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Sounds awesome to me. Working as intended. When I used to travel, I'd have to take a backup phone and laptop with me that I'd leave in a travel safe, the hote

Sounds awesome to me. Working as intended. When I used to travel, I'd have to take a backup phone and laptop with me that I'd leave in a travel safe, the hotel safe, or a hotel lockbox at the front desk so I could be assured I wouldn't be out of commission for work / digital life if someone stole my laptop and phone while I was mobile. Now, I basically don't have to worry beyond taking standard opsec precautions, because Apple devices are ignored by thieves. Any legitimate reseller would not have an issue because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock. The fact stolen goods end up as scrap and have no useful value beyond scrap value is not only okay with me, I think it's a net positive for society and one of the best things Apple has done for their customers and the world.

geuis 4y ago
Sounds like you didn't fully read the article. Nothing is said about stolen property. > Responsible recyclers and refurbishers wipe the data from used devices before selling them on. In these cases, the data is wiped, but cannot be assigned to a new user, making them effectively worthless. Instead of finding these machines a second home, Bumstead and others are dismantling them and selling the parts. These computers often end up at recycling centers after corporations go out of business or buy all new machines.
- jb1991 4y ago
  Apple has an easy path to reset an Apple Silicon device by the original owner so it can be sold and used by another. I know because I've done it. But if it is stolen, game over. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 (to some of the commenters, note Step 2 carefully -- the rest of this guide is for older macs)
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - coder543 4y ago
      Step 2: > If you're using macOS Monterey or later on a Mac with Apple silicon or a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip, use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. So, it is literally a two step process for any Mac released since the end of 2017, and the first step is just an optional reminder to cancel or transfer your AppleCare coverage if you have any. So, one real step. Wow, so hard. > assuming that the seller is even aware The buyer should make the seller aware of the problem, because it is in the buyer's interest not to end up with scrap. But, regardless, why would the seller not want to wipe their computer first? The seller will inevitably hit the button mentioned in the help article simply because that's the only obvious way to wipe the computer to anyone who isn't super technical. This is a problem that practically solves itself for devices that aren't stolen.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - willnonya 4y ago
        This again assumes the owner isn't ignorant of the requirement or apathetic to it. Corpo6entities tend to be apathetic while most private owners are simply stupid.
        coder543 4y ago
        >> The buyer should make the seller aware of the problem, because it is in the buyer's interest not to end up with scrap. How does this assume anything about the owner/seller? It’s entirely on the buyer to make sure they’re getting what they want out of a transaction (as long as the seller is not misrepresenting the product), and activation lock has been a thing for like a decade on Apple devices, so it should be widely known. If they make major purchases without even doing the bare minimum of due diligence, they will have a bad time regardless of activation lock. I’ve seen people buy ancient MacBooks off eBay that can’t run the software they need, simply because they didn’t do the research. That isn’t the seller’s fault. If the seller is misrepresenting the product as having the activation lock removed when it isn’t, that becomes a legal issue. On platforms like eBay, they will happily side with the buyer and refund them in cases like that. For B2B stuff, that’s why lawyers exist.
  - nightski 4y ago
    Hmm, I've seen recyclers with stacks of these machines (including new M1 Max's) that they say they have to throw out because they can't do this. I wonder if you are missing something.
    - Operyl 4y ago
      We're not missing something, the recyclers are. The original owner just has to use their Apple ID to disassociate the device. The problem is, that step isn't happening, and the juggling of devices from reseller to reseller results in the original "owner" becoming lost.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - cameldrv 4y ago
        Juggling of devices from reseller to reseller sounds like laundering stolen goods to me. If it’s a legitimate sale, the original recycler will require the seller to wipe/unlock the device or they will only give a steeply discounted price. If the seller is going to get hundreds/thousands less by not wiping the device, they will do it. Thus, the only problem for recyclers is recycling stolen laptops.
        fmajid 4y ago
        Not necessarily, one of them gave the example of machines acquired at bankruptcy.
        hedora 4y ago
        The bankruptcy court should have compelled the former owner to sell the laptops instead of scrapping them. The proceeds would go to creditors. I’m sure there are plenty of court precedents around bankrupt businesses trashing assets out of spite rather than selling them.
        4y ago
  - SilasX 4y ago
    I'm glad they have that process outlined, but dang if it couldn't use a little streamlining. Individually sign out of iTunes(step 4), and iCloud(5), and iMessage(6)? They couldn't add something to the OS that does all three for you? And the later steps (erasing disk[8], reinstalling MacOS[8], and resetting NVRAM[9]) don't somehow already break those sessions?
    - jb1991 4y ago
      You did not read the guide correctly -- those other steps are for older versions of the mac. Recent T2 on Apple Silicon is a very short, easy reset.
      - wkat4242 4y ago
        And pre-T2 Macs don't have activation lock anyway so it's not an issue.
    - Operyl 4y ago
      Step two is a catch all, if you have a certain version of macOS or later. > use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. For any other Mac or macOS, continue to step 3.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - krolden 4y ago
      No, if you reinstall macos without removing the machine from your apple account it will lock down just like a factory reset iPhone and require you to login to the original account.
    - kayodelycaon 4y ago
      Take a closer look at Step 2: If you're using macOS Monterey or later on a Mac with Apple silicon or a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip, use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. For any other Mac or macOS, continue to step 3.
  - krolden 4y ago
    Yeah, extra work for overworked IT departments. I'm sure they'll be happy to add extra work they dont have to do. Ive worked with second hand devices for a long time. Ive had many come through that have activation/MDM/etc locks and have tried calling the IT dept they came from and all but about one time they pretty much just laughed at me or just played dumb about it entirely. Apple and other vendors were no help in this as they just tell you to contact the original owner.
    - jb1991 4y ago
      >Yeah, extra work for overworked IT departments. I'm sure they'll be happy to add extra work they dont have to do. But at the benefit of less-burdened security teams, and greatly enhanced peace of mind for users and info-sensitive organizations? You can argue it's taking something highly risky like security and shifting those man hours to something not as threatening.
      - imwillofficial 4y ago
        The world changes and so do procedures.
      - krolden 4y ago
        Most Security Depts were just fine with HDD/ssd destruction. With new apple machines there is no possibility of this.
        jb1991 4y ago
        But security is about more than what you do at the end of a machine’s ownership, it’s all the things you have to consider while the machine is out in the world with very sensitive information on it. And now those security departments have much less to worry about because of this security architecture in the chip. As the sibling commenter points out, this should also result in less waste as those drives do not need to be destroyed if the device is properly unlocked.
        4y ago
  - jakub_g 4y ago
    The article says that some corporations do not care and do not cooperate after unloading the machine to recyclers. (Including schools - which makes a bit more sense, one can assume school computer for pupils does not have any security-critical information, apart from maybe network config etc).
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    Strangely, if you follow steps 1 and 2 then you miss step 3, which is to back up or transfer your files. Why would the owner of an Apple Silicon machine not want to do this?
- eterevsky 4y ago
  It's the responsibility of the user who sells the device to factory reset it.
  - veleek 4y ago
    The problem is when the user who sells it is a business or company who can’t be bothered to unlock the devices.
    - lovich 4y ago
      The refurbished probably shouldn’t purchase those machines then if it’s a known issue. There’s a tradeoff here, and needing the owner to run a command to reset the machine seems preferable to having them be valuable if stolen
      - benj111 4y ago
        If it's a known issue? Or if it's a potential issue? All that will happen is that the second hand value of Apple devices will go down, because recyclers will assume X % are basically scrap.
        lovich 4y ago
        They’re talking about it to the reporters? How is it not a known issue at this point?
        benj111 4y ago
        No I mean if you buy 100 macbooks some will be locked and essentially worthless. In that case the value of the entire batch will be lower. So yes it's a known issue. But for each individual MacBook, it's a potential issue.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - 4y ago
- krisoft 4y ago
  > Nothing is said about stolen property. Yes. And what is argued is that they should talk about stolen property. Because if they got the laptops legitimately they should ask the original owners to unlock them. If they can't or won't then something is suspicious. The laptops being stolen is the leading suspicion.
  - p_l 4y ago
    Properly wiping FMM is, in my experience, beyond most owners, especially of they aren't mainly on mac and thus might no longer have access to apple id they used. In fact, there was a period of time when depending on latest os version and hw version, the steps changed. The one time I bought a mac personally, the reseller tried to follow the correct procedure... But they used an outdated one. Contacting previous owner led to threats of litigation for phone call mobbing.
    - coder543 4y ago
      Any Macs made in the past 5 years require exactly one step: clicking "Erase All Content and Settings", which is exactly the button anyone would push when trying to wipe a machine before giving it to someone else. Things may have been more complicated before that, but Apple has made it as easy as it possibly can be now without telling thieves to just start grabbing every Mac they see.
      - p_l 4y ago
        Not past 5 years - MBP 2018 with Catalina didn't unlock when using that. It's possible that it was a bug, but after previous owner nearly threatened lawsuit for "phone mobbing" (I wasn't the first person trying to call them to remove it from FMM) I kinda gave up. Needed to use the machine right away and broken FMM belonging to locked-out Apple ID didn't stop me from that.
        coder543 4y ago
        Yes, past 5 years. That’s what the Apple documentation says, since it says it applies to any Mac that was T2 or newer. That doesn’t mean that it would have worked this way 5 years ago. Software improvements with macOS have definitely made the process simpler than it used to be. "Erase All Content and Settings" did not exist in macOS Catalina. Back then, you had to manually reboot into recovery and reinstall the OS that way, which unfortunately did nothing for Activation Lock, and was a confusingly advanced procedure to expect end users to perform in the first place. Now, someone just has to go into settings and click that button and macOS will handle everything. It's exactly like wiping an iPhone, including using the same button name. Apple has done what they can to make this as user friendly as it can be now.
- traceroute66 4y ago
  > Responsible recyclers and refurbishers wipe the data from used devices before selling them on. In these cases, the data is wiped, but cannot be assigned to a new user, making them effectively worthless. I'm sorry but this is bullshit too. I have sold my fair share of old Apple devices via so-called "responsible recyclers and refurbishers". When submitting the form on the website, they all have statements in BIG RED CAPITAL LETTERS saying "please logout from Apple iCloud before sending us your device". Most of them also have terms and conditions saying they won't pay out and/or will return devices where activation lock is still enabled.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Apple and T-mobile requires this also for their own buyback program. I assume they are going to be reusing the phones/watch/... in another context.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  > Bumstead and others are dismantling them and selling the parts. Given Apple’s reluctance to sell spare parts, this isn’t a bad business. The logic board is just one part. The keyboard, trackpad, lcd, battery and a few other boards have quite a lot of value. Logic boards are fairly reliable in practice. What’s going to suck is when you can’t build a Frankenstein laptop as Apple marries more and more parts together. “Oh, this keyboard didn’t come with this lcd from the factory, no F key or red for you!”
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  This still sounds great! If thieves know they can't get more than scrap value for a MacBook, they will more likely search out other targets (like PCs) to make their drug money. Definitely a point in my book for buying Apple.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  Smart recycling centers and refurbished, like Apple, don’t take possession of MacBooks with Activation Lock turned on. Legitimate people can easily turn it off.
LazyMans 4y ago
I don't think it's working as intended. Like the article states, there should be a path for machines acquired legitimately to be unlocked. The example given is a registered recycler can submit the serial for unlock, then apple attempts to contact the registered owner. If no answer is received within 30 days, the machine is unlocked. Plenty of companies don't care to unlock these properly before recycling and it's creating excessive waste.
- natch 4y ago
  Ugh that would be horrible.
- jb1991 4y ago
  > there should be a path for machines acquired legitimately to be unlocked I think it's perfectly fair for "legitamately acquired" to mean the original owner consented by unlocking the device. The peace of mind and security if you own a T2 device is the way it should be, and if you want to sell it, you just factory reset it, which is a quick process.
  - LazyMans 4y ago
    That's not the case though, they are finding. A person like you or me might follow the process correctly, but a company going bankrupt or aging out old equipment doesn't care nor have any incentive to properly unlock their machines before shipping to a recycler. Thus contributing to massive waste.
    - ghostpepper 4y ago
      The user who refused to unlock it before selling and/or the purchaser who did not check that it was unlocked before purchasing are the ones contributing to massive waste here, not Apple.
      - rhn_mk1 4y ago
        When that user has died or otherwise doesn't exist, then it's hard to blame them. The only remaining thread of blame leads to Apple.
brailsafe 4y ago
[flagged]
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Life is digital nowadays. Hotel reservations, check-in and check-out are done online, tickets are online, etc. How do you travel without using anything digital?
  - brailsafe 4y ago
    I didn't say I did travel without anything digital. My comment was a question about a degree of connectedness, not the existence of it. On one hand you have your phone for solving some basic problems, on the other you have to be near reasonably reliable internet constantly, with backup devices and contingency plans for them. That, I do occasionally find myaelf the opportunity to be completely without digital stuff, and find them quite relaxing.
- tristor 4y ago
  I would do things to get a break from it, but the reality is you can't really escape when you work remotely. You are tied to that digital life as a basis for the travel itself, as well as the employment that affords you the opportunity to do so. I am not one of those people that's constantly on my phone, but for most of my travel I was in operational roles where I was on-call 24/7, and using my phone or similar devices for basic services while traveling like translation, maps, cars, train tickets, plane tickets, hotels, payments, etc.
  - brailsafe 4y ago
    What you describe is kind of what I suspected, in terms of that specific job requiring you to be that available, which is why the question was genuine. I also work remotely, and have at times travelled simultaneously, but never in the same way, unless it's the constraint I'm accepting because I actually don't have the vacation time. As in, if I'm in vacation, laptop stays at home, otherwise I'm just trying to do both and sometimes that's a fair compromise. Even day to day living stationary, I have a hard time accepting that not being able to escape is a requirement, but I'm not really responsible for any critical systems, and am not paid like that either.
scetron 4y ago
The scrap part is the worst of this. Nice single use laptops on 3 year turnover cycles? No thanks. Unless Apple is responsible for turning the left overs into usable objects and not diverted to e-waste. In the article they outline a pretty decent way to overcome this through apple themselves which I'd be much happier with.
- kolinko 4y ago
  It goes to scrap if the previous owner didn’t erase it properly. If you do a proper erase, it can be used by a new person with no prob. It’s a safety measure against laptop thieves - if you steal a macbook you cannot resell it.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    It's also a remarkably effective e-waste creation program. But I don't see the sense in creating more (probably poorly controlled) e-waste as a solution to this problem.
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      Thieves eventually learn not to steal worthless bricks.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  I bought a locked safe and the previous owner didn't give me the combination. The safe maker is unethical and just making waste!
  - uoaei 4y ago
    A safe has a pretty extremely effective security feature that prevents the kinds of thievery at the scale of Apple devices: namely, mass. A secondary contribution of course comes from the tendency to be placed deep inside a building. Apple devices wouldn't sell at all if they tried to implement this kind of security.
- 4y ago
kennywinker 4y ago
This doesn’t match my own experience. iPhones have had a similar activation lock for MUCH longer, and are still frequently stolen. My understanding is they just get chopped up for parts and resold. I doubt most thieves are able to id which macbooks have activation locks and at this point MOST of them in the wild still don’t.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  I suspect this is why Apple has been moving to ID check parts against the main board. Makes the parts worth less. Personally I'd like to see them better tied in to your Apple ID so a new phone will completely refuse to use my phone camera module or display unless I have unlinked the phone from my account. If I mark the device as stolen it should just permanently prevent these parts from being used.
benj111 4y ago
> because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock You want to bet? Theres a large body of non technical users.
- tristor 4y ago
  If you are a business that buys used electronics, it's a business imperative for you to ensure that the sellers unlock things before they're sold to you. If you don't take this on, this is kind of a self-own. There's really only two ways to look at this if you end up with a bunch of locked devices: 1. You buy and traffic in stolen goods, you're a fence. Good thing you got fucked. 2. You don't do a good job of operationalizing your core business, and ensuring that sellers unlock devices before handing them over. Good, you suck at business and those that don't should rise to the top. I don't see how any of this is a negative, except the environmental impact at the end, which considering most of this is aluminum and recyclable, is minimized and an acceptable trade-offs for the massive anti-theft and data protection benefits.
mid-kid 4y ago
> Any legitimate reseller would not have an issue because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock. This is exactly what goes wrong, way too many times. After encountering this issue with various friends and family, with locked iphones, I strongly believe we've gone wrong somewhere. People simply are not aware that their device is protected like this, until it actually hits them, which for way too many people, is simply "never". And in the case they are aware, they don't know how to remove the locks either. Contacting the previous owner isn't as simple as it may seem, as iphones will typically obscure the owner's name. If the phone has passed any reasonable amount of hands, been locked in a closet for a few years, or was set up with another relative's account, disabling any of these kinds of locks is a losing game, usually ending up in frustration and the purchase of a new device anyway. Now consider what happens when workplaces discard devices en masse. I completely agree with wanting good protection for my data on my devices, but people should be able to give away and sell these devices without worrying that the device will end up bricked in the process.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  >I completely agree with wanting good protection for my data on my devices, but people should be able to give away and sell these devices without worrying that the device will end up bricked in the process. This is not an acceptable compromise. These devices are the keys to a person’s entire existence, no compromise should be made to offset the user’s ignorance.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  I believe Apple will remove the activation lock if you can prove your identity as the purchaser/owner.
  - RulerOf 4y ago
    Which requires the purchase receipt. Good luck with that one.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
uoaei 4y ago
> Apple devices are ignored by thieves. Anecdotally, sometimes in my hometown I find dumps of bags from car thieves. I go through them and try to return the remnants to their respective owners. The thieves passed up things like a $5k engagement ring in a cloth bag and a startup founder's personal notes on proprietary technology just because they were not recognizable within 2 seconds as having value. Meanwhile, every single Apple device was gone. It was kinda 50/50 regarding Android phones, but laptops (especially corporately-allocated ones) are also always taken. So if this really is such a dealbreaker, the thieves haven't noticed yet. Which means their fences haven't noticed yet. Which means their customers haven't noticed yet. Which means what you said is probably wrong, and probably there are ways around the activation lock that the authors of the article have somehow missed out on, or perhaps they're being sold/disassembled for parts.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  They get less money for them, but they still get scrap value. The fences definitely notice, they ship them in containers off to where they can be disassembled, so maybe you get $5-10 for that laptop, but hey, that is still some amount of fentanyl. By making the fence value of the products less, however, it definitely creates a disincentive to work hard to steal a laptop. If it is easy, ya, its gone, but otherwise, their are much better ways to earn those five bucks.
- max51 4y ago
  Locked iphones are easy to resell for their parts but you get pennies on the dollars. Last time I checked (long time ago), you could get the latest gen top tier model in perfect condition on ebay for less than 100$ with a blacklisted IMEI (they work but can't use cell network). For a fully locked phone, I doubt the thief would get more than 10% of the original value. They might not throw it in the trash, but they also won't go out of their way to try to steal the one you have in your pocket.
thefz 4y ago
More waste is awesome to you? Apple making it impossible to recycle their products (genrating more profit for themselves, which is not casual) is awesome? From TFA, which you clearly did not read: > Often the previous owners are corporations or schools who buy and sell the machines in bulk and aren't interested in helping recyclers or refurbishers unlock them. "Previous owners do not return phone calls, and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed, so it is critical we have a solution that does not depend on the previous owner approving,” Bumstead said. “And after all, we have property rights, so the original owner is not the current owner and does not technically have a right to condemn to death what is no longer their property." Do you think this is accidental? Think again.
- tristor 4y ago
  > and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed You clearly did not read, or comprehend, the quote you just pasted in here. This is someone committing fraud against the companies paying them to destroy decommissioned computer systems, something they may be legally obligated to do for compliance reasons. They're trying to make a buck on the backend instead of doing what their customers paid them to do. I read, and comprehended the article, did you? From the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - bambax 4y ago
    > I read, and comprehended the article, did you? > From the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." Is this supposed to be funny or ironic? I find it's neither.
    - katbyte 4y ago
      And one comment up: > From TFA, which you clearly did not read: It’s a fair comment and callout in response.
zamalek 4y ago
> Any legitimate reseller would not have an issue because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock. Clearly didn't read the article. They receive shipments of 1000s from corps, who don't bother to remove the ownership.
- tristor 4y ago
  > They receive shipments of 1000s from corps, who don't bother to remove the ownership. They received shipments that the corporations thought were /destroyed/, likely legally required for compliance purposes, and they are participating in a fraud that violates compliance regulations by attempting to recycle rather than destroy these systems. The reason they don't want to contact the corporations to remove the activation lock is because the company doesn't know the systems were not destroyed, which is a quote from the person interviewed, in the fine article, which I read and clearly comprehended more than you. This is a business participating in fraud and assisting people who steal electronics and they are upset that their business model has been disrupted. Good. Fuck them. Also from the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
I recently sold an M1, and did factory reset before that. I don't remember anything about "Activation Lock", this word combination never came up. It seemed to work ok after reset. Have I scr**ed the buyer unknowingly?
- YuriNiyazov 4y ago
  Activation Lock is also “Find my”, if it told you to disable that or you never had it on, you are fine
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
    Probably never had it on, thanks!
    - tristor 4y ago
      In that case you wouldn't have seen it mentioned. When you go through the erase data and settings process, it asks you if you want to remove the device from Find My and disabled the activation lock, at which point it prompts again to login to iCloud. If you didn't have it enabled, it wipes without prompting.
willnonya 4y ago
This comment relies on the original owners not being either stupid or apathetic. I've bought many second hand devices over the years, from actual owners, who had no idea how to properly reset them.
zenexer 4y ago
> Working as intended. Except when I get activation locked out of my own devices that I bought directly from Apple, which does happen from time to time. Fortunately, that's never happened while traveling, but if it did, I'd be in trouble. Getting it removed is a pain and can take a while. Why does it happen? I don't know. Apple doesn't know. Nobody knows. Maybe they just really like talking to me and reviewing my receipts.
KomoD 4y ago
The fact that you think waste is awesome is disgusting... these arent stolen machines
- tristor 4y ago
  > these arent stolen machines How do you know? On what basis do you make this claim? Only with the consent of the original owner can you legitimize the transfer of property, and the activation lock is the exact technical means to get that consent and legitimize that transfer.
soupfordummies 4y ago
Unfortunately Apple devices are not ignored by thieves. I thought this too until I had an iPhone stolen last year. Coordinated rings target music festivals and I’d imagine enough people’s phones AREN’T activation locked that it’s worth it to them. Apparently they ship the locked ones to China for scrap now. And that’s exactly where mine phoned home from he final time.
- katbyte 4y ago
  And people wonder why apple is now fingerprinting and locking parts lol
- Gigachad 4y ago
  All phones, Android and iOS are activation locked. The phones are sent away to be parted out. Basically all the spare parts you see on ebay and Amazon are stolen. No one makes real 3rd party iphone screens so its almost certainly stolen.

geuis 4y ago

Sounds like you didn't fully read the article. Nothing is said about stolen property. > Responsible recyclers and refurbishers wipe the data from used devices before selling them on. In these cases, the data is wiped, but cannot be assigned to a new user, making them effectively worthless. Instead of finding these machines a second home, Bumstead and others are dismantling them and selling the parts. These computers often end up at recycling centers after corporations go out of business or buy all new machines.

jb1991 4y ago
Apple has an easy path to reset an Apple Silicon device by the original owner so it can be sold and used by another. I know because I've done it. But if it is stolen, game over. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 (to some of the commenters, note Step 2 carefully -- the rest of this guide is for older macs)
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - coder543 4y ago
    Step 2: > If you're using macOS Monterey or later on a Mac with Apple silicon or a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip, use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. So, it is literally a two step process for any Mac released since the end of 2017, and the first step is just an optional reminder to cancel or transfer your AppleCare coverage if you have any. So, one real step. Wow, so hard. > assuming that the seller is even aware The buyer should make the seller aware of the problem, because it is in the buyer's interest not to end up with scrap. But, regardless, why would the seller not want to wipe their computer first? The seller will inevitably hit the button mentioned in the help article simply because that's the only obvious way to wipe the computer to anyone who isn't super technical. This is a problem that practically solves itself for devices that aren't stolen.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - willnonya 4y ago
      This again assumes the owner isn't ignorant of the requirement or apathetic to it. Corpo6entities tend to be apathetic while most private owners are simply stupid.
      - coder543 4y ago
        >> The buyer should make the seller aware of the problem, because it is in the buyer's interest not to end up with scrap. How does this assume anything about the owner/seller? It’s entirely on the buyer to make sure they’re getting what they want out of a transaction (as long as the seller is not misrepresenting the product), and activation lock has been a thing for like a decade on Apple devices, so it should be widely known. If they make major purchases without even doing the bare minimum of due diligence, they will have a bad time regardless of activation lock. I’ve seen people buy ancient MacBooks off eBay that can’t run the software they need, simply because they didn’t do the research. That isn’t the seller’s fault. If the seller is misrepresenting the product as having the activation lock removed when it isn’t, that becomes a legal issue. On platforms like eBay, they will happily side with the buyer and refund them in cases like that. For B2B stuff, that’s why lawyers exist.
- nightski 4y ago
  Hmm, I've seen recyclers with stacks of these machines (including new M1 Max's) that they say they have to throw out because they can't do this. I wonder if you are missing something.
  - Operyl 4y ago
    We're not missing something, the recyclers are. The original owner just has to use their Apple ID to disassociate the device. The problem is, that step isn't happening, and the juggling of devices from reseller to reseller results in the original "owner" becoming lost.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - cameldrv 4y ago
      Juggling of devices from reseller to reseller sounds like laundering stolen goods to me. If it’s a legitimate sale, the original recycler will require the seller to wipe/unlock the device or they will only give a steeply discounted price. If the seller is going to get hundreds/thousands less by not wiping the device, they will do it. Thus, the only problem for recyclers is recycling stolen laptops.
      - fmajid 4y ago
        Not necessarily, one of them gave the example of machines acquired at bankruptcy.
        hedora 4y ago
        The bankruptcy court should have compelled the former owner to sell the laptops instead of scrapping them. The proceeds would go to creditors. I’m sure there are plenty of court precedents around bankrupt businesses trashing assets out of spite rather than selling them.
        4y ago
- SilasX 4y ago
  I'm glad they have that process outlined, but dang if it couldn't use a little streamlining. Individually sign out of iTunes(step 4), and iCloud(5), and iMessage(6)? They couldn't add something to the OS that does all three for you? And the later steps (erasing disk[8], reinstalling MacOS[8], and resetting NVRAM[9]) don't somehow already break those sessions?
  - jb1991 4y ago
    You did not read the guide correctly -- those other steps are for older versions of the mac. Recent T2 on Apple Silicon is a very short, easy reset.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      And pre-T2 Macs don't have activation lock anyway so it's not an issue.
  - Operyl 4y ago
    Step two is a catch all, if you have a certain version of macOS or later. > use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. For any other Mac or macOS, continue to step 3.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - krolden 4y ago
    No, if you reinstall macos without removing the machine from your apple account it will lock down just like a factory reset iPhone and require you to login to the original account.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Take a closer look at Step 2: If you're using macOS Monterey or later on a Mac with Apple silicon or a Mac with the Apple T2 Security Chip, use Erase All Content and Settings instead of the remaining steps in this article. For any other Mac or macOS, continue to step 3.
- krolden 4y ago
  Yeah, extra work for overworked IT departments. I'm sure they'll be happy to add extra work they dont have to do. Ive worked with second hand devices for a long time. Ive had many come through that have activation/MDM/etc locks and have tried calling the IT dept they came from and all but about one time they pretty much just laughed at me or just played dumb about it entirely. Apple and other vendors were no help in this as they just tell you to contact the original owner.
  - jb1991 4y ago
    >Yeah, extra work for overworked IT departments. I'm sure they'll be happy to add extra work they dont have to do. But at the benefit of less-burdened security teams, and greatly enhanced peace of mind for users and info-sensitive organizations? You can argue it's taking something highly risky like security and shifting those man hours to something not as threatening.
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      The world changes and so do procedures.
    - krolden 4y ago
      Most Security Depts were just fine with HDD/ssd destruction. With new apple machines there is no possibility of this.
      - jb1991 4y ago
        But security is about more than what you do at the end of a machine’s ownership, it’s all the things you have to consider while the machine is out in the world with very sensitive information on it. And now those security departments have much less to worry about because of this security architecture in the chip. As the sibling commenter points out, this should also result in less waste as those drives do not need to be destroyed if the device is properly unlocked.
        4y ago
- jakub_g 4y ago
  The article says that some corporations do not care and do not cooperate after unloading the machine to recyclers. (Including schools - which makes a bit more sense, one can assume school computer for pupils does not have any security-critical information, apart from maybe network config etc).
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Strangely, if you follow steps 1 and 2 then you miss step 3, which is to back up or transfer your files. Why would the owner of an Apple Silicon machine not want to do this?
eterevsky 4y ago
It's the responsibility of the user who sells the device to factory reset it.
- veleek 4y ago
  The problem is when the user who sells it is a business or company who can’t be bothered to unlock the devices.
  - lovich 4y ago
    The refurbished probably shouldn’t purchase those machines then if it’s a known issue. There’s a tradeoff here, and needing the owner to run a command to reset the machine seems preferable to having them be valuable if stolen
    - benj111 4y ago
      If it's a known issue? Or if it's a potential issue? All that will happen is that the second hand value of Apple devices will go down, because recyclers will assume X % are basically scrap.
      - lovich 4y ago
        They’re talking about it to the reporters? How is it not a known issue at this point?
        benj111 4y ago
        No I mean if you buy 100 macbooks some will be locked and essentially worthless. In that case the value of the entire batch will be lower. So yes it's a known issue. But for each individual MacBook, it's a potential issue.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 4y ago
krisoft 4y ago
> Nothing is said about stolen property. Yes. And what is argued is that they should talk about stolen property. Because if they got the laptops legitimately they should ask the original owners to unlock them. If they can't or won't then something is suspicious. The laptops being stolen is the leading suspicion.
- p_l 4y ago
  Properly wiping FMM is, in my experience, beyond most owners, especially of they aren't mainly on mac and thus might no longer have access to apple id they used. In fact, there was a period of time when depending on latest os version and hw version, the steps changed. The one time I bought a mac personally, the reseller tried to follow the correct procedure... But they used an outdated one. Contacting previous owner led to threats of litigation for phone call mobbing.
  - coder543 4y ago
    Any Macs made in the past 5 years require exactly one step: clicking "Erase All Content and Settings", which is exactly the button anyone would push when trying to wipe a machine before giving it to someone else. Things may have been more complicated before that, but Apple has made it as easy as it possibly can be now without telling thieves to just start grabbing every Mac they see.
    - p_l 4y ago
      Not past 5 years - MBP 2018 with Catalina didn't unlock when using that. It's possible that it was a bug, but after previous owner nearly threatened lawsuit for "phone mobbing" (I wasn't the first person trying to call them to remove it from FMM) I kinda gave up. Needed to use the machine right away and broken FMM belonging to locked-out Apple ID didn't stop me from that.
      - coder543 4y ago
        Yes, past 5 years. That’s what the Apple documentation says, since it says it applies to any Mac that was T2 or newer. That doesn’t mean that it would have worked this way 5 years ago. Software improvements with macOS have definitely made the process simpler than it used to be. "Erase All Content and Settings" did not exist in macOS Catalina. Back then, you had to manually reboot into recovery and reinstall the OS that way, which unfortunately did nothing for Activation Lock, and was a confusingly advanced procedure to expect end users to perform in the first place. Now, someone just has to go into settings and click that button and macOS will handle everything. It's exactly like wiping an iPhone, including using the same button name. Apple has done what they can to make this as user friendly as it can be now.
traceroute66 4y ago
> Responsible recyclers and refurbishers wipe the data from used devices before selling them on. In these cases, the data is wiped, but cannot be assigned to a new user, making them effectively worthless. I'm sorry but this is bullshit too. I have sold my fair share of old Apple devices via so-called "responsible recyclers and refurbishers". When submitting the form on the website, they all have statements in BIG RED CAPITAL LETTERS saying "please logout from Apple iCloud before sending us your device". Most of them also have terms and conditions saying they won't pay out and/or will return devices where activation lock is still enabled.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Apple and T-mobile requires this also for their own buyback program. I assume they are going to be reusing the phones/watch/... in another context.
Scoundreller 4y ago
> Bumstead and others are dismantling them and selling the parts. Given Apple’s reluctance to sell spare parts, this isn’t a bad business. The logic board is just one part. The keyboard, trackpad, lcd, battery and a few other boards have quite a lot of value. Logic boards are fairly reliable in practice. What’s going to suck is when you can’t build a Frankenstein laptop as Apple marries more and more parts together. “Oh, this keyboard didn’t come with this lcd from the factory, no F key or red for you!”
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
This still sounds great! If thieves know they can't get more than scrap value for a MacBook, they will more likely search out other targets (like PCs) to make their drug money. Definitely a point in my book for buying Apple.
tinus_hn 4y ago
Smart recycling centers and refurbished, like Apple, don’t take possession of MacBooks with Activation Lock turned on. Legitimate people can easily turn it off.

LazyMans 4y ago

I don't think it's working as intended. Like the article states, there should be a path for machines acquired legitimately to be unlocked. The example given is a registered recycler can submit the serial for unlock, then apple attempts to contact the registered owner. If no answer is received within 30 days, the machine is unlocked. Plenty of companies don't care to unlock these properly before recycling and it's creating excessive waste.

natch 4y ago
Ugh that would be horrible.
jb1991 4y ago
> there should be a path for machines acquired legitimately to be unlocked I think it's perfectly fair for "legitamately acquired" to mean the original owner consented by unlocking the device. The peace of mind and security if you own a T2 device is the way it should be, and if you want to sell it, you just factory reset it, which is a quick process.
- LazyMans 4y ago
  That's not the case though, they are finding. A person like you or me might follow the process correctly, but a company going bankrupt or aging out old equipment doesn't care nor have any incentive to properly unlock their machines before shipping to a recycler. Thus contributing to massive waste.
  - ghostpepper 4y ago
    The user who refused to unlock it before selling and/or the purchaser who did not check that it was unlocked before purchasing are the ones contributing to massive waste here, not Apple.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      When that user has died or otherwise doesn't exist, then it's hard to blame them. The only remaining thread of blame leads to Apple.

brailsafe 4y ago

[flagged]

theshrike79 4y ago
Life is digital nowadays. Hotel reservations, check-in and check-out are done online, tickets are online, etc. How do you travel without using anything digital?
- brailsafe 4y ago
  I didn't say I did travel without anything digital. My comment was a question about a degree of connectedness, not the existence of it. On one hand you have your phone for solving some basic problems, on the other you have to be near reasonably reliable internet constantly, with backup devices and contingency plans for them. That, I do occasionally find myaelf the opportunity to be completely without digital stuff, and find them quite relaxing.
tristor 4y ago
I would do things to get a break from it, but the reality is you can't really escape when you work remotely. You are tied to that digital life as a basis for the travel itself, as well as the employment that affords you the opportunity to do so. I am not one of those people that's constantly on my phone, but for most of my travel I was in operational roles where I was on-call 24/7, and using my phone or similar devices for basic services while traveling like translation, maps, cars, train tickets, plane tickets, hotels, payments, etc.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  What you describe is kind of what I suspected, in terms of that specific job requiring you to be that available, which is why the question was genuine. I also work remotely, and have at times travelled simultaneously, but never in the same way, unless it's the constraint I'm accepting because I actually don't have the vacation time. As in, if I'm in vacation, laptop stays at home, otherwise I'm just trying to do both and sometimes that's a fair compromise. Even day to day living stationary, I have a hard time accepting that not being able to escape is a requirement, but I'm not really responsible for any critical systems, and am not paid like that either.

scetron 4y ago

The scrap part is the worst of this. Nice single use laptops on 3 year turnover cycles? No thanks. Unless Apple is responsible for turning the left overs into usable objects and not diverted to e-waste. In the article they outline a pretty decent way to overcome this through apple themselves which I'd be much happier with.

kolinko 4y ago
It goes to scrap if the previous owner didn’t erase it properly. If you do a proper erase, it can be used by a new person with no prob. It’s a safety measure against laptop thieves - if you steal a macbook you cannot resell it.
- uoaei 4y ago
  It's also a remarkably effective e-waste creation program. But I don't see the sense in creating more (probably poorly controlled) e-waste as a solution to this problem.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    Thieves eventually learn not to steal worthless bricks.
theshrike79 4y ago
I bought a locked safe and the previous owner didn't give me the combination. The safe maker is unethical and just making waste!
- uoaei 4y ago
  A safe has a pretty extremely effective security feature that prevents the kinds of thievery at the scale of Apple devices: namely, mass. A secondary contribution of course comes from the tendency to be placed deep inside a building. Apple devices wouldn't sell at all if they tried to implement this kind of security.
4y ago

kennywinker 4y ago

This doesn’t match my own experience. iPhones have had a similar activation lock for MUCH longer, and are still frequently stolen. My understanding is they just get chopped up for parts and resold. I doubt most thieves are able to id which macbooks have activation locks and at this point MOST of them in the wild still don’t.

Gigachad 4y ago
I suspect this is why Apple has been moving to ID check parts against the main board. Makes the parts worth less. Personally I'd like to see them better tied in to your Apple ID so a new phone will completely refuse to use my phone camera module or display unless I have unlinked the phone from my account. If I mark the device as stolen it should just permanently prevent these parts from being used.

benj111 4y ago

> because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock You want to bet? Theres a large body of non technical users.

tristor 4y ago
If you are a business that buys used electronics, it's a business imperative for you to ensure that the sellers unlock things before they're sold to you. If you don't take this on, this is kind of a self-own. There's really only two ways to look at this if you end up with a bunch of locked devices: 1. You buy and traffic in stolen goods, you're a fence. Good thing you got fucked. 2. You don't do a good job of operationalizing your core business, and ensuring that sellers unlock devices before handing them over. Good, you suck at business and those that don't should rise to the top. I don't see how any of this is a negative, except the environmental impact at the end, which considering most of this is aluminum and recyclable, is minimized and an acceptable trade-offs for the massive anti-theft and data protection benefits.

mid-kid 4y ago

> Any legitimate reseller would not have an issue because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock. This is exactly what goes wrong, way too many times. After encountering this issue with various friends and family, with locked iphones, I strongly believe we've gone wrong somewhere. People simply are not aware that their device is protected like this, until it actually hits them, which for way too many people, is simply "never". And in the case they are aware, they don't know how to remove the locks either. Contacting the previous owner isn't as simple as it may seem, as iphones will typically obscure the owner's name. If the phone has passed any reasonable amount of hands, been locked in a closet for a few years, or was set up with another relative's account, disabling any of these kinds of locks is a losing game, usually ending up in frustration and the purchase of a new device anyway. Now consider what happens when workplaces discard devices en masse. I completely agree with wanting good protection for my data on my devices, but people should be able to give away and sell these devices without worrying that the device will end up bricked in the process.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
>I completely agree with wanting good protection for my data on my devices, but people should be able to give away and sell these devices without worrying that the device will end up bricked in the process. This is not an acceptable compromise. These devices are the keys to a person’s entire existence, no compromise should be made to offset the user’s ignorance.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
I believe Apple will remove the activation lock if you can prove your identity as the purchaser/owner.
- RulerOf 4y ago
  Which requires the purchase receipt. Good luck with that one.
  - Gigachad 4y ago

uoaei 4y ago

> Apple devices are ignored by thieves. Anecdotally, sometimes in my hometown I find dumps of bags from car thieves. I go through them and try to return the remnants to their respective owners. The thieves passed up things like a $5k engagement ring in a cloth bag and a startup founder's personal notes on proprietary technology just because they were not recognizable within 2 seconds as having value. Meanwhile, every single Apple device was gone. It was kinda 50/50 regarding Android phones, but laptops (especially corporately-allocated ones) are also always taken. So if this really is such a dealbreaker, the thieves haven't noticed yet. Which means their fences haven't noticed yet. Which means their customers haven't noticed yet. Which means what you said is probably wrong, and probably there are ways around the activation lock that the authors of the article have somehow missed out on, or perhaps they're being sold/disassembled for parts.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
They get less money for them, but they still get scrap value. The fences definitely notice, they ship them in containers off to where they can be disassembled, so maybe you get $5-10 for that laptop, but hey, that is still some amount of fentanyl. By making the fence value of the products less, however, it definitely creates a disincentive to work hard to steal a laptop. If it is easy, ya, its gone, but otherwise, their are much better ways to earn those five bucks.
max51 4y ago
Locked iphones are easy to resell for their parts but you get pennies on the dollars. Last time I checked (long time ago), you could get the latest gen top tier model in perfect condition on ebay for less than 100$ with a blacklisted IMEI (they work but can't use cell network). For a fully locked phone, I doubt the thief would get more than 10% of the original value. They might not throw it in the trash, but they also won't go out of their way to try to steal the one you have in your pocket.

thefz 4y ago

More waste is awesome to you? Apple making it impossible to recycle their products (genrating more profit for themselves, which is not casual) is awesome? From TFA, which you clearly did not read: > Often the previous owners are corporations or schools who buy and sell the machines in bulk and aren't interested in helping recyclers or refurbishers unlock them. "Previous owners do not return phone calls, and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed, so it is critical we have a solution that does not depend on the previous owner approving,” Bumstead said. “And after all, we have property rights, so the original owner is not the current owner and does not technically have a right to condemn to death what is no longer their property." Do you think this is accidental? Think again.

tristor 4y ago
> and large corporations that dump 3000 machines assume they have been destroyed You clearly did not read, or comprehend, the quote you just pasted in here. This is someone committing fraud against the companies paying them to destroy decommissioned computer systems, something they may be legally obligated to do for compliance reasons. They're trying to make a buck on the backend instead of doing what their customers paid them to do. I read, and comprehended the article, did you? From the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bambax 4y ago
  > I read, and comprehended the article, did you? > From the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." Is this supposed to be funny or ironic? I find it's neither.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    And one comment up: > From TFA, which you clearly did not read: It’s a fair comment and callout in response.

zamalek 4y ago

> Any legitimate reseller would not have an issue because the original owner which sold the laptop to them would have wiped the device and removed the activation lock. Clearly didn't read the article. They receive shipments of 1000s from corps, who don't bother to remove the ownership.

tristor 4y ago
> They receive shipments of 1000s from corps, who don't bother to remove the ownership. They received shipments that the corporations thought were /destroyed/, likely legally required for compliance purposes, and they are participating in a fraud that violates compliance regulations by attempting to recycle rather than destroy these systems. The reason they don't want to contact the corporations to remove the activation lock is because the company doesn't know the systems were not destroyed, which is a quote from the person interviewed, in the fine article, which I read and clearly comprehended more than you. This is a business participating in fraud and assisting people who steal electronics and they are upset that their business model has been disrupted. Good. Fuck them. Also from the HN guidelines [1]: "Please don't comment on whether someone read an article." [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

I recently sold an M1, and did factory reset before that. I don't remember anything about "Activation Lock", this word combination never came up. It seemed to work ok after reset. Have I scr**ed the buyer unknowingly?

YuriNiyazov 4y ago
Activation Lock is also “Find my”, if it told you to disable that or you never had it on, you are fine
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  Probably never had it on, thanks!
  - tristor 4y ago
    In that case you wouldn't have seen it mentioned. When you go through the erase data and settings process, it asks you if you want to remove the device from Find My and disabled the activation lock, at which point it prompts again to login to iCloud. If you didn't have it enabled, it wipes without prompting.

willnonya 4y ago

This comment relies on the original owners not being either stupid or apathetic. I've bought many second hand devices over the years, from actual owners, who had no idea how to properly reset them.

zenexer 4y ago

> Working as intended. Except when I get activation locked out of my own devices that I bought directly from Apple, which does happen from time to time. Fortunately, that's never happened while traveling, but if it did, I'd be in trouble. Getting it removed is a pain and can take a while. Why does it happen? I don't know. Apple doesn't know. Nobody knows. Maybe they just really like talking to me and reviewing my receipts.

KomoD 4y ago

The fact that you think waste is awesome is disgusting... these arent stolen machines

tristor 4y ago
> these arent stolen machines How do you know? On what basis do you make this claim? Only with the consent of the original owner can you legitimize the transfer of property, and the activation lock is the exact technical means to get that consent and legitimize that transfer.

soupfordummies 4y ago

Unfortunately Apple devices are not ignored by thieves. I thought this too until I had an iPhone stolen last year. Coordinated rings target music festivals and I’d imagine enough people’s phones AREN’T activation locked that it’s worth it to them. Apparently they ship the locked ones to China for scrap now. And that’s exactly where mine phoned home from he final time.

katbyte 4y ago
And people wonder why apple is now fingerprinting and locking parts lol
Gigachad 4y ago
All phones, Android and iOS are activation locked. The phones are sent away to be parted out. Basically all the spare parts you see on ebay and Amazon are stolen. No one makes real 3rd party iphone screens so its almost certainly stolen.