16 ms·

Realistic daily range of an electric vehicle

83 points by pforret 4y ago

gambiting 4y ago
So you deliberately don't charge the battery to 100% then conclude the realistic range is shorter than advertised? I get you don't charge to 100% every day, but if you know you're going to drive further then....you do. Or just do what I do and charge to max each time, the battery is warrantied for 8 years, it's going to be fine. >>Imagine your daily commute is 115 km (e.g. Roeselare-Brussel That would be an extremely unusual commute to be doing by car in Europe, people do it but it's very rare. If you're going to be covering over 1000km a week(!!!!) Then get a good diesel, not a brand new EX90.
- dheera 4y ago
  Read the fine print, battery being under warranty often means they can replace your battery with a USED one with upto 30% range degradation.
- richwater 4y ago
  That's a fantastic way to crater your cars resale value.
  - dheera 4y ago
    Why do Americans care so much about resale instead of just using the stuff you bought? If I ever buy a house it'll be to actually live life in it, not to nickel-and-dime some poor college student.
    - colordrops 4y ago
      It's double edged, the first edge is selfish, maximum extraction of value. The second is definitely not exclusive to Americans - taking care of your belongings and reducing the rate of sending things to landfill.
    - sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
      I agree this is a cultural problem. Houses are seen as retirement vehicle, etc. I think it's partially a sales tactic, to switch your brain into "investing" mode and willing to fork up a lot of cash and leverage (I'm "investing" in a Tesla, see how much gas i'll save?).
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > Why do Americans care so much about resale instead of just using the stuff you bought? I expect that you throw your old car away whenever you get a new one?
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Many of us do, yes. Drive it until it’s primary worth is scrap.
        pacerwpg 4y ago
        But that doesn't make a very good mobile status symbol.
        lelanthran 4y ago
        > Many of us do, yes. I doubt it, because > Drive it until it’s primary worth is scrap. But that means selling it for scrap, which is still not "throwing it away". Besides, a car that's 30 years old is still worth more than scrap, and even then, scrapped cars are still sold for money. So, no, there are very few people either throwing or giving their cars away after driving it for however long it lasted.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Because the better the resale, the nicer the car you can afford to replace it. Most new cars are kept for 3 years and traded in, (or leased) so the better the resale the more money to put into your next car. Or if you lease the less your lease will be. Those who buy used cars keep their cars longer, and are willing to pay more for a car they think will last longer.
      - dheera 4y ago
        Why not just get a much nicer and reliable car and keep it for 10-15 years?
        bluGill 4y ago
        The type of people who do that save money buy buying a 3 year old car. The people who buy new cars mostly wouldn't be seen in an older car.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    How so, exactly? There's no way for anyone to check how much a battery was charged regularly, just like there's no way to check if a car was only used to drive to church once a week or driven like a hooligan hitting redline all the time - I'm not suggesting fraud of course, far from it - just that buyers have to assume the worst possible use case, and if so I don't see how actually regularly charging the battery to max affects the resale value at all. Besides, I don't expect the resale value to be very high after 8 years(realistically more) anyway.
    - tppiotrowski 4y ago
      I believe the SoC (state of charge) history is recorded for Teslas and other EVs. There is a company called Recurrent [1] which uses this data to estimate battery degradation. I think the idea is to generate something like a Carfax report for used EV battery packs. [1] https://www.recurrentauto.com/ https://www.recurrentauto.com/
  - turtlebits 4y ago
    Yes, putting a lot of miles on any car is going to affect resale value.
- darth_avocado 4y ago
  Even if you do 100%, with just 1 year of used, my Tesla battery on 100% charge shows 320 miles, which is a far cry from 358 advertised. Plus the other estimates are correct. The range drops if it’s too cold, or if it is too hot, or if you use any of the features that the car advertises, or if you’re driving on a freeway, or if it is a stop and go traffic, or if you gain elevation, or basically if you use your car as a car. Don’t get me wrong, I still love my car and I would never drive an non EV again, and a non Tesla EV at the moment. But calling out the marketing bs is totally fair.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    EVs do much better in stop and go traffic. I wouldn’t be surprised if some even exceeds EPA range estimates in those cases.
    - jtc331 4y ago
      I doubt it would outperform EPA estimates (you can only recapture energy not create it afresh with regenerative braking), but compared to ICE cars the percentage of stated range would be very high.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        The Chevy Volt PHEV had an estimated 53-mile all electric range. During the summer, I routinely got 56-60, and once got 67.5 miles before the engine had to kick in.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        It’s because air resistance is a much bigger drag on efficiency for an EV, so stop and go traffic is a bit more closer to its ideal efficiency (which is going slow without stopping).
    - darth_avocado 4y ago
      My experience has been that the car does best when you’re driving at a steady speed of 25mph without having to stop. This is based on the internal chart that Tesla provides. When you’re in stop and go, you actually use a lot more energy to go from 0->X but do not regenerate back enough when you come down to 0. On the other hand, maintaining a steady 25mph uses a lot less energy as compared to 0->X. Again, this is based on the Tesla energy usage data that they themselves show in car.
- pforret 4y ago
  > What percentage should I charge the battery to? > > For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu. > [tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq](https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq) > There are two reasons: charging performance and battery longevity. Most of the time you should only charge an EV to 80% because charging rates slow down dramatically past the 80% mark. And two, the long-term health of your vehicle’s battery pack is improved when kept below 100%. > [witricity.com](https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/the-80-rule/ https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/the-80-rule/)
  - jtc331 4y ago
    The “charging slows down” is only true for DC fast charging. If you’re charging at home it doesn’t have an effect because the ratio of input energy to battery size is already so small.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    That's only true of NMC batteries, not of LFP ones, which their Model 3 SR now ships with. With LFP batteries, it's better for them to charge them to 100%.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > That would be an extremely unusual commute to be doing by car in Europe, people do it but it's very rare. If you're going to be covering over 1000km a week(!!!!) Then get a good diesel, not a brand new EX90. Aren't they in the middle of outlawing them?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    More than a decade from now, and that’s assuming the EV market continues to advance the technology as much as is predicted.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    There's no talk of outlawing any vehicles people already own. You won't be able to buy a brand new one in a decade, but there's no indication you won't be able to use one you already own.
    - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      Company cars in Belgium starting from this year have to be phev or ev. No more diesel or gasoline.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        As in, new cars that companies buy from this year, right? If your company already owns a diesel vehicle it can be still used, correct?
        rad_gruchalski 4y ago
        Yes, from this year and applies to new vehicles allocated to employees. Companies generally lease or long term rent in Belgium. What I hear, people are now replacing their car parks.
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  This is not uncommon for people in Belgium to commute that far, especially in software.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    Sure, there will be groups of people who are doing that. But to commute 200km a day? That will be something like 0.0001% of all workers, I cannot imagine it's any more than that.
    - WirelessGigabit 4y ago
      You'd be surprised. Belgium is weird. Lots of companies in Brussels, which is central in Belgium. And lots of people commute in. Every day, going and coming back. The freeways are clogged every morning going towards Brussels and every evening leaving Brussels.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        I can believe the motorways are clogged, it's a capital city after all - but who lives 100km away from their workplace, and why? I knew someone who did this in Germany, but his argument has always been that actually, this is "only" 30-60 minutes away on the autobahn depending on conditions(which I still think was nuts), but from what you're saying people accept 2-3 hours per day(!!!!) In a car just to get to work? That's nuts, and again, I really doubt it's common in any way shape or form.
ciconia 4y ago
I have a small electric car, with a range of about 100km. From my experience it really depends on your driving style and speed.
dheera 4y ago
Totally agree, EPA ranges are bullshit. The real world has these things called hills that they've probably never heard of in Washington DC. It also doesn't snow much in in DC so they probably don't know about that either. They really should be reporting 50% of their ranges as standard. When people get slightly better than that, they'll be pleasantly surprised and it will result in much more customer satisfaction across the board. ALWAYS underpromise and overdeliver if you want happy customers.
- rassimmoc 4y ago
  >>ALWAYS underpromise and overdeliver if you want happy customers. not if you have customers comparing you promise to competitions promise. In this case you will never have option to deliver anything
  - dheera 4y ago
    The EPA doesn't have competitors, they can totally do this just to increase electric car satisfaction which will help drive adoption. Everyone will be all over social media with videos saying how their car was rated for 300km but they got 400km out of it and EVs will start getting very, very positive reviews.
manmal 4y ago
Author first assumes that only 60% of the available battery capacity is used (80% > 20%) and then arrives at the conclusion that the range is lower than expected. Well, no shit. I personally do charge my Ioniq BEV to 100%, and I often drive it to, say, 6%. In summer, I get a range of 220km, and in winter 160-180km, depending on temperature and number of cold starts (cold starts seem to trigger a battery warm-up). SOH is still at 100% after almost 3 years.
- michpoch 4y ago
  What do you do when you arrive at the charger with 6% battery left and the charger doesn’t work? Or if there’s a significant queue?
  - sigio 4y ago
    Select charge-locations with 4+ chargers available, and in the larger charge-locations along motorway/freeway intersections, there's usually chargers from multiple networks/suppliers, so even failures on a backend of one provider can be worked around by using another network. Doing 2000km this week, I only encountered 1 case where I had to use the 50kw charger, as it was the only one available (there were 2 300kw chargers, 1 in use and 1 in maintenance-mode). Most charge-locations had 4+ available and unused stalls, with various locations having 10+ 150kw+ stations. Availability can be seen in many charge-apps miles before you get to the location, so if you see it at 75%+ capacity, select a different location.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      This is a very nice theory. Does not work in practice. Got into France, north of Troyes in Enyaq, last 20km in battery. Only chargers there in 30km perimeter are Freshmile 22kW chargers, which won't charge my car (can't start session, car refuses charger, tested 3 of them). Was able to save myself in local PSA dealership, which got their own charger and gave me 20km more so I can get to Troyes to Ionity charger. What is extremely annoying is * This is a large network, yet not compatible and there is no way to figure that out. * The car was actually trying to lead me on those charger via its own internal navigation, so even somebody who was creating this map believed that those chargers are compatible, yet they aren't. * I could never get into such situation with gas. In the most extreme case, I could have just use funnel to get the gas into the tank if hose would not be compatible with my car. So the fact that there are chargers around you means nothing at all if you don't know if they are working and are compatible without your car.
gcheong 4y ago
“In my case, I typically charge the car to 80%” My understanding is that the preservation of the battery is built into the charge controller and you shouldn’t have to worry about it. In other words when your car says it’s fully charged it’s only “really” charged to 80% or some other cutoff as determined by the charge controller. I don’t drive a Tesla so my only point of reference is my Fiat 500e which doesn’t have as far as I know a setting to limit battery charging to a certain percentage and I would think most consumers just plug in overnight without thought to this.
- colordrops 4y ago
  The Tesla notifies you that you will be shortening the life of the battery if you regularly charge to 100.
  - sowbug 4y ago
    Many Teslas being produced today use lithium-iron phosphate batteries, which can be charged to 100% without degradation. If you have an LFP-based Tesla, you won't get the notification.
  - inciampati 4y ago
    The author assumes that all EVs behave like Teslas. Other car manufacturers are aiming for simpler UI, and the charging system itself is meant to deal with the oddities of deciding exactly how much to charge the car to. For instance the often don't show a charge percentage but an estimated range with bounds. I apologize for not bringing a link but there is a beautiful story of real world range that shows that Teslas are systematically over reporting their range. It was posted recently. The author should probably read it before generalizing...
    - pforret 4y ago
      It doesn't matter if the 80/90% charging is hidden in the UI or not. The EPA uses a 100% -> 0% range, and all vendors use this range in their marketing material.Of course they do, because people compare product sheets when choosing. The actual range you will use day-to-day is way less. That's what I wanted to point out.
sigio 4y ago
Just did a 1000km (and back) drive this week, using a Kia Niro, which does about 400km on 64kWh. Was amazed I actually managed to drive this distance with 4 charges one way, and just 3 on the way back, reaching almost 400km actually on the first leg of the return trip (though this was downhill from the Alps). With longer roadtrips you want to go way below 20% remaining charge. With the quality of the charging-network in western-europe, and using ABetterRoadPlanner I managed to get a charge at 2% and a second one at 8% remaining, thus giving you 25% more capacity than re-charging at ~20% (~4-80 compared to 20-80). And this was with winter-tires and a full car. Sure, the actual range is still lower than the EPA / WLTP / NEDC range, but very usable and predictable.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  That's not really amazing. That's a massive waste of time. I got 260km per charge in Enyaq iv80 going 130km/h on highway so cca same as you. That's 2 hours of driving and 1 hour of charging on 150kW+ charger.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
stefap2 4y ago
So basically wait until the epa range of an electric car is 1600 miles. Then you may get 400 miles in cold weather comparable with an ice car.
- limitedsupply 4y ago
  Or just read the article and realize that the author doesn’t fully charge their car?..
  - pforret 4y ago
    Tesla advises 90% max, other sources advise charging to 80% to save battery performance. I use 80% for day-to-day, 90% for longer day trips, 100% for international travel. [tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq](https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq)
    - limitedsupply 4y ago
      I am aware of that. I charge my Tesla to about 50-70% as most of my infrequent trips are short. But I also don’t write articles complaining about low mileage.
      - pforret 4y ago
        This article was inspired by colleagues who are choosing their first EV and use the EPA range as an actual distance. I have colleagues that live > 100km from work. I wanted to point out that an EPA rating of 350km doesn't mean the car is a good match.
        limitedsupply 4y ago
        Good point. For daily long range commute EVs are not the best option right now. Even if you add some charge midway, it still takes 20–30 minutes, so not ideal. (Saying that, if gas prices are a major concern then EVs could still be the preferred choice.)
roamerz 4y ago
I thought this was a great real world analysis taking many factors into consideration.
michaelteter 4y ago
For occasional commutes, 115km one way is ok (not for me, but it's not unthinkable). But 115km each way (230km round trip) 5 days per week is a problem. We should not be doing this, at least not in individual cars. That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road, not to mention its contribution to general traffic. The focus should be on how to reduce the commute distance (or eliminate it as often as possible), and to build/use efficient mass transit systems. So much of our intellectual and financial energy seems to be directed toward overclocking the horse and buggy - with diminishing returns. At some point it's time to step back and rethink the greater system. (I believe that point was 20+ years ago, when it became clear that cities would continue to become the population growth centers.)
- Tade0 4y ago
  > That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road I hear this a lot, but how much pollution is it really? It surely doesn't register on any municipal particulate measurement station.
  - replygirl 4y ago
    https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      Interesting that driving style has such an outsized impact. Perhaps aggressive driving and tire composition should be regulated.
      - xnx 4y ago
        or tax tires
        4y ago
greendave 4y ago
Despite the provocative headline, it's not a bad rule of thumb. But at least in the US, pretty much any new EV you can buy has a rated range of 200 miles or more. More than 100 miles of commuting per day is a lot! Also, workplace charging is becoming more of a thing, and would effectively double your range without any additional inconvenience. Ironically, the inefficiency of ICEV engines is what makes them less variable in their range. First, you get heating for free because the engine produces an abundance of excess heat. Second, since the engines are at best 30% efficient, the effect of things like drag and grade are far less noticeable in terms of fuel consumption.
cs702 4y ago
My experience with EVs (Teslas): EVERYDAY CITY DRIVING - I drive whenever I need or want, without ever worrying about range. If I notice the expected range has dipped below ~60 miles, give or take, I plug it in at home at the end of my day. I'm delighted that I never have to go to a gas station, which reeks of all that smelly/poisonous/explosive stuff. LONG TRIPS - I charge to 100% the night before, get on the road, and stop to charge only if/when the software tells me I should. The longest trip I've taken is ~325 miles, and it requires only one 15-20 minute stop to get 150+ miles of range at a supercharger (I grab a snack and go to the bathroom). Whenever possible, I try to stay in/go to places with destination charging, so I can plug the EV and find it fully charged by next morning.
- msandford 4y ago
  I'm not sure I agree that 325mi is a long trip. I used to live in FL and you can drive more than 600mi and stay in the state. I now live in Texas where that number jumps to about 900mi. I'm sure in California it's at least 500mi. EVs can be great if your commute is less than 30mi one way, but that doesn't make them good for road trips. At least in the US.
  - cs702 4y ago
    It's the longest trip I have taken in an EV. I'm speaking only about my own experience.
  - Arainach 4y ago
    325mi is nearly 5 hours at 70mph. It's objectively a long trip.
  - DeRock 4y ago
    I’ve done >800 miles in a day a few times (San Jose <-> Seattle) with my EV (Ioniq 5). It was fine, stopped every 2-3 hours for 15-20 mins. Granted, it’s one of the better supplied charging corridors in the US, so your hassle/overhead may vary depending on where you are going.
  - spenrose 4y ago
bilsbie 4y ago
That doesn’t even factor in that you have to stop at a charger that’s not always at the end of your range. You stop where the chargers are.
turtlebits 4y ago
I charge my Bolt EV to 100% every day. Most manufacturers provide some headroom so rated capacity is less than actual and you aren't hitting 100% SOC, just what the car reports. What the OP also omits is that you gain range during fair weather. My Bolt EPA rating is 255 miles, but I've gotten 303 miles in the summer and as low as 191 in the winter.
- pforret 4y ago
  This is the first time I've heard anyone exceed their EPA range. 303 miles is impressive!
  - cperciva 4y ago
    I have the same experience with my Kona EV. Official range 415 km, but in the summer it's actually ~450 km. (Not that I ever run 100%-0% of course, but I get 90 km going from 80% down to 60%.)
    - dashundchen 4y ago
      Same with a Kia Niro EV I had, which is on a shared platform with the Kona. I think it was 239 miles EPA rated, in the summer it was quite easy to exceed. I don't have a lead foot and drive pretty efficiently though. Great car, good space, level 2 driver assists and very efficient which offset the slow DC charge speed. Relatively lightweight for an EV at 3800lbs as well.
      - notacoward 4y ago
        For a data point outside the Kia/Hyundai family, I get a similar experience with my Nissan Leaf. Nominal range is 215 miles, but I usually get 220-240 as long as it's all at lower speeds. If I get on the highway for any length of time, it's more like 150-200 depending on exactly how fast I go and whether it's winter. > the slow DC charge speed AFAICT this is one of the major differences between the semi-affordable EVs like ours and the Tesla/Jaguar/Audi kind. The Leaf might well be the worst in this regard TBH, but I certainly wasn't going to pay 50% more (at least) just for faster DC charging which I rarely use anyway. It's just one part of the overall experience, not worth that much to most of us.
bluecalm 4y ago
The author says his average mileage is 184Wh/km. I've seen similar numbers in other sources: about 200Wh/km. I am an avid cyclist. When I output 200W for an hour I can go 20-30km depending on the terrain. Maybe 15 if it's steep uphill all the way. Cyclists are not very aerodynamic. They sit high and have boxy shape. A small vehicle can be much more efficient (the reason recumbents beat standard bikes on a track). It all seems so wasteful to me. It's true sometimes you need to carry load or more people, or go to very steep uphill, or maybe sometimes you really need to go fast. In vast majority of cases though, especially inside populated areas it's one person and a short trip. You carry your 2 ton metal box with you, use 20-30x more energy than a cyclist would and take so much space traffic jams are inevitable. True innovation those electric cars. The very definition of missing the forest for a tree.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Wouldn’t you rather want to compare manually operating a bicycle to an electric bicycle? They’ve basically taken over China for more than a decade now, so it’s not like they are uncommon.
  - bluecalm 4y ago
    E-bikes are fine. My point was that bikes are not very efficient because of shitty aerodynamics. A light, low and narrow electric vehicle would be more efficient and more palatable to a lot of people than bikes.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Bikes aren’t typically going at speeds where aerodynamics is very relevant. Even E-bikes, maybe e-motorcycles have that problem?
      - bluecalm 4y ago
        It's not true at all! Most of the forces you have to overcome when cycling are from air resistance. At around 10mph it's already majority of resistance and at about 18mph it's more than 80%. This is the reason the best upgrade speed wise for a casual road cyclists are tight clothes. This is also the reason you could be way more efficient if you construct a tear drop shaped vehicle. Illustration from Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient
esturk 4y ago
"Cold weather has an influence on the battery capacity too." I take this to mean that the author acknowledges GAS cars are also affected by cold weather. There's just no escaping thermodynamics. It's also like pointing out GAS cars' MPG is reduced by 20%+ in cold weather. While it's true, it's like pointing out a gotcha edge case for all cars. So the conclusion can also apply the same way to GAS cars. 'Next time you estimate the mileage, take a 20% discount!' According to energy.gov[1]: Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips. [1] https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather#:~:text=Cold%20weather%20and%20winter%20driving,to%204%2Dmile)%20trips https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather....
- pforret 4y ago
  Actually I wasn't referring to ICE, just that the climate influenced the realistic daily range too. But your remark is very interesting, I would have thought that combustion did not suffer much from the cold.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    Maybe it’s air density with coefficient of drag that worsens in cold air.
    - cbsmith 4y ago
      I believe those were factors once upon a time, but modern cars tend to heavier and more aerodynamic than they once were, so drag is less of a factor... and the air gets warmed up prior to combustion, which minimizes the impact of its initial temperature.
- fwungy 4y ago
  I can fill up the gas car quickly almost anywhere if I'm running low on fuel. Also, survival time in a stuck ICE in Winter is much higher.
sam345 4y ago
This just shows another reason EVs are unrealistic at least in rural USA. 200 km or 125 miles in cold weather. And that's for a Tesla a top of the line EV. Even if you live in the city most people want ability to travel long distances. I just reviewed consumer reports reviews of EVs. Not at all impressed. Overall ratings were very low for most cars. Charging is proprietary for the most part or slow or just in general a hassle. To get decent reviews you need to spend $50k at minimum. The tax rebate may help to extend the fantasy for a while but even Tesla owners are getting disillusioned. For the most part Tesla has saturated the market for high end EVs and the rest are low quality or suffer technical problems. I mean the vision is enticing but most Americans won't put up with the expense and hassle. And attempts to legislate the hassle won't bode well for politicians or will result in the predictable deadline extensions. And this is not even taking into consideration the extreme burden it will put on the grid which is not at all prepared for hundreds of millions of electric vehicles.
- jabart 4y ago
  If you are driving an hour both ways every day in a cold climate, yeah, EV probably isn't the right fit for another couple of years. It's also an extreme end of usage. I imagine that a large portion of those people in a rural community don't drive more than 60 miles a day. It is also why the average commute per a person is not 125 miles but substantially less in the US. For reference, 125 miles is about Louisville, KY to Indianapolis, IN.
  - sam345 4y ago
    125 miles is nothing in the US. It's not about commuting, it's about road trips to the next city, the next state. Sure most people are not doing that every day but they are doing that a few times a year to visit friends, family, and for business. And then what? Meticulouly planning your charges and timing your breaks? or taking a bus or a plane? If you've just spent $50,000 on an EV I would imagine you want to drive not worry about whether you are going to be stuck without a charge. EV success is about selling to the average driver, not EV and green enthusiasts.
    - 4y ago
1970-01-01 4y ago
>Imagine your daily commute is 115 km (e.g. Roeselare-Brussel) and you can’t charge at the office. Then you need 230km realistic daily range, and probably more like 300km. The only cars that come near that, are the Volvo EX90 or the BMW i7. Those are not cheap cars. Realistic daily range is a bullshit phrase that assumes you will never have access to a fast charger. I understand realistic range, e.g. you can not go as far in cold, and daily range, e.g. you need to go 230km every day. I'm calling out how a combination of the two terms somehow excludes the ability to refuel when needed on that 230km commute. If you're going to be realistic, be realistic.
jvanderbot 4y ago
Model Y in cold climate here. While the sticker estimates of range are probably advertising, and the % battery to range meter you get in the app / dashboard is junk, the drive estimates are spot on. When you enter a destination, it will tell you very precisely how much energy it will take, accounting for every current condition, including temp. This must surely be data driven because it is alarmingly good. So your day to day use will not involve these guessing games, imho
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  For example, when driving a long distance (150m+), it told me that I could have saved X miles if my tires were inflated another 5psi, and saved Y miles if I had used less cabin heating.
  - jaggederest 4y ago
    That's impressive. I can see accounting for the state of the world, weather, and the elevation change and cornering between A and B, but being able to generate counterfactuals "if X were true or Y were true" is strong stuff.
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  This is the point my EV-skeptical relatives don't get. "What are you going to do if the battery runs out in the middle of nowhere?" they ask. "The same thing you will do if you run out of gas in the middle of nowhere: Call a tow truck." I reply. I cannot get them to understand that they're asking the wrong question. The right question is "How do you ensure that you won't unexpectedly run out of energy?" They don't run out of gas in the middle of nowhere because gas stations are everywhere. I don't run out of energy because the car does an exquisite job of tracking and predicting energy usage, as well as helping me find charging locations. It's an alternative (and IMO better) solution to the problem of running out of energy, but too many ICE drivers cannot conceive that there even could be another solution than "gas stations everywhere."
tensor 4y ago
If you preheat the battery I've noticed far better winter driving range. In fact, I only recently noticed because I always preheat the cabin which preheats the battery. Recently I didn't do that and was pretty surprised at how much energy it used while it warmed up. If you typically plug in at home you should always be preheating the car before going out.
simonjgreen 4y ago
Calling out an enormous assumed fact in this article that I very much doubt is the case. Author claims people don't charge to 100%: they absolutely do.
SaintSeiya 4y ago
[flagged]
notacoward 4y ago
The author is claiming way more (and worse) than they can actually back up. Different EVs actually get different percentages of their nominal mileage, and then respond differently to cold weather. I like this one for range under semi-optimal conditions. https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ Here's some "winter effect" info for different models. https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss I'd take that second one with a little grain of salt, though. I know that my 2022 Nissan Leaf SV+ gets more than the 175 miles they claim for summer (as long as I keep my speed down which is another factor OP seems to ignore). Haven't really given it a real winter workout, but I'd expect that number to be a bit higher than that table's 125 too. That's a very far cry from OP's claim of only ~110 miles. Some might try to dismiss that as anecdata, but so is OP. Claims based on their one empirical observation, failing to account for known confounders and clearly wrong for a second sample, are kind of worthless. I'm not trying to propose any grand theory like they are. Find out the right numbers for your vehicle, routes, temperatures, and driving style.

83 points by pforret 4y ago

So you deliberately don't charge the battery to 100% then conclude the realistic range is shorter than advertised? I get you don't charge to 100% every day, but if you know you're going to drive further then....you do. Or just do what I do and charge to max each time, the battery is warrantied for 8 years, it's going to be fine. >>Imagine your daily commute is 115 km (e.g. Roeselare-Brussel That would be an extremely unusual commute to be doing by car in Europe, people do it but it's very rare. If you're going to be covering over 1000km a week(!!!!) Then get a good diesel, not a brand new EX90.

dheera 4y ago
Read the fine print, battery being under warranty often means they can replace your battery with a USED one with upto 30% range degradation.
richwater 4y ago
That's a fantastic way to crater your cars resale value.
- dheera 4y ago
  Why do Americans care so much about resale instead of just using the stuff you bought? If I ever buy a house it'll be to actually live life in it, not to nickel-and-dime some poor college student.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    It's double edged, the first edge is selfish, maximum extraction of value. The second is definitely not exclusive to Americans - taking care of your belongings and reducing the rate of sending things to landfill.
  - sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
    I agree this is a cultural problem. Houses are seen as retirement vehicle, etc. I think it's partially a sales tactic, to switch your brain into "investing" mode and willing to fork up a lot of cash and leverage (I'm "investing" in a Tesla, see how much gas i'll save?).
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Why do Americans care so much about resale instead of just using the stuff you bought? I expect that you throw your old car away whenever you get a new one?
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Many of us do, yes. Drive it until it’s primary worth is scrap.
      - pacerwpg 4y ago
        But that doesn't make a very good mobile status symbol.
      - lelanthran 4y ago
        > Many of us do, yes. I doubt it, because > Drive it until it’s primary worth is scrap. But that means selling it for scrap, which is still not "throwing it away". Besides, a car that's 30 years old is still worth more than scrap, and even then, scrapped cars are still sold for money. So, no, there are very few people either throwing or giving their cars away after driving it for however long it lasted.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Because the better the resale, the nicer the car you can afford to replace it. Most new cars are kept for 3 years and traded in, (or leased) so the better the resale the more money to put into your next car. Or if you lease the less your lease will be. Those who buy used cars keep their cars longer, and are willing to pay more for a car they think will last longer.
    - dheera 4y ago
      Why not just get a much nicer and reliable car and keep it for 10-15 years?
      - bluGill 4y ago
        The type of people who do that save money buy buying a 3 year old car. The people who buy new cars mostly wouldn't be seen in an older car.
- gambiting 4y ago
  How so, exactly? There's no way for anyone to check how much a battery was charged regularly, just like there's no way to check if a car was only used to drive to church once a week or driven like a hooligan hitting redline all the time - I'm not suggesting fraud of course, far from it - just that buyers have to assume the worst possible use case, and if so I don't see how actually regularly charging the battery to max affects the resale value at all. Besides, I don't expect the resale value to be very high after 8 years(realistically more) anyway.
  - tppiotrowski 4y ago
    I believe the SoC (state of charge) history is recorded for Teslas and other EVs. There is a company called Recurrent [1] which uses this data to estimate battery degradation. I think the idea is to generate something like a Carfax report for used EV battery packs. [1] https://www.recurrentauto.com/ https://www.recurrentauto.com/
- turtlebits 4y ago
  Yes, putting a lot of miles on any car is going to affect resale value.
darth_avocado 4y ago
Even if you do 100%, with just 1 year of used, my Tesla battery on 100% charge shows 320 miles, which is a far cry from 358 advertised. Plus the other estimates are correct. The range drops if it’s too cold, or if it is too hot, or if you use any of the features that the car advertises, or if you’re driving on a freeway, or if it is a stop and go traffic, or if you gain elevation, or basically if you use your car as a car. Don’t get me wrong, I still love my car and I would never drive an non EV again, and a non Tesla EV at the moment. But calling out the marketing bs is totally fair.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  EVs do much better in stop and go traffic. I wouldn’t be surprised if some even exceeds EPA range estimates in those cases.
  - jtc331 4y ago
    I doubt it would outperform EPA estimates (you can only recapture energy not create it afresh with regenerative braking), but compared to ICE cars the percentage of stated range would be very high.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      The Chevy Volt PHEV had an estimated 53-mile all electric range. During the summer, I routinely got 56-60, and once got 67.5 miles before the engine had to kick in.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      It’s because air resistance is a much bigger drag on efficiency for an EV, so stop and go traffic is a bit more closer to its ideal efficiency (which is going slow without stopping).
  - darth_avocado 4y ago
    My experience has been that the car does best when you’re driving at a steady speed of 25mph without having to stop. This is based on the internal chart that Tesla provides. When you’re in stop and go, you actually use a lot more energy to go from 0->X but do not regenerate back enough when you come down to 0. On the other hand, maintaining a steady 25mph uses a lot less energy as compared to 0->X. Again, this is based on the Tesla energy usage data that they themselves show in car.
pforret 4y ago
> What percentage should I charge the battery to? > > For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu. > [tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq](https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq) > There are two reasons: charging performance and battery longevity. Most of the time you should only charge an EV to 80% because charging rates slow down dramatically past the 80% mark. And two, the long-term health of your vehicle’s battery pack is improved when kept below 100%. > [witricity.com](https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/the-80-rule/ https://witricity.com/newsroom/blog/the-80-rule/)
- jtc331 4y ago
  The “charging slows down” is only true for DC fast charging. If you’re charging at home it doesn’t have an effect because the ratio of input energy to battery size is already so small.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  That's only true of NMC batteries, not of LFP ones, which their Model 3 SR now ships with. With LFP batteries, it's better for them to charge them to 100%.
lelanthran 4y ago
> That would be an extremely unusual commute to be doing by car in Europe, people do it but it's very rare. If you're going to be covering over 1000km a week(!!!!) Then get a good diesel, not a brand new EX90. Aren't they in the middle of outlawing them?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  More than a decade from now, and that’s assuming the EV market continues to advance the technology as much as is predicted.
- gambiting 4y ago
  There's no talk of outlawing any vehicles people already own. You won't be able to buy a brand new one in a decade, but there's no indication you won't be able to use one you already own.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    Company cars in Belgium starting from this year have to be phev or ev. No more diesel or gasoline.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      As in, new cars that companies buy from this year, right? If your company already owns a diesel vehicle it can be still used, correct?
      - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
        Yes, from this year and applies to new vehicles allocated to employees. Companies generally lease or long term rent in Belgium. What I hear, people are now replacing their car parks.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
This is not uncommon for people in Belgium to commute that far, especially in software.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Sure, there will be groups of people who are doing that. But to commute 200km a day? That will be something like 0.0001% of all workers, I cannot imagine it's any more than that.
  - WirelessGigabit 4y ago
    You'd be surprised. Belgium is weird. Lots of companies in Brussels, which is central in Belgium. And lots of people commute in. Every day, going and coming back. The freeways are clogged every morning going towards Brussels and every evening leaving Brussels.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      I can believe the motorways are clogged, it's a capital city after all - but who lives 100km away from their workplace, and why? I knew someone who did this in Germany, but his argument has always been that actually, this is "only" 30-60 minutes away on the autobahn depending on conditions(which I still think was nuts), but from what you're saying people accept 2-3 hours per day(!!!!) In a car just to get to work? That's nuts, and again, I really doubt it's common in any way shape or form.

ciconia 4y ago

I have a small electric car, with a range of about 100km. From my experience it really depends on your driving style and speed.

dheera 4y ago

Totally agree, EPA ranges are bullshit. The real world has these things called hills that they've probably never heard of in Washington DC. It also doesn't snow much in in DC so they probably don't know about that either. They really should be reporting 50% of their ranges as standard. When people get slightly better than that, they'll be pleasantly surprised and it will result in much more customer satisfaction across the board. ALWAYS underpromise and overdeliver if you want happy customers.

rassimmoc 4y ago
>>ALWAYS underpromise and overdeliver if you want happy customers. not if you have customers comparing you promise to competitions promise. In this case you will never have option to deliver anything
- dheera 4y ago
  The EPA doesn't have competitors, they can totally do this just to increase electric car satisfaction which will help drive adoption. Everyone will be all over social media with videos saying how their car was rated for 300km but they got 400km out of it and EVs will start getting very, very positive reviews.

manmal 4y ago

Author first assumes that only 60% of the available battery capacity is used (80% > 20%) and then arrives at the conclusion that the range is lower than expected. Well, no shit. I personally do charge my Ioniq BEV to 100%, and I often drive it to, say, 6%. In summer, I get a range of 220km, and in winter 160-180km, depending on temperature and number of cold starts (cold starts seem to trigger a battery warm-up). SOH is still at 100% after almost 3 years.

michpoch 4y ago
What do you do when you arrive at the charger with 6% battery left and the charger doesn’t work? Or if there’s a significant queue?
- sigio 4y ago
  Select charge-locations with 4+ chargers available, and in the larger charge-locations along motorway/freeway intersections, there's usually chargers from multiple networks/suppliers, so even failures on a backend of one provider can be worked around by using another network. Doing 2000km this week, I only encountered 1 case where I had to use the 50kw charger, as it was the only one available (there were 2 300kw chargers, 1 in use and 1 in maintenance-mode). Most charge-locations had 4+ available and unused stalls, with various locations having 10+ 150kw+ stations. Availability can be seen in many charge-apps miles before you get to the location, so if you see it at 75%+ capacity, select a different location.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    This is a very nice theory. Does not work in practice. Got into France, north of Troyes in Enyaq, last 20km in battery. Only chargers there in 30km perimeter are Freshmile 22kW chargers, which won't charge my car (can't start session, car refuses charger, tested 3 of them). Was able to save myself in local PSA dealership, which got their own charger and gave me 20km more so I can get to Troyes to Ionity charger. What is extremely annoying is * This is a large network, yet not compatible and there is no way to figure that out. * The car was actually trying to lead me on those charger via its own internal navigation, so even somebody who was creating this map believed that those chargers are compatible, yet they aren't. * I could never get into such situation with gas. In the most extreme case, I could have just use funnel to get the gas into the tank if hose would not be compatible with my car. So the fact that there are chargers around you means nothing at all if you don't know if they are working and are compatible without your car.

gcheong 4y ago

“In my case, I typically charge the car to 80%” My understanding is that the preservation of the battery is built into the charge controller and you shouldn’t have to worry about it. In other words when your car says it’s fully charged it’s only “really” charged to 80% or some other cutoff as determined by the charge controller. I don’t drive a Tesla so my only point of reference is my Fiat 500e which doesn’t have as far as I know a setting to limit battery charging to a certain percentage and I would think most consumers just plug in overnight without thought to this.

colordrops 4y ago
The Tesla notifies you that you will be shortening the life of the battery if you regularly charge to 100.
- sowbug 4y ago
  Many Teslas being produced today use lithium-iron phosphate batteries, which can be charged to 100% without degradation. If you have an LFP-based Tesla, you won't get the notification.
- inciampati 4y ago
  The author assumes that all EVs behave like Teslas. Other car manufacturers are aiming for simpler UI, and the charging system itself is meant to deal with the oddities of deciding exactly how much to charge the car to. For instance the often don't show a charge percentage but an estimated range with bounds. I apologize for not bringing a link but there is a beautiful story of real world range that shows that Teslas are systematically over reporting their range. It was posted recently. The author should probably read it before generalizing...
  - pforret 4y ago
    It doesn't matter if the 80/90% charging is hidden in the UI or not. The EPA uses a 100% -> 0% range, and all vendors use this range in their marketing material.Of course they do, because people compare product sheets when choosing. The actual range you will use day-to-day is way less. That's what I wanted to point out.

sigio 4y ago

Just did a 1000km (and back) drive this week, using a Kia Niro, which does about 400km on 64kWh. Was amazed I actually managed to drive this distance with 4 charges one way, and just 3 on the way back, reaching almost 400km actually on the first leg of the return trip (though this was downhill from the Alps). With longer roadtrips you want to go way below 20% remaining charge. With the quality of the charging-network in western-europe, and using ABetterRoadPlanner I managed to get a charge at 2% and a second one at 8% remaining, thus giving you 25% more capacity than re-charging at ~20% (~4-80 compared to 20-80). And this was with winter-tires and a full car. Sure, the actual range is still lower than the EPA / WLTP / NEDC range, but very usable and predictable.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
That's not really amazing. That's a massive waste of time. I got 260km per charge in Enyaq iv80 going 130km/h on highway so cca same as you. That's 2 hours of driving and 1 hour of charging on 150kW+ charger.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

stefap2 4y ago

So basically wait until the epa range of an electric car is 1600 miles. Then you may get 400 miles in cold weather comparable with an ice car.

limitedsupply 4y ago
Or just read the article and realize that the author doesn’t fully charge their car?..
- pforret 4y ago
  Tesla advises 90% max, other sources advise charging to 80% to save battery performance. I use 80% for day-to-day, 90% for longer day trips, 100% for international travel. [tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq](https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq)
  - limitedsupply 4y ago
    I am aware of that. I charge my Tesla to about 50-70% as most of my infrequent trips are short. But I also don’t write articles complaining about low mileage.
    - pforret 4y ago
      This article was inspired by colleagues who are choosing their first EV and use the EPA range as an actual distance. I have colleagues that live > 100km from work. I wanted to point out that an EPA rating of 350km doesn't mean the car is a good match.
      - limitedsupply 4y ago
        Good point. For daily long range commute EVs are not the best option right now. Even if you add some charge midway, it still takes 20–30 minutes, so not ideal. (Saying that, if gas prices are a major concern then EVs could still be the preferred choice.)

roamerz 4y ago

I thought this was a great real world analysis taking many factors into consideration.

michaelteter 4y ago

For occasional commutes, 115km one way is ok (not for me, but it's not unthinkable). But 115km each way (230km round trip) 5 days per week is a problem. We should not be doing this, at least not in individual cars. That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road, not to mention its contribution to general traffic. The focus should be on how to reduce the commute distance (or eliminate it as often as possible), and to build/use efficient mass transit systems. So much of our intellectual and financial energy seems to be directed toward overclocking the horse and buggy - with diminishing returns. At some point it's time to step back and rethink the greater system. (I believe that point was 20+ years ago, when it became clear that cities would continue to become the population growth centers.)

Tade0 4y ago
> That electric car is still creating a lot of particulate pollution from the tires on the road I hear this a lot, but how much pollution is it really? It surely doesn't register on any municipal particulate measurement station.
- replygirl 4y ago
  https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyres-produce-more-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre...
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    Interesting that driving style has such an outsized impact. Perhaps aggressive driving and tire composition should be regulated.
    - xnx 4y ago
      or tax tires
      - 4y ago

greendave 4y ago

Despite the provocative headline, it's not a bad rule of thumb. But at least in the US, pretty much any new EV you can buy has a rated range of 200 miles or more. More than 100 miles of commuting per day is a lot! Also, workplace charging is becoming more of a thing, and would effectively double your range without any additional inconvenience. Ironically, the inefficiency of ICEV engines is what makes them less variable in their range. First, you get heating for free because the engine produces an abundance of excess heat. Second, since the engines are at best 30% efficient, the effect of things like drag and grade are far less noticeable in terms of fuel consumption.

cs702 4y ago

My experience with EVs (Teslas): EVERYDAY CITY DRIVING - I drive whenever I need or want, without ever worrying about range. If I notice the expected range has dipped below ~60 miles, give or take, I plug it in at home at the end of my day. I'm delighted that I never have to go to a gas station, which reeks of all that smelly/poisonous/explosive stuff. LONG TRIPS - I charge to 100% the night before, get on the road, and stop to charge only if/when the software tells me I should. The longest trip I've taken is ~325 miles, and it requires only one 15-20 minute stop to get 150+ miles of range at a supercharger (I grab a snack and go to the bathroom). Whenever possible, I try to stay in/go to places with destination charging, so I can plug the EV and find it fully charged by next morning.

msandford 4y ago
I'm not sure I agree that 325mi is a long trip. I used to live in FL and you can drive more than 600mi and stay in the state. I now live in Texas where that number jumps to about 900mi. I'm sure in California it's at least 500mi. EVs can be great if your commute is less than 30mi one way, but that doesn't make them good for road trips. At least in the US.
- cs702 4y ago
  It's the longest trip I have taken in an EV. I'm speaking only about my own experience.
- Arainach 4y ago
  325mi is nearly 5 hours at 70mph. It's objectively a long trip.
- DeRock 4y ago
  I’ve done >800 miles in a day a few times (San Jose <-> Seattle) with my EV (Ioniq 5). It was fine, stopped every 2-3 hours for 15-20 mins. Granted, it’s one of the better supplied charging corridors in the US, so your hassle/overhead may vary depending on where you are going.
- spenrose 4y ago

bilsbie 4y ago

That doesn’t even factor in that you have to stop at a charger that’s not always at the end of your range. You stop where the chargers are.

turtlebits 4y ago

I charge my Bolt EV to 100% every day. Most manufacturers provide some headroom so rated capacity is less than actual and you aren't hitting 100% SOC, just what the car reports. What the OP also omits is that you gain range during fair weather. My Bolt EPA rating is 255 miles, but I've gotten 303 miles in the summer and as low as 191 in the winter.

pforret 4y ago
This is the first time I've heard anyone exceed their EPA range. 303 miles is impressive!
- cperciva 4y ago
  I have the same experience with my Kona EV. Official range 415 km, but in the summer it's actually ~450 km. (Not that I ever run 100%-0% of course, but I get 90 km going from 80% down to 60%.)
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    Same with a Kia Niro EV I had, which is on a shared platform with the Kona. I think it was 239 miles EPA rated, in the summer it was quite easy to exceed. I don't have a lead foot and drive pretty efficiently though. Great car, good space, level 2 driver assists and very efficient which offset the slow DC charge speed. Relatively lightweight for an EV at 3800lbs as well.
    - notacoward 4y ago
      For a data point outside the Kia/Hyundai family, I get a similar experience with my Nissan Leaf. Nominal range is 215 miles, but I usually get 220-240 as long as it's all at lower speeds. If I get on the highway for any length of time, it's more like 150-200 depending on exactly how fast I go and whether it's winter. > the slow DC charge speed AFAICT this is one of the major differences between the semi-affordable EVs like ours and the Tesla/Jaguar/Audi kind. The Leaf might well be the worst in this regard TBH, but I certainly wasn't going to pay 50% more (at least) just for faster DC charging which I rarely use anyway. It's just one part of the overall experience, not worth that much to most of us.

bluecalm 4y ago

The author says his average mileage is 184Wh/km. I've seen similar numbers in other sources: about 200Wh/km. I am an avid cyclist. When I output 200W for an hour I can go 20-30km depending on the terrain. Maybe 15 if it's steep uphill all the way. Cyclists are not very aerodynamic. They sit high and have boxy shape. A small vehicle can be much more efficient (the reason recumbents beat standard bikes on a track). It all seems so wasteful to me. It's true sometimes you need to carry load or more people, or go to very steep uphill, or maybe sometimes you really need to go fast. In vast majority of cases though, especially inside populated areas it's one person and a short trip. You carry your 2 ton metal box with you, use 20-30x more energy than a cyclist would and take so much space traffic jams are inevitable. True innovation those electric cars. The very definition of missing the forest for a tree.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Wouldn’t you rather want to compare manually operating a bicycle to an electric bicycle? They’ve basically taken over China for more than a decade now, so it’s not like they are uncommon.
- bluecalm 4y ago
  E-bikes are fine. My point was that bikes are not very efficient because of shitty aerodynamics. A light, low and narrow electric vehicle would be more efficient and more palatable to a lot of people than bikes.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Bikes aren’t typically going at speeds where aerodynamics is very relevant. Even E-bikes, maybe e-motorcycles have that problem?
    - bluecalm 4y ago
      It's not true at all! Most of the forces you have to overcome when cycling are from air resistance. At around 10mph it's already majority of resistance and at about 18mph it's more than 80%. This is the reason the best upgrade speed wise for a casual road cyclists are tight clothes. This is also the reason you could be way more efficient if you construct a tear drop shaped vehicle. Illustration from Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient

esturk 4y ago

"Cold weather has an influence on the battery capacity too." I take this to mean that the author acknowledges GAS cars are also affected by cold weather. There's just no escaping thermodynamics. It's also like pointing out GAS cars' MPG is reduced by 20%+ in cold weather. While it's true, it's like pointing out a gotcha edge case for all cars. So the conclusion can also apply the same way to GAS cars. 'Next time you estimate the mileage, take a 20% discount!' According to energy.gov[1]: Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips. [1] https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather#:~:text=Cold%20weather%20and%20winter%20driving,to%204%2Dmile)%20trips https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather....

pforret 4y ago
Actually I wasn't referring to ICE, just that the climate influenced the realistic daily range too. But your remark is very interesting, I would have thought that combustion did not suffer much from the cold.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  Maybe it’s air density with coefficient of drag that worsens in cold air.
  - cbsmith 4y ago
    I believe those were factors once upon a time, but modern cars tend to heavier and more aerodynamic than they once were, so drag is less of a factor... and the air gets warmed up prior to combustion, which minimizes the impact of its initial temperature.
fwungy 4y ago
I can fill up the gas car quickly almost anywhere if I'm running low on fuel. Also, survival time in a stuck ICE in Winter is much higher.

sam345 4y ago

This just shows another reason EVs are unrealistic at least in rural USA. 200 km or 125 miles in cold weather. And that's for a Tesla a top of the line EV. Even if you live in the city most people want ability to travel long distances. I just reviewed consumer reports reviews of EVs. Not at all impressed. Overall ratings were very low for most cars. Charging is proprietary for the most part or slow or just in general a hassle. To get decent reviews you need to spend $50k at minimum. The tax rebate may help to extend the fantasy for a while but even Tesla owners are getting disillusioned. For the most part Tesla has saturated the market for high end EVs and the rest are low quality or suffer technical problems. I mean the vision is enticing but most Americans won't put up with the expense and hassle. And attempts to legislate the hassle won't bode well for politicians or will result in the predictable deadline extensions. And this is not even taking into consideration the extreme burden it will put on the grid which is not at all prepared for hundreds of millions of electric vehicles.

jabart 4y ago
If you are driving an hour both ways every day in a cold climate, yeah, EV probably isn't the right fit for another couple of years. It's also an extreme end of usage. I imagine that a large portion of those people in a rural community don't drive more than 60 miles a day. It is also why the average commute per a person is not 125 miles but substantially less in the US. For reference, 125 miles is about Louisville, KY to Indianapolis, IN.
- sam345 4y ago
  125 miles is nothing in the US. It's not about commuting, it's about road trips to the next city, the next state. Sure most people are not doing that every day but they are doing that a few times a year to visit friends, family, and for business. And then what? Meticulouly planning your charges and timing your breaks? or taking a bus or a plane? If you've just spent $50,000 on an EV I would imagine you want to drive not worry about whether you are going to be stuck without a charge. EV success is about selling to the average driver, not EV and green enthusiasts.
  - 4y ago

1970-01-01 4y ago

>Imagine your daily commute is 115 km (e.g. Roeselare-Brussel) and you can’t charge at the office. Then you need 230km realistic daily range, and probably more like 300km. The only cars that come near that, are the Volvo EX90 or the BMW i7. Those are not cheap cars. Realistic daily range is a bullshit phrase that assumes you will never have access to a fast charger. I understand realistic range, e.g. you can not go as far in cold, and daily range, e.g. you need to go 230km every day. I'm calling out how a combination of the two terms somehow excludes the ability to refuel when needed on that 230km commute. If you're going to be realistic, be realistic.

jvanderbot 4y ago

Model Y in cold climate here. While the sticker estimates of range are probably advertising, and the % battery to range meter you get in the app / dashboard is junk, the drive estimates are spot on. When you enter a destination, it will tell you very precisely how much energy it will take, accounting for every current condition, including temp. This must surely be data driven because it is alarmingly good. So your day to day use will not involve these guessing games, imho

jvanderbot 4y ago
For example, when driving a long distance (150m+), it told me that I could have saved X miles if my tires were inflated another 5psi, and saved Y miles if I had used less cabin heating.
- jaggederest 4y ago
  That's impressive. I can see accounting for the state of the world, weather, and the elevation change and cornering between A and B, but being able to generate counterfactuals "if X were true or Y were true" is strong stuff.
dreamcompiler 4y ago
This is the point my EV-skeptical relatives don't get. "What are you going to do if the battery runs out in the middle of nowhere?" they ask. "The same thing you will do if you run out of gas in the middle of nowhere: Call a tow truck." I reply. I cannot get them to understand that they're asking the wrong question. The right question is "How do you ensure that you won't unexpectedly run out of energy?" They don't run out of gas in the middle of nowhere because gas stations are everywhere. I don't run out of energy because the car does an exquisite job of tracking and predicting energy usage, as well as helping me find charging locations. It's an alternative (and IMO better) solution to the problem of running out of energy, but too many ICE drivers cannot conceive that there even could be another solution than "gas stations everywhere."

tensor 4y ago

If you preheat the battery I've noticed far better winter driving range. In fact, I only recently noticed because I always preheat the cabin which preheats the battery. Recently I didn't do that and was pretty surprised at how much energy it used while it warmed up. If you typically plug in at home you should always be preheating the car before going out.

simonjgreen 4y ago

Calling out an enormous assumed fact in this article that I very much doubt is the case. Author claims people don't charge to 100%: they absolutely do.

SaintSeiya 4y ago

[flagged]

notacoward 4y ago

The author is claiming way more (and worse) than they can actually back up. Different EVs actually get different percentages of their nominal mileage, and then respond differently to cold weather. I like this one for range under semi-optimal conditions. https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ Here's some "winter effect" info for different models. https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss I'd take that second one with a little grain of salt, though. I know that my 2022 Nissan Leaf SV+ gets more than the 175 miles they claim for summer (as long as I keep my speed down which is another factor OP seems to ignore). Haven't really given it a real winter workout, but I'd expect that number to be a bit higher than that table's 125 too. That's a very far cry from OP's claim of only ~110 miles. Some might try to dismiss that as anecdata, but so is OP. Claims based on their one empirical observation, failing to account for known confounders and clearly wrong for a second sample, are kind of worthless. I'm not trying to propose any grand theory like they are. Find out the right numbers for your vehicle, routes, temperatures, and driving style.