to 5x the price of the price in EU or US on purchasing automobiles, so it's a big deal. They also have lot's of safeguards so people just don't buy from abroad, therefore everyone chips in. Also, Erdogan's primary achievement is construction business. He made sure that the builders can build and profit hugely, they also destroyed a lot of nature in the process and fine tuned the economy to serve the construction sector through the years. Guess what was the first Covid measures Erdogan announced at the start of the pandemic? He announced credit facilities for purchasing homes, no joke. Also, the new buildings were supposed to be built according to the new code which is quake resilient and it was one of the prime motivations of this construction based economy. Fast forward 20 years and we were struck with another huge earthquake. The initial response is very weak, in contrast to the 1999 quake because in that one the Turkish Army was summoned immediately but this time for some reason Erdogan doesn't request assistance from the army and the protocol allowing local governments requesting assistance was removed by Erdogan in the previous years. A full day passes without anything to show as a response when people are sending selfies from under the rubble with their address, seeking help. Most places receive no help whatsoever and people go into a winter night under the rubble or on the streets without electricity, food or water. Videos showing newly build homes collapsed, people find promotional materials claiming quake resistance and the new buildings are collapsing like the old ones The luxury tax, AKA the earthquake tax collected wasn't used to be ready for the next quake. This was something widely known and criticised but now we have videos of newly built buildings collapsed. It materialised. Anger builds up, Erdogan is no where to be seen and the ministers are giving ridiculous speeches about how everything is under control and use a language crafted for the upcoming elections. Then Erdogan appears on the TVs giving the speech you can watch. So yes, he fucked it up for about 20 years and fucked it up on the disaster night. He used to be huge critic of the way the politician he replaced handled the quake and he ended up doing exactly the same, even worse. If the irony has not set in yet, let me tell you that Turkey is in economical crisis for some years now and Erdogan is in a coalition with the guy who was in a coalition with the guy who he replaced. It's almost poetic.
• foronetimeonly1 4y ago
  [dead]
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• samuria 4y ago
  It's ironic that you are spreading disinformation about an app that is used to report disinformation. The app was released about 2 weeks ago. Not 24 hours after the earthquake. The feature was also already within the app.