52 ms·

Apple’s Mac security is so good, it’s sending used M1 MacBooks to the scrap heap

231 points by okl 4y ago

tw1984 4y ago
just think about all those poor kids around the world who couldn't afford a school laptop.
octacat 4y ago
Looks like some of these "broken" notebooks are actually stolen notebooks. If you buy online, you can contact the seller to solve the issue. It is actually the point of the feature. If someone knows they could not do anything with the device, they will not steal it (same with new phones). > Apple encourages owners of older devices to participate in the company’s trade-in program Which is a pretty bad program, reusing is always better than recycling. Apple will just scrap it into basic elements: metals, maybe lithium.
- chongli 4y ago
  I think that’s exactly what is going on here. If you’re a third party reseller who buys used Macs for resale then you need to have the original owner turn off Find My Mac so you can wipe the machine. If the person bringing the machine in for resale isn’t the original owner then, well, it may be stolen.
  - dTal 4y ago
    It may. Or it may not be. The default assumption that it's stolen causes a lot of needless waste. And frankly, even if it is stolen, is it really in the best interests of society to effectively destroy such a large investment of time and raw materials as a Macbook? One cannot but help noticing that this policy, like many of Apple's "for your own good" policies, are awfully convenient for Apple's bottom line. There are so many ways this could be resolved without destroying working equipment. Apple presumably knows who the registered owner is - they could be contacted. They could be unlocked at Apple stores, with various details taken to facilitate any potential theft investigation.
    - GeekyBear 4y ago
      > even if it is stolen, is it really in the best interests of society When laws were passed to require Apple to enable the feature by default on it's phones, society certainly seemed to think it was in everyone's best interests. >The temptation of a smartphone for a thief is dropping, thanks to Apple’s decision to implement a remote kill switch via Find My Phone that can erase and disable a phone once it’s been stolen or gone missing. A new report from Reuters found that iPhone theft dropped by 50 percent in London, 40 percent in San Francisco and 25 percent in New York. The drops represent theft activity as measured during the 12 months following Apple’s introduction of the remote locking feature in September 2013 as part of iOS 7. With iOS 8, Apple made its so-called said “kill switch” active by default, in accordance with California regulation, and that should help the rates of theft continue to trend downwards. https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-leads-to-big-drops-in-smartphone-theft-worldwide/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-lea...
    - michaelt 4y ago
      > The default assumption that it's stolen causes a lot of needless waste. We're talking about 2-year-old M1 macbooks [1], some of which are worth $1000 unlocked and approximately $0 locked. Even with broken screens etc, the owner can unlock them online. Large institutional owners like schools can get them unlocked in bulk through device management. And even if the institutional owners messed up the device registration and it's been locked to a fired employee's personal account, Apple can unlock them using the original sales records. In the absence of theft, it's difficult to imagine why the owner would be refusing to unlock the device, given they could share $1000 of value with the recycler. There aren't that many macbooks being repossessed by bailiffs. But if the devices have been stolen? That easily explains what is otherwise mysterious. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activation-lock-right-to-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activat...
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        > In the absence of theft, it's difficult to imagine why the owner would be refusing to unlock the device, It's generally not the owner refusing to unlock. It's the owner not being able to work out how to do it. Forgetting or not knowing they needed to do it. And/or not being contactable.
- hexagonwin 4y ago
  The thing is that the ones who steal are going to steal them anyway, even with the locks and sell them for parts. It won't really prevent theft but would only increase ewaste.
  - badcppdev 4y ago
    Are you sure? Seems like the market for spare parts would be saturated pretty quickly and the incentive to thieves would be reduced.
  - AstixAndBelix 4y ago
    selling something for parts (which implies it will be used to repair other devices) does not sound ewaste-y so me
  - jen20 4y ago
    They don’t, though. As cited in the last discussion about this, the theft rate for Apple devices is much lower than ones which are usable by criminals.
  - octacat 4y ago
    Many parts of new devices are serial number locked or soldered (or both). Makes the repairs hard though.
- lwkl 4y ago
  > Which is a pretty bad program, reusing is always better than recycling. Apple will just scrap it into basic elements: metals, maybe lithium. They have a refurbished program so they definitely don't just scrap devices you trade in. Maybe they even scrap some devices for parts. In the server space this is normal. HP would regularly send us refurbished replacement parts for repairs (this is also one of the reason why they want the replaced parts back).
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    Louis Rossmann says they shred them and recycle the raw materials so that nobody can resell for repair.
    - bzzzt 4y ago
      Louis Rossman built a business/cult around criticising everything Apple does for exposure and is not a credible source of unbiased information about Apple's policies.
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
        https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... > Apple rejects current industry best practices by forcing the recyclers it works with to shred iPhones and MacBooks so they cannot be repaired or reused—instead, they are turned into tiny shards of metal and glass.
        lwkl 4y ago
        Yeah I never argued that they don’t shred some of the devices. They probably refurbish part of the returns, take parts they need and shred the rest. This is also what’s written on the agreement in the screenshot of this article but they don’t mention it in the article. I don’t live in the US but in Switzerland you have to get the customers approval to refurbish and sell hardware that you take back from customers. This is probably similar in the US.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  > Apple will just scrap… False: for just one counterexample, Apple employees receive refurbs from trade-in as work machines. (Source: First hand experience of years).
  - octacat 4y ago
    cool, in this case. OK, they have refurbs on their site: https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished Though something like 2015 year models are not listed.
  - acdha 4y ago
    To be honest, I really like that policy: a software developer using a machine which is a couple of years old isn’t going to be as cavalier about performance and the hardware engineers would get a good idea about durability issues.
- captainmuon 4y ago
  What if the previous owner lost their account, is not reachable, or died? Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like a town hall, and they should be able to look up the previous owner. If they are deceased or they confirm that they no longer want the device, then after checking IDs and so on that office should be able to start the process to unlock the device. (That same department could give you recourse if your house burns down and you loose all your digital accounts, or you are locked out of Google unfairly.) Our civil institutions have not really kept up with technology here. Edit: Of course I wouldn't give government the capability to decrypt anybodys device or something! Just have an organisation that's purpose is to clarify ownership, and wipe and reuse devices so they don't end up as in a landfill. I don't really trust the vendor alone to optimize for reusing used devices.
  - mvanbaak 4y ago
    If you can prove you legally obtained the locked apple device, apple can unlock it for you. So this is a solved problem
    - bzzzt 4y ago
      Being given an old MacBook (by the original owner) is legal, but if you don't have a receipt Apple won't do a thing...
      - mvanbaak 4y ago
        That original owner can simply remove the macbook from their appleid and the whole thing is solved, even if the macbook is already in your hands.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    No, this shouldn’t be the case at all. Set this up with your family members if you want this to happen when you die. Give them your 1Password login and recovery keys or something. I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead.
neogodless 4y ago
Previous discussion (original Vice article, referenced within this one): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34504752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34504752 2 days ago, 410 comments
onphonenow 4y ago
The reduction in iPhone theft after activation lock was remarkable in the Bay Area. Did the person writing the article confirm none of these were stolen? Owners can now remove devices via web site I think. So if folks are saying these are just broken, have owner turn off activation lock
- Maxburn 4y ago
  Typical clickbait title, my main takeaway was; this security actually works that well? Sign me up. Give the original owner 30 days and if no response unlock it and let the thieves win? Uh, no I don't think so. It's not a far stretch to think everything got stolen and the owner is now locked out of their complete digital life.
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    > the owner is now locked out of their complete digital life. Everything what? Do laptop theves also usually steal your sticky note with password?
    - BizarreByte 4y ago
      Losing a phone is more serious than a laptop for most people in a world of enforced 2fa.
      - Maxburn 4y ago
        And it really isn't that far fetched that both your phone and laptop got stolen. Maybe they were in the same bag etc.
- abeppu 4y ago
  > Owners can now remove devices via web site I think. So if folks are saying these are just broken, have owner turn off activation lock For this to work and for the device to _see_ that it has been removed from an account requires that even in it's locked that it must be able to start up and allow the person with physical access to at least configure some network details right?
rafaelturk 4y ago
Or, maybe all those Macs were actually stolen..
selykg 4y ago
Regarding Find My Mac and the various locks that can cause. Does anyone have advice on a business case for this? I'm planning on switching our staff over to MacBooks this year and would love to understand the pros and cons of users using their own Apple ID versus a company provided one. We work remotely, so that could possibly complicate things. The last thing I need is a former staff member setting up Find My Mac and locking it to their Apple ID then leaving the company.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  This is one of the reasons we've switched over to an MDM solution. If you set it up correctly, the MDM can unlock the Mac, regardless of the apple ID used.
- pc86 4y ago
  We use macs at my job, there is MDM software available. It's clearly tagged with a sticker on the back, which I assume goes back to some entry in the MDM software, and even though I use a personal Apple ID (I created a new one for this purpose but same end effect) I have no doubt they could press a button to brick the machine until it makes its way back to them if they really had to.
  - selykg 4y ago
    Awesome, that is probably the direction I need to head then. I have another company doing the general infrastructure, but I get to be the one deciding the rules. Trying to find the right balance between giving people a little freedom but not so much they hang me, or the company.
- morpheuskafka 4y ago
  I believe your MDM solution should be able to set up a corporate bypass for this as well as allow you to remotely locate the device: https://docs.jamf.com/jamf- https://docs.jamf.com/jamf- now/documentation/Using_Activation_Lock_Bypass.html Another approach is to just let employees keep or buy out their laptop when they leave as a benefit. The cost of a MacBook isn't that huge relative to a tech salary.
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
If it makes my laptop useless to be stolen and protects my personal information and finances I'd choose them being sent to the landfill over second hand market. None of this is an issue if its actually real second hand.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Apparently the laptops are given to a recycler to be destroyed by an institution. He’s trying to refurb and sell. https://twitter.com/rdklinc/status/1617541547469193217 https://twitter.com/rdklinc/status/1617541547469193217 > Wrong -- it means that 1000 of these devices were dumped from an institution to a recycler without even bothering to log out first. And these apathetic institutions don't return calls when asked to unlock because they want the machines destroyed.
  - chongli 4y ago
    Isn't this just a case of "buyer beware" for the recycler? If the machines haven't been properly erased so that they can have ownership transferred then the recyclers should refuse to accept them. On the other hand, if the original owners want the machines actually destroyed and not resold then I don't see the problem here.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      On the third hand, they're a recycler. It's unfortunate these Macs can't be reused, but I imagine the Recycler got these for free or bought them and paid scrap metal prices, not "we'll resell this" prices.
      - psychphysic 4y ago
        I disagree. I think apple should run a refurb but they wouldn't as that would depress their retail price. The devices are recycled just for parts. Even the motherboard will have parts removed and reused. It's a lot more work than flipping the laptop on eBay.
fmajid 4y ago
As others pointed out, most likely stolen, although one legitimate case would be computers from a bankruptcy where the IT department was laid off and did not wipe the machines. It would be good for Apple to have a bounty program to take the machines back and reunite them with the owner, possibly paying a reward to the finder. If the finder is the thief, they'd be taking a big risk of being fingered and arrested.
- dijit 4y ago
  I saw someone on Tiktok complaining about this and they said that the laptops came from a company. But the iCloud lock very clearly showed an @outlook.com email address, which would be absolutely bizarre for a company that's recycling a bundle of 50 or so laptops.
  - scohesc 4y ago
    You'd be surprised at the amount of companies that cheap out on MDM solutions - it's easier to keep track of a bunch of outlook icloud accounts than it is to get a mac and set up MDM to some companies. Not saying it's right, but it's been done before - likely because you have an IT department that's exclusively Windows-based and you have a creative department that wants all Apple products... Either ignorance, cheapness, or unwillingness to learn.
newaccount2021 4y ago
[dead]
kayodelycaon 4y ago
> If you’re selling a device, you can’t just wipe out the drive and reinstall the operating system. Yeah. Sure. You can’t wipe the drive on an M1 and have the machine still boot. Reinstalling the OS doesn’t erase the data volume. You have to use Erase All Content and Settings. Apple documents the process pretty clearly. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212749 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212749
- lelandfe 4y ago
  And, even more directly, "What to do before you sell, give away, or trade in your Mac": https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 ...but if you forget to do that stuff, the Mac will indeed be unusable by the purchaser.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    The interesting part about all of this to me is that this has been no-win for Apple. When they didn't have measures like this on the iPhone and Mac, they were lambasted by local police and DAs for not doing anything about theft. Now they have it, and it's causing otherwise useful devices to be rendered useless. There's going to have to be a very finely-crafted compromise to be usable, enable reselling when the original owner has forgotten or is unable to do things, and prevents theft. They've made some strides towards this but cases where MDM devices are liquidated but not de-enrolled are still problematic.
    - bakugo 4y ago
      > they were lambasted by local police and DAs for not doing anything about theft. No, they weren't, they just want you to think they were. They're not special vs other computer manufacturers in this context. > and it's causing otherwise useful devices to be rendered useless This is a win for them. They don't want you reselling devices, they want you to throw your old devices in the trash and buy brand new ones.
      - judge2020 4y ago
bakugo 4y ago
No surprise to see the majority on this website defending Apple's production of massive amounts of e-waste for the sake of "security and privacy" because that's that the marketing tells them and they don't actually understand the topic at all.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Less security (a small-time attacker isn't going to break the encryption) and more reduction/prevention of theft. These Macs end up in recycling centers because thieves know they'll get banned/a strike from eBay if they sell an activation locked device to a customer and that customer complains to the site, so the recycling centers end up being the ones trying to resell/reuse the devices only when most of the ones they get are from thieves (or, as it turns out, IT departments that don't disassociate MDM).
- tzs 4y ago
  It's not "massive amounts of e-waste". There are a couple cases to consider. 1. Individual sales of used devices to individual buyers. You only get e-waste in this case if (a) the seller doesn't realize they need to unlock the device first, and (b) they buyer doesn't realize that the device needs to be unlocked by the seller, and (c) once the buyer receives the device and notices it needs to be unlocked (which they will notice the first time they try to use it) the buyer cannot make an arrangement with the seller to unlock it. This should be very rare, because even if the seller doesn't realize the device is locked they are probably going to realize that they have plenty of personal data on it they need to erase first, and are going to Google something like "wipe Mac before selling" or "erase Mac before selling" and the first result is going to be Apple's "What to do before you sell, give away, or trade in your Mac" article. 2. Sales to entities that deal in used computers. Similar analysis to #1, except in this case the buyer definitely should know about how locking works and the need to ensure that the seller unlocks it. If the seller cannot ensure it is unlocked the buyer should offer a lot less money. The difference in value between an unlocked device and a locked one is large, so the seller should be willing to unlock it. We should then only get e-waste in the case where the seller cannot unlock it. If the seller cannot unlock it because they legitimately owned it but somehow forgot the necessary credentials, they can get Apple to unlock it if they can show Apple proof of legitimate ownership. Corporate sellers tend to keep purchase records for these kind of things so this should be no problem. Individual owners often don't keep such records, but the number of individuals selling used Apple devices who have forgotten their credentials is very likely quite low.
philliphaydon 4y ago
https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-advocate-urges-apple-to-let-resellers-bypass-security-protocols https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-a... > However, he neglects to mention that Apple already has a process to do this for legally-obtained products. > The process is very simple. If a user has purchased an Apple product through means that will produce a receipt, like through eBay, users can request Activation Lock to be removed. All the user has to do is navigate to Apple Support and provide a receipt as proof. > The problem Bumstead is likely running into is MDM or mobile device management. Apple will not unlock products that were previously part of an MDM system that's still attached. So devices sent to a recycling center to be destroyed are being picked up and resold. So this whole thing seems like a non issue.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I would note that a legal way to get a laptop is to have it given to you. Not every transaction that transfers ownership entails a receipt from a corporation or even the exchange of money.
  - xoa 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - trinsic2 4y ago
      think these discussions can be higher quality if you spend a minute thinking through your hot takes and doing a bit of research. In this case, > > if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. Decryption security should be handled in a way that the decouples user data from the device itself. There will always be theft. The impact that we have on the planet is something we can no longer afford to ignore. This isn't an issue of turning off our brains. We have two problems we have an issue with theft and how security mechanisms that are tied directly to the device strongly prevents reuse and resale.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
This is a feature not a bug.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I once factory reset my Google Nexus 6 and sold it on eBay only to find out they needed my credentials! For a time, before factory resetting, you needed to remove your account from the phone. I had no idea.
graderjs 4y ago
Owners need to unlink their device before sale, and buyers need to verify that before purchase. This is not Apple's problem to serve.
_cenw 4y ago
This is also institutions using them wrong. You're supposed to enroll these things into DEP, which is annoying to shut up (boot into recovery, enable rw on system partition, block deviceenrollment.apple.com via hosts, turn system integrity back on), but at worst the user will be asked to enroll their device every 4 hours.
fprog 4y ago
I found a pair of AirPods a while back and wanted to return them to their owner. They must be associated with an Apple ID, so I reached out to Apple and asked if they’d help me get in touch. They said no, and advised me to file a police report. I wonder why they have this policy? They have all the necessary information to facilitate a conversation. Heck, with services like Hide My Email, they could even keep the identities of each party private.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Is it hard to imagine the thief themselves using this to extort someone if they want their airpods back, or use that contact info to phish the owner for their Apple ID password?
- mproud 4y ago
  Nah, AirPods can’t be forcibly activation locked. So, yes, they can be taken and used by someone else. (But they’re a low cost item.) Anyway, Apple has decided there are only two ways to determine the owner: 1. Find My Activation Lock 2. Original Proof of Purchase
dvdkon 4y ago
Where I live, e-waste recycling is very (over)regulated, so I can see a way out of this problem that doesn't take away from the unprofitability of stealing Apple devices. If Apple allows officially-registered e-waste recyclers (which can't pay more than scrap value for devices) to send unlock requests, they can then sell them on, but thieves won't get anything out of it, barring some grand e-waste conspiracy. I personally don't like this system, I don't want any third party to have this kind of control over my device, but I have to admit that it's a system that works today and does its job, and with one small-ish tweak it could be even better.
- judge2020 4y ago
  > but thieves won't get anything out of it, barring some grand e-waste conspiracy. A conspiracy isn't required for this to increase theft. Recyclers could start advertising maybe $50-100 per Macbook if they can guarantee they'll be able to sell each mac people bring in. Next thing you know, people start stealing more of them since there's now a middleman that pays out enough per device and doesn't ask questions like "did you steal these" or "why are all of the Apple IDs different". The only way this would work is if the program had the e-waste centers submit a photo ID of the person that brought the product to match against the current Apple ID name and address.
  - dvdkon 4y ago
    That's true, but if e-waste recycling is regulated (by the government or a private entity) so that the recyclers can't pay more than scrap value, that would require a conspiracy of the recycler and a third party.
nottorp 4y ago
Last time I bought an used Apple device i checked icloud/activation lock with the seller before paying for it. Guess that's what the resellers should do as well. If it's done remotely, just pay after verifying or refuse to buy. Of course that cuts into their profit margins but it's not like used Apple thingies are particularly cheap...
mproud 4y ago
Or, you know, people can remove the Find My before they sell it. Because any other loophole will be taken advantaged of.
ryandrake 4y ago
I can’t believe the HN consensus on this one! A system that relies on the original owner to perform some incantation or the device is e-waste? Really, that’s the best Apple could do? I sympathize with the resellers here. Often times the original owner cannot be contacted. Maybe they are dead and the machine came form an estate sale. Maybe it was sold on consignment or something. Maybe the original owner is just very difficult to find. I bought a MacBook off an eBay seller, and had to deal with this shit. It took the seller forever but by some miracle he was able to track down and contact the original owner so he could unlock it. Without this hassle, a perfectly good computer would have been e-waste in a landfill somewhere. Frustrating the legitimate second hand market and the ecological impact of all this waste is a high price to pay for mere anti-theft. Companies are very eager to kill the secondary market for their goods, and accepting this scheme plays into Apple’s hands.
- Veen 4y ago
  The 'mere' anti-theft and privacy benefits are way more important to me than the second-hand market. Plus, the difficulty caused by the anti-theft mechanism is straightforward to overcome provided the seller is legitimate.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    Why should onus be on legitimate refurbishers and resellers to prove that the device is not stolen (extremely hard) rather than on the victim to report the device as stolen within a 30-90 day grace period (trivial)? After this grace period the device would wipe the data encryption keys and unlock itself. A simple solution that protects both sides, it just so happens to conflict with Apple's earnings goals.
    - Veen 4y ago
      When I spend several thousand pounds on a laptop, I expect its features, including its privacy features, to maximally benefit me, not some hypothetical refurbisher who I, quite honestly, don't give a shit about.
JKCalhoun 4y ago
When I worked at Apple, I had used an iPad for testing. I ended up also creating an icloud test-account for it. Some year or so later I got an email from another employee within Apple (who now had the device) asking that I sign out of the device so they could wipe it. Wow, I couldn't remember my iCloud test-account password. I was surprised there wasn't some low-level way to just wipe the device. (I did eventually guess the account password.)
- judge2020 4y ago
  You can always wipe via putting it in restore mode, but if it's activation locked, you won't be able to get past setup unless you have the password. This prevents theft even if the thief knows how to hold the buttons in the right order to restore the device to factory settings.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Yeah, I assumed there was a restore mode. But honestly, it changes so much from generation to generation that I have stopped trying to keep track of what you can/can't do with iHardware.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      Recovery mode is still relatively easy, it's DFU mode that has been vastly complicated. It seems the timing has to be just right since it took me about 30 minutes of trying to get my 12 in DFU mode due to something that wasn't going away from a regular recovery mode ipsw restore.
deafpolygon 4y ago
Wouldn’t that cause more electronic waste?
a_vanderbilt 4y ago
Sounds like they are using the concern for recycling to mask their frustration with Apple's Activation Lock making stolen goods worthless. If they obtained the laptops legitimately, they would have known better to remove the devices from user's accounts before accepting them.
lowbloodsugar 4y ago
>which means that the second owner needs to be able to work with the original owner to get the request fulfilled. In some instances, that’s difficult or impossible to do. Good. Let’s not pretend that theft isn’t a problem.
60secs 4y ago
This seems like an intentional feature to sell more MacBooks.
egberts1 4y ago
TL;DR: Apple M1 MacBook have near-zero resale value.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
Activation lock can be disabled with find my on another device sharing the iCloud account, can’t it? So are these repair shops not even calling old trade in contacts to request removing the device? Because it’s stolen or something?
balls187 4y ago
The original vice article had a key fact that is missing from the macworld article. The issue is the laptops are received by recyclers in an ill-gotten manner. Companies were sending thousands of laptops to be destroyed and instead the ended up in recyclers who are attempting to wipe and then resell them, which is why recyclers could not get the original legal owners to remove the activation lock. If the recycler had an agreement to wipe and reuse the machines, and the activation lock prevented it, then those thousands of machines should be shipped back to the company to dispose of, along with a bill for the shipping cost, and time.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  The original Vice article[1] makes no such claim. I'm assuming you drew that conclusion from the following quote: > Often the previous owners are corporations or schools who buy and sell the machines in bulk and aren't interested in helping recyclers or refurbishers unlock them. "Previous owners do not return phone calls, and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed, so it is critical we have a solution that does not depend on the previous owner approving,” Bumstead said. But if you check his website[1], the terms of sale make it clear that devices are intended for resale: > Although RDKL, Inc., always attempts to erase hard drives and remove personal data before a device is sold to another party, RDKL, Inc., cannot guarantee that all traces of the seller's identity have been permanently removed, and it is therefore the seller's responsibility to remove personal data from a device before selling it to RDKL, Inc. Why would he pay for devices that he would be contractually obligated to destroy, at his own expense? [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activation-lock-right-to-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activat... [2] https://www.rdklinc.com/sell-terms https://www.rdklinc.com/sell-terms
  - balls187 4y ago
    Yes, I inferred that by having machines that were thought to be destroyed, the PC refurbisher got them in violation of an agreement. > Why would he pay for devices that he would be contractually obligated to destroy, at his own expense? That assumes RDKL was the original service provider chosen to destroy the macbooks; it's also probable that RDKL purchased those dumped machines from another service provider, the latter collecting not only the fee to destroy the machine but revenue for reselling usable machines.
dmtroyer 4y ago
“millions”, huh? I see hyperbole like this and I just skip the article and move on.
madjam002 4y ago
I just bought a second hand Mac which is due to arrive and am worried about this. If I set up the device with my Apple ID and enable Find My, is there any way for the original owner to lock me out afterwards even after I’ve associated the device with my own Apple ID?

231 points by okl 4y ago

tw1984 4y ago

just think about all those poor kids around the world who couldn't afford a school laptop.

Looks like some of these "broken" notebooks are actually stolen notebooks. If you buy online, you can contact the seller to solve the issue. It is actually the point of the feature. If someone knows they could not do anything with the device, they will not steal it (same with new phones). > Apple encourages owners of older devices to participate in the company’s trade-in program Which is a pretty bad program, reusing is always better than recycling. Apple will just scrap it into basic elements: metals, maybe lithium.

chongli 4y ago
I think that’s exactly what is going on here. If you’re a third party reseller who buys used Macs for resale then you need to have the original owner turn off Find My Mac so you can wipe the machine. If the person bringing the machine in for resale isn’t the original owner then, well, it may be stolen.
- dTal 4y ago
  It may. Or it may not be. The default assumption that it's stolen causes a lot of needless waste. And frankly, even if it is stolen, is it really in the best interests of society to effectively destroy such a large investment of time and raw materials as a Macbook? One cannot but help noticing that this policy, like many of Apple's "for your own good" policies, are awfully convenient for Apple's bottom line. There are so many ways this could be resolved without destroying working equipment. Apple presumably knows who the registered owner is - they could be contacted. They could be unlocked at Apple stores, with various details taken to facilitate any potential theft investigation.
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    > even if it is stolen, is it really in the best interests of society When laws were passed to require Apple to enable the feature by default on it's phones, society certainly seemed to think it was in everyone's best interests. >The temptation of a smartphone for a thief is dropping, thanks to Apple’s decision to implement a remote kill switch via Find My Phone that can erase and disable a phone once it’s been stolen or gone missing. A new report from Reuters found that iPhone theft dropped by 50 percent in London, 40 percent in San Francisco and 25 percent in New York. The drops represent theft activity as measured during the 12 months following Apple’s introduction of the remote locking feature in September 2013 as part of iOS 7. With iOS 8, Apple made its so-called said “kill switch” active by default, in accordance with California regulation, and that should help the rates of theft continue to trend downwards. https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-leads-to-big-drops-in-smartphone-theft-worldwide/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/apples-activation-lock-lea...
  - michaelt 4y ago
    > The default assumption that it's stolen causes a lot of needless waste. We're talking about 2-year-old M1 macbooks [1], some of which are worth $1000 unlocked and approximately $0 locked. Even with broken screens etc, the owner can unlock them online. Large institutional owners like schools can get them unlocked in bulk through device management. And even if the institutional owners messed up the device registration and it's been locked to a fired employee's personal account, Apple can unlock them using the original sales records. In the absence of theft, it's difficult to imagine why the owner would be refusing to unlock the device, given they could share $1000 of value with the recycler. There aren't that many macbooks being repossessed by bailiffs. But if the devices have been stolen? That easily explains what is otherwise mysterious. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activation-lock-right-to-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activat...
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > In the absence of theft, it's difficult to imagine why the owner would be refusing to unlock the device, It's generally not the owner refusing to unlock. It's the owner not being able to work out how to do it. Forgetting or not knowing they needed to do it. And/or not being contactable.
hexagonwin 4y ago
The thing is that the ones who steal are going to steal them anyway, even with the locks and sell them for parts. It won't really prevent theft but would only increase ewaste.
- badcppdev 4y ago
  Are you sure? Seems like the market for spare parts would be saturated pretty quickly and the incentive to thieves would be reduced.
- AstixAndBelix 4y ago
  selling something for parts (which implies it will be used to repair other devices) does not sound ewaste-y so me
- jen20 4y ago
  They don’t, though. As cited in the last discussion about this, the theft rate for Apple devices is much lower than ones which are usable by criminals.
- octacat 4y ago
  Many parts of new devices are serial number locked or soldered (or both). Makes the repairs hard though.
lwkl 4y ago
> Which is a pretty bad program, reusing is always better than recycling. Apple will just scrap it into basic elements: metals, maybe lithium. They have a refurbished program so they definitely don't just scrap devices you trade in. Maybe they even scrap some devices for parts. In the server space this is normal. HP would regularly send us refurbished replacement parts for repairs (this is also one of the reason why they want the replaced parts back).
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Louis Rossmann says they shred them and recycle the raw materials so that nobody can resell for repair.
  - bzzzt 4y ago
    Louis Rossman built a business/cult around criticising everything Apple does for exposure and is not a credible source of unbiased information about Apple's policies.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
      https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... > Apple rejects current industry best practices by forcing the recyclers it works with to shred iPhones and MacBooks so they cannot be repaired or reused—instead, they are turned into tiny shards of metal and glass.
      - lwkl 4y ago
        Yeah I never argued that they don’t shred some of the devices. They probably refurbish part of the returns, take parts they need and shred the rest. This is also what’s written on the agreement in the screenshot of this article but they don’t mention it in the article. I don’t live in the US but in Switzerland you have to get the customers approval to refurbish and sell hardware that you take back from customers. This is probably similar in the US.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
> Apple will just scrap… False: for just one counterexample, Apple employees receive refurbs from trade-in as work machines. (Source: First hand experience of years).
- octacat 4y ago
  cool, in this case. OK, they have refurbs on their site: https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished Though something like 2015 year models are not listed.
- acdha 4y ago
  To be honest, I really like that policy: a software developer using a machine which is a couple of years old isn’t going to be as cavalier about performance and the hardware engineers would get a good idea about durability issues.
captainmuon 4y ago
What if the previous owner lost their account, is not reachable, or died? Ideally you should be able to take such a locked device to some official place, like a town hall, and they should be able to look up the previous owner. If they are deceased or they confirm that they no longer want the device, then after checking IDs and so on that office should be able to start the process to unlock the device. (That same department could give you recourse if your house burns down and you loose all your digital accounts, or you are locked out of Google unfairly.) Our civil institutions have not really kept up with technology here. Edit: Of course I wouldn't give government the capability to decrypt anybodys device or something! Just have an organisation that's purpose is to clarify ownership, and wipe and reuse devices so they don't end up as in a landfill. I don't really trust the vendor alone to optimize for reusing used devices.
- mvanbaak 4y ago
  If you can prove you legally obtained the locked apple device, apple can unlock it for you. So this is a solved problem
  - bzzzt 4y ago
    Being given an old MacBook (by the original owner) is legal, but if you don't have a receipt Apple won't do a thing...
    - mvanbaak 4y ago
      That original owner can simply remove the macbook from their appleid and the whole thing is solved, even if the macbook is already in your hands.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  No, this shouldn’t be the case at all. Set this up with your family members if you want this to happen when you die. Give them your 1Password login and recovery keys or something. I do not want anyone, least of all city hall to be able to unlock my stuff under any circumstance, including the one where I’m dead.

neogodless 4y ago

Previous discussion (original Vice article, referenced within this one): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34504752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34504752 2 days ago, 410 comments

onphonenow 4y ago

The reduction in iPhone theft after activation lock was remarkable in the Bay Area. Did the person writing the article confirm none of these were stolen? Owners can now remove devices via web site I think. So if folks are saying these are just broken, have owner turn off activation lock

Maxburn 4y ago
Typical clickbait title, my main takeaway was; this security actually works that well? Sign me up. Give the original owner 30 days and if no response unlock it and let the thieves win? Uh, no I don't think so. It's not a far stretch to think everything got stolen and the owner is now locked out of their complete digital life.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  > the owner is now locked out of their complete digital life. Everything what? Do laptop theves also usually steal your sticky note with password?
  - BizarreByte 4y ago
    Losing a phone is more serious than a laptop for most people in a world of enforced 2fa.
    - Maxburn 4y ago
      And it really isn't that far fetched that both your phone and laptop got stolen. Maybe they were in the same bag etc.
abeppu 4y ago
> Owners can now remove devices via web site I think. So if folks are saying these are just broken, have owner turn off activation lock For this to work and for the device to _see_ that it has been removed from an account requires that even in it's locked that it must be able to start up and allow the person with physical access to at least configure some network details right?

rafaelturk 4y ago

Or, maybe all those Macs were actually stolen..

selykg 4y ago

Regarding Find My Mac and the various locks that can cause. Does anyone have advice on a business case for this? I'm planning on switching our staff over to MacBooks this year and would love to understand the pros and cons of users using their own Apple ID versus a company provided one. We work remotely, so that could possibly complicate things. The last thing I need is a former staff member setting up Find My Mac and locking it to their Apple ID then leaving the company.

Xylakant 4y ago
This is one of the reasons we've switched over to an MDM solution. If you set it up correctly, the MDM can unlock the Mac, regardless of the apple ID used.
pc86 4y ago
We use macs at my job, there is MDM software available. It's clearly tagged with a sticker on the back, which I assume goes back to some entry in the MDM software, and even though I use a personal Apple ID (I created a new one for this purpose but same end effect) I have no doubt they could press a button to brick the machine until it makes its way back to them if they really had to.
- selykg 4y ago
  Awesome, that is probably the direction I need to head then. I have another company doing the general infrastructure, but I get to be the one deciding the rules. Trying to find the right balance between giving people a little freedom but not so much they hang me, or the company.
morpheuskafka 4y ago
I believe your MDM solution should be able to set up a corporate bypass for this as well as allow you to remotely locate the device: https://docs.jamf.com/jamf- https://docs.jamf.com/jamf- now/documentation/Using_Activation_Lock_Bypass.html Another approach is to just let employees keep or buy out their laptop when they leave as a benefit. The cost of a MacBook isn't that huge relative to a tech salary.

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

If it makes my laptop useless to be stolen and protects my personal information and finances I'd choose them being sent to the landfill over second hand market. None of this is an issue if its actually real second hand.

philliphaydon 4y ago
Apparently the laptops are given to a recycler to be destroyed by an institution. He’s trying to refurb and sell. https://twitter.com/rdklinc/status/1617541547469193217 https://twitter.com/rdklinc/status/1617541547469193217 > Wrong -- it means that 1000 of these devices were dumped from an institution to a recycler without even bothering to log out first. And these apathetic institutions don't return calls when asked to unlock because they want the machines destroyed.
- chongli 4y ago
  Isn't this just a case of "buyer beware" for the recycler? If the machines haven't been properly erased so that they can have ownership transferred then the recyclers should refuse to accept them. On the other hand, if the original owners want the machines actually destroyed and not resold then I don't see the problem here.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    On the third hand, they're a recycler. It's unfortunate these Macs can't be reused, but I imagine the Recycler got these for free or bought them and paid scrap metal prices, not "we'll resell this" prices.
    - psychphysic 4y ago
      I disagree. I think apple should run a refurb but they wouldn't as that would depress their retail price. The devices are recycled just for parts. Even the motherboard will have parts removed and reused. It's a lot more work than flipping the laptop on eBay.

fmajid 4y ago

As others pointed out, most likely stolen, although one legitimate case would be computers from a bankruptcy where the IT department was laid off and did not wipe the machines. It would be good for Apple to have a bounty program to take the machines back and reunite them with the owner, possibly paying a reward to the finder. If the finder is the thief, they'd be taking a big risk of being fingered and arrested.

dijit 4y ago
I saw someone on Tiktok complaining about this and they said that the laptops came from a company. But the iCloud lock very clearly showed an @outlook.com email address, which would be absolutely bizarre for a company that's recycling a bundle of 50 or so laptops.
- scohesc 4y ago
  You'd be surprised at the amount of companies that cheap out on MDM solutions - it's easier to keep track of a bunch of outlook icloud accounts than it is to get a mac and set up MDM to some companies. Not saying it's right, but it's been done before - likely because you have an IT department that's exclusively Windows-based and you have a creative department that wants all Apple products... Either ignorance, cheapness, or unwillingness to learn.

newaccount2021 4y ago

[dead]

kayodelycaon 4y ago

> If you’re selling a device, you can’t just wipe out the drive and reinstall the operating system. Yeah. Sure. You can’t wipe the drive on an M1 and have the machine still boot. Reinstalling the OS doesn’t erase the data volume. You have to use Erase All Content and Settings. Apple documents the process pretty clearly. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212749 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212749

lelandfe 4y ago
And, even more directly, "What to do before you sell, give away, or trade in your Mac": https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 ...but if you forget to do that stuff, the Mac will indeed be unusable by the purchaser.
- mlyle 4y ago
  The interesting part about all of this to me is that this has been no-win for Apple. When they didn't have measures like this on the iPhone and Mac, they were lambasted by local police and DAs for not doing anything about theft. Now they have it, and it's causing otherwise useful devices to be rendered useless. There's going to have to be a very finely-crafted compromise to be usable, enable reselling when the original owner has forgotten or is unable to do things, and prevents theft. They've made some strides towards this but cases where MDM devices are liquidated but not de-enrolled are still problematic.
  - bakugo 4y ago
    > they were lambasted by local police and DAs for not doing anything about theft. No, they weren't, they just want you to think they were. They're not special vs other computer manufacturers in this context. > and it's causing otherwise useful devices to be rendered useless This is a win for them. They don't want you reselling devices, they want you to throw your old devices in the trash and buy brand new ones.
    - judge2020 4y ago

bakugo 4y ago

No surprise to see the majority on this website defending Apple's production of massive amounts of e-waste for the sake of "security and privacy" because that's that the marketing tells them and they don't actually understand the topic at all.

judge2020 4y ago
Less security (a small-time attacker isn't going to break the encryption) and more reduction/prevention of theft. These Macs end up in recycling centers because thieves know they'll get banned/a strike from eBay if they sell an activation locked device to a customer and that customer complains to the site, so the recycling centers end up being the ones trying to resell/reuse the devices only when most of the ones they get are from thieves (or, as it turns out, IT departments that don't disassociate MDM).
tzs 4y ago
It's not "massive amounts of e-waste". There are a couple cases to consider. 1. Individual sales of used devices to individual buyers. You only get e-waste in this case if (a) the seller doesn't realize they need to unlock the device first, and (b) they buyer doesn't realize that the device needs to be unlocked by the seller, and (c) once the buyer receives the device and notices it needs to be unlocked (which they will notice the first time they try to use it) the buyer cannot make an arrangement with the seller to unlock it. This should be very rare, because even if the seller doesn't realize the device is locked they are probably going to realize that they have plenty of personal data on it they need to erase first, and are going to Google something like "wipe Mac before selling" or "erase Mac before selling" and the first result is going to be Apple's "What to do before you sell, give away, or trade in your Mac" article. 2. Sales to entities that deal in used computers. Similar analysis to #1, except in this case the buyer definitely should know about how locking works and the need to ensure that the seller unlocks it. If the seller cannot ensure it is unlocked the buyer should offer a lot less money. The difference in value between an unlocked device and a locked one is large, so the seller should be willing to unlock it. We should then only get e-waste in the case where the seller cannot unlock it. If the seller cannot unlock it because they legitimately owned it but somehow forgot the necessary credentials, they can get Apple to unlock it if they can show Apple proof of legitimate ownership. Corporate sellers tend to keep purchase records for these kind of things so this should be no problem. Individual owners often don't keep such records, but the number of individuals selling used Apple devices who have forgotten their credentials is very likely quite low.

philliphaydon 4y ago

https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-advocate-urges-apple-to-let-resellers-bypass-security-protocols https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/24/right-to-repair-a... > However, he neglects to mention that Apple already has a process to do this for legally-obtained products. > The process is very simple. If a user has purchased an Apple product through means that will produce a receipt, like through eBay, users can request Activation Lock to be removed. All the user has to do is navigate to Apple Support and provide a receipt as proof. > The problem Bumstead is likely running into is MDM or mobile device management. Apple will not unlock products that were previously part of an MDM system that's still attached. So devices sent to a recycling center to be destroyed are being picked up and resold. So this whole thing seems like a non issue.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
I would note that a legal way to get a laptop is to have it given to you. Not every transaction that transfers ownership entails a receipt from a corporation or even the exchange of money.
- xoa 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    think these discussions can be higher quality if you spend a minute thinking through your hot takes and doing a bit of research. In this case, > > if a device is given to you, why can't you have the person giving it to you (assuming they're the legitimate owner obviously) remove activation lock if they forgot? Because it creates too much friction at the point of transfer. Decryption security should be handled in a way that the decouples user data from the device itself. There will always be theft. The impact that we have on the planet is something we can no longer afford to ignore. This isn't an issue of turning off our brains. We have two problems we have an issue with theft and how security mechanisms that are tied directly to the device strongly prevents reuse and resale.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

This is a feature not a bug.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I once factory reset my Google Nexus 6 and sold it on eBay only to find out they needed my credentials! For a time, before factory resetting, you needed to remove your account from the phone. I had no idea.

graderjs 4y ago

Owners need to unlink their device before sale, and buyers need to verify that before purchase. This is not Apple's problem to serve.

_cenw 4y ago

This is also institutions using them wrong. You're supposed to enroll these things into DEP, which is annoying to shut up (boot into recovery, enable rw on system partition, block deviceenrollment.apple.com via hosts, turn system integrity back on), but at worst the user will be asked to enroll their device every 4 hours.

fprog 4y ago

I found a pair of AirPods a while back and wanted to return them to their owner. They must be associated with an Apple ID, so I reached out to Apple and asked if they’d help me get in touch. They said no, and advised me to file a police report. I wonder why they have this policy? They have all the necessary information to facilitate a conversation. Heck, with services like Hide My Email, they could even keep the identities of each party private.

judge2020 4y ago
Is it hard to imagine the thief themselves using this to extort someone if they want their airpods back, or use that contact info to phish the owner for their Apple ID password?
mproud 4y ago
Nah, AirPods can’t be forcibly activation locked. So, yes, they can be taken and used by someone else. (But they’re a low cost item.) Anyway, Apple has decided there are only two ways to determine the owner: 1. Find My Activation Lock 2. Original Proof of Purchase

dvdkon 4y ago

Where I live, e-waste recycling is very (over)regulated, so I can see a way out of this problem that doesn't take away from the unprofitability of stealing Apple devices. If Apple allows officially-registered e-waste recyclers (which can't pay more than scrap value for devices) to send unlock requests, they can then sell them on, but thieves won't get anything out of it, barring some grand e-waste conspiracy. I personally don't like this system, I don't want any third party to have this kind of control over my device, but I have to admit that it's a system that works today and does its job, and with one small-ish tweak it could be even better.

judge2020 4y ago
> but thieves won't get anything out of it, barring some grand e-waste conspiracy. A conspiracy isn't required for this to increase theft. Recyclers could start advertising maybe $50-100 per Macbook if they can guarantee they'll be able to sell each mac people bring in. Next thing you know, people start stealing more of them since there's now a middleman that pays out enough per device and doesn't ask questions like "did you steal these" or "why are all of the Apple IDs different". The only way this would work is if the program had the e-waste centers submit a photo ID of the person that brought the product to match against the current Apple ID name and address.
- dvdkon 4y ago
  That's true, but if e-waste recycling is regulated (by the government or a private entity) so that the recyclers can't pay more than scrap value, that would require a conspiracy of the recycler and a third party.

nottorp 4y ago

Last time I bought an used Apple device i checked icloud/activation lock with the seller before paying for it. Guess that's what the resellers should do as well. If it's done remotely, just pay after verifying or refuse to buy. Of course that cuts into their profit margins but it's not like used Apple thingies are particularly cheap...

mproud 4y ago

Or, you know, people can remove the Find My before they sell it. Because any other loophole will be taken advantaged of.

ryandrake 4y ago

I can’t believe the HN consensus on this one! A system that relies on the original owner to perform some incantation or the device is e-waste? Really, that’s the best Apple could do? I sympathize with the resellers here. Often times the original owner cannot be contacted. Maybe they are dead and the machine came form an estate sale. Maybe it was sold on consignment or something. Maybe the original owner is just very difficult to find. I bought a MacBook off an eBay seller, and had to deal with this shit. It took the seller forever but by some miracle he was able to track down and contact the original owner so he could unlock it. Without this hassle, a perfectly good computer would have been e-waste in a landfill somewhere. Frustrating the legitimate second hand market and the ecological impact of all this waste is a high price to pay for mere anti-theft. Companies are very eager to kill the secondary market for their goods, and accepting this scheme plays into Apple’s hands.

Veen 4y ago
The 'mere' anti-theft and privacy benefits are way more important to me than the second-hand market. Plus, the difficulty caused by the anti-theft mechanism is straightforward to overcome provided the seller is legitimate.
- dns_snek 4y ago
  Why should onus be on legitimate refurbishers and resellers to prove that the device is not stolen (extremely hard) rather than on the victim to report the device as stolen within a 30-90 day grace period (trivial)? After this grace period the device would wipe the data encryption keys and unlock itself. A simple solution that protects both sides, it just so happens to conflict with Apple's earnings goals.
  - Veen 4y ago
    When I spend several thousand pounds on a laptop, I expect its features, including its privacy features, to maximally benefit me, not some hypothetical refurbisher who I, quite honestly, don't give a shit about.

JKCalhoun 4y ago

When I worked at Apple, I had used an iPad for testing. I ended up also creating an icloud test-account for it. Some year or so later I got an email from another employee within Apple (who now had the device) asking that I sign out of the device so they could wipe it. Wow, I couldn't remember my iCloud test-account password. I was surprised there wasn't some low-level way to just wipe the device. (I did eventually guess the account password.)

judge2020 4y ago
You can always wipe via putting it in restore mode, but if it's activation locked, you won't be able to get past setup unless you have the password. This prevents theft even if the thief knows how to hold the buttons in the right order to restore the device to factory settings.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Yeah, I assumed there was a restore mode. But honestly, it changes so much from generation to generation that I have stopped trying to keep track of what you can/can't do with iHardware.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    Recovery mode is still relatively easy, it's DFU mode that has been vastly complicated. It seems the timing has to be just right since it took me about 30 minutes of trying to get my 12 in DFU mode due to something that wasn't going away from a regular recovery mode ipsw restore.

deafpolygon 4y ago

Wouldn’t that cause more electronic waste?

a_vanderbilt 4y ago

Sounds like they are using the concern for recycling to mask their frustration with Apple's Activation Lock making stolen goods worthless. If they obtained the laptops legitimately, they would have known better to remove the devices from user's accounts before accepting them.

lowbloodsugar 4y ago

>which means that the second owner needs to be able to work with the original owner to get the request fulfilled. In some instances, that’s difficult or impossible to do. Good. Let’s not pretend that theft isn’t a problem.

60secs 4y ago

This seems like an intentional feature to sell more MacBooks.

egberts1 4y ago

TL;DR: Apple M1 MacBook have near-zero resale value.

kylehotchkiss 4y ago

Activation lock can be disabled with find my on another device sharing the iCloud account, can’t it? So are these repair shops not even calling old trade in contacts to request removing the device? Because it’s stolen or something?

balls187 4y ago

The original vice article had a key fact that is missing from the macworld article. The issue is the laptops are received by recyclers in an ill-gotten manner. Companies were sending thousands of laptops to be destroyed and instead the ended up in recyclers who are attempting to wipe and then resell them, which is why recyclers could not get the original legal owners to remove the activation lock. If the recycler had an agreement to wipe and reuse the machines, and the activation lock prevented it, then those thousands of machines should be shipped back to the company to dispose of, along with a bill for the shipping cost, and time.

dns_snek 4y ago
The original Vice article[1] makes no such claim. I'm assuming you drew that conclusion from the following quote: > Often the previous owners are corporations or schools who buy and sell the machines in bulk and aren't interested in helping recyclers or refurbishers unlock them. "Previous owners do not return phone calls, and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed, so it is critical we have a solution that does not depend on the previous owner approving,” Bumstead said. But if you check his website[1], the terms of sale make it clear that devices are intended for resale: > Although RDKL, Inc., always attempts to erase hard drives and remove personal data before a device is sold to another party, RDKL, Inc., cannot guarantee that all traces of the seller's identity have been permanently removed, and it is therefore the seller's responsibility to remove personal data from a device before selling it to RDKL, Inc. Why would he pay for devices that he would be contractually obligated to destroy, at his own expense? [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activation-lock-right-to-repair https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgybq7/apple-macbook-activat... [2] https://www.rdklinc.com/sell-terms https://www.rdklinc.com/sell-terms
- balls187 4y ago
  Yes, I inferred that by having machines that were thought to be destroyed, the PC refurbisher got them in violation of an agreement. > Why would he pay for devices that he would be contractually obligated to destroy, at his own expense? That assumes RDKL was the original service provider chosen to destroy the macbooks; it's also probable that RDKL purchased those dumped machines from another service provider, the latter collecting not only the fee to destroy the machine but revenue for reselling usable machines.

dmtroyer 4y ago

“millions”, huh? I see hyperbole like this and I just skip the article and move on.

madjam002 4y ago

I just bought a second hand Mac which is due to arrive and am worried about this. If I set up the device with my Apple ID and enable Find My, is there any way for the original owner to lock me out afterwards even after I’ve associated the device with my own Apple ID?