24 ms·

Companies use drip pricing to overcharge consumers

317 points by 27153 4y ago

LanceH 4y ago
I've always wanted to send AT&T an invoice on a contract and add in my taxes after the fact.
entropicgravity 4y ago
Is this kind of scam legal anywhere? Isn't it a contract? I will sell you this little doggy in the window for $50 the customer says "ok" then seller says " so that will be $80 plus tax".
KoenDG 4y ago
Sounds like a case of pissing on people's leg and telling em it's raining.
sillyapple 4y ago
I am going to open a restaurant where everything is $1 and in tiny text at the bottom of the menu explain that you also pay a $19 Price Convince Fee per item.
nhchris 4y ago
How is this not textbook false advertising?
- 27153 4y ago
  Looks like the FTC is aware of it but I'm not sure that there have been any regulations against it yet. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events/2012/05/economics-drip-pricing https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events/2012/05/economics-dri... According to Wikipedia there were some strongly worded letters sent to some hotel operators... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing
bradleyjg 4y ago
This is far worse than Airbnb. As annoying as the cleaning fees are, they are disclosed before you obligate yourself. A 20% fee only disclosed after you’ve already ordered and eaten is just fraud.
- benatkin 4y ago
  Not to mention that you can search for AirBnbs that have lower cleaning fees.
  - hadlock 4y ago
    Once they started including cleaning fees on the regular, often for as much as a single night's stay, I've largely curtailed my use of the service, and have gone back to hotels. Very occasionally, like for an out of state wedding, especially out in the country where hotel options are limited, we'll still at least glance at airbnb type services. I used to really like airbnb but instead of undercutting hotels on price they're often significantly higher, along with significant risk of an unpredictable or even bad experience. Staying at a chain hotel virtually guarantees no unexpected issues and no unexpected charges or drama. The last experience I had with airbnb (two years ago) the host grilled me on why I wanted a last minute booking (pandemic staycation baby-moon). Was not thrilled with the experience. When you book with a hotel all they ask you is for your ID and if you want a king or two queen beds.
    - benatkin 4y ago
      A single night's stay is actually a great use of a cleaning fee, because the cost of cleaning can't be spread between multiple nights.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  This. The other industries mentioned might tack on fees at check-out time, but the service/product hasn't yet been consumed, so the consumer can back out. This isn't true with dining out, where you see a price list, order, eat, and then get a bill at the end. You can no longer opt to eat elsewhere. You either make a scene or pay the undisclosed fees. Restaurants should at least put a notice on the menu in a highly visible location, but even that isn't going to be foolproof. Really, this practice should be banned everywhere. As a consumer, I largely don't give a shit what expenses a vendor has; I only care about the final price. I can see an argument for disclosing regulatory fees, because as a resident/citizen, I can at least lobby politicians to change those fees. But, even that's a bit of a crap argument.
wccrawford 4y ago
I thought it was already illegal to force a change of price after fulfilling your half of the deal? Unless the customer agrees to these fees before service, I don't think you can legally force them to pay it. If they do it without question, of course they can get away with it.
- changoplatanero 4y ago
  They should get the state attorney general to look into it
- jawns 4y ago
  They likely have the sign posted in a place that is easy enough for diners to miss as they enter, but still prominent enough to fulfill legal requirements about giving customers notice of the fee.
Invictus0 4y ago
Don't pay it! Tell the restaurant to remove the fee or you walk. You can hand the waitress cash for her tip directly.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Yes, do not sign the receipt if it includes hidden charges and hit them with a chargeback if they refuse.
- flemhans 4y ago
  I wouldn't even tip after such an attempt to be defrauded. Sorry for the waitstaff, and I hope they find a job elsewhere.
vr46 4y ago
In America. This would not fly in Europe, I hope. Pretty sure menus have to be displayed out front with full pricing and service charges have their own rules.
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  Wouldn't fly in much of America either. Try this in the midwest and I'm pretty sure your restaurant would be closing in weeks.
  - SL61 4y ago
    Yeah, I live in an area that straddles the line between the midwest and the south, and I haven't seen anything like this. Same for the QR-code-only menus that the internet has been complaining about lately. I'm sure that if one local restaurant implemented this they wouldn't last long, but if a lot of local restaurants started doing it at the same time, they'd probably get away with it. Maybe they're all waiting for someone else to take the plunge.
- duxup 4y ago
  >In America. America is a big place, so is Europe. I wouldn't expect this to fly in a lot of places in America either. I've seen a place in America where they tried it and it failed.
  - lavezzi 4y ago
    The same concept is already heavily ingrained in American culture. Try and name a place that provides you with a price quote up front that is already inclusive of all taxes and fees.
    - IX-103 4y ago
      The gas station
  - flumpcakes 4y ago
    In Europe it is illegal to sell things without tax and fees included (unless it is B2B but they still include VAT listed next to the non-VAT price) so they couldn't even try this. Saying that I have started seeing gratuity automatically applied to some of my bills... So perhaps it's not as illegal as I thought...
civilized 4y ago
I will sometimes succumb to drip pricing for the reasons given (already received service, already done research and made purchase choice, etc) but I remember and avoid giving them repeat business. I don't have time for scammers. Best remedy is to cut them out of my life.
- mox1 4y ago
  Unfortunately you are in the minority, in general these hidden or drip fees increase revenue[1]. 1. https://therooster.com/articles/stubhub-experiment-shows-that-customers-will-pay-more-for-tickets-if-hidden-fees-are-added-at-check-out https://therooster.com/articles/stubhub-experiment-shows-tha...
  - civilized 4y ago
    Doesn't seem to address the long-term impact. Only shows that people will pay what is asked in the moment, which I don't dispute.
adamwong246 4y ago
All the more reason to stay home and cook your own food.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- flemhans 4y ago
  It's still sad when options are being limited. A nice world would have high-quality affordable produce for home cooking as well as affordable dining out. Dining out should be cheaper than cooking yourself, since they can optimize the process and buy in bulk.
duxup 4y ago
A local restaurant tired a wellness fee (it was actually a small %) in my area (Midwest USA), got a ton of bad press, traffic when I went by looked like it had dropped off significantly. They survived but according to the manager I spoke to only because they were owned by a restaurant group that had income from other restaurant without a wellness fee. They made a big public statement, emails, flyers, about reverting the fee and so on and eventually recovered.
grouchomarx 4y ago
I've seen this over and over in SF and now rarely eat out. Many friends and coworkers are taking the same approach, most of whom never used to cook at home. Scamming your customers 5, 10, 20% at a time doesn't seem like a great long term strategy
- mihaaly 4y ago
  I just wanted to say that this practice backfires with me. Those want to excercise such tactics better be in the 'deceive a large amount of persons once then go under and repeat' kind of business because they will never see me again. Assuming they could scam me once. Which is harder and harder by each passing occasions others give the liberty to themselves. Being tired of being scammed got me to reacting harsh even to a faint smell of such and make my stand. Especially when they try to wrap it into supposedly guilt triggering tactics like calling it Fair Wage fee, only to expose how unfair they are with their employees. Those wan't to engage in fair and transparent practices will meet my appreciation as it is so hard meeting such services I want to hang on to them and pay fair prices without forcing on me.
- floren 4y ago
  https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-What-is-this-SF-Mandates-13254923.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-Wh...
- UberFly 4y ago
  Exactly. My solution is also to just not eat out. Like the article says though, it's unfair to the businesses that choose not to do this. Maybe the solution is to just not pay extras if places don't disclose all costs up front.
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  Same for me. I am feeling more and more that a lot of businesses are becoming more and more dishonest and are basically just trying to rip their customers off. I don't enjoy concerts, sports or restaurants anymore because of this and lately I also resent going shopping at places that have one of the tablet checkouts that tries to guilt trip into a 20% tip. One more reason to become cynical. As if the world isn't cynical enough already.
voakbasda 4y ago
Boost Mobile did this recently when my wife and I switched cell carriers. They advertised a $30/month/line plan (after a 3-month introductory period at an even lower price), but we are now paying closer to $45. This has pissed me off enough that I want to look for another carrier, but this seems to be SOP for this industry. Telcos behave like nothing less than a criminal cartel, so I was hardly surprised by this play. Nice to know it has a name. Another comment here pointed out that the FTC is aware of this practice and has solicited comments from the public. Quoting from their linked article on `ftc.gov`: > FTC Chairman Jon Leibowitz asked consumers to share their drip pricing stories with the FTC. Consumers can call us at 1-877-FTC-HELP. I gave them a call, and the first thing the automated system informed me is that one can file a complaint online: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/
- TuringNYC 4y ago
  My favorite is when wireless carriers can charge a "Regulatory Recovery Fee", which is basically part of the price, but can magically change and magically appear on your bill. The fact that the FTC is fussed about free chat apps rather than wireless carrier practices in the US is obscene.
  - myself248 4y ago
    You know it doesn't have to be one or the other, right? They can care about both?
    - claytonjy 4y ago
      They have limited resources, so caring about one they don't currently care about necessarily removes resources from something they currently care about.
    - TuringNYC 4y ago
      Regulatory recovery fees have been around for over 20yrs in the US. Sure, the FTC could tackle both, but they 20yrs have gone by, and you still cannot actually get the final price for a wireless contract in the US until after you sign up for a 2yr plan. Instead we're focusing on chat apps which were born in the past decade, require no 2yr plans, and for that matter, dont even cost money and have 50 free competitors. Great prioritization.
MDWolinski 4y ago
The concept of tipping is for "tipped" positions in restaurants. Someone in a Tipped position earns far less then minimum wage, which is made up by customer Tips. So this leads into my frustration with the proliferation of tipping, which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services), is someone working at Starbucks making tipped wages or at/above minimum. If it's the latter, then they shouldn't be tipped except in extraordinary customer service situations. It would be interesting to see how tips in restaurants that have drip pricing have changed since the implementation of them. All that being said, I love in France (and I'm sure other parts of Europe) where there's a service charge added to each bill and that's it. I can leave some extra coins if I wanted to, but otherwise additional tips are expected. There, wait staff are paid a livable wage.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services) In my experience, it existed before in the form of tip jars (in NYC area), but really blew up when tablet point of sale systems like Clover came into the picture. They earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar. And then the point of sale providers got even more greedy and removed the no tip option, and started making it so users had to press “custom tip” in order to tip zero or otherwise increase the friction of not tipping.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    > They [Clover] earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar. I have wondered about this as a possible motive. I assumed that shops paid a monthly fee, or perhaps a per-transaction fee. But they're paying based on gross revenue? Do all POS systems work this way?
dqv 4y ago
It would be nice to have bundle reform that requires all prices to be listed as taxes-and-fees-inclusive here in the US. Ok, it’s not going to happen federally, but I’d at least like it where I live. Changing prices is already regular maintenance, so the idea that this would place a burden on businesses is BS. If they have metadata at the cash register to know how to tax different items, they can have it at the label printer too. And for ecommerce, it’s even easier. As to the wellness fee, I would be way more receptive to the 20% increase being included in the menu prices with a note about what that 20% does.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>It would be nice to have bundle reform that requires all prices to be listed as taxes-and-fees-inclusive here in the US No no no no Taxes should be listed for atleast 3 reasons 1. The company is not paying the tax, you are. You owe the tax not the company, the company is merely collecting the tax for the government. In many states the company is paid to collect this tax on the governments behalf. If the tax was not collected at time of purchase you still owe the government the money 2. Hiding taxation is never a good thing, Taxes we pay should be transparent to everyone as they are extractions from the economy and we should be fully aware of the amount of money the government is stealing errr extracting from us at all times 3. Tax increases are blamed on the merchant if they are hidden in the price instead of on the government where they belong, this makes is politically easier to raise the sales taxes if it is all hidden from the consumer. If a state goes from 8 to 10% people will notice that tax went up instead of the price. This is one of the reasons why of you look historically gas taxes have increased far more than the sales tax rate, because gas taxes are hidden into the price of gas where sales taxes are not.
  - hyperman1 4y ago
    Here in Belgium (and most of Europe), we basically do both. Each line on a bill has 3 numbers: the untaxed price, the tax or tax rate, the taxed price. There are also 3 totals.
  - eadler 4y ago
    I like how the UK does it. Total final price is the one on the sticker but tax is listed on the receipt. Something like Sticker : $100 Receipt Price: $92 Tax: $8 Total: $100
olliej 4y ago
The important thing about the bs “fair wage fees”, is that because they’re not tips or anything protected the employer has no legal obligation to pass it on to the staff. Which is the point.
jasode 4y ago
A reddit thread made the front page with a similar example of surprise "Economic Recovery Fee" added onto the restaurant bill: https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/10gowkx/first_fancy_dinner_in_god_knows_when_and_got/ https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/10gowkx/... If a government watchdog like FTC doesn't stop this or a new explicit law that only allows "total final price" clearly displayed before purchase, it means every type of business will want to play the "Ticketmaster-convenience-fees" game by creatively coming up with new fees. If businesses are trying to get more money, they should do it by transparently raising prices instead of tricking people into paying hidden fees.
- silisili 4y ago
  > If businesses are trying to get more money, they should do it by transparently raising prices instead of tricking people into paying hidden fees. Yup. This seems like a terrible long term strategy. If I'd eaten expecting $X, and the total is now $X + $Y, and they have the nerve to remind me it's not a tip, I'm probably not leaving a tip, and I'm -definitely- not coming back. Most cities are rather static in populace. This is a great way to see yourself out of business for a tiny short term profit.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Some restaurants get the vast majority of their business from tourists who would never be repeat customers regardless. Those restaurants might think they can get away with such fees. But those restaurants are highly dependent on Yelp reviews et al; such fees are a great way to get bad reviews.
- cute_boi 4y ago
  Does the link have some issues? I see a hair in the upper right part of the screen and it scrolls too. I thought it was my hair strand and tried to remove it. I realized it was not my hair and then suspect my monitor has damaged. Opened a new tab and finally realized it was the page haha.
  - 4y ago
avitous 4y ago
Just say no. If the added fees are known up front, take business elsewhere. If they're only revealed after the fact, I would become That Ugly Customer, and they would never get my business again. If enough do this, then behaviors will change, especially if such businesses are retaliated against. As they should be.
- iinnPP 4y ago
  It's so strange that we go out of our way to discount the only people in society who are trying to correct issues like fraud. Businesses defrauding customers with brain-dead customers attacking people standing up for their consumer rights. Absolute insanity.
ok_dad 4y ago
I have had the exact same T-Mobile account and plans for more than 10 years now, and I have seen my monthly bill go from ~$82 to ~$86 today because of additional fees. The bulk of my plan has been the exact same, just additional or increased fees for the extra $4. It's not much money, but it's the principle that they can adjust my costs upwards without me consenting, essentially forever, that pisses me off.
- No1 4y ago
  They spend all that money on the #feeface marketing campaign, and then tack on fees. It’s like they’re tying to taunt their customers.
renewiltord 4y ago
Interesting. I used to either go to Peets or Starbucks, and after a while exclusively the latter because of the annoying Peets tip thing which I never know what to put on. Is a $2.5 Americano a $1 tip? Who the hell knows? Anyway, I eventually stopped going to Peets. Then a year passes and Starbucks started this shit. The local workers do that embarrassed "and there's a new extra button you have to hit" thing, but it was just a bit more annoying and now I just use the Nespresso pods at work. We just got a bunch more of them. My colleagues just use the app which doesn't involve that interaction and then they go pick up. It's probably a strange pet peeve of mine, but having to think about whether I'm disappointing this service worker or being impolite to them or pick the right price or whatever is costly enough that I'd rather just not interact with them. It's also why I like the market delis, Chipotle, and Sweetgreen so much. You just show up, grab what you want, pay, and walk out. Smooth experience.
- TehShrike 4y ago
  When I go to Starbucks now I always order in the app first and pick up at the counter, even if I'm already there.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  I've never been prompted to tip at the Starbucks drive through in my area. I pay using the app after loading up the gift card (you get more stars this way). I'm very much tired of the explosion of tipping culture though. Now fast food wants me to tip workers. This was definitely not the norm when I was growing up, or even pre COVID, and as far as I'm aware, they're all hourly workers that started making pretty good wages in due part thanks to staffing shortages (McDonalds was hiring for 18-20 USD an hour, pretty big increase) I feel like service industries and restaurants are doing anything they can to push costs onto the consumer without raising "official" prices. Like they all employed the same sociology consultants and they discovered what social levers they can instrument to get people to pay more without "paying" more. I been seeing these "economic recovery fees", "COVID safety fees" and other nonsense too. I eat alot more at home now.
pjsg 4y ago
I always object to US retail adding Tax to the price of the items. In the UK (and I expect Europe) the price on the shelf is the price that you pay. VAT is included. In the US, you walk into a store and have to become an expert at understanding local taxes in order to figure out how much anything costs. Hotels often have four of five extra fees tacked on. I'd like "The price you see is the price you pay" to be the rule.
- duxup 4y ago
  Hotels and some things are a huge mess. But generally your random consumer buying a random widget has some idea about what taxes are involved and roughly what to expect when they buy specific consumer goods / the machine tells them what to pay. It's complex if you want to do the math and get the exact number each time, but for most transactions it's a fairly small amount / not something you need to think about / need to know the exact number. If I go pickup a burrito I'm not worrying about if it is $10 or $10.25. If I wanted to worry about that it is possible to figure that out without knowing all the taxes myself.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    In my experience, hotels show total cost prominently. Go to Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/IHG/choice/Wyndham websites, and before you can reserve, it will show you total cost and list potential parking/pet/resort/other fees.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    But the vendor needs to figure out the exact number anyway at checkout! It's not like they get to avoid the calculation effort this way.
- myself248 4y ago
  Most places in the US, the local tax is the same statewide. Not in Ohio, where it can vary by township, sometimes across invisible boundaries. I once attended a large flea-market where such a boundary cut through the fairgrounds. Taxes were different on one side of the line than the other. It's so bad that Ohio actually has a mobile app that uses your phone's GPS to figure out which jurisdiction you're in and show the applicable tax rate. If I say mean things about Ohio from time to time, this is part of why.
gpvos 4y ago
Is this even legal, unless it's marked very clearly on the menu? Also it's an excellent way to make sure you have no repeat customers.
rags2riches 4y ago
"I wanted you to know I apply a 50 per cent After the Fact discount to all my meals. The details are on my homepage."
- itronitron 4y ago
  "Click accept to continue"
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
In some countries it would be illegal. If you haven't seen the additional fee before ordering and they mention it only afterwards, it's a fraud. Personally, I can't imagine I would pay it. Yes, I don't shy away from a confrontation.
- JTbane 4y ago
  It ought to be illegal, I've went to a take-out place that had a tiny note card taped to the counter where no one EVER looks before ordering: "optional" COVID surcharge.
junon 4y ago
I would simply walk out. This shouldn't be legal. In every spirit of the law, this is malicious.
idopmstuff 4y ago
What really gets me at restaurants is that they often don't disclose this on the menu up front. I've started taking pictures of menus when I eat out, so when the bill comes and there's a 4% surcharge, I can be sure that it was not disclosed. I think if you disclose it, it's annoying but hey, free markets and all that. If you don't disclose it and charge people extra, I think that's just downright dishonest. The upside is that they will take it off 100% of the time - the waiter will almost always do it, and on the rare occasion that they have to get a manager, the manager will always do it. I never bitch at the waitstaff about it, but if they make me talk to a manager, I absolutely bitch at the manager.
- monksy 4y ago
  You should be sending the pictures of the reciept and the menu to your attorney general. Typically hidden non-tax fees are not legal if you never mention it early on.
  - idopmstuff 4y ago
    Honestly, the cost/benefit ratio isn't just there. Leaving a one star review on Yelp is both faster and probably more likely to have an impact on the restaurant.
    - BonoboIO 4y ago
      Tell your credit card company. They overcharged you intentionally... fraudulently.
    - monksy 4y ago
      Those get burried, and maanged out by social media marketers. Also it doesn't stop the behavior as quickly. Those people are defrauding the people who go there.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
That’s ridiculous. Refuse to pay it, and put the restaurant on blast on social media.
aetherspawn 4y ago
In Australia it is simpler. The staff all get paid an award wage that is set by the government, and it is plenty, around $24/hr or more depending on age. This makes our food somewhat expensive: at least $20 for a sit-in meal, around $4.50 for a coffee. But what you see on the menu is what you pay and includes tax: tipping is not in our culture, and I have never seen drip charging here except on public holidays (“public holiday surcharge”). Our consumer rights laws probably protect our right to walk away and not pay undisclosed drip charges, although it has never happened to me. — Admittedly, the award wage makes it difficult for newly established bootstrapped businesses to hire their first staff. For example, we were looking at hiring a graduate engineer, but the award wage was around $40/hr after benefits (superannuation etc), and then there is mandatory Work Cover insurance on top of that. Legally we can’t hire anyone below this amount because Fair Work would have a field day suing us, so we put it off until we can afford to pay, but without financing the leap we are maybe stuck in a catch 22.
- Psychlist 4y ago
  Not just that, it's a legal requirement that the price advertised is the price you pay. The ACCC will enforce this. It's why, for example, the supermarket ogliopoly have a "if it's mispriced it's free" policy, they got fined for inaccurate pricing and tried to turn it into a PR win. Airlines and ticketmaster are currently fighting to change it but now we have a less right-wing federal government again hopefully the ACCC will be allowed to do their job.
  - pedalpete 4y ago
    I didn't know about the "if it's mischarged it's free" policy. My local supermarket (not Coles or Woolies) always rings things in at the till wrong and I feel like I'm watching them like a hawk.
    - dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
      It's called the Supermarket Scanning Code of Conduct. If it scans wrong, you get the first one free, and the rest at the proper price. It's designed to keep the ACCC off their back. I used to do it all the time - it's great when they stuff up prices on expensive items like Razors. One time I went back every day and got a free pack and ended up with several years worth of (free) expensive razors in surplus! Usually the manager needs to come because the basic checkout person doesn't know about it.
a_c 4y ago
First the tipping. Then the tipping after forced tipping. And the consideration is on whether to tip the tip or tip sans tip. Mind blown. Can you not pay the random additional charges on the bill? What are the consequences? In UK some restaurants charge an optional service charge and we are free to opt out. What happen to you if you accept a job offer and the employer deduct 12.5% from it because HR service fee? Both situations are taking money from your pocket with a hidden fee. Would the discussiom be "do I pay tax pre or post HR service fee"?
bojangleslover 4y ago
I stayed at a hotel last summer which charged an “urban fee”
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
crazygringo 4y ago
Note that drip pricing for restaurants (e.g. 10-20% non-tip surcharge) is illegal in many jurisdictions (if not "conspicuously advertised" before eating), but some restaurants try to do it anyways (claiming the policy is "conspicuously advertised" on the last page of the menu, or a tiny sign behind the bar). Sometimes you can just refuse to pay it and they'll back down because they want a repeat customer more. Sometimes they'll insist, but you can still just... not pay it, if you don't plan on going back. It's not like they're going to call the police, and you're paying the main bill. Unfortunately, it's not infrequent for restaurants to also withhold any unpaid part of the bill from a server's tips. That's usually illegal as well, but most servers would rather keep their job than complain. So you might think you're not paying the restaurant, but then it's the server who suffers. In other words, literally everything about this sucks.
- lolinder 4y ago
  > Sometimes they'll insist, but you can still just... not pay it, if you don't plan on going back. It's not like they're going to call the police, and you're paying the main bill. This only works if you have enough cash on hand to cover the main bill or you're able to be really pushy and get them to run only the main bill on the card.
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    Yup, you definitely have to be willing to waste 10+ minutes of polite arguing and be willing to insist they run only the main bill or you'll walk out without paying anything at all. Which in many (most?) social situations, it's not worth doing. But if you're willing to take a moral stand against sneaky surcharges, maybe you care enough. Again, literally everything about it sucks.
    - II2II 4y ago
      Restaurants must be happy that I am not the type of person who eats out more than once or twice a year. I don't tip unless there is table service. I withhold tips if the quality of the product is bad (sorry servers). Even in social situations. That doesn't mean I don't tip when it is appropriate, but I view it as more of an incentive for good service than to reinforce bad business practices. I'm not sure how I would respond to sneaky surcharges since I haven't encountered it. Most likely, I would pay and never go back. If the amount was excessive and I was on my own, I would likely protest it and never go back.
evancox100 4y ago
Restaurant down the street from me also has a 20% surcharge added but they explicitly tell you a tip is not expected. Asking for both is just nuts!
Dowwie 4y ago
Contractors have been doing this for decades. Here are two examples of the scam. The roof of your property needs replacing. You call a few roofers to come by and give an estimate for work. You choose the cheapest roofer, who uses the same materials as the others and has been allegedly in the family-run business for the last 125 years. After the first half of day's work, the shingles of the old roof were removed. The proprietor contacts you and gives you bad news that there are several sections of wood that rotted away and they recommend you not apply new shingle to it as it will never fasten. It will cost additional to replace these parts, naturally, and the cost ranges from hundreds to thousands of dollars. The problem with this situation is that there is always wood paneling that needs replacing. You never just replace shingles without replacing a few wood panels. The next scenario involves masonry. The limestone steps of your outdoor stairs is cracking and the brick needs re-pointing. You bring in a few contractors to give estimates for the repair work. Once you've contracted work, at the end of the first day you are contacted by the proprietor who informs you that there is nothing but sand holding your stairs up and they cannot work with sand. You have to rebuild the stairs, laying concrete for each step. Only then, can limestone steps be safely installed. It will cost several thousands of dollars more for this work. Both contractors engage in drip pricing, waiting for you to be along the way with their work, leaving you to decide whether to stop the project, accuse you of breach of contract, and exploit your vulnerabilities for not having a roof or stairs. Both roof and stairs projects required work that the contractors were not forthright about. Both gave a partial price for estimates and wait to have you over a barrel before you pay the full amount.
- lxgr 4y ago
  This definitely sounds bad, but at least in custom services, I can imagine scenarios where it's not possible to give an accurate estimate before starting the actual work (and already incurring cost in the process). There is just no justification at all for goods and services with a uniform sticker price, such as a meal in a restaurant. If you can program it into a POS, you can print it on the price tag.
  - newaccount74 4y ago
    An honest contractor tells you ahead of time. They'll say, this is how much it costs to replace the roof tiles, here's how much it would cost to replace the framing if necessary. It's not like rotten wood under the roof is a complete surprise to anyone.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
karaterobot 4y ago
Well, that made me irrationally angry, considering it's never happened to me personally. Has this kind of thing been tested in court?
jmugan 4y ago
Resort fees at hotels may not be the ultimate evil, but they're close.
anigbrowl 4y ago
Great analysis. Adversarial pricing/information strategies are offensive and represent a form of cognitive theft from the public. I greatly resent the fact that the advertised price of goods and services in many US jurisdictions is simply not reliable because sales tax is typically not included. If a vendor wants to display information at the point of sale or on a receipt about how X% of the price consists of direct taxes, I have no issue with that. But having to pre-emptively apply it to every price signal or budgetary allocation adds a non-negligible overhead to the detriment of consumers. Consider a person doing grocery shopping on a limited budget, say $50. Before entering the store, the consumer must mentally reduce the $50 in their pocket to $45 (if sales tax is 10%) and then keep that limit in mind while shopping, in addition to evaluating product value by per-unit cost (which some retailers display clearly and others don't), nutritional content, coupon or discount offers, and much else. For utilities and many other services, the opacity level rises drastically, making budgeting substantially more difficult. Add in the fact that pre-payment for things like phone plans often costs more than recurring charges, punishing those who try to manage limited or uncertain cash flow with thrift. And the people most likely to struggle with economic insecurity are the least educated. In other countries where this is not the norm, prices of many goods seem high and disposable income correspondingly looks a lot smaller. But if you see something you want to buy advertised for €100 and you have €100 in your pocket, a winner is you. A few US businesses take a different approach or clearly signal '$X out the door' on sales adverts, and I try to make a point of thanking them for the practice as well as just giving them my money. I think it's important that they get positive feedback.
jimt1234 4y ago
IMHO, the larger goal of "drip pricing" is breaking down the association between products and their price, so that, ultimately, the price of a product isn't what consumers are willing to pay, but how much money a company decides to charge. Confused/powerless consumers isn't a bug, it's a feature of the modern consumer economy.
adrianmonk 4y ago
I support restaurants breaking out health insurance as a separate charge so that it's very conspicuous. In the restaurant industry, it isn't customary to provide health insurance benefits. (It shouldn't be that way, but right now, in the US, it is.) If a restaurant is going to try to treat their employees better, it's crucial for customers understand why they're paying more. Otherwise, they'll just think it's a bad deal and go to another restaurant. Then the restaurant will have to stop providing insurance. I don't think you can make it work if it's built into the price. You can try telling people about it and putting up signs, but you'll run up against two unfortunate laws of human nature: people don't listen, and they don't read. This add-on fee should be disclosed beforehand as prominently as possible so that you don't get charge more than you expected. But I think it needs to be a separate fee. Otherwise, I just don't see how you can get customers to understand that your food prices are comparable to other restaurants.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Why should it be that way? Why should health insurance be the responsibility of an employer at all? It is in the US, for historical reasons as an unintended consequence of WWII-era price and wage controls, but I don't understand why we continue to think that makes any sense at all.
  - adrianmonk 4y ago
    I don't actually want restaurants to be the ones providing health insurance. I want the workers to have insurance. Within the framework of the laws that exist today (which, like you, I think should be changed), there are tax advantages for employers that provide it, so that's the most practical approach right now.
    - pixelatedindex 4y ago
      > I don't actually want restaurants to be the ones providing health insurance. I want the workers to have insurance. Then who provides this insurance? Are you saying they should buy their own via Obamacare?
malikNF 4y ago
We need to stop giving this kind of practices special names and call them what they actually are, fraud. If you show me one price and zoink! charge me another price you are deceiving me. That pretty much fraud to me and I will avoid your services.
SoftTalker 4y ago
Car sales too. You have various fees and taxes that are not part of the posted price, and then the high-pressure pushes to buy extended warranties, paint protection, upholstery protection, etc. all of which are nearly pure profit for the dealer.
flemhans 4y ago
Is there any place to purchase airline tickets at e.g. cost + 15%, with no BS?
- toast0 4y ago
  Cost of your seat on the plane is hard to determine before the fact. Depends on how many people were on the plane, what route it ended up taking (so how much fuel was used and how many hours were logged), assumptions about depreciation, which staff were on it, since different pilots have different wages, etc. If you don't want BS, I recommend living near an airport that's a hub for an airline, and always book on that airline from their website if they serve your destination with no connections. Bonus points if they don't do a lot of BS anyway. Try to plan several months out, and prices will at least be OK. Otherwise, call a charter company and they probably don't have a lot of margin or BS. It's just really spendy, because you're going to have to pay for the time you're in the plane as well as the time to get to where you can get in.
jeffbee 4y ago
A cafe near me started adding "shuumi land tax" on the price of a cup of coffee. It's fine by me if they want to participate in some weird scheme were they rent land from some native tribe who are long gone, but don't pass it through to me. Another place started charging 25¢ on to-go coffee cups which I assumed was some city litter tax so I asked for my coffee "for here" and the guy tapped the terminal a few times and it changed into a 25¢ "for here" surcharge! Naturally I do not frequent either of those places any more.
xbar 4y ago
I am not loving that I have to read my entire menu as if it were a contract.
imroot 4y ago
Hotels are horrible for this. This is what my itemized stay was for a single night: 2023-01-18 * Residence Inn expenses:travel:marriott 171.00 USD expenses:taxes:salestax:tx 10.26 USD expenses:taxes:salestax:tx:plano 11.97 USD ; city hotel tax expenses:fees:recovery 1.28 USD ; tax recovery fee expenses:fees:recovery 2.13 USD ; parking recovery fee expenses:taxes:salestax:tx .18 USD ; taxes on parking recovery fee. assets:checking -196.82 USD ; date: 1/20 A $2.13 "Parking Recovery Fee" is charged to cover the expense in building their parking garage...and then, they charge me another sales tax on top of the parking recovery fee, then charging me a recovery fee because they need to recover the credit card fees charged on the city and state sales tax items. Resort fees are also becoming more and more common, even in hotels that shouldn't need a "resort fee" -- if I'm staying at an Embassy Suites in the middle of nowhere, Iowa, why do I need to pay a resort fee?
- version_five 4y ago
  I once had a hotel charge me a $30 per night "urban fee" - literally it was called that- on top of the advertised nightly rate. It was for work travel so I just payed it. I emailed them (I know pointlessly) to tell them I was never coming back (it was a hotel i used to go to a lot) and they just ignored me. Imo it's criminal, and it also looks pathetic for the companies doing it. I have a company, and if I charged made-up fees to my clients after quoting them a price, they'd tell me to get lost and I'd lose their business. You can always tell who has inappropriate market power
- iceTA 4y ago
  Ah, a fellow (h)ledger/beancount user :)
- jen20 4y ago
  > why do I need to pay a resort fee? Two reasons, neither of which is acceptable in my mind: 1: to reduce the price shown in aggregator websites (as the original article talks about) 2: to enact a stealth reduction in the value of points, since you cannot stay simply by redeeming them.
solarkraft 4y ago
I can't help it: > the practice is spreading like a contagion into new vertical Not where I live (Europe).
HelixEndeavor 4y ago
Waffle House is an interesting example for me - it's one of the few establishments that outright declares on its menu that all food prices already include sales tax. Yet you still have to tip your server, of course. But then, if you order take out, that's either called in or ordered in person, a pre-detetmined "tip" is applied to your total, in essence a fee for takeout that is evenly distributed among the staff. But *then,* if you order takeout online, not only are you subject to the takeout fee, but sales tax is applied to the prices that supposedly already include sales tax! What the heck?
cute_boi 4y ago
This is a pattern I see everywhere. The last time I purchased Verizon FiOS, there was a big $25 per month advertisement. I purchased it. Later, I realized it is only for the select 5g plan. I have to 5g plan, but later I realized it is only for the "selected" 5g plan which I don't qualify. They didn't mention it during the order, I only realized that on the first billing. The only solution is to make sure all tipping, taxes, etc. is included in the menu. Unless it is codified I am not sure anything is gonna happen soon.
viraptor 4y ago
At least at smaller restaurants this is easier to take a stand against than with Airbnb. Unless it's a huge chain, it doesn't take many negative reviews on Google maps or whatever is the common local service for the owners to notice what behaviour is not ok. "1 star, they tried to add X% fee sneakily" can do wonders.
abruzzi 4y ago
I haven't encountered anything that egregious but in the last year or so, a number of local resaurants have started charing the CC fee back to you, and in some cases, way more than the CC fee is likely to be (i.e. 5% or 7%). It seem to be associated with some of the fancy new payment processors--evey place I go with an old fashioned CC machine doesn't do this, but the fancy touch screen one seem to have that feature and some of the local restaurants are abusing it. As I learn about them, I try to avoid the restaurants that do that.
- shortcake27 4y ago
  In Australia we’ve got it good - businesses can only pass on the fee that they’re charged by the payment processor.
smeagull 4y ago
Just leave in that situation.
strawhatguy 4y ago
Only silver lining that can come from this is that this offers a path to fold wait staff into this service charge, and maybe we can drop the tipping culture nonsense in the US (still may need to drop the income tax in order to do so, though). But yeah, I wouldn’t return to a restaurant that pulled this sh*t, and I’m not tipping if I get suckered into one that does.
antisthenes 4y ago
If I see any "fee" that approaches 20%, I'm simply not leaving another "tip" on top of it. End of story. I am also not feeling guilty about it, because I'm likely never visiting that establishment again.
sliken 4y ago
Comcast sold me on an "upgrade", more bandwidth, free HBO, and less per month. Till the deal expired, then they added a $10 a month "broadcast fee". I only wanted internet, but they denied my request to switch to an internet plan. I had to cancel the service and switch the bill to another person to get an internet plan. Since then the broadcast fee has increased several times, it's insane.
SergeAx 4y ago
US is the only place on Earth where I found out that a sale tax is added to price tags in grocery store at the moment of check-out. I remember my astonishment the first time I faced that abomination. How's that even possible, what is the reason behind it?
- petilon 4y ago
  The reason behind is that the product manufacturers and distributors want consumers to know how much they are paying in taxes. If consumers don't know, then politicians will be free to hike up taxes as much as they want. Adding government-mandated charges separately is not a big problem, in my opinion. The big problem is when businesses hide a portion of their actual price under "fees". And the fees are not disclosed upfront. As an example of various fees see the AT&T example [1]. [1] https://www.att.com/legal/terms.otherWirelessFeeSchedule.html https://www.att.com/legal/terms.otherWirelessFeeSchedule.htm...
- dudul 4y ago
  Transparency, so you know what the government is taxing.
  - unmole 4y ago
    That can be accomplished by including the tax breakdown in the bill. In fact, that's exactly what's done in many countries.
m1117 4y ago
Get back at them with a nice google maps review. They deserve it. Could just include that into the price lol.
tzs 4y ago
The most memorable example I've seen of a business sneaking higher prices past consumers was an apartment building I lived in. Let's say apartments were $1000/month. They announced that rent was going up to $1200/month, but if you signed a new one year lease the rent would be $0 for the first two months of the lease. That meant that for the next year you would have paid 12 months @ $1000/month if the rate had stayed the same, and under the new rate you would pay 2 months @ $0/month + 10 months @ $1200/month. Those are both $12000, so you are still paying $12000/year. A year later when it was time for people to renew their leases management said "Good news! No rent increase this year! Your rent is staying at $1200/month!". I think I may have been the only tenant who realized that this was actually an increase of $2400/year over what we'd paid the previous two years. Everyone else seemed to actually think that the annual rent was the same as the year before and the year before that.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  Boy ... I m shocked that nobody understands this. This is plain simple math.
CraigRo 4y ago
When I see this, I multiply the charge by 2 and deduct it from the tip paid to the server and add a note. I don't like surprise charges, and I feel that the restaurant should charge appropriately and transparently in order to pay its employees. It isn't my responsibility as a guest to pay for the food as well as the back and front of house staff separately.
mrridiculezz 4y ago
My favorite drip pricing technique is when you are asked for a tip while picking up carry-out pizza. Just ridiculous.
dawnerd 4y ago
SeaWorld does this at their parks and it’s absolutely ridiculous. They put it as tiny fine print on their restaurant menu boards (which are electronic). There’s no excuse for not just raising prices.
BonoboIO 4y ago
I would call this plain FRAUD, if this was not mentioned in the menu in big letters or presented by the waiter. This is just wrong. I would refuse to pay their „out of thin air“ charge. Seriously. If those things, would be only visible after I payed like on a kiosk or something, I would dispute the charge and report their fraud to my credit card company. Good luck doing that often.
ornornor 4y ago
Never understood how any of that is legal. The price is the price, why would you be allowed to break it down into many small components and only advertise one of the components until it’s time to settle the bill? And of course the addons are things that will guilt trip you into not being picky about them like “staff appreciation”, “healthcare fee”, etc. Why not “owners greediness surcharge” or “I’m too cheap to pay my people living wages fee”?
BizarroLand 4y ago
Every time some company finds a new way to trade their morals for profits, it creates a system where every other company must also trade their morals or be out competed. Eventually we will reach a new equilibrium where every company has sold their morals and then they have to either start competing again on a new front or find new morals to sell. I don't have a pithy takeaway from this. It's capitalism.
- 27153 4y ago
  See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
nojvek 4y ago
> A pernicious aspect of drip pricing is that, as it becomes more common, businesses that do not do it will feel pressure to follow suit; The honest restaurant is at a distinct competitive disadvantage despite providing a superior customer experience. This article reminds me of 'Meditations on Moloch' https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ The multi-agent trap. In some competition optimizing for X, the opportunity arises to throw some other value under the bus for improved X. Those who take it prosper. Those who don’t take it die out. Eventually, everyone’s relative status is about the same as before, but everyone’s absolute status is worse than before. The process continues until all other values that can be traded off have been, but relative X is still the same. There’s a passage in the Principia Discordia where Malaclypse complains to the Goddess about the evils of human society. “Everyone is hurting each other, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war.” The Goddess answers: “What is the matter with that, if it’s what you want to do?” Malaclypse: “But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!” Goddess: “Oh. Well, then stop.” Malaclypse: “But we can't, because everyone else is doing it!”
alliao 4y ago
sounds like an easy enough issue for honest operators "no hidden fees"

317 points by 27153 4y ago

I've always wanted to send AT&T an invoice on a contract and add in my taxes after the fact.

Is this kind of scam legal anywhere? Isn't it a contract? I will sell you this little doggy in the window for $50 the customer says "ok" then seller says " so that will be $80 plus tax".

KoenDG 4y ago

Sounds like a case of pissing on people's leg and telling em it's raining.

sillyapple 4y ago

I am going to open a restaurant where everything is $1 and in tiny text at the bottom of the menu explain that you also pay a $19 Price Convince Fee per item.

nhchris 4y ago

How is this not textbook false advertising?

27153 4y ago
Looks like the FTC is aware of it but I'm not sure that there have been any regulations against it yet. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events/2012/05/economics-drip-pricing https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events/2012/05/economics-dri... According to Wikipedia there were some strongly worded letters sent to some hotel operators... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing

bradleyjg 4y ago

This is far worse than Airbnb. As annoying as the cleaning fees are, they are disclosed before you obligate yourself. A 20% fee only disclosed after you’ve already ordered and eaten is just fraud.

benatkin 4y ago
Not to mention that you can search for AirBnbs that have lower cleaning fees.
- hadlock 4y ago
  Once they started including cleaning fees on the regular, often for as much as a single night's stay, I've largely curtailed my use of the service, and have gone back to hotels. Very occasionally, like for an out of state wedding, especially out in the country where hotel options are limited, we'll still at least glance at airbnb type services. I used to really like airbnb but instead of undercutting hotels on price they're often significantly higher, along with significant risk of an unpredictable or even bad experience. Staying at a chain hotel virtually guarantees no unexpected issues and no unexpected charges or drama. The last experience I had with airbnb (two years ago) the host grilled me on why I wanted a last minute booking (pandemic staycation baby-moon). Was not thrilled with the experience. When you book with a hotel all they ask you is for your ID and if you want a king or two queen beds.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    A single night's stay is actually a great use of a cleaning fee, because the cost of cleaning can't be spread between multiple nights.
alistairSH 4y ago
This. The other industries mentioned might tack on fees at check-out time, but the service/product hasn't yet been consumed, so the consumer can back out. This isn't true with dining out, where you see a price list, order, eat, and then get a bill at the end. You can no longer opt to eat elsewhere. You either make a scene or pay the undisclosed fees. Restaurants should at least put a notice on the menu in a highly visible location, but even that isn't going to be foolproof. Really, this practice should be banned everywhere. As a consumer, I largely don't give a shit what expenses a vendor has; I only care about the final price. I can see an argument for disclosing regulatory fees, because as a resident/citizen, I can at least lobby politicians to change those fees. But, even that's a bit of a crap argument.

wccrawford 4y ago

I thought it was already illegal to force a change of price after fulfilling your half of the deal? Unless the customer agrees to these fees before service, I don't think you can legally force them to pay it. If they do it without question, of course they can get away with it.

changoplatanero 4y ago
They should get the state attorney general to look into it
jawns 4y ago
They likely have the sign posted in a place that is easy enough for diners to miss as they enter, but still prominent enough to fulfill legal requirements about giving customers notice of the fee.

Invictus0 4y ago

Don't pay it! Tell the restaurant to remove the fee or you walk. You can hand the waitress cash for her tip directly.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Yes, do not sign the receipt if it includes hidden charges and hit them with a chargeback if they refuse.
flemhans 4y ago
I wouldn't even tip after such an attempt to be defrauded. Sorry for the waitstaff, and I hope they find a job elsewhere.

vr46 4y ago

In America. This would not fly in Europe, I hope. Pretty sure menus have to be displayed out front with full pricing and service charges have their own rules.

nickthegreek 4y ago
Wouldn't fly in much of America either. Try this in the midwest and I'm pretty sure your restaurant would be closing in weeks.
- SL61 4y ago
  Yeah, I live in an area that straddles the line between the midwest and the south, and I haven't seen anything like this. Same for the QR-code-only menus that the internet has been complaining about lately. I'm sure that if one local restaurant implemented this they wouldn't last long, but if a lot of local restaurants started doing it at the same time, they'd probably get away with it. Maybe they're all waiting for someone else to take the plunge.
duxup 4y ago
>In America. America is a big place, so is Europe. I wouldn't expect this to fly in a lot of places in America either. I've seen a place in America where they tried it and it failed.
- lavezzi 4y ago
  The same concept is already heavily ingrained in American culture. Try and name a place that provides you with a price quote up front that is already inclusive of all taxes and fees.
  - IX-103 4y ago
    The gas station
- flumpcakes 4y ago
  In Europe it is illegal to sell things without tax and fees included (unless it is B2B but they still include VAT listed next to the non-VAT price) so they couldn't even try this. Saying that I have started seeing gratuity automatically applied to some of my bills... So perhaps it's not as illegal as I thought...

civilized 4y ago

I will sometimes succumb to drip pricing for the reasons given (already received service, already done research and made purchase choice, etc) but I remember and avoid giving them repeat business. I don't have time for scammers. Best remedy is to cut them out of my life.

mox1 4y ago
Unfortunately you are in the minority, in general these hidden or drip fees increase revenue[1]. 1. https://therooster.com/articles/stubhub-experiment-shows-that-customers-will-pay-more-for-tickets-if-hidden-fees-are-added-at-check-out https://therooster.com/articles/stubhub-experiment-shows-tha...
- civilized 4y ago
  Doesn't seem to address the long-term impact. Only shows that people will pay what is asked in the moment, which I don't dispute.

adamwong246 4y ago

All the more reason to stay home and cook your own food.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
flemhans 4y ago
It's still sad when options are being limited. A nice world would have high-quality affordable produce for home cooking as well as affordable dining out. Dining out should be cheaper than cooking yourself, since they can optimize the process and buy in bulk.

duxup 4y ago

A local restaurant tired a wellness fee (it was actually a small %) in my area (Midwest USA), got a ton of bad press, traffic when I went by looked like it had dropped off significantly. They survived but according to the manager I spoke to only because they were owned by a restaurant group that had income from other restaurant without a wellness fee. They made a big public statement, emails, flyers, about reverting the fee and so on and eventually recovered.

grouchomarx 4y ago

I've seen this over and over in SF and now rarely eat out. Many friends and coworkers are taking the same approach, most of whom never used to cook at home. Scamming your customers 5, 10, 20% at a time doesn't seem like a great long term strategy

mihaaly 4y ago
I just wanted to say that this practice backfires with me. Those want to excercise such tactics better be in the 'deceive a large amount of persons once then go under and repeat' kind of business because they will never see me again. Assuming they could scam me once. Which is harder and harder by each passing occasions others give the liberty to themselves. Being tired of being scammed got me to reacting harsh even to a faint smell of such and make my stand. Especially when they try to wrap it into supposedly guilt triggering tactics like calling it Fair Wage fee, only to expose how unfair they are with their employees. Those wan't to engage in fair and transparent practices will meet my appreciation as it is so hard meeting such services I want to hang on to them and pay fair prices without forcing on me.
floren 4y ago
https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-What-is-this-SF-Mandates-13254923.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/restaurants/article/Explainer-Wh...
UberFly 4y ago
Exactly. My solution is also to just not eat out. Like the article says though, it's unfair to the businesses that choose not to do this. Maybe the solution is to just not pay extras if places don't disclose all costs up front.
rqtwteye 4y ago
Same for me. I am feeling more and more that a lot of businesses are becoming more and more dishonest and are basically just trying to rip their customers off. I don't enjoy concerts, sports or restaurants anymore because of this and lately I also resent going shopping at places that have one of the tablet checkouts that tries to guilt trip into a 20% tip. One more reason to become cynical. As if the world isn't cynical enough already.

voakbasda 4y ago

Boost Mobile did this recently when my wife and I switched cell carriers. They advertised a $30/month/line plan (after a 3-month introductory period at an even lower price), but we are now paying closer to $45. This has pissed me off enough that I want to look for another carrier, but this seems to be SOP for this industry. Telcos behave like nothing less than a criminal cartel, so I was hardly surprised by this play. Nice to know it has a name. Another comment here pointed out that the FTC is aware of this practice and has solicited comments from the public. Quoting from their linked article on `ftc.gov`: > FTC Chairman Jon Leibowitz asked consumers to share their drip pricing stories with the FTC. Consumers can call us at 1-877-FTC-HELP. I gave them a call, and the first thing the automated system informed me is that one can file a complaint online: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/

TuringNYC 4y ago
My favorite is when wireless carriers can charge a "Regulatory Recovery Fee", which is basically part of the price, but can magically change and magically appear on your bill. The fact that the FTC is fussed about free chat apps rather than wireless carrier practices in the US is obscene.
- myself248 4y ago
  You know it doesn't have to be one or the other, right? They can care about both?
  - claytonjy 4y ago
    They have limited resources, so caring about one they don't currently care about necessarily removes resources from something they currently care about.
  - TuringNYC 4y ago
    Regulatory recovery fees have been around for over 20yrs in the US. Sure, the FTC could tackle both, but they 20yrs have gone by, and you still cannot actually get the final price for a wireless contract in the US until after you sign up for a 2yr plan. Instead we're focusing on chat apps which were born in the past decade, require no 2yr plans, and for that matter, dont even cost money and have 50 free competitors. Great prioritization.

MDWolinski 4y ago

The concept of tipping is for "tipped" positions in restaurants. Someone in a Tipped position earns far less then minimum wage, which is made up by customer Tips. So this leads into my frustration with the proliferation of tipping, which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services), is someone working at Starbucks making tipped wages or at/above minimum. If it's the latter, then they shouldn't be tipped except in extraordinary customer service situations. It would be interesting to see how tips in restaurants that have drip pricing have changed since the implementation of them. All that being said, I love in France (and I'm sure other parts of Europe) where there's a service charge added to each bill and that's it. I can leave some extra coins if I wanted to, but otherwise additional tips are expected. There, wait staff are paid a livable wage.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services) In my experience, it existed before in the form of tip jars (in NYC area), but really blew up when tablet point of sale systems like Clover came into the picture. They earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar. And then the point of sale providers got even more greedy and removed the no tip option, and started making it so users had to press “custom tip” in order to tip zero or otherwise increase the friction of not tipping.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  > They [Clover] earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar. I have wondered about this as a possible motive. I assumed that shops paid a monthly fee, or perhaps a per-transaction fee. But they're paying based on gross revenue? Do all POS systems work this way?

dqv 4y ago

It would be nice to have bundle reform that requires all prices to be listed as taxes-and-fees-inclusive here in the US. Ok, it’s not going to happen federally, but I’d at least like it where I live. Changing prices is already regular maintenance, so the idea that this would place a burden on businesses is BS. If they have metadata at the cash register to know how to tax different items, they can have it at the label printer too. And for ecommerce, it’s even easier. As to the wellness fee, I would be way more receptive to the 20% increase being included in the menu prices with a note about what that 20% does.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>It would be nice to have bundle reform that requires all prices to be listed as taxes-and-fees-inclusive here in the US No no no no Taxes should be listed for atleast 3 reasons 1. The company is not paying the tax, you are. You owe the tax not the company, the company is merely collecting the tax for the government. In many states the company is paid to collect this tax on the governments behalf. If the tax was not collected at time of purchase you still owe the government the money 2. Hiding taxation is never a good thing, Taxes we pay should be transparent to everyone as they are extractions from the economy and we should be fully aware of the amount of money the government is stealing errr extracting from us at all times 3. Tax increases are blamed on the merchant if they are hidden in the price instead of on the government where they belong, this makes is politically easier to raise the sales taxes if it is all hidden from the consumer. If a state goes from 8 to 10% people will notice that tax went up instead of the price. This is one of the reasons why of you look historically gas taxes have increased far more than the sales tax rate, because gas taxes are hidden into the price of gas where sales taxes are not.
- hyperman1 4y ago
  Here in Belgium (and most of Europe), we basically do both. Each line on a bill has 3 numbers: the untaxed price, the tax or tax rate, the taxed price. There are also 3 totals.
- eadler 4y ago
  I like how the UK does it. Total final price is the one on the sticker but tax is listed on the receipt. Something like Sticker : $100 Receipt Price: $92 Tax: $8 Total: $100

olliej 4y ago

The important thing about the bs “fair wage fees”, is that because they’re not tips or anything protected the employer has no legal obligation to pass it on to the staff. Which is the point.

jasode 4y ago

A reddit thread made the front page with a similar example of surprise "Economic Recovery Fee" added onto the restaurant bill: https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/10gowkx/first_fancy_dinner_in_god_knows_when_and_got/ https://old.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/10gowkx/... If a government watchdog like FTC doesn't stop this or a new explicit law that only allows "total final price" clearly displayed before purchase, it means every type of business will want to play the "Ticketmaster-convenience-fees" game by creatively coming up with new fees. If businesses are trying to get more money, they should do it by transparently raising prices instead of tricking people into paying hidden fees.

silisili 4y ago
> If businesses are trying to get more money, they should do it by transparently raising prices instead of tricking people into paying hidden fees. Yup. This seems like a terrible long term strategy. If I'd eaten expecting $X, and the total is now $X + $Y, and they have the nerve to remind me it's not a tip, I'm probably not leaving a tip, and I'm -definitely- not coming back. Most cities are rather static in populace. This is a great way to see yourself out of business for a tiny short term profit.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Some restaurants get the vast majority of their business from tourists who would never be repeat customers regardless. Those restaurants might think they can get away with such fees. But those restaurants are highly dependent on Yelp reviews et al; such fees are a great way to get bad reviews.
cute_boi 4y ago
Does the link have some issues? I see a hair in the upper right part of the screen and it scrolls too. I thought it was my hair strand and tried to remove it. I realized it was not my hair and then suspect my monitor has damaged. Opened a new tab and finally realized it was the page haha.
- 4y ago

avitous 4y ago

Just say no. If the added fees are known up front, take business elsewhere. If they're only revealed after the fact, I would become That Ugly Customer, and they would never get my business again. If enough do this, then behaviors will change, especially if such businesses are retaliated against. As they should be.

iinnPP 4y ago
It's so strange that we go out of our way to discount the only people in society who are trying to correct issues like fraud. Businesses defrauding customers with brain-dead customers attacking people standing up for their consumer rights. Absolute insanity.

ok_dad 4y ago

I have had the exact same T-Mobile account and plans for more than 10 years now, and I have seen my monthly bill go from ~$82 to ~$86 today because of additional fees. The bulk of my plan has been the exact same, just additional or increased fees for the extra $4. It's not much money, but it's the principle that they can adjust my costs upwards without me consenting, essentially forever, that pisses me off.

No1 4y ago
They spend all that money on the #feeface marketing campaign, and then tack on fees. It’s like they’re tying to taunt their customers.

renewiltord 4y ago

Interesting. I used to either go to Peets or Starbucks, and after a while exclusively the latter because of the annoying Peets tip thing which I never know what to put on. Is a $2.5 Americano a $1 tip? Who the hell knows? Anyway, I eventually stopped going to Peets. Then a year passes and Starbucks started this shit. The local workers do that embarrassed "and there's a new extra button you have to hit" thing, but it was just a bit more annoying and now I just use the Nespresso pods at work. We just got a bunch more of them. My colleagues just use the app which doesn't involve that interaction and then they go pick up. It's probably a strange pet peeve of mine, but having to think about whether I'm disappointing this service worker or being impolite to them or pick the right price or whatever is costly enough that I'd rather just not interact with them. It's also why I like the market delis, Chipotle, and Sweetgreen so much. You just show up, grab what you want, pay, and walk out. Smooth experience.

TehShrike 4y ago
When I go to Starbucks now I always order in the app first and pick up at the counter, even if I'm already there.
no_wizard 4y ago
I've never been prompted to tip at the Starbucks drive through in my area. I pay using the app after loading up the gift card (you get more stars this way). I'm very much tired of the explosion of tipping culture though. Now fast food wants me to tip workers. This was definitely not the norm when I was growing up, or even pre COVID, and as far as I'm aware, they're all hourly workers that started making pretty good wages in due part thanks to staffing shortages (McDonalds was hiring for 18-20 USD an hour, pretty big increase) I feel like service industries and restaurants are doing anything they can to push costs onto the consumer without raising "official" prices. Like they all employed the same sociology consultants and they discovered what social levers they can instrument to get people to pay more without "paying" more. I been seeing these "economic recovery fees", "COVID safety fees" and other nonsense too. I eat alot more at home now.

pjsg 4y ago

I always object to US retail adding Tax to the price of the items. In the UK (and I expect Europe) the price on the shelf is the price that you pay. VAT is included. In the US, you walk into a store and have to become an expert at understanding local taxes in order to figure out how much anything costs. Hotels often have four of five extra fees tacked on. I'd like "The price you see is the price you pay" to be the rule.

duxup 4y ago
Hotels and some things are a huge mess. But generally your random consumer buying a random widget has some idea about what taxes are involved and roughly what to expect when they buy specific consumer goods / the machine tells them what to pay. It's complex if you want to do the math and get the exact number each time, but for most transactions it's a fairly small amount / not something you need to think about / need to know the exact number. If I go pickup a burrito I'm not worrying about if it is $10 or $10.25. If I wanted to worry about that it is possible to figure that out without knowing all the taxes myself.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  In my experience, hotels show total cost prominently. Go to Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt/IHG/choice/Wyndham websites, and before you can reserve, it will show you total cost and list potential parking/pet/resort/other fees.
- lxgr 4y ago
  But the vendor needs to figure out the exact number anyway at checkout! It's not like they get to avoid the calculation effort this way.
myself248 4y ago
Most places in the US, the local tax is the same statewide. Not in Ohio, where it can vary by township, sometimes across invisible boundaries. I once attended a large flea-market where such a boundary cut through the fairgrounds. Taxes were different on one side of the line than the other. It's so bad that Ohio actually has a mobile app that uses your phone's GPS to figure out which jurisdiction you're in and show the applicable tax rate. If I say mean things about Ohio from time to time, this is part of why.

gpvos 4y ago

Is this even legal, unless it's marked very clearly on the menu? Also it's an excellent way to make sure you have no repeat customers.

rags2riches 4y ago

"I wanted you to know I apply a 50 per cent After the Fact discount to all my meals. The details are on my homepage."

itronitron 4y ago
"Click accept to continue"

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

In some countries it would be illegal. If you haven't seen the additional fee before ordering and they mention it only afterwards, it's a fraud. Personally, I can't imagine I would pay it. Yes, I don't shy away from a confrontation.

JTbane 4y ago
It ought to be illegal, I've went to a take-out place that had a tiny note card taped to the counter where no one EVER looks before ordering: "optional" COVID surcharge.

junon 4y ago

I would simply walk out. This shouldn't be legal. In every spirit of the law, this is malicious.

idopmstuff 4y ago

What really gets me at restaurants is that they often don't disclose this on the menu up front. I've started taking pictures of menus when I eat out, so when the bill comes and there's a 4% surcharge, I can be sure that it was not disclosed. I think if you disclose it, it's annoying but hey, free markets and all that. If you don't disclose it and charge people extra, I think that's just downright dishonest. The upside is that they will take it off 100% of the time - the waiter will almost always do it, and on the rare occasion that they have to get a manager, the manager will always do it. I never bitch at the waitstaff about it, but if they make me talk to a manager, I absolutely bitch at the manager.

monksy 4y ago
You should be sending the pictures of the reciept and the menu to your attorney general. Typically hidden non-tax fees are not legal if you never mention it early on.
- idopmstuff 4y ago
  Honestly, the cost/benefit ratio isn't just there. Leaving a one star review on Yelp is both faster and probably more likely to have an impact on the restaurant.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    Tell your credit card company. They overcharged you intentionally... fraudulently.
  - monksy 4y ago
    Those get burried, and maanged out by social media marketers. Also it doesn't stop the behavior as quickly. Those people are defrauding the people who go there.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago

That’s ridiculous. Refuse to pay it, and put the restaurant on blast on social media.

aetherspawn 4y ago

In Australia it is simpler. The staff all get paid an award wage that is set by the government, and it is plenty, around $24/hr or more depending on age. This makes our food somewhat expensive: at least $20 for a sit-in meal, around $4.50 for a coffee. But what you see on the menu is what you pay and includes tax: tipping is not in our culture, and I have never seen drip charging here except on public holidays (“public holiday surcharge”). Our consumer rights laws probably protect our right to walk away and not pay undisclosed drip charges, although it has never happened to me. — Admittedly, the award wage makes it difficult for newly established bootstrapped businesses to hire their first staff. For example, we were looking at hiring a graduate engineer, but the award wage was around $40/hr after benefits (superannuation etc), and then there is mandatory Work Cover insurance on top of that. Legally we can’t hire anyone below this amount because Fair Work would have a field day suing us, so we put it off until we can afford to pay, but without financing the leap we are maybe stuck in a catch 22.

Psychlist 4y ago
Not just that, it's a legal requirement that the price advertised is the price you pay. The ACCC will enforce this. It's why, for example, the supermarket ogliopoly have a "if it's mispriced it's free" policy, they got fined for inaccurate pricing and tried to turn it into a PR win. Airlines and ticketmaster are currently fighting to change it but now we have a less right-wing federal government again hopefully the ACCC will be allowed to do their job.
- pedalpete 4y ago
  I didn't know about the "if it's mischarged it's free" policy. My local supermarket (not Coles or Woolies) always rings things in at the till wrong and I feel like I'm watching them like a hawk.
  - dhsysusbsjsi 4y ago
    It's called the Supermarket Scanning Code of Conduct. If it scans wrong, you get the first one free, and the rest at the proper price. It's designed to keep the ACCC off their back. I used to do it all the time - it's great when they stuff up prices on expensive items like Razors. One time I went back every day and got a free pack and ended up with several years worth of (free) expensive razors in surplus! Usually the manager needs to come because the basic checkout person doesn't know about it.

a_c 4y ago

First the tipping. Then the tipping after forced tipping. And the consideration is on whether to tip the tip or tip sans tip. Mind blown. Can you not pay the random additional charges on the bill? What are the consequences? In UK some restaurants charge an optional service charge and we are free to opt out. What happen to you if you accept a job offer and the employer deduct 12.5% from it because HR service fee? Both situations are taking money from your pocket with a hidden fee. Would the discussiom be "do I pay tax pre or post HR service fee"?

bojangleslover 4y ago

I stayed at a hotel last summer which charged an “urban fee”

deleted 4y ago

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crazygringo 4y ago

Note that drip pricing for restaurants (e.g. 10-20% non-tip surcharge) is illegal in many jurisdictions (if not "conspicuously advertised" before eating), but some restaurants try to do it anyways (claiming the policy is "conspicuously advertised" on the last page of the menu, or a tiny sign behind the bar). Sometimes you can just refuse to pay it and they'll back down because they want a repeat customer more. Sometimes they'll insist, but you can still just... not pay it, if you don't plan on going back. It's not like they're going to call the police, and you're paying the main bill. Unfortunately, it's not infrequent for restaurants to also withhold any unpaid part of the bill from a server's tips. That's usually illegal as well, but most servers would rather keep their job than complain. So you might think you're not paying the restaurant, but then it's the server who suffers. In other words, literally everything about this sucks.

lolinder 4y ago
> Sometimes they'll insist, but you can still just... not pay it, if you don't plan on going back. It's not like they're going to call the police, and you're paying the main bill. This only works if you have enough cash on hand to cover the main bill or you're able to be really pushy and get them to run only the main bill on the card.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Yup, you definitely have to be willing to waste 10+ minutes of polite arguing and be willing to insist they run only the main bill or you'll walk out without paying anything at all. Which in many (most?) social situations, it's not worth doing. But if you're willing to take a moral stand against sneaky surcharges, maybe you care enough. Again, literally everything about it sucks.
  - II2II 4y ago
    Restaurants must be happy that I am not the type of person who eats out more than once or twice a year. I don't tip unless there is table service. I withhold tips if the quality of the product is bad (sorry servers). Even in social situations. That doesn't mean I don't tip when it is appropriate, but I view it as more of an incentive for good service than to reinforce bad business practices. I'm not sure how I would respond to sneaky surcharges since I haven't encountered it. Most likely, I would pay and never go back. If the amount was excessive and I was on my own, I would likely protest it and never go back.

evancox100 4y ago

Restaurant down the street from me also has a 20% surcharge added but they explicitly tell you a tip is not expected. Asking for both is just nuts!

Dowwie 4y ago

Contractors have been doing this for decades. Here are two examples of the scam. The roof of your property needs replacing. You call a few roofers to come by and give an estimate for work. You choose the cheapest roofer, who uses the same materials as the others and has been allegedly in the family-run business for the last 125 years. After the first half of day's work, the shingles of the old roof were removed. The proprietor contacts you and gives you bad news that there are several sections of wood that rotted away and they recommend you not apply new shingle to it as it will never fasten. It will cost additional to replace these parts, naturally, and the cost ranges from hundreds to thousands of dollars. The problem with this situation is that there is always wood paneling that needs replacing. You never just replace shingles without replacing a few wood panels. The next scenario involves masonry. The limestone steps of your outdoor stairs is cracking and the brick needs re-pointing. You bring in a few contractors to give estimates for the repair work. Once you've contracted work, at the end of the first day you are contacted by the proprietor who informs you that there is nothing but sand holding your stairs up and they cannot work with sand. You have to rebuild the stairs, laying concrete for each step. Only then, can limestone steps be safely installed. It will cost several thousands of dollars more for this work. Both contractors engage in drip pricing, waiting for you to be along the way with their work, leaving you to decide whether to stop the project, accuse you of breach of contract, and exploit your vulnerabilities for not having a roof or stairs. Both roof and stairs projects required work that the contractors were not forthright about. Both gave a partial price for estimates and wait to have you over a barrel before you pay the full amount.

lxgr 4y ago
This definitely sounds bad, but at least in custom services, I can imagine scenarios where it's not possible to give an accurate estimate before starting the actual work (and already incurring cost in the process). There is just no justification at all for goods and services with a uniform sticker price, such as a meal in a restaurant. If you can program it into a POS, you can print it on the price tag.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  An honest contractor tells you ahead of time. They'll say, this is how much it costs to replace the roof tiles, here's how much it would cost to replace the framing if necessary. It's not like rotten wood under the roof is a complete surprise to anyone.

deleted 4y ago

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karaterobot 4y ago

Well, that made me irrationally angry, considering it's never happened to me personally. Has this kind of thing been tested in court?

jmugan 4y ago

Resort fees at hotels may not be the ultimate evil, but they're close.

anigbrowl 4y ago

Great analysis. Adversarial pricing/information strategies are offensive and represent a form of cognitive theft from the public. I greatly resent the fact that the advertised price of goods and services in many US jurisdictions is simply not reliable because sales tax is typically not included. If a vendor wants to display information at the point of sale or on a receipt about how X% of the price consists of direct taxes, I have no issue with that. But having to pre-emptively apply it to every price signal or budgetary allocation adds a non-negligible overhead to the detriment of consumers. Consider a person doing grocery shopping on a limited budget, say $50. Before entering the store, the consumer must mentally reduce the $50 in their pocket to $45 (if sales tax is 10%) and then keep that limit in mind while shopping, in addition to evaluating product value by per-unit cost (which some retailers display clearly and others don't), nutritional content, coupon or discount offers, and much else. For utilities and many other services, the opacity level rises drastically, making budgeting substantially more difficult. Add in the fact that pre-payment for things like phone plans often costs more than recurring charges, punishing those who try to manage limited or uncertain cash flow with thrift. And the people most likely to struggle with economic insecurity are the least educated. In other countries where this is not the norm, prices of many goods seem high and disposable income correspondingly looks a lot smaller. But if you see something you want to buy advertised for €100 and you have €100 in your pocket, a winner is you. A few US businesses take a different approach or clearly signal '$X out the door' on sales adverts, and I try to make a point of thanking them for the practice as well as just giving them my money. I think it's important that they get positive feedback.

jimt1234 4y ago

IMHO, the larger goal of "drip pricing" is breaking down the association between products and their price, so that, ultimately, the price of a product isn't what consumers are willing to pay, but how much money a company decides to charge. Confused/powerless consumers isn't a bug, it's a feature of the modern consumer economy.

adrianmonk 4y ago

I support restaurants breaking out health insurance as a separate charge so that it's very conspicuous. In the restaurant industry, it isn't customary to provide health insurance benefits. (It shouldn't be that way, but right now, in the US, it is.) If a restaurant is going to try to treat their employees better, it's crucial for customers understand why they're paying more. Otherwise, they'll just think it's a bad deal and go to another restaurant. Then the restaurant will have to stop providing insurance. I don't think you can make it work if it's built into the price. You can try telling people about it and putting up signs, but you'll run up against two unfortunate laws of human nature: people don't listen, and they don't read. This add-on fee should be disclosed beforehand as prominently as possible so that you don't get charge more than you expected. But I think it needs to be a separate fee. Otherwise, I just don't see how you can get customers to understand that your food prices are comparable to other restaurants.

SoftTalker 4y ago
Why should it be that way? Why should health insurance be the responsibility of an employer at all? It is in the US, for historical reasons as an unintended consequence of WWII-era price and wage controls, but I don't understand why we continue to think that makes any sense at all.
- adrianmonk 4y ago
  I don't actually want restaurants to be the ones providing health insurance. I want the workers to have insurance. Within the framework of the laws that exist today (which, like you, I think should be changed), there are tax advantages for employers that provide it, so that's the most practical approach right now.
  - pixelatedindex 4y ago
    > I don't actually want restaurants to be the ones providing health insurance. I want the workers to have insurance. Then who provides this insurance? Are you saying they should buy their own via Obamacare?

malikNF 4y ago

We need to stop giving this kind of practices special names and call them what they actually are, fraud. If you show me one price and zoink! charge me another price you are deceiving me. That pretty much fraud to me and I will avoid your services.

SoftTalker 4y ago

Car sales too. You have various fees and taxes that are not part of the posted price, and then the high-pressure pushes to buy extended warranties, paint protection, upholstery protection, etc. all of which are nearly pure profit for the dealer.

flemhans 4y ago

Is there any place to purchase airline tickets at e.g. cost + 15%, with no BS?

toast0 4y ago
Cost of your seat on the plane is hard to determine before the fact. Depends on how many people were on the plane, what route it ended up taking (so how much fuel was used and how many hours were logged), assumptions about depreciation, which staff were on it, since different pilots have different wages, etc. If you don't want BS, I recommend living near an airport that's a hub for an airline, and always book on that airline from their website if they serve your destination with no connections. Bonus points if they don't do a lot of BS anyway. Try to plan several months out, and prices will at least be OK. Otherwise, call a charter company and they probably don't have a lot of margin or BS. It's just really spendy, because you're going to have to pay for the time you're in the plane as well as the time to get to where you can get in.

jeffbee 4y ago

A cafe near me started adding "shuumi land tax" on the price of a cup of coffee. It's fine by me if they want to participate in some weird scheme were they rent land from some native tribe who are long gone, but don't pass it through to me. Another place started charging 25¢ on to-go coffee cups which I assumed was some city litter tax so I asked for my coffee "for here" and the guy tapped the terminal a few times and it changed into a 25¢ "for here" surcharge! Naturally I do not frequent either of those places any more.

xbar 4y ago

I am not loving that I have to read my entire menu as if it were a contract.

imroot 4y ago

Hotels are horrible for this. This is what my itemized stay was for a single night: 2023-01-18 * Residence Inn expenses:travel:marriott 171.00 USD expenses:taxes:salestax:tx 10.26 USD expenses:taxes:salestax:tx:plano 11.97 USD ; city hotel tax expenses:fees:recovery 1.28 USD ; tax recovery fee expenses:fees:recovery 2.13 USD ; parking recovery fee expenses:taxes:salestax:tx .18 USD ; taxes on parking recovery fee. assets:checking -196.82 USD ; date: 1/20 A $2.13 "Parking Recovery Fee" is charged to cover the expense in building their parking garage...and then, they charge me another sales tax on top of the parking recovery fee, then charging me a recovery fee because they need to recover the credit card fees charged on the city and state sales tax items. Resort fees are also becoming more and more common, even in hotels that shouldn't need a "resort fee" -- if I'm staying at an Embassy Suites in the middle of nowhere, Iowa, why do I need to pay a resort fee?

version_five 4y ago
I once had a hotel charge me a $30 per night "urban fee" - literally it was called that- on top of the advertised nightly rate. It was for work travel so I just payed it. I emailed them (I know pointlessly) to tell them I was never coming back (it was a hotel i used to go to a lot) and they just ignored me. Imo it's criminal, and it also looks pathetic for the companies doing it. I have a company, and if I charged made-up fees to my clients after quoting them a price, they'd tell me to get lost and I'd lose their business. You can always tell who has inappropriate market power
iceTA 4y ago
Ah, a fellow (h)ledger/beancount user :)
jen20 4y ago
> why do I need to pay a resort fee? Two reasons, neither of which is acceptable in my mind: 1: to reduce the price shown in aggregator websites (as the original article talks about) 2: to enact a stealth reduction in the value of points, since you cannot stay simply by redeeming them.

solarkraft 4y ago

I can't help it: > the practice is spreading like a contagion into new vertical Not where I live (Europe).

HelixEndeavor 4y ago

Waffle House is an interesting example for me - it's one of the few establishments that outright declares on its menu that all food prices already include sales tax. Yet you still have to tip your server, of course. But then, if you order take out, that's either called in or ordered in person, a pre-detetmined "tip" is applied to your total, in essence a fee for takeout that is evenly distributed among the staff. But *then,* if you order takeout online, not only are you subject to the takeout fee, but sales tax is applied to the prices that supposedly already include sales tax! What the heck?

cute_boi 4y ago

This is a pattern I see everywhere. The last time I purchased Verizon FiOS, there was a big $25 per month advertisement. I purchased it. Later, I realized it is only for the select 5g plan. I have to 5g plan, but later I realized it is only for the "selected" 5g plan which I don't qualify. They didn't mention it during the order, I only realized that on the first billing. The only solution is to make sure all tipping, taxes, etc. is included in the menu. Unless it is codified I am not sure anything is gonna happen soon.

viraptor 4y ago

At least at smaller restaurants this is easier to take a stand against than with Airbnb. Unless it's a huge chain, it doesn't take many negative reviews on Google maps or whatever is the common local service for the owners to notice what behaviour is not ok. "1 star, they tried to add X% fee sneakily" can do wonders.

abruzzi 4y ago

I haven't encountered anything that egregious but in the last year or so, a number of local resaurants have started charing the CC fee back to you, and in some cases, way more than the CC fee is likely to be (i.e. 5% or 7%). It seem to be associated with some of the fancy new payment processors--evey place I go with an old fashioned CC machine doesn't do this, but the fancy touch screen one seem to have that feature and some of the local restaurants are abusing it. As I learn about them, I try to avoid the restaurants that do that.

shortcake27 4y ago
In Australia we’ve got it good - businesses can only pass on the fee that they’re charged by the payment processor.

smeagull 4y ago

Just leave in that situation.

strawhatguy 4y ago

Only silver lining that can come from this is that this offers a path to fold wait staff into this service charge, and maybe we can drop the tipping culture nonsense in the US (still may need to drop the income tax in order to do so, though). But yeah, I wouldn’t return to a restaurant that pulled this sh*t, and I’m not tipping if I get suckered into one that does.

antisthenes 4y ago

If I see any "fee" that approaches 20%, I'm simply not leaving another "tip" on top of it. End of story. I am also not feeling guilty about it, because I'm likely never visiting that establishment again.

sliken 4y ago

Comcast sold me on an "upgrade", more bandwidth, free HBO, and less per month. Till the deal expired, then they added a $10 a month "broadcast fee". I only wanted internet, but they denied my request to switch to an internet plan. I had to cancel the service and switch the bill to another person to get an internet plan. Since then the broadcast fee has increased several times, it's insane.

SergeAx 4y ago

US is the only place on Earth where I found out that a sale tax is added to price tags in grocery store at the moment of check-out. I remember my astonishment the first time I faced that abomination. How's that even possible, what is the reason behind it?

petilon 4y ago
The reason behind is that the product manufacturers and distributors want consumers to know how much they are paying in taxes. If consumers don't know, then politicians will be free to hike up taxes as much as they want. Adding government-mandated charges separately is not a big problem, in my opinion. The big problem is when businesses hide a portion of their actual price under "fees". And the fees are not disclosed upfront. As an example of various fees see the AT&T example [1]. [1] https://www.att.com/legal/terms.otherWirelessFeeSchedule.html https://www.att.com/legal/terms.otherWirelessFeeSchedule.htm...
dudul 4y ago
Transparency, so you know what the government is taxing.
- unmole 4y ago
  That can be accomplished by including the tax breakdown in the bill. In fact, that's exactly what's done in many countries.

m1117 4y ago

Get back at them with a nice google maps review. They deserve it. Could just include that into the price lol.

tzs 4y ago

The most memorable example I've seen of a business sneaking higher prices past consumers was an apartment building I lived in. Let's say apartments were $1000/month. They announced that rent was going up to $1200/month, but if you signed a new one year lease the rent would be $0 for the first two months of the lease. That meant that for the next year you would have paid 12 months @ $1000/month if the rate had stayed the same, and under the new rate you would pay 2 months @ $0/month + 10 months @ $1200/month. Those are both $12000, so you are still paying $12000/year. A year later when it was time for people to renew their leases management said "Good news! No rent increase this year! Your rent is staying at $1200/month!". I think I may have been the only tenant who realized that this was actually an increase of $2400/year over what we'd paid the previous two years. Everyone else seemed to actually think that the annual rent was the same as the year before and the year before that.

BonoboIO 4y ago
Boy ... I m shocked that nobody understands this. This is plain simple math.

CraigRo 4y ago

When I see this, I multiply the charge by 2 and deduct it from the tip paid to the server and add a note. I don't like surprise charges, and I feel that the restaurant should charge appropriately and transparently in order to pay its employees. It isn't my responsibility as a guest to pay for the food as well as the back and front of house staff separately.

mrridiculezz 4y ago

My favorite drip pricing technique is when you are asked for a tip while picking up carry-out pizza. Just ridiculous.

dawnerd 4y ago

SeaWorld does this at their parks and it’s absolutely ridiculous. They put it as tiny fine print on their restaurant menu boards (which are electronic). There’s no excuse for not just raising prices.

BonoboIO 4y ago

I would call this plain FRAUD, if this was not mentioned in the menu in big letters or presented by the waiter. This is just wrong. I would refuse to pay their „out of thin air“ charge. Seriously. If those things, would be only visible after I payed like on a kiosk or something, I would dispute the charge and report their fraud to my credit card company. Good luck doing that often.

ornornor 4y ago

Never understood how any of that is legal. The price is the price, why would you be allowed to break it down into many small components and only advertise one of the components until it’s time to settle the bill? And of course the addons are things that will guilt trip you into not being picky about them like “staff appreciation”, “healthcare fee”, etc. Why not “owners greediness surcharge” or “I’m too cheap to pay my people living wages fee”?

BizarroLand 4y ago

Every time some company finds a new way to trade their morals for profits, it creates a system where every other company must also trade their morals or be out competed. Eventually we will reach a new equilibrium where every company has sold their morals and then they have to either start competing again on a new front or find new morals to sell. I don't have a pithy takeaway from this. It's capitalism.

27153 4y ago
See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

nojvek 4y ago

> A pernicious aspect of drip pricing is that, as it becomes more common, businesses that do not do it will feel pressure to follow suit; The honest restaurant is at a distinct competitive disadvantage despite providing a superior customer experience. This article reminds me of 'Meditations on Moloch' https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ The multi-agent trap. In some competition optimizing for X, the opportunity arises to throw some other value under the bus for improved X. Those who take it prosper. Those who don’t take it die out. Eventually, everyone’s relative status is about the same as before, but everyone’s absolute status is worse than before. The process continues until all other values that can be traded off have been, but relative X is still the same. There’s a passage in the Principia Discordia where Malaclypse complains to the Goddess about the evils of human society. “Everyone is hurting each other, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war.” The Goddess answers: “What is the matter with that, if it’s what you want to do?” Malaclypse: “But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!” Goddess: “Oh. Well, then stop.” Malaclypse: “But we can't, because everyone else is doing it!”

alliao 4y ago

sounds like an easy enough issue for honest operators "no hidden fees"