9 ms·

Bad for which economy? Countless programmers over the years have packed up their bags and moved away from their small towns to live in big expensive tech hubs.

by briga 4y ago

Bad for which economy? Countless programmers over the years have packed up their bags and moved away from their small towns to live in big expensive tech hubs. This has certainly been beneficial for the economy of large metros--they didn't pay to educate these workers and in many cases these workers (including myself) were raised and educated in completely different countries. So these metros have a huge pool of high-skilled young working age adults bringing billions into the economy just in taxes. But what about the towns these people are from? They essentially get nothing out of the bargain, unless one day one of those workers decides to plop down a retirement home there, which by then their economic contributions have already peaked. The way I see it remote work reverses this trend and offers a far more equitable way of doing things. It takes the strain off the big metros and allows wealth to be spread more equally across the country.

gladiatr72 4y ago
Heh. Well, methinks your idea and mine as to what constitutes a small town are somewhat different. The small town (pop.~1500 at the time) canceled pre-calc my senior year; the district contacted, individually, the 3 of us that had enrolled. Something about being the only person who had enrolled, so they couldn't justify a regularly scheduled class. I guess they might have thought that nerds didn't talk to each other. While I don't doubt there are many non-mega-urban environments that fit your descriptions, the number of small (wee?) towns that might lay claim to such a tax would kill such a program in its crib.
- msrenee 4y ago
  >would kill such a a program in the crib. Did I miss something in the comment you're replying to or do I need to read the article? 1500 is a small town for sure. I'd consider 12k to be a small town as well. 1500 is way bigger than the town my dad is from. There's about 100 people there now. Your small town is huge compared to that. He sometimes talks about being on the highschool football team at the school shared by a collection of towns in the county. He says they did pretty damn good in the first half, but by the second they were all so worn out that they'd just get steamrolled. They only had enough players to cover the field you see. The guys all played both offense and defense. I imagine even a couple folks moving back there and working remotely would be a huge boon for the town. Heck, it'd make a big difference in the county, what with the biggest town only being around 3k people. It's very pretty there, but it's over an hour to the nearest city that has any kind of employment opportunities. If you can't make finances work on the pay from the gas station, your options are move out of town or move out of town. The internet is decent there and being able to work remotely would be the difference between being able to survive in that town or having to move away to find decent-paying work.
  - gladiatr72 4y ago
    Comment on comment regarding idea of some sort of remuneration going to the home town of those who grew up there. The difference between a town of 1500 and 12000 is very significant the further you get from a (real) city. Kids from nw Kansas drove to Hays to party, not Denver or KC because they were 3+ and 7+ hours away by car.
    - msrenee 4y ago
      They were talking about the tax dollars of remote workers going to the smaller towns. It's not exactly a program that needs to be set up. It didn't seem relevant to me in terms of the discussion, so I countered with an even smaller town. I grew up in a decent-sized metro area, but I've definitely lived the 3-hour drive to the nearest Target. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
  - ant6n 4y ago
    1500 sounds like a village.
    - gladiatr72 4y ago
      Yeah. I agree, but I don't think that population_exporter provides that metric. (at least not in the US)
    - lioeters 4y ago
      Apparently, 5000 is a common lower bound for what constitutes a "town". But then again, I have friends who live in smaller towns than that, and they might feel a bit insulted if I said they live in a "village".
scarface74 4y ago
There are 2.5 million developers in the US. Most of them don’t live in tech hubs. Most of them work for hospitals, insurance companies, state and local government, etc.
- tfehring 4y ago
  Even outside of tech hubs, the distribution of where those workers end up is pretty different from the the distribution of where they were raised. Not many of my classmates from rural Wisconsin ended up in the Bay Area or New York, but many moved to Chicago or Minneapolis, and of those still in Wisconsin, almost all of those with white-collar jobs are in Milwaukee or Madison. Lots of cities and even many college towns in "flyover country" are doing just fine, but the brain drain from towns with less to offer is very real. I imagine my hometown would be a very different place if people didn't have to leave to get decent jobs. Though of course there are plenty of other good reasons to leave.
raldi 4y ago
What the small town gets out of it is property values going up because families want to live there because they have good schools that set children on a path to go to a good college, learn a lot, and then move to a city and make a bunch of money.
- newswasboring 4y ago
  I don't think that's how that works. It's evident by the fact that there are no school towns like there are college towns. Once the people earning the money move out, there is no taxes left to fund education. Unless we nationalize education, which is not going to happen (at least in America).
  - raldi 4y ago
    School quality is one of the most important criteria people use when deciding where to buy a house.
    - newswasboring 4y ago
      Maybe within a city, but people are not moving to another town/city to get access to a good school. The primary factor for people moving somewhere is still jobs. If that wasn't the case why will these people move out of the place which made them this capable?
      - smelendez 4y ago
        Are you in the US? People here absolutely move to get access to what they perceive as good schools for their kids' needs. That can include leaving a major city for a suburb or choosing between multiple suburbs/small towns based on schools. Work-from-home ads more flexibility, but even with a traditional commute there are typically multiple towns/school districts within an easy range of any given workplace assuming you can afford good transportation.
        aflag 4y ago
klodolph 4y ago
The big metros are more efficient (dollar-wise) and have a lower environmental impact than small towns. Small towns, in the US, are already subsidized by big towns, at least economically.
- OJFord 4y ago
  Subsidised by more than the effect of the employee living, eating, and being entertained there? And that doesn't account for GP's immigrant case at all.
  - dymk 4y ago
    Suburbs are economically insolvent, dense cities aren’t. That’s the case for basically every suburb and dense downtown in the US.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      I think that's really missing the point of this hypothetical?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      The suburbs around Boston are definitely not economically insolvent, and the ones in metro-west are fairly flush financially (continually building and upgrading schools and other town amenities).
      - Steltek 4y ago
        The suburbs around Boston are effectively dense cities because they predate railroads, nevermind cars. You don't need skyscrapers to claim "density".
        sokoloff 4y ago
        Is that a "No True Suburb" argument?
hardware2win 4y ago
Indeed I live far, far away from my company, in tiny village while earning salary like people working there and im spending that money locally, thus supporting local businesses and communities

by briga 4y ago

gladiatr72 4y ago

Heh. Well, methinks your idea and mine as to what constitutes a small town are somewhat different. The small town (pop.~1500 at the time) canceled pre-calc my senior year; the district contacted, individually, the 3 of us that had enrolled. Something about being the only person who had enrolled, so they couldn't justify a regularly scheduled class. I guess they might have thought that nerds didn't talk to each other. While I don't doubt there are many non-mega-urban environments that fit your descriptions, the number of small (wee?) towns that might lay claim to such a tax would kill such a program in its crib.

msrenee 4y ago
>would kill such a a program in the crib. Did I miss something in the comment you're replying to or do I need to read the article? 1500 is a small town for sure. I'd consider 12k to be a small town as well. 1500 is way bigger than the town my dad is from. There's about 100 people there now. Your small town is huge compared to that. He sometimes talks about being on the highschool football team at the school shared by a collection of towns in the county. He says they did pretty damn good in the first half, but by the second they were all so worn out that they'd just get steamrolled. They only had enough players to cover the field you see. The guys all played both offense and defense. I imagine even a couple folks moving back there and working remotely would be a huge boon for the town. Heck, it'd make a big difference in the county, what with the biggest town only being around 3k people. It's very pretty there, but it's over an hour to the nearest city that has any kind of employment opportunities. If you can't make finances work on the pay from the gas station, your options are move out of town or move out of town. The internet is decent there and being able to work remotely would be the difference between being able to survive in that town or having to move away to find decent-paying work.
- gladiatr72 4y ago
  Comment on comment regarding idea of some sort of remuneration going to the home town of those who grew up there. The difference between a town of 1500 and 12000 is very significant the further you get from a (real) city. Kids from nw Kansas drove to Hays to party, not Denver or KC because they were 3+ and 7+ hours away by car.
  - msrenee 4y ago
    They were talking about the tax dollars of remote workers going to the smaller towns. It's not exactly a program that needs to be set up. It didn't seem relevant to me in terms of the discussion, so I countered with an even smaller town. I grew up in a decent-sized metro area, but I've definitely lived the 3-hour drive to the nearest Target. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
- ant6n 4y ago
  1500 sounds like a village.
  - gladiatr72 4y ago
    Yeah. I agree, but I don't think that population_exporter provides that metric. (at least not in the US)
  - lioeters 4y ago
    Apparently, 5000 is a common lower bound for what constitutes a "town". But then again, I have friends who live in smaller towns than that, and they might feel a bit insulted if I said they live in a "village".

scarface74 4y ago

There are 2.5 million developers in the US. Most of them don’t live in tech hubs. Most of them work for hospitals, insurance companies, state and local government, etc.

tfehring 4y ago
Even outside of tech hubs, the distribution of where those workers end up is pretty different from the the distribution of where they were raised. Not many of my classmates from rural Wisconsin ended up in the Bay Area or New York, but many moved to Chicago or Minneapolis, and of those still in Wisconsin, almost all of those with white-collar jobs are in Milwaukee or Madison. Lots of cities and even many college towns in "flyover country" are doing just fine, but the brain drain from towns with less to offer is very real. I imagine my hometown would be a very different place if people didn't have to leave to get decent jobs. Though of course there are plenty of other good reasons to leave.

raldi 4y ago

What the small town gets out of it is property values going up because families want to live there because they have good schools that set children on a path to go to a good college, learn a lot, and then move to a city and make a bunch of money.

newswasboring 4y ago
I don't think that's how that works. It's evident by the fact that there are no school towns like there are college towns. Once the people earning the money move out, there is no taxes left to fund education. Unless we nationalize education, which is not going to happen (at least in America).
- raldi 4y ago
  School quality is one of the most important criteria people use when deciding where to buy a house.
  - newswasboring 4y ago
    Maybe within a city, but people are not moving to another town/city to get access to a good school. The primary factor for people moving somewhere is still jobs. If that wasn't the case why will these people move out of the place which made them this capable?
    - smelendez 4y ago
      Are you in the US? People here absolutely move to get access to what they perceive as good schools for their kids' needs. That can include leaving a major city for a suburb or choosing between multiple suburbs/small towns based on schools. Work-from-home ads more flexibility, but even with a traditional commute there are typically multiple towns/school districts within an easy range of any given workplace assuming you can afford good transportation.
      - aflag 4y ago

klodolph 4y ago

The big metros are more efficient (dollar-wise) and have a lower environmental impact than small towns. Small towns, in the US, are already subsidized by big towns, at least economically.

OJFord 4y ago
Subsidised by more than the effect of the employee living, eating, and being entertained there? And that doesn't account for GP's immigrant case at all.
- dymk 4y ago
  Suburbs are economically insolvent, dense cities aren’t. That’s the case for basically every suburb and dense downtown in the US.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I think that's really missing the point of this hypothetical?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    The suburbs around Boston are definitely not economically insolvent, and the ones in metro-west are fairly flush financially (continually building and upgrading schools and other town amenities).
    - Steltek 4y ago
      The suburbs around Boston are effectively dense cities because they predate railroads, nevermind cars. You don't need skyscrapers to claim "density".
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        Is that a "No True Suburb" argument?

hardware2win 4y ago

Indeed I live far, far away from my company, in tiny village while earning salary like people working there and im spending that money locally, thus supporting local businesses and communities