11 ms·

> number of houses or total square footage built per employee Average house size has probably doubled in the last 50 years. Nail guns can't make up for buildi

> number of houses or total square footage built per employee Average house size has probably doubled in the last 50 years. Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today.

latchkey 4y ago
I'm remodeling my place right now. You're totally right, the building codes are a lot more complex and there is more 'work' to do as a result. No more just hiding electrical boxes in the walls. Heh. That said, the products being used have improved a lot. Things like PEX tubing for plumbing (instead of copper) and glue on walls for showers (over doing tile work), make some aspects go a lot faster. Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention vinyl plank flooring... omg, so easy and the results look and function great.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The big builders like DR Horton and Lennar target build times of 100 days per home that meets minimum code requirements, which is pretty good productivity. A community of 100 homes can be up and running in 2 years.
  - nradov 4y ago
    And that 100 days target is mainly for achieving optimal efficiency. If you want to optimize for time it's totally possible to go from an empty lot to a finished house in under a week, provided that all the workers, inspectors, and materials are available.
  - dumpsterlid 4y ago
    [dead]
  - conductr 4y ago
    Requires a ton of overhead at the planning / pre-construction phases. That’s only amortized out if you built a ton of volume which these do. It’s also why you may only have a choice of 8 floor plans even though it’s a neighborhood of 500 homes.
- matwood 4y ago
  PEX is great. I highly recommend keeping some shark bites and spare pieces of PEX around, as it's easy to do repairs on your own if you have an issue.
  - joezydeco 4y ago
    I live in an area where the plumbing is soldered copper and the wiring is all in steel conduit. PEX, ProPress, Sharkbites, Romex... it's all just a little scary to me.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      I seriously can't recommend this guy enough for general repair/building work... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnorhjQR4zJkT7AVNhu395Q/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnorhjQR4zJkT7AVNhu395Q/vid... Friendly, super knowledgable, takes the fear out of the DIY. For electrical, I do a lot myself, but when it came to running a 50amp line + breaker panel inside my place (which also required outdoor ladder work) to replace the steel conduit indoors, I just hired a professional even though it was very expensive.
      - joezydeco 4y ago
        It's not the DIY aspect^, it's the idea of ProPress joint sitting pressurized behind a wall for a decade. ^ I'm knowledgeable enough to do my own wiring and plumbing, but pay for licensed/bonded contractors instead. I sleep better at night and my insurance company probably does as well.
        latchkey 4y ago
        Up to you, but it honestly really isn't that much of an issue and I'd trust a simple properly crimped joint (which is easily visually inspected with a simple tool) a heck of a lot more than a welded one that is impossible to see what the inside looks like... um, did I put the right amount of flux on? did I know to use the 1/2 of solder to 1/2 of pipe trick? As far as insurance companies... I bought an old place... I'm finding all sorts of stuff that isn't up to code (hidden electrical boxes, in the floor!, with wire nuts and not even twisted together wire and not even grounded properly)... I'm bringing it up to code, with modern products... in a court of law, it is going to be hard for them to argue against me.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  Copper is superior. I specifically went out of my way to find a house with large swaths of the plumbing done with copper. Pretty neat to have anti-microbial properties built in.
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Copper inferior for productivity, which is what we are talking about here.
  - _Adam 4y ago
    My pipes are all copper, and the hot water contains a non trivial amount of lead (from the solder used to join the pipes). I had it tested - around 20 ppb. We don't drink or cook with the hot water, but in theory if the plumbing was PEX we could.
    - Der_Einzige 4y ago
      What year was your house built? I really hope this is not a risk on things built after 2000 (or 1980?)
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        Lead flux went away like 45 years ago. But sometimes galvanized pipe has some amount of lead in the zinc coating, and a mixed cooper/galvanized installation can accelerate corrosion. Post-Flint, lead is the new asbestos. Because the standard is zero tolerance, there’s alot of noise on the topic. PEX is great, but I’d personally always go for cooper if I could afford it. We tend to learn new things about plastic and risks over time.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        From 1986-2011 the EPA/congress defined "lead free" pipes as containing no more than 8% lead. In 1996, they banned plumbing that is not "lead free" from being sold. In 2011, the "lead free" definition was strengthened to a weighted average of 0.25%.
    - 4y ago
- switch007 4y ago
  Those glue on walls seemed to be priced at “we know how much tiling costs”. £36m2 (cheapest I could find on a site similar to Home Depot) for some composite plastic seems crazy. They have some double that price too.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Yes, they know the value and have priced accordingly. ~$800usd vs. tile+labor. Definitely a product that is ripe for disruption. There aren't even many manufacturers.
    - runnerup 4y ago
      > Definitely a product that is ripe for disruption. There aren't even many manufacturers. These two statements may be related. It’s not worth deploying capital to compete if the additional competition drives profits margins to zero. Better to deploy that capital somewhere it gets better expected returns. This anti-competitive logic seems very widespread these days with such centralized global supply chains and consolidated retail chains. Not a lot of room for me to deploy a small amount of capital to create a small-medium sized manufacturing facility of this stuff to chip away at 10-50% of the demand around the edges of the marginal profits. Mainly because it would be difficult to get my products into Home Depot and Lowe’s if I can’t supply their whole national chain. And that’s assuming Home Depot and Lowe’s haven’t agreed to any exclusivity with the current manufacturers which I’d need private equity money to beat.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        You're right on all fronts, my only comment is that there is a lot of room for product improvement though. $800+ for 3 sheets of plastic, and that is it, is absurd. They don't even interlock or have trim for the corners... example... https://www.homedepot.com/p/WOODBRIDGE-Haydon-32-in-x-60-in-x-96-in-Solid-Surface-3-Piece-Easy-Up-Adhesive-Alcove-Shower-Wall-Surround-in-High-Gloss-White-HWP4300/314842961 https://www.homedepot.com/p/WOODBRIDGE-Haydon-32-in-x-60-in-... Of course adding those items would cost even more, so it is a bit of a race to zero. That said, if you can get a following by homebuilders and into every single new housing project, it might be worth it. I'm sure having some sort of inside track advantage there would be necessary too. None of which I personally have, but as an end user of this stuff, I'd be more than happy to support and provide feedback on.
- frankus 4y ago
  The great thing about PEX is that they made an expensive* tool that makes joining pipes like 90% less skill-intensive. I'd love to see something similar done for electric wiring. I'm picturing something like an electrical box that you can directly connect Romex that's been stripped with a special tool, and then a circuit-breaker-style snap-in for the actual receptacle. The parts/tools would cost more but might dramatically speed up the installation. *relatively expensive, especially in the early days.
  - mike50 4y ago
    Hubbel already makes this. https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Straight-Blade-Devices/SnapConnect-Receptacles/c/2027718 https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Ele...
    - latchkey 4y ago
      Neat but the speed up here just doesn't seem that extreme, I guess maybe if you're installing 10k of these a day. I feel like the time it takes to put the wires into the harness is just as much time as putting them straight into the receptacle and tightening the nut. I did start using wago's though... those are handy for sure.
- RetpolineDrama 4y ago
  >Things like PEX tubing for plumbing PEX is terrible, pretty much every commercial brand has been shown to leech petrochemicals into your water. This varies a lot based on your municipal water supply's characteristics. Unfortunately cleaner water leeches more. PEX saves megabuilders $$$ and plumbers time, but it's not good for you.
jaclaz 4y ago
I have no idea how much it affects the data used to make that calculation, nor how much is its relevance in the US, but here (EU, Italy) besides the building code improvements there has been a very noticeable increase in amount/complexity of electric and hydraulic/heating/conditioning installments.
belval 4y ago
Pretty sure this is the right answer and calling this "worker productivity" seems a bit harsh. A "Pretty Good House" (book that was on the front page last week) includes insulation above and below the foundation slab, vapour barriers, double studs to break thermal bridges, complex window installation (again thermal bridges), air exchangers and heat pumps with ducts (or mini-splits). New constructions (for cold zone), need to be air tight and that certainly comes at a cost in time as it is work to apply all the layers, run the conduits and whatnot.
- kodah 4y ago
  I have no data to back this observation up, but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately. Everyone's got a reason, but when you dig into them they all stink.
  - spamizbad 4y ago
    It's a convenient narrative. We're all suffering because the workers are too lazy!
  - dougmwne 4y ago
    Yeah those lazy builders need to stop working from home and put on a damn tie!
  - dumpsterlid 4y ago
    [dead]
  - swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
    From the mouth of CEOs it's clear they're trying to wrestle back low wages and unpaid overtime using shame. Especially out of touch when they bad mouth their own subordinates and think it doesn't reflect poorly on themselves. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-salesforce-employees-are-less-productive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-sale...
    - deleted 4y ago
MontyCarloHall 4y ago
Isn’t the real headline then that building construction technology hasn’t improved at the same rate as other manufacturing tech? For example, cars today are orders of magnitude more complicated than 50 years ago, but due to more efficient manufacturing technology, the auto industry has far higher productivity per employee than it did 50 years ago.
- softfalcon 4y ago
  I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. The weak link in creating ever more complex homes, with ever more stringent building codes, at faster rates, is to remove the "humans with nail guns and drills" from the construction process. At some point, us meat sacks are the weak link in optimizing an industry. Humans can only go so fast. That's why (as you've said) we've seen massive gains in productivity for other manufacturing industries.
  - ryanSrich 4y ago
    > I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. Are they doing anything different than what was available in a Sears catalog 50 years ago?
    - elil17 4y ago
      Yes, the manufacturing methods used in the factories are different today. For example, you can now have all the boards nailed together by robots. Other things are still the same. Electric wiring, for instance, is still a largely manual process.
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    Manufactured homes have been a thing for decades now. The problem with them is that their efficiency gains don't scale. It's relatively cost effective to produce a single-wide trailer, but not so much when producing cookie cutter two story homes with basements. For American-style suburban homes, it's most efficient to build most of the home on site, and only manufacture off-site a handful items like roof trusses. People might not realize this, but a small crew can frame several houses in a single (very, very long) day.
nemo44x 4y ago
> Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. Yeah pretty much this I suspect. The paper doesn't propose that more regulations and complex code is why it's harder to build things today. And that's not a bad thing - code is a great thing since it sets a standard. Houses from 100 years ago, a carpenter could just make game time decisions regarding things that are highly scrutinized today like staircase run/rise, doorway height, etc. If you gut an old house it's amazing how simple they are. The old saying "they don't build them like they used to" applies here. We don't because we can't and when they did they overbuilt them because they were simple and it wasn't documented what the build had to be.
- pixl97 4y ago
  Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress. When the frame is put up it is typically inspected to ensure it meets code and that correct fasteners and brackets are used. Until the inspection is done you don't see roofing and electrical finished up. Then you have the electrical and plumbing on top the foundation. And when that is in its inspected again. Also heating cooling piping. Then fiber insulation is put in walls, then you have your drywall installed. Then you have the different finish teams come in. Finish plumbing, cabinetry, tiling, floors. And then another round of builder inspection. Then you get to the city and bank inspections. Any one of the inspections or the specilaty teams running slow can push the whole project back. If your AC ducts aren't in you can't drywall for example.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress And this is a very good thing indeed. One thing I really love about the system here is we have detailed code and objective inspections based on it. Creates safe structures that can be planned and priced and immune to bribery.
rsynnott 4y ago
Higher proportion of apartment blocks (almost always higher cost per sqft, with the tradeoff being lower land use) also seems likely to be an issue.
arcticbull 4y ago
Youre exactly right. The average new home has twice the square footage it did in the 70s. [1] [1] https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-square-feet-per-person-as-in-1973/ https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-squa...
fortylove 4y ago
>6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. What do you mean by this?
- hindsightbias 4y ago
  https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/crash-course-in-control-layers https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/c...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - fortylove 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for the response. My confusion is that in American building, the term sheathing usually just refers to the outer layer of plywood that nails to the studs. Edit to add: this really hasn't changed all that much in the past 100 years. Our house is over 100 years old, and is built very similarly to a modern stick framed house, with the exception of not having insulation (when built), and with the sheathing being planks instead of plywood. Also, the lath&plaster interior walls were a lot more involved in making than modern drywall finishing.
conductr 4y ago
Homes are architecturally more complicated than the ranches and bungalows of the past as well. This increases the time spent on each job significantly.
RC_ITR 4y ago
There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are 2% of residential fires because cars don't really catch on fire in garages (fires happen in garages, but usually because of intentionally set fires getting out of control) So now, in the midst of a housing affordability crisis (or a the end of a great run for real estate, depending on your outlook), we have construction workers using special fire-resistant drywall (that must be cut specially and cannot have holes in it), placing solid steel doors, and generally spending a lot of hours and materials building spaces that people don't even live in, when really, adding smoke detectors in garages solves the problem. [0] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i12.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i12.pd...
- asdff 4y ago
  This even extends to stuff added to builds that are mandated by law and have little reasonable justification. For example, a city might demand all new apartment units need to have a balcony, and all new apartment buildings might need to have some open courtyard space. Now you've increased the cost per unit by a huge amount by mandating these balconies and also the unrentable voidspace.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    And this is part due to the fact that real estate has to (at least in part) be valued on hypothetical replacement cost. Can’t have apartment buildings reading hands for $100mn when a new one costs $20mn (or have the land sell for $80mn when you only allow 2 stories to be built on it).
- rovolo 4y ago
  The 2% is a bit misleading because the fire severity depends on how well it's contained. ~50% of fires are "confined" to an object, mostly cooking fires inside pots. Garages are 5% of non-confined fires, which is similar to living rooms (6%) and attics (5%) [0]. The numbers also go slightly up when apartment buildings are excluded[1], taking garage fires to 6% of non-confined residential fires. [0] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i2.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i2.pdf [1] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i6.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i6.pdf

latchkey 4y ago

I'm remodeling my place right now. You're totally right, the building codes are a lot more complex and there is more 'work' to do as a result. No more just hiding electrical boxes in the walls. Heh. That said, the products being used have improved a lot. Things like PEX tubing for plumbing (instead of copper) and glue on walls for showers (over doing tile work), make some aspects go a lot faster. Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention vinyl plank flooring... omg, so easy and the results look and function great.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
The big builders like DR Horton and Lennar target build times of 100 days per home that meets minimum code requirements, which is pretty good productivity. A community of 100 homes can be up and running in 2 years.
- nradov 4y ago
  And that 100 days target is mainly for achieving optimal efficiency. If you want to optimize for time it's totally possible to go from an empty lot to a finished house in under a week, provided that all the workers, inspectors, and materials are available.
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  [dead]
- conductr 4y ago
  Requires a ton of overhead at the planning / pre-construction phases. That’s only amortized out if you built a ton of volume which these do. It’s also why you may only have a choice of 8 floor plans even though it’s a neighborhood of 500 homes.
matwood 4y ago
PEX is great. I highly recommend keeping some shark bites and spare pieces of PEX around, as it's easy to do repairs on your own if you have an issue.
- joezydeco 4y ago
  I live in an area where the plumbing is soldered copper and the wiring is all in steel conduit. PEX, ProPress, Sharkbites, Romex... it's all just a little scary to me.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    I seriously can't recommend this guy enough for general repair/building work... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnorhjQR4zJkT7AVNhu395Q/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnorhjQR4zJkT7AVNhu395Q/vid... Friendly, super knowledgable, takes the fear out of the DIY. For electrical, I do a lot myself, but when it came to running a 50amp line + breaker panel inside my place (which also required outdoor ladder work) to replace the steel conduit indoors, I just hired a professional even though it was very expensive.
    - joezydeco 4y ago
      It's not the DIY aspect^, it's the idea of ProPress joint sitting pressurized behind a wall for a decade. ^ I'm knowledgeable enough to do my own wiring and plumbing, but pay for licensed/bonded contractors instead. I sleep better at night and my insurance company probably does as well.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        Up to you, but it honestly really isn't that much of an issue and I'd trust a simple properly crimped joint (which is easily visually inspected with a simple tool) a heck of a lot more than a welded one that is impossible to see what the inside looks like... um, did I put the right amount of flux on? did I know to use the 1/2 of solder to 1/2 of pipe trick? As far as insurance companies... I bought an old place... I'm finding all sorts of stuff that isn't up to code (hidden electrical boxes, in the floor!, with wire nuts and not even twisted together wire and not even grounded properly)... I'm bringing it up to code, with modern products... in a court of law, it is going to be hard for them to argue against me.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
Copper is superior. I specifically went out of my way to find a house with large swaths of the plumbing done with copper. Pretty neat to have anti-microbial properties built in.
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Copper inferior for productivity, which is what we are talking about here.
- _Adam 4y ago
  My pipes are all copper, and the hot water contains a non trivial amount of lead (from the solder used to join the pipes). I had it tested - around 20 ppb. We don't drink or cook with the hot water, but in theory if the plumbing was PEX we could.
  - Der_Einzige 4y ago
    What year was your house built? I really hope this is not a risk on things built after 2000 (or 1980?)
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Lead flux went away like 45 years ago. But sometimes galvanized pipe has some amount of lead in the zinc coating, and a mixed cooper/galvanized installation can accelerate corrosion. Post-Flint, lead is the new asbestos. Because the standard is zero tolerance, there’s alot of noise on the topic. PEX is great, but I’d personally always go for cooper if I could afford it. We tend to learn new things about plastic and risks over time.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      From 1986-2011 the EPA/congress defined "lead free" pipes as containing no more than 8% lead. In 1996, they banned plumbing that is not "lead free" from being sold. In 2011, the "lead free" definition was strengthened to a weighted average of 0.25%.
  - 4y ago
switch007 4y ago
Those glue on walls seemed to be priced at “we know how much tiling costs”. £36m2 (cheapest I could find on a site similar to Home Depot) for some composite plastic seems crazy. They have some double that price too.
- latchkey 4y ago
  Yes, they know the value and have priced accordingly. ~$800usd vs. tile+labor. Definitely a product that is ripe for disruption. There aren't even many manufacturers.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    > Definitely a product that is ripe for disruption. There aren't even many manufacturers. These two statements may be related. It’s not worth deploying capital to compete if the additional competition drives profits margins to zero. Better to deploy that capital somewhere it gets better expected returns. This anti-competitive logic seems very widespread these days with such centralized global supply chains and consolidated retail chains. Not a lot of room for me to deploy a small amount of capital to create a small-medium sized manufacturing facility of this stuff to chip away at 10-50% of the demand around the edges of the marginal profits. Mainly because it would be difficult to get my products into Home Depot and Lowe’s if I can’t supply their whole national chain. And that’s assuming Home Depot and Lowe’s haven’t agreed to any exclusivity with the current manufacturers which I’d need private equity money to beat.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      You're right on all fronts, my only comment is that there is a lot of room for product improvement though. $800+ for 3 sheets of plastic, and that is it, is absurd. They don't even interlock or have trim for the corners... example... https://www.homedepot.com/p/WOODBRIDGE-Haydon-32-in-x-60-in-x-96-in-Solid-Surface-3-Piece-Easy-Up-Adhesive-Alcove-Shower-Wall-Surround-in-High-Gloss-White-HWP4300/314842961 https://www.homedepot.com/p/WOODBRIDGE-Haydon-32-in-x-60-in-... Of course adding those items would cost even more, so it is a bit of a race to zero. That said, if you can get a following by homebuilders and into every single new housing project, it might be worth it. I'm sure having some sort of inside track advantage there would be necessary too. None of which I personally have, but as an end user of this stuff, I'd be more than happy to support and provide feedback on.
frankus 4y ago
The great thing about PEX is that they made an expensive* tool that makes joining pipes like 90% less skill-intensive. I'd love to see something similar done for electric wiring. I'm picturing something like an electrical box that you can directly connect Romex that's been stripped with a special tool, and then a circuit-breaker-style snap-in for the actual receptacle. The parts/tools would cost more but might dramatically speed up the installation. *relatively expensive, especially in the early days.
- mike50 4y ago
  Hubbel already makes this. https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Electrical-Electronic/Wiring-Devices/Straight-Blade-Devices/SnapConnect-Receptacles/c/2027718 https://www.hubbell.com/wiringdevice-kellems/en/Products/Ele...
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Neat but the speed up here just doesn't seem that extreme, I guess maybe if you're installing 10k of these a day. I feel like the time it takes to put the wires into the harness is just as much time as putting them straight into the receptacle and tightening the nut. I did start using wago's though... those are handy for sure.
RetpolineDrama 4y ago
>Things like PEX tubing for plumbing PEX is terrible, pretty much every commercial brand has been shown to leech petrochemicals into your water. This varies a lot based on your municipal water supply's characteristics. Unfortunately cleaner water leeches more. PEX saves megabuilders $$$ and plumbers time, but it's not good for you.

jaclaz 4y ago

I have no idea how much it affects the data used to make that calculation, nor how much is its relevance in the US, but here (EU, Italy) besides the building code improvements there has been a very noticeable increase in amount/complexity of electric and hydraulic/heating/conditioning installments.

belval 4y ago

Pretty sure this is the right answer and calling this "worker productivity" seems a bit harsh. A "Pretty Good House" (book that was on the front page last week) includes insulation above and below the foundation slab, vapour barriers, double studs to break thermal bridges, complex window installation (again thermal bridges), air exchangers and heat pumps with ducts (or mini-splits). New constructions (for cold zone), need to be air tight and that certainly comes at a cost in time as it is work to apply all the layers, run the conduits and whatnot.

kodah 4y ago
I have no data to back this observation up, but everyone (especially in the media, but also in corporate life) is attacking "worker productivity" lately. Everyone's got a reason, but when you dig into them they all stink.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  It's a convenient narrative. We're all suffering because the workers are too lazy!
- dougmwne 4y ago
  Yeah those lazy builders need to stop working from home and put on a damn tie!
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  [dead]
- swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
  From the mouth of CEOs it's clear they're trying to wrestle back low wages and unpaid overtime using shame. Especially out of touch when they bad mouth their own subordinates and think it doesn't reflect poorly on themselves. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-salesforce-employees-are-less-productive.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/16/marc-benioff-says-newer-sale...
  - deleted 4y ago

MontyCarloHall 4y ago

Isn’t the real headline then that building construction technology hasn’t improved at the same rate as other manufacturing tech? For example, cars today are orders of magnitude more complicated than 50 years ago, but due to more efficient manufacturing technology, the auto industry has far higher productivity per employee than it did 50 years ago.

softfalcon 4y ago
I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. The weak link in creating ever more complex homes, with ever more stringent building codes, at faster rates, is to remove the "humans with nail guns and drills" from the construction process. At some point, us meat sacks are the weak link in optimizing an industry. Humans can only go so fast. That's why (as you've said) we've seen massive gains in productivity for other manufacturing industries.
- ryanSrich 4y ago
  > I believe this is why we're seeing some of the industry starting to experiment with pre-fabbed homes that are modular but can be constructed using the automation we see in car manufacturing. Are they doing anything different than what was available in a Sears catalog 50 years ago?
  - elil17 4y ago
    Yes, the manufacturing methods used in the factories are different today. For example, you can now have all the boards nailed together by robots. Other things are still the same. Electric wiring, for instance, is still a largely manual process.
- mywittyname 4y ago
  Manufactured homes have been a thing for decades now. The problem with them is that their efficiency gains don't scale. It's relatively cost effective to produce a single-wide trailer, but not so much when producing cookie cutter two story homes with basements. For American-style suburban homes, it's most efficient to build most of the home on site, and only manufacture off-site a handful items like roof trusses. People might not realize this, but a small crew can frame several houses in a single (very, very long) day.

nemo44x 4y ago

> Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. Yeah pretty much this I suspect. The paper doesn't propose that more regulations and complex code is why it's harder to build things today. And that's not a bad thing - code is a great thing since it sets a standard. Houses from 100 years ago, a carpenter could just make game time decisions regarding things that are highly scrutinized today like staircase run/rise, doorway height, etc. If you gut an old house it's amazing how simple they are. The old saying "they don't build them like they used to" applies here. We don't because we can't and when they did they overbuilt them because they were simple and it wasn't documented what the build had to be.

pixl97 4y ago
Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress. When the frame is put up it is typically inspected to ensure it meets code and that correct fasteners and brackets are used. Until the inspection is done you don't see roofing and electrical finished up. Then you have the electrical and plumbing on top the foundation. And when that is in its inspected again. Also heating cooling piping. Then fiber insulation is put in walls, then you have your drywall installed. Then you have the different finish teams come in. Finish plumbing, cabinetry, tiling, floors. And then another round of builder inspection. Then you get to the city and bank inspections. Any one of the inspections or the specilaty teams running slow can push the whole project back. If your AC ducts aren't in you can't drywall for example.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress And this is a very good thing indeed. One thing I really love about the system here is we have detailed code and objective inspections based on it. Creates safe structures that can be planned and priced and immune to bribery.

rsynnott 4y ago

Higher proportion of apartment blocks (almost always higher cost per sqft, with the tradeoff being lower land use) also seems likely to be an issue.

arcticbull 4y ago

Youre exactly right. The average new home has twice the square footage it did in the 70s. [1] [1] https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-square-feet-per-person-as-in-1973/ https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-squa...

fortylove 4y ago

>6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. What do you mean by this?

hindsightbias 4y ago
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/crash-course-in-control-layers https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/c...
- deleted 4y ago
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- fortylove 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for the response. My confusion is that in American building, the term sheathing usually just refers to the outer layer of plywood that nails to the studs. Edit to add: this really hasn't changed all that much in the past 100 years. Our house is over 100 years old, and is built very similarly to a modern stick framed house, with the exception of not having insulation (when built), and with the sheathing being planks instead of plywood. Also, the lath&plaster interior walls were a lot more involved in making than modern drywall finishing.

conductr 4y ago

Homes are architecturally more complicated than the ranches and bungalows of the past as well. This increases the time spent on each job significantly.

RC_ITR 4y ago

There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are 2% of residential fires because cars don't really catch on fire in garages (fires happen in garages, but usually because of intentionally set fires getting out of control) So now, in the midst of a housing affordability crisis (or a the end of a great run for real estate, depending on your outlook), we have construction workers using special fire-resistant drywall (that must be cut specially and cannot have holes in it), placing solid steel doors, and generally spending a lot of hours and materials building spaces that people don't even live in, when really, adding smoke detectors in garages solves the problem. [0] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i12.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i12.pd...

asdff 4y ago
This even extends to stuff added to builds that are mandated by law and have little reasonable justification. For example, a city might demand all new apartment units need to have a balcony, and all new apartment buildings might need to have some open courtyard space. Now you've increased the cost per unit by a huge amount by mandating these balconies and also the unrentable voidspace.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  And this is part due to the fact that real estate has to (at least in part) be valued on hypothetical replacement cost. Can’t have apartment buildings reading hands for $100mn when a new one costs $20mn (or have the land sell for $80mn when you only allow 2 stories to be built on it).
rovolo 4y ago
The 2% is a bit misleading because the fire severity depends on how well it's contained. ~50% of fires are "confined" to an object, mostly cooking fires inside pots. Garages are 5% of non-confined fires, which is similar to living rooms (6%) and attics (5%) [0]. The numbers also go slightly up when apartment buildings are excluded[1], taking garage fires to 6% of non-confined residential fires. [0] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i2.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i2.pdf [1] https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i6.pdf https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v21i6.pdf