7 ms·

I think tipping should be outlawed. The price should be the price. Workers should not be subject to inconsistent pay for the same amount of work. In addition it

I think tipping should be outlawed. The price should be the price. Workers should not be subject to inconsistent pay for the same amount of work. In addition it gets rid of any bias in wages (more attractive people or people of different ethnicities might get higher tips for the same work).

seizethecheese 4y ago
Nothing should be outlawed unless it causes a reasonable amount of harm. This mostly doesn’t. First, it’s just semantics. Second, you don’t have to buy again.
- Fauntleroy 4y ago
  The tipping system causes harm.
  - seizethecheese 4y ago
    It causes a minimal amount of harm. What proportion of the tip requests you get are from your first time buying from the establishment? It’s very low. After that, you know there’s a tip request and choose to return.
  - DrThunder 4y ago
    Provide evidence based examples please.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      https://www.eater.com/a/case-against-tipping https://www.eater.com/a/case-against-tipping here's some
      - DrThunder 4y ago
        Propaganda aligning with a certain modern day cult and nothing but subjective anecdotes isn't proof of anything. First of all you'd have to PROVE the tipping difference is due to racism.... something this article fails completely at. Let's assume that people are actually tipping "people of color" worse. Do you think getting rid of tipping is somehow fixing this perceived racism? If so, why do you believe you can legislate a personality trait out of people?
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > First of all you'd have to PROVE the tipping difference is due to racism.... No you don't. If tipped wages are more discriminatory you can ban them. Even if no racism is involved, somehow! And that's not trying to legislate a personality trait.
        DrThunder 4y ago
        Yes you do, you do not get to just claim people are racist with no proof. Do you think it's a joke to make this claim? You're certainly treating it pretty nonchalantly. You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up. You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > Yes you do, you do not get to just claim people are racist with no proof. Do you think it's a joke to make this claim? You're certainly treating it pretty nonchalantly. I didn't say people were racist, I gave a link supporting the idea that tipping is harmful. See where I said "Even if no racism is involved, somehow!" Even if a lot of people.. look it doesn't matter for this topic. > You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up. Mostly I want to get rid of the idea of a tipped minimum, and fix some of the other issues around minimum wage. I don't want to take any jobs away. > You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims. You're reading a lot of things in my posts that aren't there. I just want all the waiters to get a good paycheck and make tips exceptional. "Pay everyone in the same job at the same tier the same amount" is not redistribution.
godelski 4y ago
We don't have to outlaw it but we should do something more difficult: make it not the social norm.
- tkuraku 4y ago
  Not sure how to do that when business can just decide not to pay fair wages and rely on strangers to supplement employee's income through tipping.
  - bscphil 4y ago
    I mean, "require businesses to pay their employees minimum wage" is really not too big an ask in most countries. Edit: to give you credit, I think that may have been your point. I lost track of context in the thread.
  - gwbas1c 4y ago
    It's hard to ban people giving money to people. But you can require that all posted prices include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities; AND that the price on the bill include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities. Basically, just push the tip into the noise and require that the posted price be the sum of all the hidden fees.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    It's not some impossible goal. Most of the world does not have America's crazy tipping culture. I would say tipping is decreasing in the UK. It's pretty normal not to tip in restaurants now because the pandemic changed payment methods. Before 10% was the standard (only if you pay after eating though).
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  I went to a religious university and there was a certain ethics class everybody was required to take. A discussion topic one day was about how to advertise you were a member of this faith while out and about, and the topic of tipping came up. The lecture pretty much worked out like you should be tipping big! People don't treat waiters so well after the religious service ends! At least 20% to share the good news:tm: with them! Oddly, this same class never took the same effort to address how to advertise to any other class of people. I get this sounds like a random aside, but tipping is something that religious communities at least try to connect to people with (which surprisingly includes patrons who leave $0 tip and a "here's a tip, your pathway to %afterlife%" business card). If there was a push to make it not the social norm, I could see churches crusading to keep it a part of our culture forever. Maybe it'd be OK to outlaw it.
boomchinolo78 4y ago
What? Who is harmed? Are we to pretend all waiters do an equally good job? Good service gets good tips, bad service, not good. It's just an incentive system. The only reason it starts to breakdown is because there are really cheap people out there who will skimp on the tip and then complain when waiters treat them like shit. If you are a regular at a place and you tip well, they'll spoil you.
- notfromhere 4y ago
  Should we tip doctors then? Surgeons? Software developers? Are we to pretend all professions do an equally good job?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Here is a free tip for you: you can tip your Healthcare workers. If you have a family member in the hospital, bring some homemade cookies or treats for the staff. I can't prove that it helps, but I am confident it does.
    - pronlover723 4y ago
      Only until the precedent is set that you need to tip $$$$ or else you're a cheapskate.
- purpleblue 4y ago
  Most places in the world do not have tipping. The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage. I think that tipping should be outlawed and waiters should be paid a wage supported by the market, at least whatever minimum wage is (in California, that's $15.50/hr).
  - detaro 4y ago
    > The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage Tipping predates minimum wage laws. (indeed the first laws to ban tipping in the US also predate minimum wage laws, but it clearly didn't stick)
purpleblue 4y ago
I think instead tipping law should be that it is not be asked for until after the service is rendered. These days they will ask for tip BEFORE anything is served which makes me very upset. It traps you into paying and any incentive for good behavior is completely stolen.
DrThunder 4y ago
I don't. For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. I agree for counter service it where they want tips BEFORE the service experience it makes no sense. You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. Tying a possible bonus to the way you act in customer service facing role has a lot of benefits. "In addition it gets rid of any bias in wages (more attractive people more attractive people" Why are higher wages for a subjectively attractive person a bad thing... Are they not driving better business? Do you think it's somehow more altruistic to provide subjectively uglier individuals the same wage? Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait. Your point is moot anyway, in a capitalistic society people can just choose to visit another business where the staff has the traits they desire.
- tkuraku 4y ago
  It does not mean better service. For example, no tipping in Japan, but sit down restaurants are perfectly pleasant.
  - DrThunder 4y ago
    Japanese people are culturally more inclined to be pleasant, it's part of the way they're raised, so I don't think that's a good example. I've not had a pleasant experience in most other western nations. I won't say it was bad but it's nowhere near as efficient and you have to really get waiters attention before they'll do anything.
- nerdbert 4y ago
  > For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. In my personal experience, it makes it worse. They annoy me with attempts to be ingratiating. They fish for tips with forms and devices which creates awkward and unpleasant situations, especially if I didn't like the service. There is nothing pleasant for me about having someone watching me and trying to guess when I want something. I know when I want something and I am perfectly capable of telling them when that moment comes. > You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. I live in the EU and I find the service at restaurants a hundred times better here. Nobody is pestering me, nobody is insulting both of us by pretending to be my new best friend. They stay out of my way until I ask for something.

seizethecheese 4y ago

Nothing should be outlawed unless it causes a reasonable amount of harm. This mostly doesn’t. First, it’s just semantics. Second, you don’t have to buy again.

Fauntleroy 4y ago
The tipping system causes harm.
- seizethecheese 4y ago
  It causes a minimal amount of harm. What proportion of the tip requests you get are from your first time buying from the establishment? It’s very low. After that, you know there’s a tip request and choose to return.
- DrThunder 4y ago
  Provide evidence based examples please.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    https://www.eater.com/a/case-against-tipping https://www.eater.com/a/case-against-tipping here's some
    - DrThunder 4y ago
      Propaganda aligning with a certain modern day cult and nothing but subjective anecdotes isn't proof of anything. First of all you'd have to PROVE the tipping difference is due to racism.... something this article fails completely at. Let's assume that people are actually tipping "people of color" worse. Do you think getting rid of tipping is somehow fixing this perceived racism? If so, why do you believe you can legislate a personality trait out of people?
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        > First of all you'd have to PROVE the tipping difference is due to racism.... No you don't. If tipped wages are more discriminatory you can ban them. Even if no racism is involved, somehow! And that's not trying to legislate a personality trait.
        DrThunder 4y ago
        Yes you do, you do not get to just claim people are racist with no proof. Do you think it's a joke to make this claim? You're certainly treating it pretty nonchalantly. You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up. You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > Yes you do, you do not get to just claim people are racist with no proof. Do you think it's a joke to make this claim? You're certainly treating it pretty nonchalantly. I didn't say people were racist, I gave a link supporting the idea that tipping is harmful. See where I said "Even if no racism is involved, somehow!" Even if a lot of people.. look it doesn't matter for this topic. > You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up. Mostly I want to get rid of the idea of a tipped minimum, and fix some of the other issues around minimum wage. I don't want to take any jobs away. > You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims. You're reading a lot of things in my posts that aren't there. I just want all the waiters to get a good paycheck and make tips exceptional. "Pay everyone in the same job at the same tier the same amount" is not redistribution.

godelski 4y ago

We don't have to outlaw it but we should do something more difficult: make it not the social norm.

tkuraku 4y ago
Not sure how to do that when business can just decide not to pay fair wages and rely on strangers to supplement employee's income through tipping.
- bscphil 4y ago
  I mean, "require businesses to pay their employees minimum wage" is really not too big an ask in most countries. Edit: to give you credit, I think that may have been your point. I lost track of context in the thread.
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  It's hard to ban people giving money to people. But you can require that all posted prices include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities; AND that the price on the bill include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities. Basically, just push the tip into the noise and require that the posted price be the sum of all the hidden fees.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  It's not some impossible goal. Most of the world does not have America's crazy tipping culture. I would say tipping is decreasing in the UK. It's pretty normal not to tip in restaurants now because the pandemic changed payment methods. Before 10% was the standard (only if you pay after eating though).
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
I went to a religious university and there was a certain ethics class everybody was required to take. A discussion topic one day was about how to advertise you were a member of this faith while out and about, and the topic of tipping came up. The lecture pretty much worked out like you should be tipping big! People don't treat waiters so well after the religious service ends! At least 20% to share the good news:tm: with them! Oddly, this same class never took the same effort to address how to advertise to any other class of people. I get this sounds like a random aside, but tipping is something that religious communities at least try to connect to people with (which surprisingly includes patrons who leave $0 tip and a "here's a tip, your pathway to %afterlife%" business card). If there was a push to make it not the social norm, I could see churches crusading to keep it a part of our culture forever. Maybe it'd be OK to outlaw it.

boomchinolo78 4y ago

What? Who is harmed? Are we to pretend all waiters do an equally good job? Good service gets good tips, bad service, not good. It's just an incentive system. The only reason it starts to breakdown is because there are really cheap people out there who will skimp on the tip and then complain when waiters treat them like shit. If you are a regular at a place and you tip well, they'll spoil you.

notfromhere 4y ago
Should we tip doctors then? Surgeons? Software developers? Are we to pretend all professions do an equally good job?
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Here is a free tip for you: you can tip your Healthcare workers. If you have a family member in the hospital, bring some homemade cookies or treats for the staff. I can't prove that it helps, but I am confident it does.
  - pronlover723 4y ago
    Only until the precedent is set that you need to tip $$$$ or else you're a cheapskate.
purpleblue 4y ago
Most places in the world do not have tipping. The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage. I think that tipping should be outlawed and waiters should be paid a wage supported by the market, at least whatever minimum wage is (in California, that's $15.50/hr).
- detaro 4y ago
  > The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage Tipping predates minimum wage laws. (indeed the first laws to ban tipping in the US also predate minimum wage laws, but it clearly didn't stick)

purpleblue 4y ago

I think instead tipping law should be that it is not be asked for until after the service is rendered. These days they will ask for tip BEFORE anything is served which makes me very upset. It traps you into paying and any incentive for good behavior is completely stolen.

DrThunder 4y ago

I don't. For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. I agree for counter service it where they want tips BEFORE the service experience it makes no sense. You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. Tying a possible bonus to the way you act in customer service facing role has a lot of benefits. "In addition it gets rid of any bias in wages (more attractive people more attractive people" Why are higher wages for a subjectively attractive person a bad thing... Are they not driving better business? Do you think it's somehow more altruistic to provide subjectively uglier individuals the same wage? Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait. Your point is moot anyway, in a capitalistic society people can just choose to visit another business where the staff has the traits they desire.

tkuraku 4y ago
It does not mean better service. For example, no tipping in Japan, but sit down restaurants are perfectly pleasant.
- DrThunder 4y ago
  Japanese people are culturally more inclined to be pleasant, it's part of the way they're raised, so I don't think that's a good example. I've not had a pleasant experience in most other western nations. I won't say it was bad but it's nowhere near as efficient and you have to really get waiters attention before they'll do anything.
nerdbert 4y ago
> For sit down restaurants, or many service oriented jobs it makes for a better customer experience. In my personal experience, it makes it worse. They annoy me with attempts to be ingratiating. They fish for tips with forms and devices which creates awkward and unpleasant situations, especially if I didn't like the service. There is nothing pleasant for me about having someone watching me and trying to guess when I want something. I know when I want something and I am perfectly capable of telling them when that moment comes. > You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you. I live in the EU and I find the service at restaurants a hundred times better here. Nobody is pestering me, nobody is insulting both of us by pretending to be my new best friend. They stay out of my way until I ask for something.