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Sexual loneliness: A neglected public health problem?

• wpwpwpw 4y ago
  reading these comments and asking myself if any woman reads HN
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• majikaja 4y ago
  Is it possible for a topic like this to be discussed in an informed manner on a site like HN? We're all wealthy elites dating supermodels after all, right?
• majikaja 4y ago
  I think the problem is that there aren't enough attractive 18-25 year old women to date all the average 18-80 year old men.
  • bmn__ 4y ago
    Not a problem in reality. Men will gladly settle for what they can get.
    • majikaja 4y ago
      I think men's obsession about this topic needs to be treated in the same way drug addiction is. Flood the market with supply then complain about surplus? It's like watching a dog chase its own tail.
      • bmn__ 4y ago
        I can't remember having seen someone compare a basic human need (level 2 on the Maslow hierarchy) with drug addiction. What's next, addiction to nutrients and oxygen? Your thought is baffling to me, bordering on absurd. Also, the implication that the men who complain about surplus are responsible for flooding the market with supply is plain wrong. Literally no man chose to be born into this world.
        • majikaja 4y ago
          Hookups are not a need. Male users are the overwhelming majority of these apps. If not age limitations on female attractiveness, then the underlying problem is the intensity of men's compulsions compared to women.
          • bmn__ 4y ago
            > Hookups Careful, did you notice yourself shifting the goalpost? The article and accompanying discussion was about intimacy+sex, you just reduced this to casual sex. > are not a need. Factually wrong. This should prompt you to find out what the word need means, it's likely you have the wrong idea about it.
            • majikaja 4y ago
              I did consider your first point, but if serious relationships are the goal, just head to the local marriage agency. No shortage of women looking for a traditional provider. People asked for sexual liberation - this is the result.
• fennecfoxy 4y ago
  As a gay man (who, fortunately, doesn't have any issue with finding partners for casual "stress relief"), I agree that this is a definite issue. It seems the world has moved on in many ways and traditional roles/barriers are being broken down, but unfortunately not so much for this topic. I look at hetero friends of mine and it still seems to be the same old rat-race for them. Men get treated as disposable resources when it comes to dating/relationships. Sure, not all men; if you're pretty or wealthy or otherwise "useful" you'll do fine. But it seems very one-sided in that women do not need to do all that much in order to be desirable to someone (though perhaps not desirable to the type of people they want to meet specifically). It really just makes me so glad to be gay, and so sad to see men treated like they have no worth; you do have worth, every man, every woman, and every person in between. It's also incredibly unfortunate that many of the traits exhibited by "men who work in technology" are generally not seen as desirable by many women. I count myself as incredibly fortunate that I can easily meet other men who are into the same things; the only downside is obviously that: * there are fewer gay men available compared to the hetero pool * some (a large number really) of hetero guys will get aggressive to the point of violence if you flirt with them, so it's still very important to sound it out/gaydar someone.
• aehajdoi 4y ago
  Haven't incels been talking about this for years?
  • wesleywt 4y ago
    Yeah, but it is their response to the problem that is problematic.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
      That's one-sided view. Obviously the sexual market disposition is PROBLEMATIC to some(majority?) of men. Then minority of men will create PROBLEMATIC situation for the rest of society.
    • PaulHoule 4y ago
      What is the right response? For a long time the response of men in suffering has been to be quiet, turn anger inward and suffer from suicide, heart disease, drug addiction and other deadly forms of despair. I'd agree that inceldom is toxic (one of my son's friends fell under the spell of an incel Youtuber and dumped my son as a friend because my son is taller than him and could possibly "heightmog" him.) but the average man has never had a social movement that cares about his plight. Reading early feminists such as Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan and such I get the impression that their basic rhetorical strategy is to compare the top 0.1% man to the median woman but then implicitly comparing the agency of the average woman to a man who might not have a lot (there is a war on... time to go to war and die) This conflation of power and gender is structural to discussions of "sexual harassment" which seems to almost always be up and down power hierarchies. Hypothetically it could so sideways and sometimes it must, but you hear about it so little that I think there is some mechanism that suppresses it from being talked about. In this old book https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 nearly every case study involves a woman having an affair with a man who is above her in some power hierarchy but this goes unmentioned by the author.
• honkler 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • dtx1 4y ago
    There's a difference between sexual loneliness and being an Incel. Incels believe the world owes them sex and they are entitled to it. People suffering from sexual loneliness aren't all incels and to lump together both groups does a disservice to non-incel people that suffer from this.
    • BurningFrog 4y ago
      "Incel" just means "INvoluntary CELibate". It's a diverse group with diverse opinions.
      • dtx1 4y ago
        That's just factually wrong. Even a quick read of Wikipedia would tell you that. > An incel (/ˈɪnsɛl/ IN-sel, an abbreviation of "involuntary celibate"[1]) is a member of an online subculture of people who define themselves as unable to get a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one.[2][3][4] Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment and hatred, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against women and sexually active people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel That's almost like arguing Nazis are a diverse group with diverse opinions because some hate black people, others hate jews.
• itsmemattchung 4y ago
  > One possible aid for sexual loneliness might come from online dating apps such as Tinder. In theory, online dating could provide an efficient way to find a partner. However, online dating divides people heavily into winners and losers – perhaps even more so than traditional dating. While women can get attention from thousands of men online in just a few hours, men are lucky if anyone is interested in them My wife doesn't get it ... I often tell her that if both her and I signed up for a dating app, her inbox would be flooded with messages. Yet, if I were to message hundreds of women, I might get lucky and get a handful of responses. She thinks I'm exaggerating ...
  • 71a54xd 4y ago
    I have a healthy dating life outside of apps, but yeah - I think women understanding how difficult and dramatically different online dating is for men in comparison to women will never truly be accepted or taken seriously by women.
    • RationPhantoms 4y ago
      The best way I've heard to explain the difference is men are dying of thirst in a desert and woman are dying of thirst in an ocean.
      • Zigurd 4y ago
        I hope the depth of that analogy is intentional.
    • BurningFrog 4y ago
      I think women get it when they experience the same thing in their 40s.
      • bt4u 4y ago
        [dead]
    • dashdot 4y ago
• f-securus 4y ago
  Legalize prostitution and regulate safety and perhaps incels would build confidence and learn to socialize a bit from paid sexual interactions? I'm kind of ignorant to the subject of what is the cause of 'sexual loneliness' but I believe the world's oldest profession shouldn't be pushed into the shadows as that causes more problems than it prevents.
  • seydor 4y ago
    same things are happening in countries with legal prostitution
  • foldr 4y ago
    Prostitution is already legal in lots of countries. I’m not sure that there’s any evidence that it makes a huge amount of difference to this problem.
    • ugh123 4y ago
      Are there any studies linking legal prostitution with less "sexual loneliness"?
    • snowpid 4y ago
      "lots of countries" To my knowledge only Germany.
      • fxtentacle 4y ago
        Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Greece, Turkey, Senegal, Nevada in the US, and various Australian states
        • LorenPechtel 4y ago
          *Parts of* Nevada--it's county choice in the rural areas (my impression is about half say yes), prohibited at the state level in the urban areas.
      • foldr 4y ago
• klyrs 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • altairprime 4y ago
    Resolve the economic equality issues that halted wage growth in the 80s, so that the non-executives see pay increases matching inflation; and cap tuitions for all schools to be affordable at local minimum wage rates, to stop the disparity between white-collar and blue-collar workers from driving men to quit paid work.
  • RajT88 4y ago
    > Lol religious conservatives. This is the solvable part. They don't run the country; they're a minority. > Encourage men to have sex with men? Religion is a fig leaf here. The dislike of LGBTQ+ people is retroactively justified by religion, but it just isn't about religion. If it really was about religion, there'd be a lot more weird hills they'd be dying on, since most of the Anti-Gay stuff is in the Old Testament, and there's a lot of stuff in the OT that they seem perfectly comfortable ignoring. (For example: Crustaceans are not allowed as a food, Leviticus 11:9-12) "They just don't like gay people" is too simplistic as well. My theory is that gay men, as well as trans women are a subversion of traditional gender roles which is why conservatives get worked up about it. Trans men and lesbians of course get some ire too from conservatives, but it feels like an afterthought.
    • wpietri 4y ago
      > My theory is that gay men, as well as trans women are a subversion of traditional gender roles which is why conservatives get worked up about it Exactly. The traditional gender roles come out of the tradition of patriarchal exploitation of women and subordinate men. The extreme version of this is seen in groups like the FLDS [1] and make the dynamics more apparent. But it's the same basic deal even on the softer complementarian end of things. The far right will talk about how gay marriage is a threat to marriage in general, and in one sense I agree with them: functional marriages without rigid gender roles demonstrate that their conception of marriage is limited and grimly unequal. [1] Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven is a good place to get the flavor of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Banner_of_Heaven
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  I love how the article compares the unequal distribution of sex partners with the unequal distribution of wealth, because in my opinion that might be part of the cause. I would predict that being able to afford a nice apartment in a good area close to date locations will easily 10x your sex chances. There have been other studies about young men struggling to find jobs that pay well enough for them to become financially independent, and there's been a lot of discussions about Hikkomori and the Japanese Grasseaters movement, which is basically older guys that refuse to move out of their parent's home. My overall impression is that a bad economy and bad job market makes it difficult for young men to become independent and that makes it extremely difficult for them to become sexually active. Because despite all progress with regards to gender equality, the overwhelming majority of girls prefers to date a guy who can afford a nice shirt and a nice appartment.
  • honkler 4y ago
    technological advancement enabled dispropotinal wealth accumulation, also enabled disproportional partner accumulation. So the underlying problem is that industrial revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
    • fxtentacle 4y ago
      Excellent summary :)
    • recuter 4y ago
      Have I got news for you about the disproportional partner accumulation situation preindustrial revolution..
      • fxtentacle 4y ago
        But weren't harems typically reserved for the unimaginably wealthy, even back then?
  • akudha 4y ago
    I happen to catch part of conversation between two young, very good looking female colleagues of mine back when I still used to go to office (same cubicle, sometimes I heard things even though I didn't mean to). They were disappointed that they couldn't get invites to some party where rich wall street type guys were going to, aka "catches" (their words, not mine). The funny thing is, the very same office was filled with nice, young, smart, good looking men. Just not rich enough. This is just an anecdote, I am not saying all women go for rich dudes, neither am I stereotyping. But yeah, being able to afford nice things in life is a significant advantage in dating. I suppose being rich is advantageous in everything
• eyphka 4y ago
  > The National Survey of Family Growth data shows that in 2002 the most sexually active top 20 % of American heterosexual men had 12 lifetime sex partners while the top 5 % had 38 partners.3 Ten years later, in 2012, the most sexually active top 20 % now reported 15 lifetime sex partners and the top 5 % of men reported 50 lifetime sex partners. Year | 2002 | 2012 --------------------------------- Top 20% # Partners | 12 | 15 --------------------------------- Top 5% # Partners | 38 | 50 Wow - so what does 2022 look like?
  • astrange 4y ago
    Did anyone ask the top 5 % how low their standards are?
  • tristor 4y ago
    > Wow - so what does 2022 look like? Hasn't been reported yet, but some simple extrapolation would expect top 20% to drop to 8 lifetime partners and top 5% to increase to 80 lifetime partners.
• frognumber 4y ago
  I am happy about the study, since I think this is underresearched. However, I think Gini Index this is a horrible way to look at it. Regular sex is important, but regularly switching sex partners isn't really how I want to live my life. I don't want 50 lifetime partners, 38, 15, or even 12. I wanted one. That I have more than one is a sign of failure of a relationship each time, which is not a success. If I had my choice, I'd: 1. go back to a 1930-style relationship, were I would have married early and stayed together. 2. We'd have clear roles, although not the sexist, dated ones from 1930. I'm very flexible, so I don't much care what they are. I just don't want conflict over who does what, re-negotiation of everything, and clear roles eliminate a lot of room for conflict. With some permanent, clear division of responsibility, we both know what's required of a good partner, and if each of us focuses on that, things work out. 3. As a cultural norm, divorce would only happen for fault (abuse, infidelity, etc.). Both sides would try to be good spouses. 4. Extended families would live together and support each other (which also keeps an eye on things not going south). I'm not trying to impose that on anyone else, except for a research methodology to account for people like me.
  • nicky0 4y ago
    "Regular sex is important" - in what way?
    • frognumber 4y ago
      I find my mental health is significantly better with regular sex. Studied bear this out too. For me, it drastically reduces stress levels.
  • ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    So the problem about 1930s-style relationships, is that a lot more of them were held together by fear and taboo than people would care to admit. Abusive relationships usually aren't known by the public. Someone might try to leave an abusive relationship, but be shamed by the public for not being "committed enough" or even get excommunicated from their church. I'm now happily married, and I hope to remain so for life. But the difference between the 1930s and now is that not only am I aware that if I'm a bad partner, she can leave me, but I accept that as a reasonable recourse. Long-term marriage is absolutely possible today, but people who want that have to work for it. It's not automatic anymore because people are less scared of being branded for leaving a bad situation. "Roles" is a very loaded term, but I think there's a definite place for understanding who is handling what. The key thing is understanding roles change, and in a good marriage, both partners will take whatever role serves the family unit. They shouldn't be attached to the gender of the partner, and can move as needs change.
• wpietri 4y ago
  I am a regular reader of Reddit's "Am I the Asshole" and the sheer number of terrible boyfriends/husbands is jaw-dropping. And that's probably always been true, but what has changed is the extent to which women now have agency through having decent jobs and not being social pariahs if they're not married and pregnant by 22. The stuff my grandmother put up with just doesn't fly today. So if the content of AITA is any guide, we could solve a lot of these problems just by training the bottom quartile of men in the basics. Hygiene. Being a good roommate. Being a good friend. Being a good economic partner. Etc, etc. There appear to be a lot of guys out there who want to go from having mommy do everything while they play video games to having a bang maid [1] who does the same. It's no wonder they're having a harder and harder time getting any. [1] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bang%20maid https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bang%20maid
  • some_random 4y ago
    I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this but AITA is about as credible as newspaper advice columns and 4chan greentexts, that is to say not at all.
    • MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
      Rage bait, karma farming and creative writing exercises all rolled into one!
    • LesZedCB 4y ago
      i did pretty well in a brief experiment of using chatGPT to write responses to new posts
    • wpietri 4y ago
      Oh, sure, a lot of the posts are made up. But a lot of them aren't. And most of the replies grounded in personal experience appear to be sincere, as they tend to come from established accounts with consistent histories, at least when I look. But in some sense, that doesn't matter, because even popular fiction serves as an important mirror for popular concerns. I hear enough verifiable real-world stories of entitled, lazy male partners to know that it's not all fiction. I think the extent to which things get upvoted on AITA is a pretty good indicator of popular concern. And a lot of replies clearly come from people who, whatever the truth of the original post, have lived through similar things.
• tru3_power 4y ago
  Does anyone think this a lot of this is hormone driven? I know there are studies that show sperm counts are dropping due to chemicals, but I haven’t been able to find anything regarding testosterone levels. I’m not arguing that having higher testosterone will make women more attracted to men, but having higher testosterone undoubtedly gives you more energy/confidence to succeed in life (which probably makes you more attractive to women).
  • seydor 4y ago
    no , unless you mean that increasing testosterone will make men oppress women again so they can have more equitable distribution among themselves. "This" is the result of max level sexual competition. If anything, if it were hormonal it would affect disproportionally more the high-partner-count males compared to low-partner, which would flatten the distribution
  • poszlem 4y ago
    Well, there are some interesting papers suggesting that women on the pill prefer less masculine men. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/03/study-women-on-birth-control-pills-prefer-less-masculine-men/274464/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/03/study-wom... Personally that is one of my personal favourite, perhaps not conspiracy theories, but a "wacko" theories that can explain a lot of our modern world.
    • GaryNumanVevo 4y ago
      By interesting papers you mean "paper" singular and it was conducted at a science center with no control. > Target participants were 170 male-female couples (aged between 18 and 73, mean = 35.8, SD = 11.3). All couples reported to be heterosexual. We collected data and images from 333 couples who were visitors to a science exhibition centre and who responded positively to a face-to-face invitation to participate.
      • poszlem 4y ago
        That is just one paper about one facet of the issue. "Although this general idea and the research looking into it is still in its infancy, the data that do exist suggest that the pill might influence who you’re attracted to, the dynamics of your relationships, the quality of your sex life, how jealous you are, how you respond to your partner’s face, how sexy you are to others, and your likelihood of getting a divorce." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23528282/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23528282/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21993500/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21993500/ https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(16)30022-1/pdf https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(16)30022-1/pd... https://www.scraigroberts.com/uploads/1/5/0/4/15042548/2010_cobey_paid.pdf https://www.scraigroberts.com/uploads/1/5/0/4/15042548/2010_... https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/5/767/1753384 https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/5/767/1753384 https://www.unm.edu/~gfmiller/cycle_effects_on_tips.pdf https://www.unm.edu/~gfmiller/cycle_effects_on_tips.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21993500/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21993500/
• zb3 4y ago
  The need itself is the problem, and it's really surprising noone looks at it this way. A drug that 'd make me completely asexual (with no orientation) is the real solution for me, as currently there's none available.
  • hcurtiss 4y ago
    Genuine question -- do eunuchs have sex drive?
    • zb3 4y ago
      According to Wikipedia, they might[0]. Note however that the procedure is not generally available, I can't just purchase chemical castration pills, which is a problem because it should be my choice. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration
    • bmn__ 4y ago
      Yes, but it is very much diminished in comparison with non-neutered men.
  • yamtaddle 4y ago
    There too was Cephalus the father of Polemarchus, whom I had not seen for a long time, and I thought him very much aged. He was seated on a cushioned chair, and had a garland on his head, for he had been sacrificing in the court; and there were some other chairs in the room arranged in a semicircle, upon which we sat down by him. [....] [Socrates:] And this is a question which I should like to ask of you who have arrived at that time which the poets call the “threshold of old age” —Is life harder towards the end, or what report do you give of it? [....] [Cephalus, after listing the ways others claim getting old sucks:] But this is not my own experience, nor that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet Sophocles, when in answer to the question, How does love suit with age, Sophocles —are you still the man you were? Peace, he replied; most gladly have I escaped the thing of which you speak; I feel as if I had escaped from a mad and furious master. His words have often occurred to my mind since, and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them. — Plato, The Republic, Book I (It's worth noting that some readings of this are that Socrates is giving Cephalus a little friendly ribbing by prompting him to talk about this, Socrates [the character, or the man, either way] actually being around the same age as Cephalus in this dialog and still plainly being far more vigorous and eagerly engaging with life) ------------ I don't need a lover, no, no, no The wretched beast is tame I don't need a lover So blow out the flame — Leonard Cohen, "Leaving the Table", from his final album.
• ulizzle 4y ago
  Did everyone forget about the Seinfeld episode where George gets smarter when he foregoes sex altogether? Because that's how it works IRL
• jurassic 4y ago
  There are a lot of factors at play here. Porn is ubiquitous which reduces the number of people looking for real-life hookups to satisfy their immediate urges. Awareness of the health risks (STDs, etc) of having many partners has probably never been higher. And the economic stakes of an unwanted pregnancy are higher than they've ever been due to increasing restrictions on abortion. If porn were outlawed, contraception was free, and abortion was legal everywhere, I think you would see a lot more young people getting out there and having a good time.
  • zb3 4y ago
    Porn is ubiquitous which reduces the number of people looking for real-life hookups to satisfy their immediate urges Why is that a bad thing? For me the problem is the opposite - it might not completely satisfy it, but if it'd completely satisfy the urge, then wouldn't it be a good thing?
    • jurassic 4y ago
      The OP frames sexual loneliness as a problem. I don't think it's a huge leap to say porn is part of the reason why people are having less real-life sex. Morally I have no issue with it, but ease/speed/price are important factors in market behavior. It's why I'm more likely to flop down on the couch to watch Netflix than drive across town to watch a movie at the cinema, or listen to Spotify vs attend a live music performance. The cinema and the rock concert are probably better experiences, but streaming makes everything so easy and cheap I don't often seek out those experiences. Porn access as a causal explanation also helps explain why we see the same problem happening even in Nordic countries where access to abortion/contraception is not a problem and parental leave benefits are far superior to the US.
      • zb3 4y ago
        sexual loneliness as a problem This isn't the root problem though, its consequences are, including how one feels. It's why I'm more likely to flop down on the couch to watch Netflix than drive across town to watch a movie at the cinema So you pick the better option, right? That's why I asked my question, the problem can't be that a better option exists, it must be something else and it should be precisely stated. The cinema and the rock concert are probably better experiences, but streaming makes everything so easy and cheap I don't often seek out those experiences. So overall they're better only if you exclude their negative consequences.
• andrewclunn 4y ago
  You are not owed sex or intimacy. To men: want to be desired by other people? make yourself more desirable. As for women in this situation, that is largely self imposed because their sex drives are lower and they are often in denial about how their attractiveness declines with age, and are unable to adjust their expectations to match. In the modern dating / hookup culture young men and older women are the clear losers. Men are figuring this out and largely either going full anti-women "red pill rage" into "$!tches aint shit" using women when they're older or opting out all together. Women party it up when young, and are then shocked only when the "good times" start to end as younger ladies supplant them. The age old solution throughout the ages, has been to control female sexuality with shame (often enforced by other women). This is now considered unthinkable, despite the surge in single parent homes, massive decline in birth rates, increased loneliness and decreased happiness by all. So instead sex bots, prostitution, more welfare, and artificial wombs are promoted as the only politically tenable out. I think the future shall be inherited by the Amish, Mormons, and other such groups that have managed to find ways to maintain family units in opposition to modern culture. They're certainly the only ones breeding at above replacement levels. TLDR: in practice based religion beats out free love in providing more sex, without all the messy fatherlessness and STD problems to boot.
  • PaulHoule 4y ago
    And I guess you could say that nobody deserves to live in an safe environment free of violence, black people don't serve to not get beaten up by the cops, poor people don't deserve health care, nobody is owed a job in a non-toxic environment that doesn't kill them because of stress, etc. So often when people have problems that are hard to solve the answer is just "talk to the hand" at best.
    • andrewclunn 4y ago
      Even if one believes in forced labor in order to provide goods and services to those in need, are you really drawing some sort of parallel where people should be compelled to perform sexual favors for others? I mean one could be a full on communist and not think that state provided prostitution (where people would be assigned those jobs by the state) is ethical. Didn't think I'd see apologism for something akin to North Korea's "pleasure Squad" on Hacker News, but alright then.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• drgo 4y ago
  F***ing inequity… literally
  • treeman79 4y ago
    /sarcasm Well government likes equal outcomes. Perhaps a new department to ensure everyone is getting the same results regardless of gender, attractiveness, hygiene, etc.
• thwayunion 4y ago
  The article correctly identifies that lack of intimacy and relationships are serious problems, with sexual loneliness being a related comorbidity (if you will). The comments, so far, predictably drift toward "how do we get everyone laid?" Giving everyone access to sex will not solve sexual loneliness. And, solving (a lot of) sexual loneliness can be achieved without giving everyone access to sex. Anecdotally, I spent several years as part of the 5% mentioned in this article (lots of regular sex with several different women, most of whom I had very little in common with). After that, I spent several years having very little sex because my wife and I were living on opposite coasts. My experience of sexual loneliness during those two periods of my life were inversely correlated with the amount of sex I was actually having. Intimacy and relationship matters. Proposals like prostitution or nonmonogamy fundamentally misunderstand the problem.
  • FearlessNebula 4y ago
    Yeah everyone seems to be very focused on sex whereas to me the problem is not fostering intimate connections in the first place. We don’t have an epidemic of relationships that aren’t having sex, we’re having an epidemic of people who aren’t fostering those relationships and as a downstream byproduct they aren’t having sex. Pay a prostitute is a bandaid patch on the downstream problem, but it will never makeup for the loneliness hole of the upstream problem
    • dheera 4y ago
      I'm single and male, and personally I don't feel a "need" for sex. I do wish other less intrusive forms of intimacy e.g. hugs could be more legitimized between single people, though. Sometimes I see pictures of cats cuddling and just wonder why humans are so bad at engaging in simple, consensual comforts like that.
      • Jensson 4y ago
        Most animals are in heat just a small part of the time, humans are in heat all the time. Animals in heat behave a lot more like humans do regarding these things. Humans still have the genes to populate the earth, we haven't adapted to having a stable population yet where we don't optimize for maximum kids.
• Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  I am a handsome gay man and I can open up Grindr to pick todays solution to my sexual loneliness at any time. Sometimes I do, because my hormones and lust dictate my actions. Just invite someone over during home office and fornicate while I carefully listen to Slack sounds in the background. Generally all it lead to so far was the whole ABC of STDs and even more loneliness. Sex is incredibly overrated and I probably have more experience with it than the vast majority of all humans so I can say that with confidence. The only part of me that would miss it is are my uncontrollable lower animal brain areas and my misaligned pleasure/reward circuits. Let me repeat: Having lots of great sexual encounters with people you consider very attractive changes nothing in your life. Building and finding friendships, "true connections" and love does, but those generally do not need sex. At least a few of my (sex) dates turned into lasting friendships.
  • seydor 4y ago
    this is not solving anything though. people who end up with long-term lonenlines feel (rightly) practically excluded from society and STDs are not high in their concerns
    • Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      But sex does not make you feel less lonely.
  • allisdust 4y ago
    The problem is, the ones valuing it most are the ones getting it the least. My guess is that if they do end up getting it a lot, they might end up with the same conclusion as you.
• willmadden 4y ago
  I'm curious how this comment will go over ;). The answer is not "tinder" and it's not about "sexual loneliness". Pair bonding weakens as people age and accumulate more sexual partners. We actively encourage people to delay pair bonding - mainly by discouraging "high school sweethearts" from marrying, and instead promoting college and pursuing careers over building families. This leads to atomized, lonely individuals who realize later in life what they missed out on, but now with the odds of age stacked against them. Even if you do find your partner in college, you now have families in vastly different geographic areas with different histories and values, which weakens the support structure around that union. In the majority of cases this is not a positive thing for the couple. Pornography is also a problem, as it misdirects individuals' sex drive away from finding suitable partners. The pendulum needs to swing back towards more traditional values from when our societies were healthier and growing. Those values exist for a reason!
  • dangond 4y ago
    I also feel that we'd be better off as a society if we emphasized and encouraged building strong inter-personal relationships over "pursuing a career", but appealing to tradition isn't a great argument. Building a strong social sense of unity and cohesion is good enough for me. On the other hand, "those values exist for a reason" is just as convincing as "we got rid of those values for a reason". Our societies also grew a lot with the help of slavery and child labor, but I doubt you'd see that as a good reason to bring those back.
    • willmadden 4y ago
      >Our societies also grew a lot with the help of slavery and child labor I'm not advocating for slavery or child labor. I'm advocating for prioritizing healthy pair bonding and acknowledging that this is more likely to happen earlier in life. The "population crisis" in Japan and other countries in the West is self inflicted. We actively promote decisions that do not lead to healthy families for the majority of people. It's lead to a reproductive rate well below replacement levels and far, far too many single parent households. It's not a mystery.
• kingstoned 4y ago
  There is an interesting article comparing sex and income inequality: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/06/comparing-income-sex-redistribution.html https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/06/comparing-income-sex-... Also a good quote: “It's a fact...that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization . Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never. Some make love with dozens of women; others with none. It's what's known as 'the law of the market'...Economic liberalism is an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society. Sexual liberalism is likewise an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society.” ― Michel Houellebecq, Extension du domaine de la lutte
• throwaway_eufhf 4y ago
  It's not a good idea to construe every inequality as an injustice begging to be rectified. In this case as if every person was entitled to a fair share of sexual experience - but people's genitals aren't a commons, thank you very much.
• RicoElectrico 4y ago
  In a cruel paradox, I find talking to women who are already in a relationship much more enjoyable. They are more humble, open-minded and treat me as a real person, not means to an end or some necessary evil. Which boosts confidence a lot. Maybe 30 y.o. single women are so for a reason.
  • giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Maybe you're just not focused on how to get with them and they can pick on that, so are able to relax somewhat. Maybe you're single for a reason.
• newaccount2021 4y ago
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• 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  This is hilarious. They found that young men are having less sex, young women are not having less sex, and some young men are having way more sex. And they conclude the problem is "loneliness". No, dude, the problem is young men are increasingly not worth having sex with. This of course has precedence in the natural world. Not every male is always having sex. Most often, a smaller number of males that are considered the most desirable sire more children. It's a Darwin thing: you mate with the most successful of your species to carry the best genes and adapt to your environment better to survive longer. But it doesn't have to be that way. More males could simply become more attractive partners. Or more females could lower their standards (but honestly I think their standards have been low enough... I mean, have you seen my gender, next to its opposite?). Rather than treat sexual loneliness as some kind of unfortunate but normal condition, let's encourage these people to make themselves more attractive. And by attractive I mean the general concept of desirability, which encompasses the entire spectrum of the human condition, not just the body or some societal trope of gender norms.
  • amelius 4y ago
    It's also because men who are in a relationship are way more attractive to women than men who aren't or haven't been, regardless of other factors.
    • 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
      That... isn't indicated by the data. There would have to be a simultaneous increase in the number of men cheating on their SOs at the same time as a decrease in sex with single men, for.... no apparent reason.
  • throwaway6734 4y ago
    > I mean, have you seen my gender, next to its opposite? This is an incredibly sexist point of view. Cultural expectations for the role of women in society have been continuously expanded while nothing remotely similar has been done for men.
  • bmn__ 4y ago
    > No, dude, the problem is young men are increasingly not worth having sex with. That's some victim blaming if I've ever seen one. No, dude, the problem is not that men have changed, but societal circumstances have, and women just act according to the new environment they have been afforded. Increasing one's market value (desirability) works, but that's doctoring the symptoms instead of healing the root cause. It ceases working if everyone hears about the idea and does it.
• jacobsenscott 4y ago
  The classic formula for hooking up is time and proximity - throw people together in the same space and wait - people will start hooking up. No app can provide this - they are designed with the exact opposite scenario in mind. This is why people meet in high school (4 years)/college(4 years)/at the office (40 years). With the move to remote work in many places we've cut off the office part - where people had the most time to find a partner. What replaces that? Nearly everyone I know who is married met in one of those 3 places. I met my wife in the office before remote work was common (today we are both 100% remote).
  • pm90 4y ago
    > The classic formula for hooking up is time and proximity - throw people together in the same space and wait - people will start hooking up. No app can provide this - they are designed with the exact opposite scenario in mind. Yes, 100% this is correct. Proximity is everything. When people "bump" into each other frequently, they are more likely to start conversations, more likely to get to know each other, and naturally, hook up. This is why the "third place" concept is so important. Home is the 1st, Office 2nd, but you generally need another place where people just hang out. This might be a community pool, garden, plaza etc. Somewhat more restricted 3rd places are coffeeshops, bars, art galleries, museums, libraries etc. I believe that cities that want to attract people should invest heavily in creating these places. e.g. Austin built a First Class public library; I was extremely skeptical about that investment, but when the library opened, its a work of art!
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    I agree with this, remove school, college and work and what is left? Not much. Maybe a house of worship if you are religous. Remote work while it provides benefits to people; especially those already in a relationship and with kids, has its costs. Online college is an option now.
    • konart 4y ago
      >Not much. Maybe a house of worship Literature clubs, language classes. Literally any hobbie that does not require you to stay focused on device that may cut off your fingers if you look away.
• thw09j9m 4y ago
  I'll chime in as somebody who's been considered top 10% of attractiveness in one country and bottom 50% in another - the difference in the amount of sexual opportunities on apps is absolutely staggering. Not that this should be a surprise to anyone. Where I am considered attractive, I've gotten 80+ matches in one day and random women messaging me at 11PM telling me they're lonely and to come hang out. I've had more first dates that involved sex than first dates that didn't. Where I am not considered attractive, I get literally no matches except for the occasional Onlyfans spammer. It was extremely depressing to go from one extreme to the other and I just don't bother with dating apps at all now.
  • thefz 4y ago
    Dating apps are not a solution to this problem. Period. Stop thinking that the light plastic square you carry in the pocket all the time can be the cure for everything. It is exactly the opposite.
  • fennecfoxy 4y ago
    Yeah dating apps are built to extract money out of men so that they can see women. It falls back to standard heteronormative sexual archetypes. I keep hearing that hetero peeps often split the bill, woman can propose, etc, these days but that seems more like conjecture to me.
  • raxxorraxor 4y ago
    I had some luck with my looks although I am certainly no super model. I never used a dating app and the thought of them is a bit repellent. I was never interested in meeting women this way at all. Sure, there is a lot of prejudice from my side, but I don't know a single relationship in my fairly large social circle that came about by dating apps. There are exception for some platforms, mainly less gamified dating sites, but it would be difficult to convince me that you are looking for love on tinder. Maybe this is romance for you, but certainly not for everyone. And I guess there is a tendency that more women don't like this style of dating than men. So the few women that are have a lot of choices. Why shouldn't they use that? To me this is about hookups and nothing more. And some people aren't interested in that and I guess for several reasons they are also more successful in relationships.
• gcanyon 4y ago
  If you zoom out far enough, a greater proportion of women than men are in general able to find as many sexual partners they want. The problem isn't complex. The solution probably is, because (I think) obviously the solution in general isn't just sexual gratification. The necessary dynamic involves more than just "getting laid." There's the courtship/pursuit, the uncertainty of matchmaking -- the thing that is missing is not simply "sexual partners."
• jsz0 4y ago
  Jordan Peterson is completely wrong though. Monogamy is part of the problem. We should normalize as a society that there are indeed people you just want to have sex with but are not interested in marrying/reproduction with. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.
  • Zigurd 4y ago
    Jordan Peterson's life is a freakshow. If he had such idiosyncratic views on coding, nobody here would even consider listening to him. If you want to keep your dick dry, go watch some JP.
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    I don't think anyone has an issue with that. Everyone that does not want to be monogamous is free to do so with others the do not want to be monogamous. I think tinder is well known for this. For many other people monogamy is important and a violation of that monogamy is grounds for ending a relationship. Why can both groups not just live their lives and wish each other well? The OP article is not about that, men that want to have sex, monogamous or not are not able to and that number is increasing. I've been with my wife for 23 years now, more than half my life. 100% monogamous on both sides. It works for us and if either one of us was to cheat then that would be the end of the relationship. Relationships are managed by rules accepted by both sides. If a relationship does not want to have monogamy in its rule set and all parties agree then more power to them.
  • joewhale 4y ago
    Could you share how you formed this thought? Why is monogamy part of the problem?
  • allisdust 4y ago
    The problem with this approach is eventually people who think this way are bred out of gene pool. Monogamy has been successful at continuing human race for quite a long time by providing stable growing environments for kids.
  • Manuel_D 4y ago
    There's mixed perspectives on this question. The prevailing opinions are that monogamy flattens sexual opportunity, since sex people choose to have outside of marriage tend to concentrate in a small segment of the dating pool.
• krumpet 4y ago
  I'm married and older so I'm not trying to speak with any dating authority here, but my advice would be to get involved. Volunteer in your community. Join a recreational group. Get to know your neighbors. Basically, expand your social network and do it face-to-face. I'm not saying to ditch dating apps. Rather, supplement by getting out and getting to know the people around you.
  • WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
    You aren't wrong but what's different today is these are often substitutes for the sort of organic socializing that was largely wiped out by modern street and neighborhood planning. Crafted socializing tends to take more energy and resources, two things that are scarce for many in our modern economy.
• some_random 4y ago
  I've noticed that a lot of college aged women dated (at least briefly) men 10+ years older, in some cases more than once. Inevitably they got figuratively screwed by the man who can't get women his age to date him, and eventually go back to dating people their own age.
• pcbro141 4y ago
  I think women naturally just aren't into men as much as men are into women (in general, at a group level). They're also more likely to choose to be alone than be with someone who doesn't meet their standards. So any society where they "don't need a man" (no financial/cultural/patriarchy pressure) is going to have the same large incel issue over time.
  • seydor 4y ago
    > They're also more likely to choose to be alone than be with someone who doesn't meet their standards. But they are not, as the article says women do have sexual partners while men increasingly don't. Men are hugely unmatched in loneliness in the young age groups https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/08/PSDT_08.19.20_dating.relationships-015.png https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/wp-content/uploads...
• dilippkumar 4y ago
  I’d love to start a conversation here about attempting to solve this in a very narrowly defined place as an experiment. Since this is HN, I nominate San Francisco. My hypothesis is that the bandwidth required to present oneself and assess another person is larger than what fits in the self_awareness -> profile_creation -> dating_app_algorithm -> profile_selection -> personality_model_creation -> model_evaluation pipeline. We already know that a lot of communication happens non verbally. There are other signals we care about: do this person’s friends like them, etc. There are questions about compatible value systems and one’s relationship to risk, money, independence etc. If there is a technology solution here, I doubt that it looks like a collection of profiles. Anecdotally, online gaming and niche reddit communities have a somewhat high success rate at creating friendships. One possible way to use this model is a dating app that lets you solve puzzles with another person real time instead of swiping on profile pictures? I don’t know. I’m throwing ideas here to get a conversation started.
  • f-securus 4y ago
    Maybe have a dating app that hides photos until a certain level of communication/time occurs beforehand.... Does such a thing already exists?
    • dilippkumar 4y ago
      I haven’t checked, but my intuition is that removing photos reduces the available bandwidth, not increases it. Perhaps a dating app that only allows photos taken with the app, that ensures no filters or edits were done to the image probably increases the bandwidth. But then, that’s an antifeature - I doubt people would want to use such an app.
• jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  > It was reported that the 5% of the population with the highest number of vaginal sex acts accounted for more vaginal sex acts than the bottom 50% of the population Damn, when you put it like that...
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    Sounds like we found a group that needs to be taxed /S
• radiojasper 4y ago
  To speak in Chandler Bing's terms: I haven't had sex in so long, I think my virginity grew back.
• zozbot234 4y ago
  There is a well-known, foolproof solution to sexual loneliness. As the ancient philosopher Diogenes put it, "I wish it was just as easy to banish hunger by rubbing my belly!" Now, relationship loneliness may well be a different matter. But it can only be addressed by the individual.
• dragonwriter 4y ago
  > One possible aid for sexual loneliness might come from online dating apps such as Tinder. In theory, online dating could provide an efficient way to find a partner. In a theory that, like many 101-level econonic theories, assumes no-cost perfect information, rather than the real costs of information gathering on the alternatives and the real incentives to game this (making it worse for everyone else) by misrepresentation. I would in fact argue that a major cause of the modern issue is belief in the theory that dating apps offer this, and the divide between that theory and the reality. Even pre-dating apps, the dating methods that did the most to divorce dating from general social intercourse contributed to this, but dating apps take that to a whole new level.
• unpopularopp 4y ago
  "Just lower your standards!"
• pmarreck 4y ago
  Online dating absolutely benefits "the typical female mating strategy" more than it does "the typical male mating strategy". I recommend all folks who use the latter (I intentionally phrased this non-gender-specifically) get away from online dating as it is a sucker’s game for us. You have a significantly better chance of scoring an “out of your league” partner in meatspace. If anyone doesn't believe this, make a fake dating profile using photos from someone of the opposite sex that you think is about as attractive as you are and observe what happens when you try to reach out to people. Actually, this might be a great exercise for the guys in particular to see all the low-effort crap that gets thrown their way (and the occasional unsolicited dick pic), but it would also be a great exercise for women to see how much effort it takes simply to get interest returned (in which case you might get so fatigued by the number of sincere requests you send out unanswered, that you resort to sending many more low-effort inquiries instead... See how that works?) I predict this thread will get modlocked later today since every conversation that brings in sexual concerns related to gender/orientation ends up becoming dynamite.
  • davidguetta 4y ago
    Tinder is fine as a male if your profile don't absolutely suck. Most guys have 0 basic understanding of what to put and look like dumb lazy fucks / nice guys. I have friends who are short and not particularly attractive and successful IRL score 60 girls a year because they put some effort into their photos and have a good attitude.
• jmyeet 4y ago
  I kind of agree that online dating has actually exacerbated existing issues rather than solving them. It's not even about the companies (eg Match) either. They simply follow what works. This is kind of a touchy subject because if you're not careful you can wander into the manosphere and become red-pilled (or, worse, black-pilled) and no good will come from that. For convenience, let me describe this in the hetero-normative sense. Obviously this isn't th eonly dynamic at play and is not universal but there are some useful trends that (IMHO) can be extrapolated. 1. Men fear being rejected. Women fear being SAed, abducted, trafficked, beaten and/or killed. You cannot overstate how important this is. As such, women tend to be wary and will try and find signs and create rules to quickly filter people out; 2. (IMHO) Women aren't actually that good at filtering. Specifically, there is a significant correlation between traditional physical attractiveness and "trustworthiness" [1]. This extends to serial killers too [2]. 3. Online dating rewards a set of skills that don't have all that much to do with relationships. People who master those skills tend to do very well. If their potential partners aren't looking for that and don't recognize it, they will be dissatisfied; 4. Men (in the hetero-normative sense) put in very little effort and somehow still have high expectations. Going to the gym by itself could put you ahead of the pack; 5. There are people who use dating apps as entertainment (eg they have no intention of meeting). If that's not what you want, you need to learn to filter that out ASAP; 6. As noted, women get a lot of messages and attention. Men, generally, get far less (each). This is exacerbated by men dominating dating apps in general. My general advice for anyone to avoid falling down the Andrew Tate rookie hole is to, if you're a man: 1. Pay for premium and simply swipe right on everybody. Don't even look. Do this for half an hour once a week. Actually looking at a profile before deciding how to swipe is a poor use of time because each swipe is low probability no matter who you are. Only look at profiles for matches. You can always unmatch if you're not interested; 2. Your goal is to get to a meeting ASAP. It should be low investment too. Coffee, a walk (somewhere public), a museum, etc. There's no need and no point to spend a lot of money on first dates. Time management matters so do 3-4 1 hour blocks in a night, for example. 3. Don't take rejection personally. Just say "nice meeting you" and move on. This is part of the point of arranging a number of dates so you don't get over-invested too early in any particular prospective partner. Realize that even those you consider the most attractive still get rejected; 4. Don't tie your value in a relationship to your external status (eg job, car, how much money you spend, clothes, accessories). At best, you're probably attracting the wrong kind of partner (unless, you know, you want a sugar baby, which is all fine if consensual). 5. Put in some effort. You'll be surprised how far the bare minimum will get you regarding appearing groomed, clothed appropriately and even moderately fit and healthy. Go to the gym. Lift weights. 6. Avoid "yes or no" questions. Listen to the answers. Don't view it as a problem to be solved eg if someone is having problems with someone at work they're almost certainly not ask you to solve it for them. 7. Understand that women deal with a lot of shit (and, don't forget, actual danger). Be cognisant of that. Your idea of pushing and persistence may actually legitimiately scare someone and may rise to the level of a crime. You're not owed any explanation either. On the other side, realize women too can have toxic traits or simply traits you're not interested in. The term "femcel" exists for a reason. If and when that happens, it's because of that individual, not an indictment on an entire gender. 8. Whatever you do, don't get red-pilled. [1]: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1461444816675440?journalCode=nmsa https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/146144481667544... [2]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/ted-bundy-why-the-serial-killer-attracted-female-fans/10763676 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-01/ted-bundy-why-the-ser...
• javier_e06 4y ago
  The fear of social media retribution is real. People becoming intimate comes at the risk of being stigmatized within social networks. Adding to it the distorted key-hole, anxiety-driven on-line experience and well, becoming a Monk starts sounding more and more appealing.
• nickdothutton 4y ago
  Feels like someone should say something about the decline in participation in civil society, group activity, clubs (that are not purely online), and Putnam’s Bowling Alone.
• alexfromapex 4y ago
  Very interesting, would love to see a follow up study that investigates what is leading to this
• todfox 4y ago
  Sexual loneliness and frustration is strange to me. I accept that it is real and painful for many people. But I just don't understand how the desire for sex drives people to take risks with their health and safety, or how the lack of it causes despair or violence. What is the big deal about sex anyway? Why do some guys go crazy if they can't have sexual intimacy? A lot of time and effort for what, ten minutes of pleasure? But a deep (non-sexual) friendship can last all your life. I don't think we should restructure society and become more traditional and conservative (whether de jure or de facto) just to cater to the very few who may become violent when they can't get laid. I think the not getting laid part is just an excuse. Prior to the sexual revolution, when people married young and divorce was rare, violence inside marriages was very common. Overall I think I'm lucky that I'm asexual. There is a whole class of problems that I have never had to think about. I have no desire to exercise power over others or to allow them to exercise power over me.
  • seydor 4y ago
    > the desire for sex drives people to take risks with their health and safety, or how the lack of it causes despair or violence. They don't . There are scores of men who are lonely. You only hear about a tiny few vocal cases which are not even statistically significant. Men are much more likely to commit violence in general regardless of sexual frustration. But it's easy for psychopaths to attribute their violent behavior to anything
  • clint 4y ago
    Many boys spend nearly their entire first 18 years of their lives stewing in an extremely toxic media/community/family ecosystem where sexual virility and your ability to have sex with women is _directly_ correlated with status and success in life. Similarly, your in-abililty to attract members of the opposite sex is _directly_ correlated with your status as a loser and station in life.
    • todfox 4y ago
      Why do humans have to seek status? Wouldn't we all be happier and healthier if we stopped caring about where we are in the social pecking order?
• etchalon 4y ago
  I've yet to find a guy who was worth dating that wasn't in a relationship if they wanted to be in one. I do know a lot of guys who struggle with the fact that the woman they're attracted to aren't to them. I definitely know a few women for whom that's true too, but it's mostly men, and generally younger ones. And so they quote that same 80/20 rule from Peterson, which has no data behind it beside one bad survey, and insist its society's fault. Meanwhile their Tinder profiles are just lists of all they things they demand from a partner – generally things they themselves won't provide. Which isn't to say the problem isn't real – it definitely is – but it seems like any "solution" is going to have start at either commercial ideas (sex work) or a cultural shift.
• aatd86 4y ago
  I don't understand why having mastery over one's own conditioning is not put forward. Sex is not necessary for health. That's weird. This is just an ingrained behavior to ensure reproduction via neurotransmitter feedback (dopamine). One should be able to trivially control that consciously, no big deal.
  • LorenPechtel 4y ago
    A lack of sex and a lack of romantic relationships both have substantial negative correlations with health.
    • seydor 4y ago
      I always wondered if this commonly quoted fact is the wrong way of causation. Men who are more healthy are more likely to seek more love sounds more logical. It also seems that men who have a lot of sex have a lot of STDs. I would like to see the statistics
• voldacar 4y ago
  Meta, but it's interesting how many comments here are reflexively blaming men and their collective behaviour for this. On its face this seems irrational since who has sex in present day culture is basically gatekept by women. There appears to be this bizarre cultural taboo or cognitive bias where women can (collectively) have agency but when they use that agency to make decisions that harm others, you aren't allowed to criticize them collectively because that would be immoral or something.
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    Sex in general may or may not be gatekept by women, but good, enjoyable, risk-free sex is gatekept by men. Is it any wonder that people don't want bad. risky sex?
    • voldacar 4y ago
      You are romanticizing a lot of things in this comment
• VincentEvans 4y ago
  I think you lot should get off apps and approach women the old-fashioned way. I am ok looking guy and have not encountered any problems meeting women my entire life. But one thing I can say that my experience with that is entirely IRL so to speak, I’ve never bothered with apps, never even downloaded one. I have freckles, speak with an accent, and not at all athletic (though not what one might call fat either). I drive a ford truck. Just your average software engineer. One word of advice I can offer - is that women (and same goes for men) often become a lot more attractive when you see them in person, get to know them, learn what they are like, see them smile and experience emotions. All the things you can never understand by looking at a pic in an app. And as you interact with them - they too will see you in a new light.
  • VincentEvans 4y ago
    And one more thing. You should also know that some people who look really great in pictures - become impossible to be around and quite unlikable because of how they behave and what they say.
• dsign 4y ago
  Homo Sapiens evolved to be uber-sexual[^1]. But at some point we decided we were only going to have a very narrow type of sex partner in a very narrow set of conditions, and doing otherwise would be a social taboo. Fast-forward, we live in a world where guys' natural needs go unfulfilled. Who figures. Don't hate me for saying this, but if you are one of those guys who can't get laid with the girl they want: broaden your scope. Try to date the girl who would be your number 3 choice, or your boss' wife, or try an intimate friend of your same sex. Also, stop watching Netflix and Hollywood movies, that's not how life works. --- [^1] I'm basing this on some reading of "Sex at Dawn". Call that work disreputable if you may, but it's written by scientists.
• 1248 4y ago
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• ape4 4y ago
  Maybe they should teach how to date in school.
• konart 4y ago
  Fortunatelly I have a wife now, but for me for the longest time the so called "sexual lineliness" was linked with the three facts: 1) I was raised into believing that sex implies serious relationship and vice versa. As in "if we are having sex that means we are in serious relatioinship". As it turned out - this does not work like this for most (many?) people. Turns out yuo can just have a good time and some sex without worrying about 1001 things before you do so. 2) I simply do not like dating. Like at all. For me a perfect date is the one that I can attend during my lunch time or maybe after studies\work. Definatelly not on weekend. Definetely not longer that 2 hours (well 3-4 if we are really into each other and both have the same kind of thinking about how to spent free time). May be just bad luck but many girls I've met wanted those stupid 6 hours walks around the city talking about all things you can imagine. (don't you have things to do?) 3) I failed to realise I can suggest any type of activity during our date and not just try and adjust to her preferences. As a result a bunch of dates were just me doing shit I didn't like UPD: fixed a few obvious typos.
  • avmich 4y ago
    > 1) I was raised into believing that sex implies serious relationship and vice versa. As in "if we are having sex that means we are in serious relatioinship". As it turned out - this does not work like this for most (many?) people. Turns out yuo can just have a good time and some sex without worrying about 1001 things before you do so. This seems to contradict some view on women's POV here. As in, for women the sexual transaction is big serious deal.
    • winter_blue 4y ago
      > As in, for women the sexual transaction is big serious deal. If that truly were the case, you wouldn't see 5% of these hypersexual men monopolizing 50% of sex (as the paper says). Or maybe many women like intentionally putting themselves in harem-like situation, if in exchange they get to have sex with "hot men". Overall, it's a deplorable state of affairs.
      • yieldcrv 4y ago
• 1970-01-01 4y ago
  Gamification improves everything. Make sex a sport!
• readthenotes1 4y ago
  Reminds me of the very old joke: Man: hey baby, want some of this? (Pointing to his crotch) Woman: why would I want some of that when I can get all I want whenever I want with this? (Pointing to her crotch) -- It obviously doesn't apply to all women, but that's really what we're talking about here.
• giardia 4y ago
  People have been having a lot less sex for a while now. I think technology is largely to blame, too. We're so accustomed to things being served up for us that the ability to function outside that specific setting has atrophied. We've become more connected than ever, but we're more singular and selfish than ever. This is worse with generations that have had an internet-connected computer in from of them their whole life, especially in the social media era (studies show). I expect people to be getting more and more neurotic and weird. I think also that the effects of internet porn really can't be underestimated. There's something emasculating about one of humanity's ultimate drives being sated with a couple of mouse clicks. Then look at what is delivered: it's not sex, it's not even a depiction of sex, it's a depiction of a simulacra of sex. Generally speaking, porn divorces us from our own sexuality. Instead of exploring and developing our own sexuality with others, we're served the depiction of others performing for the camera and we get that in our heads. If you think that doesn't impact your sex life or sexuality I don't know what to say.
• EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  If it's a health problem, it can easily be treated with an injection of gozelerin.
• Beaver117 4y ago
  Can we talk about making prostitution legal? Other countries have realized their sexual loneliness problem and made it legal, which somewhat helped. When men have some access to sex, it improves outcomes for everyone.
  • seydor 4y ago
    which country did that and what problem did it solve? The same pattern of loneliness is found in countries with legalized prostitution
    • Beaver117 4y ago
      It's much easier to date in legal countries. A lot of Europe, Austrailia, New Zealand, have much less trouble than the US. But it doesn't completely solve the problem, sure. There are other factors too
• seydor 4y ago
  Calling this a "health issue" is quite misleading, as these issues cut through the fabric of society itself. Sexual competition might have been a thing in our deep past but what we call "societies" in historic times were built around sexual regulations that ensured people wouldn't just 'leave because they have nothing to lose'. Ancient Rome's foundational myth contained the abduction of the Sabine women . In ancient Athens, Solon estabished brothels to limit adultery and increase social cohesion > seeing Athens full of young men, with both an instinctual compulsion, and a habit of straying in an inappropriate direction, bought women and established them in various places, equipped and common to all. Of course in those days, it was expected that if you were a decent-ish member of society you were basically guaranteed a wife (which you might have not even met) and a family that would perpetuate the same kind of society. Sexual competition is feral and fundamentally anti-society. But that is the choice that people make, deliberately. we are increasingly individualists and have chosen to live that way , especially in western societies. Seeing this as a "problem" implies that there is a solution somewhere and that it is fundamentally a bad thing. But it seems that it is just the future. And there will be consequences as large percentages of mainly men feel increasing disconnected and having nothing to bind them in a society. As these men grow up, approach retirement or financial independence they will increasingly move to places where they can live with less strings attached. Not necessarily to a sexual paradise, but just to a place that demands less taxes, is more tolerant to single men (western culture isn't), that shames them less, etc etc. We are already having the trend of record numbers of households being single-person homes. The next logical step is to move that household to whatever place treats the individual best.
  • ianai 4y ago
    Are there places that treat single person homes or even single men without shame?
  • LorenPechtel 4y ago
    Mental health is still health.
    • seydor 4y ago
      is celibacy a mental disorder?
• yieldcrv 4y ago
  > In theory, online dating could provide an efficient way to find a partner. However, online dating divides people heavily into winners and losers – perhaps even more so than traditional dating. Another reminder to delete your dating profiles and then delete the dating apps! Don't let anyone gaslight you into suggesting your selection of photos are the problem, the jury has returned and the verdict is out. You might think that just keeping those feelers out there will benefit you in a wider network, but inactive use of a dating app will decrease the visibility of your profile at all, and undiscerning use of a dating app trying to match with other unattractive/unpopular people will also decrease the visibility of your profile to only the people in your same level of unpopularity. The hot people are never evaluating your profile because the app won't even let them see you, its way worse than just imagining their inbox is inundated as that's just the next hurdle. Delete it, you'll have to modify your lifestyle and schedule to do things that are social and interesting just like in the before times.
• lechacker 4y ago
  As a 30+ year old kissless virgin I have recently began noticing that the loneliness part has began affecting me more deeply than usual. I suppose noticing the first signs of aging in my face led to the realization of all things not-done. I've had a couple of episodes of despair in the past few months because of this. Unfortunately people like me become helpless. You'll be alone because you _are_ alone: you don't have any social proof, any social skill, people your age don't "get together" to find a partner at the same rate as younger people, they have higher expectations regarding your experience and more. The way I see it, once each man crosses a certain age without any or much sexual experience they will become stuck in that category the rest of their lives. Whether we have the tendency to lash out violently against others or ourselves more than the average, I don't know. I wonder if the solution by Western society will come in the way of some "Minority Report-like" way to identify us and pre-emptively lock us out.
  • pmarreck 4y ago
    Did you cover all the biological bases, get your hormones checked, etc.? I was a "late bloomer" growing up; turns out I had low T, which is something my doctor-averse parents would have never had treated anyway.
  • Woberto 4y ago
    There's gotta be somebody you can pay to help you develop social skills. Kind of like etiquette schools or something, maybe with opportunities to practice. It's like a personal trainer of sorts. I'd charge, what, maybe $60/hr to take somebody with me to the dog park and help them engage in conversation, give them feedback and ideas, etc.
  • avmich 4y ago
    Ugh. Did you consider looking for help from paid professionals?
    • lechacker 4y ago
      I am under psychiatric treatment. And the way we treat it isn't by expecting me to magically integrate to society at my age with my lack of experience but by managing the despair. That's why I wanted to comment here: I found most comments looking for "ways" to get these guys "dates". But some (and I bet it's most) of those who are sexually lonely (or romantically lonely) are past the social point-of-no-return. They are pestilent to others. Constantly exposing them to environments where they will face rejection at best, excoriation at worst is only going to drive them deeper into misantropy. And that may lead to violence.
• nvarsj 4y ago
  There is something messed up in modern dating. IME a girl who is a 5/10 can get a date/laid easily, with barely any effort, and usually with a more attractive male. A guy who is 5/10 has to do insane antics just to get a shot, including learn to be a standup comedian, be in great shape, have a good job, read tons of dating books, etc. I’m not sure it’s the fault of OLD, but something is messed up. It’s frankly depressing to date as a guy these days.
  • majikaja 4y ago
    'Modern' women just aren't that interested in hookups with 5/10 guys, deal with it. Maybe blame men for being so indiscriminate?
  • mixmastamyk 4y ago
    Off balance because there are more men and they are greedy, simple as that. Perhaps find a place with more women and the tide will turn. Be grateful we’re not trapped in China after the one kid policy.