12 ms·

How bad the pizza box is

78 points by kimnamjoon 4y ago

colpabar 4y ago
http://archive.today/TlJGc http://archive.today/TlJGc
contingencies 4y ago
After smoking a lot of weed, I have come up with a lot of ideas for a better box,” said Bellucci Poor journalism to include this quote without a summary of the ideas engendered. John Correll, a pizza-packaging inventor with 43 patents https://patents.google.com/?inventor=John+Correll https://patents.google.com/?inventor=John+Correll with his most recent box patent at https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/94/5f/ba/91947c30df251f/US8025207.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/94/5f/ba/91947c3...
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  Maybe the weed induced ideas weren't worth the effort?
  - contingencies 4y ago
    Indeed. In all seriousness, in my reading so far the patents largely relate to vaguely inferred logistical and manufacturing process efficiencies which are difficult to fully grasp without a background in packaging design and manufacturing (I have a few years of experience but am no expert). Specific economic benefits are not discussed, probably a purposeful exclusion. Ballpark it seems the patents are talking about what will probably amount to roughly single digit percentage gains in material cost, manufacturing and shipping at most. Yet total box cost is such a small factor in each transaction that the gains are an invisible rounding error for all but the very largest operator (Dominos). From a design perspective, it seems that once you have flatpacked your boxes, if you require effectively untrained staff to perform assembly operations, the maximum complexity threshold for design (largely due to assembly process speed, training and error-potential) becomes the limiting factor.
- Oxidation 4y ago
  I do so love patent language: > However, it is essentially non-functional when incorporated within a box that has slanting, or obliquely-angled, walls. In this situation, the cup-holder strap assumes an abortive-looking non-level disposition within the corner section of the box....
karaterobot 4y ago
I wouldn't call it a tragedy. Delivery pizza is fine. The best part is they bring it right to my house. > We can construct better pizza boxes, and we already have. The real issue is cost. Okay, here's an idea they can just have for free: a restaurant buys 500 of the more expensive boxes, but continues to stock the cheaper ones. They give delivery orders the option to spend more money on the improved box, and tell them all the advantages. If they don't want to spend the extra money, they get the regular box. See how that goes.
- lukas099 4y ago
  Do any franchises encourage owners to do small-scale experiments like this and then copy the successful ones throughout the enterprise?
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Yes, especially with menus. The Big Mac was invented by a franchisee.
- Spivak 4y ago
  That's not a fair comparison because your observation will be heavily weighted to the status quo. Construct a parallel universe B where the norm is the more expensive boxes and introduce the cheaper ones. I put my lot in with the result that in both cases people don't switch. In universe A people will be averse to the increase in price. In universe B people will be averse to the decrease in quality. The only thing the experiment will show is humans weigh losses that come as a result of change heavier than gains.
mberning 4y ago
This completely misses the boat on pizza, which is funny coming from a self-described pizza aficionado. Nobody gives a shit if their papa johns or dominoes pizza would be imperceptibly better were it transported in a better vessel. That's not why you order pizza delivery. Not satisfied with ruining beer, bourbon, barbecue, and many other formerly enjoyable "every man" staples, now people have moved on to ruining pizza with a completely unnecessary level of snobbery.
- jahnu 4y ago
  > Not satisfied with ruining … Nothing has been ruined. Mediocre mass produced food and drink is still as widely available as it ever was. This sort of reverse snobbery puzzles me as much as regular snobbery does. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.
  - mberning 4y ago
    It absolutely has ruined the market for these things. 10 years ago decent bourbon was very accessible from a price and availability standpoint. Now people wait in line on Friday morning just for the chance to see what the distributor brought, and if there is anything decent, it is snatched up to hoard or sell on the secondary market. Of course, this has done nothing to the accessibility of the bottom shelf swill, but few people cared about 10 years ago and few people care about it now, so nothing has changed in that regard.
    - vidanay 4y ago
      And very very few people could tell the difference between Pappy and Buffalo Trace in a blind taste test
      - mberning 4y ago
        Very true. Around where I live the worst is Weller (all variations) and Blantons. Nice bottles, but nothing out of this world. You could easily find them on the shelf years ago. Nowadays it is unheard of to see them for sale.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
Is this content marketing for those ever so trendy at-home pizza ovens?
- HWR_14 4y ago
  According to the fine print, while the Atlantic has content marketing, it is marked by tags missing from this article. So almost certainly not.
- georgebcrawford 4y ago
  Is “ever so trendy” a pejorative? Because the Ooni he mentions is amazing. Three of my brothers (two of them chefs) have them and they make a huge difference. I’m sure there’s plenty sold to people who can’t make a decent pizza with or without them, but in the right hands they’re fantastic. While I can’t think of any right now, there are parallels in other markets - great tools that many have diminishing returns depending on the operator. Maybe espresso machines?
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Making pizza at home is like changing tyres or oil yourself - messy, expensive, takes ages and totally not worth it.
    - georgebcrawford 4y ago
      Disagree on both counts, but different strokes :-)
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Trendy? Nah, meeting pent up market demand of all the people who wanted a high-temp oven but not enough to build a janky one outside or spend thousands of dollars on a commercial one. Granted, I haven't sprung for one yet, but it's probably just a matter of time. The price and/or inconvenience were the reasons I was holding out before, and they've solved those. I can't believe how cheap the options are now. I'd probably spend more building one of those crappy landscaping-block DIY ones, now, while before that was by far the more budget-friendly option.
fishtoaster 4y ago
As with many simple ubiquitous consumer products from pizza boxes to mouse traps, the answer to the question "why hasn't someone invented a better one of these?" is "they have, but it it's more expensive." Many things in life could be better. The reason they're not is the same reason airplanes are uncomfortable and broadcast TV has obnoxious ads: the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version. The same is true for pizza boxes.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  This is also the same reason why so many newspapers and magazines are filled with fluffer BS articles such as this one instead of real investigative journalism: these types of articles are much cheaper and quicker to produce than investigative journalism. These empty complaint type articles are basically the website doing the minimum to fill space and get clicks.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version I really hate the framing that puts this on consumers as if they're just stingy. The reality is that we have an economy that strongly discourages most people from choosing any option besides the cheapest. When someone comes up with a less expensive way of doing something, the Fed interprets this as a problem and creates enough new currency to make sure the cost of living gets more expensive regardless. So rather than a choice between less expensive and more expensive, what consumers are actually confronted with is a choice between slightly more expensive and much more expensive.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    I made the same argument recently when someone repeated the line “air travel is bad because consumers will always choose the cheapest option.” I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior, except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding.
waltbosz 4y ago
Semi-related, this is an excellent song about the woman who invented the pizza table to prevent flimsy pizza box lids from falling into the cheese: https://soundcloud.com/otterintheflightdeck/carmela-vitale https://soundcloud.com/otterintheflightdeck/carmela-vitale originally mentioned on HN in 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13163970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13163970
sokoloff 4y ago
I bought a pizza delivery bag (holds two large pies in boxes) and that seems to help quite a bit to cover the pizza for the five minutes from the local pizza joint to the kitchen counter. I will sometimes have pizza delivered, but far prefer to go pick it up myself and make sure that I'm paid and ready to drop the pizzas in the bag the minute they're ready, so we can be eating well inside of 10 minutes from when the pizza came out of the oven. The article talks about "after 45 minutes, [the pizza has deteriorated]". Well, no shit...that's not the box's fault.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  >a pizza delivery bag (holds two large pies in boxes) It took me a few seconds, but i guess where you're from they (pizzas) are called 'pies'.
  - b112 4y ago
    They're called pies everywhere (pizza pies), but as with many things, the pie part is now unspoken. Such as gas for gasoline, and so on. EG, it's not an alias, but the dropped, rest of the name.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      "soda pop" is an interesting one. Some regions dropped the soda, others dropped the pop. Some dropped neither and still use "soda pop". And then some Neanderthal regions decided to drop both and use "Coke" as a generic term for carbonated soft drinks.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        “I’ll have an orange Coke.” is a valid order in those latter areas. It sounds crazy to me.
        doubled112 4y ago
        I would assume you meant something like "vanilla Coke" and wonder if you found an interesting combo on one of those fancy pick your flavour to add to your drink fountain dispensers.
technotarek 4y ago
A $40 pie?!?!
- jrockway 4y ago
  You can definitely spend $40 on pizza in NYC, once you add some toppings, delivery fees, and a tip. For me, ordering pizza is a "special treat" because it's so expensive.
  - dublinben 4y ago
    You could make pizza at home from scratch for only a few dollars, and it would be even fresher than anything delivered.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      Oh I do. The point of ordering food is that you have been working on something for 20 hours and do not feel like cooking.
    - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
      Nobody is surprised by the fact that cooking at home is cheaper than ordering food. I don't know why you think you need to point it out.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  At least one "Gourmet" pizza place I know of (Ann Arbor, MI) has a load of $46 to $54 pizzas on their menu. It's not bad pizza...but when I could have a 14oz. NY strip and drink at a very classy old local restaurant for less? "Sorry, not interested."
jakub_g 4y ago
Could someone summarize the article please? At 8 screens of text it seems a bit long but I'm curious what's so bad about it.
- mhb 4y ago
  Forget it. It's not even worth the tldr.
- georgebcrawford 4y ago
  Steam bad - softens crust, ruins cheese.
Zababa 4y ago
Focusing on the pizza box seems to be the wrong way of looking at the problem. Since we have insulated bags, pizzas don't spend too much time with the pizza box being the only thing standing between the pizza and the outside. What about making the insulated bag some kind of "keep warm oven" that can keep the pizza warm and control moisture? Make the pizza boxes that can still stack in that over but are way more open, use lots of fans to make the air circulate. This way the cost of the individual pizza box doesn't change, but you can still have a better product.
- cwillu 4y ago
  Literally the standard dominos arrangement for decades: vented boxes with insulated and heated bag that isn't sealed.
EarthLaunch 4y ago
I'm more worried about PFAS in pizza packaging [0]. It's used to make papers more water-resistant. Including some pizza boxes, or the paper they put between the pizza and the box. My favorite places use thin aluminum foil instead of oil/water-resistant PFAS infused papers. This is particularly important to me given the volume of pizza I consume... 0: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/pfas-everyday-products-toxics-guide https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/pfas-everyda...
pg_bot 4y ago
Why can't we just poke a few holes in the existing box to let the steam escape?
- cwillu 4y ago
  The dominos box has had vents in the box for decades, and the heat bags are both heated internally by an inductively recharged element, and not sealed so that steam can easily escape.
- brk 4y ago
  Some of them do have vents in the lid, which works for personal carry-home in your car. But for delivery, the driver usually has 3 or 4 pies at a minimum, in an insulated bag, so nowhere for the steam to go. The obvious solution is a pizza oven on a vehicle chassis, where the pie is cooked en-route and delivered to you literally as it comes out of the oven.
  - contingencies 4y ago
    Zume (died) tried that and Wonder (fleet of 500 vehicles) just ~failed ("Layoffs. Phasing out trucks. Searching for cost-efficient operating model."). Stellar Pizza (2-3 vehicles or so) is apparently still trying, their capex seems to be around ~$250K/unit.
- prepend 4y ago
  This is what my local pizza place does and the pizza arrives pretty good.
post_break 4y ago
I'm frustrated that Dominos proudly proclaims RECYCLE ME written on the box. Except for most people you cannot recycle cardboard like pizza boxes.
- sciclaw 4y ago
  I'm genuinely curious... If the pizza box is greasy, I tear off the bottom (some boxes are perforated to make this easy even) and toss that in the green bin, which is allowed where I live. I assume anything not greasy/dirty can be recycled. Am I doing it wrong?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Our municipal recycling is clear that pizza boxes with grease staining can still be recycled. Other places are equally clear that cardboard has to be free of grease, so you'll have to check with your local waste collection to be sure. https://www.cambridgema.gov/Departments/publicworks/getridofitright#!rc-cpage=253143 https://www.cambridgema.gov/Departments/publicworks/getridof...
  - TillE 4y ago
    As always, check with your municipality. But yes generally heavily stained paper should not be recycled, but the rest can.
- valarauko 4y ago
  > Except for most people you cannot recycle cardboard like pizza boxes. I thought grease stained paper/cardboard can't usually be recycled, but your comment makes it sound like cardboard itself cannot be recycled, which I don't think is the case.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  We just put the boxes in the compost bin in our area. Along with any remaining pizza bones.
hammock 4y ago
No mention of the PFC “forever chemicals” that pizza boxes are soaked in. Not great
rwha 4y ago
I enjoyed the linked 1949 article introducing pizza more: https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1949/10/184-4/132357979.pdf https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1949/10/184-4/132...
- kimnamjoon 4y ago
  lol yes "plural pizze but no one ever uses it"
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    For the original Italian/Neopolitan word pizza it may that be pizze is the plural, but for the English word "pizza" it's generally "pizzas": > Pizza f (genitive Pizza, plural Pizzen or Pizzas, diminutive Pizzchen n) * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pizza https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pizza > pizza (countable and uncountable, plural pizzas or (rare) pizze) * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pizza https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pizza
gumby 4y ago
Ultra trivial, but props to the author for understanding the world (emphasis mine): > Since the introduction of this corrugated vessel, humanity has landed on the moon, rolled out the internet, created cellphones, OK, technically the idea of the existence of an Internet dates to the mid-late 70s in a couple of papers from Cerf et al but the ARPANET was its natural progenitor, and Lick and Taylor's effort was contemporaneous with the corrugated pizza box. It always jars me when people write that the Internet (or worse, "the internet") was "invented" in the 90s, or simply assume that the www and the Internet are completely coextensional.
r0m4n0 4y ago
Personally having Zume pizza in MTV deliver our pizzas at our office on a regular basis, I can confirm that the futuristic pizza box they used did not help them make pizzas that taste good. Honestly their pizza was terrible... but I suppose sogginess was not on the list of adjectives I'd use to describe them so I guess we can't confirm or deny their box tech.
Mikeb85 4y ago
This journalist doesn't get it. Delivery pizza isn't competing against someone who can make pizza in a $1000 purpose-built home oven. Delivery pizza is cheap, tasty enough and convenient. For $20 or so you can have a pizza delivered with zero effort. Also, if you get a pan-style pizza, the degradation in quality is minimal.
neets 4y ago
I feel like this is a reaction trying to take advantage of the Andrew Tate / Greta Thunberg fight that happened on twitter.
gnicholas 4y ago
> Even Apple—that Apple—has patented its own round pizza box exclusively for its famished Cupertino office workers. This is what happens when you have an army of patent lawyers at your disposal.
trynewideas 4y ago
> And yet, the pizza box hasn’t changed much, if at all, since it was invented in 1966. Then, boxes were shallow cardboard squares with flaps to lock them into place. Today, boxes are shallow cardboard squares with flaps to lock them into place. You’ll see the same design both in dinky spots for drunken college students and in the country’s most sought-after Neopolitan joints. Since the introduction of this corrugated vessel, humanity has landed on the moon, rolled out the internet, created cellphones, and invented combination air fryer–instant pots. But none of that matters: Ye olde pizza box refuses to die. ... > We’ve gotten a couple of pizza-delivery innovations in the past few decades: the insulated heat bag—that ubiquitous velcroed duffel used to keep pies warm on their journey—those mini-plastic-table things, and … well, that is mostly it. No pizza box in widespread use today is significantly better at keeping a pizza fresh than the one Domino’s invented all those years ago. ... > Your life is different from your grandparents’, but this is quite literally your grandparents’ pizza box—and also Elon Musk’s pizza box, and Joe Biden’s, and Oprah Winfrey’s. The Atlantic, 11 years ago: https://archive.ph/K1uJq https://archive.ph/K1uJq > But that's not to say that there hasn't been any innovation in the pizza box space. FAR FROM IT! > Inside most pizza boxes now, right in the center of the container, you'll find a plastic tripod often shaped like a mid-century modern table. It holds up the center of the pizza box to avoid cardboard smashing down on the cheese on the top of the pizza. ... > It was one of a number of tweaks to the pizza box (venting configurations, say) that have improved upon the old designs. Now, some boxes designed for easier recycling, or come with holders for dipping sauces, or transform into plates. Like everything else, pizza boxes have gone niche and they can be made to order for very specific food transport situations. ... > The pizza sleeve designs around that constraint. Some designer (who probably worked for Domino's) said, "Let's separate out the heat retaining and moisture battling components of the box." Vent to your heart's content to control moisture, but keep the pizza in an insulated sleeve, so that the heat stays in. The pizza and the box stay the same, but the system of delivery changes. That's brilliant.
paulpauper 4y ago
Sorta off topics but it's funny or amusing how people continue to eat highly fattening food like pizza despite the consequences of obesity being well publicized. What can explain this.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  It tastes good, and it won't kill you in moderation.
the_third_wave 4y ago
They may not have been the fastest machines but they were not that bad, really. What? This is about actual pizza boxes? On HN I'd have expected it to be about pizza boxen [1] but clearly I'm out of touch. [1] https://blog.pizzabox.computer/pizzaboxes/sparcstation/ https://blog.pizzabox.computer/pizzaboxes/sparcstation/
aaron695 4y ago
[dead]
fortran77 4y ago
Original title was "You Don't Know How Bad The Pizza Box Is."

78 points by kimnamjoon 4y ago

http://archive.today/TlJGc http://archive.today/TlJGc

After smoking a lot of weed, I have come up with a lot of ideas for a better box,” said Bellucci Poor journalism to include this quote without a summary of the ideas engendered. John Correll, a pizza-packaging inventor with 43 patents https://patents.google.com/?inventor=John+Correll https://patents.google.com/?inventor=John+Correll with his most recent box patent at https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/94/5f/ba/91947c30df251f/US8025207.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/94/5f/ba/91947c3...

readthenotes1 4y ago
Maybe the weed induced ideas weren't worth the effort?
- contingencies 4y ago
  Indeed. In all seriousness, in my reading so far the patents largely relate to vaguely inferred logistical and manufacturing process efficiencies which are difficult to fully grasp without a background in packaging design and manufacturing (I have a few years of experience but am no expert). Specific economic benefits are not discussed, probably a purposeful exclusion. Ballpark it seems the patents are talking about what will probably amount to roughly single digit percentage gains in material cost, manufacturing and shipping at most. Yet total box cost is such a small factor in each transaction that the gains are an invisible rounding error for all but the very largest operator (Dominos). From a design perspective, it seems that once you have flatpacked your boxes, if you require effectively untrained staff to perform assembly operations, the maximum complexity threshold for design (largely due to assembly process speed, training and error-potential) becomes the limiting factor.
Oxidation 4y ago
I do so love patent language: > However, it is essentially non-functional when incorporated within a box that has slanting, or obliquely-angled, walls. In this situation, the cup-holder strap assumes an abortive-looking non-level disposition within the corner section of the box....

karaterobot 4y ago

I wouldn't call it a tragedy. Delivery pizza is fine. The best part is they bring it right to my house. > We can construct better pizza boxes, and we already have. The real issue is cost. Okay, here's an idea they can just have for free: a restaurant buys 500 of the more expensive boxes, but continues to stock the cheaper ones. They give delivery orders the option to spend more money on the improved box, and tell them all the advantages. If they don't want to spend the extra money, they get the regular box. See how that goes.

lukas099 4y ago
Do any franchises encourage owners to do small-scale experiments like this and then copy the successful ones throughout the enterprise?
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Yes, especially with menus. The Big Mac was invented by a franchisee.
Spivak 4y ago
That's not a fair comparison because your observation will be heavily weighted to the status quo. Construct a parallel universe B where the norm is the more expensive boxes and introduce the cheaper ones. I put my lot in with the result that in both cases people don't switch. In universe A people will be averse to the increase in price. In universe B people will be averse to the decrease in quality. The only thing the experiment will show is humans weigh losses that come as a result of change heavier than gains.

mberning 4y ago

This completely misses the boat on pizza, which is funny coming from a self-described pizza aficionado. Nobody gives a shit if their papa johns or dominoes pizza would be imperceptibly better were it transported in a better vessel. That's not why you order pizza delivery. Not satisfied with ruining beer, bourbon, barbecue, and many other formerly enjoyable "every man" staples, now people have moved on to ruining pizza with a completely unnecessary level of snobbery.

jahnu 4y ago
> Not satisfied with ruining … Nothing has been ruined. Mediocre mass produced food and drink is still as widely available as it ever was. This sort of reverse snobbery puzzles me as much as regular snobbery does. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.
- mberning 4y ago
  It absolutely has ruined the market for these things. 10 years ago decent bourbon was very accessible from a price and availability standpoint. Now people wait in line on Friday morning just for the chance to see what the distributor brought, and if there is anything decent, it is snatched up to hoard or sell on the secondary market. Of course, this has done nothing to the accessibility of the bottom shelf swill, but few people cared about 10 years ago and few people care about it now, so nothing has changed in that regard.
  - vidanay 4y ago
    And very very few people could tell the difference between Pappy and Buffalo Trace in a blind taste test
    - mberning 4y ago
      Very true. Around where I live the worst is Weller (all variations) and Blantons. Nice bottles, but nothing out of this world. You could easily find them on the shelf years ago. Nowadays it is unheard of to see them for sale.

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

Is this content marketing for those ever so trendy at-home pizza ovens?

HWR_14 4y ago
According to the fine print, while the Atlantic has content marketing, it is marked by tags missing from this article. So almost certainly not.
georgebcrawford 4y ago
Is “ever so trendy” a pejorative? Because the Ooni he mentions is amazing. Three of my brothers (two of them chefs) have them and they make a huge difference. I’m sure there’s plenty sold to people who can’t make a decent pizza with or without them, but in the right hands they’re fantastic. While I can’t think of any right now, there are parallels in other markets - great tools that many have diminishing returns depending on the operator. Maybe espresso machines?
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Making pizza at home is like changing tyres or oil yourself - messy, expensive, takes ages and totally not worth it.
  - georgebcrawford 4y ago
    Disagree on both counts, but different strokes :-)
yamtaddle 4y ago
Trendy? Nah, meeting pent up market demand of all the people who wanted a high-temp oven but not enough to build a janky one outside or spend thousands of dollars on a commercial one. Granted, I haven't sprung for one yet, but it's probably just a matter of time. The price and/or inconvenience were the reasons I was holding out before, and they've solved those. I can't believe how cheap the options are now. I'd probably spend more building one of those crappy landscaping-block DIY ones, now, while before that was by far the more budget-friendly option.

fishtoaster 4y ago

As with many simple ubiquitous consumer products from pizza boxes to mouse traps, the answer to the question "why hasn't someone invented a better one of these?" is "they have, but it it's more expensive." Many things in life could be better. The reason they're not is the same reason airplanes are uncomfortable and broadcast TV has obnoxious ads: the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version. The same is true for pizza boxes.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
This is also the same reason why so many newspapers and magazines are filled with fluffer BS articles such as this one instead of real investigative journalism: these types of articles are much cheaper and quicker to produce than investigative journalism. These empty complaint type articles are basically the website doing the minimum to fill space and get clicks.
mindslight 4y ago
> the revealed preferences of consumers for those things is the cheaper version, not the better version I really hate the framing that puts this on consumers as if they're just stingy. The reality is that we have an economy that strongly discourages most people from choosing any option besides the cheapest. When someone comes up with a less expensive way of doing something, the Fed interprets this as a problem and creates enough new currency to make sure the cost of living gets more expensive regardless. So rather than a choice between less expensive and more expensive, what consumers are actually confronted with is a choice between slightly more expensive and much more expensive.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  I made the same argument recently when someone repeated the line “air travel is bad because consumers will always choose the cheapest option.” I’m pretty skeptical that almost any “race to the bottom” scenarios are easily attributed to consumer behavior, except perhaps in cases of commoditization where consumers reject attempts to differentiate products based on things like branding.

waltbosz 4y ago

Semi-related, this is an excellent song about the woman who invented the pizza table to prevent flimsy pizza box lids from falling into the cheese: https://soundcloud.com/otterintheflightdeck/carmela-vitale https://soundcloud.com/otterintheflightdeck/carmela-vitale originally mentioned on HN in 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13163970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13163970

sokoloff 4y ago

I bought a pizza delivery bag (holds two large pies in boxes) and that seems to help quite a bit to cover the pizza for the five minutes from the local pizza joint to the kitchen counter. I will sometimes have pizza delivered, but far prefer to go pick it up myself and make sure that I'm paid and ready to drop the pizzas in the bag the minute they're ready, so we can be eating well inside of 10 minutes from when the pizza came out of the oven. The article talks about "after 45 minutes, [the pizza has deteriorated]". Well, no shit...that's not the box's fault.

InCityDreams 4y ago
>a pizza delivery bag (holds two large pies in boxes) It took me a few seconds, but i guess where you're from they (pizzas) are called 'pies'.
- b112 4y ago
  They're called pies everywhere (pizza pies), but as with many things, the pie part is now unspoken. Such as gas for gasoline, and so on. EG, it's not an alias, but the dropped, rest of the name.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    "soda pop" is an interesting one. Some regions dropped the soda, others dropped the pop. Some dropped neither and still use "soda pop". And then some Neanderthal regions decided to drop both and use "Coke" as a generic term for carbonated soft drinks.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      “I’ll have an orange Coke.” is a valid order in those latter areas. It sounds crazy to me.
      - doubled112 4y ago
        I would assume you meant something like "vanilla Coke" and wonder if you found an interesting combo on one of those fancy pick your flavour to add to your drink fountain dispensers.

technotarek 4y ago

A $40 pie?!?!

jrockway 4y ago
You can definitely spend $40 on pizza in NYC, once you add some toppings, delivery fees, and a tip. For me, ordering pizza is a "special treat" because it's so expensive.
- dublinben 4y ago
  You could make pizza at home from scratch for only a few dollars, and it would be even fresher than anything delivered.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    Oh I do. The point of ordering food is that you have been working on something for 20 hours and do not feel like cooking.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Nobody is surprised by the fact that cooking at home is cheaper than ordering food. I don't know why you think you need to point it out.
bell-cot 4y ago
At least one "Gourmet" pizza place I know of (Ann Arbor, MI) has a load of $46 to $54 pizzas on their menu. It's not bad pizza...but when I could have a 14oz. NY strip and drink at a very classy old local restaurant for less? "Sorry, not interested."

jakub_g 4y ago

Could someone summarize the article please? At 8 screens of text it seems a bit long but I'm curious what's so bad about it.

mhb 4y ago
Forget it. It's not even worth the tldr.
georgebcrawford 4y ago
Steam bad - softens crust, ruins cheese.

Zababa 4y ago

Focusing on the pizza box seems to be the wrong way of looking at the problem. Since we have insulated bags, pizzas don't spend too much time with the pizza box being the only thing standing between the pizza and the outside. What about making the insulated bag some kind of "keep warm oven" that can keep the pizza warm and control moisture? Make the pizza boxes that can still stack in that over but are way more open, use lots of fans to make the air circulate. This way the cost of the individual pizza box doesn't change, but you can still have a better product.

cwillu 4y ago
Literally the standard dominos arrangement for decades: vented boxes with insulated and heated bag that isn't sealed.

EarthLaunch 4y ago

I'm more worried about PFAS in pizza packaging [0]. It's used to make papers more water-resistant. Including some pizza boxes, or the paper they put between the pizza and the box. My favorite places use thin aluminum foil instead of oil/water-resistant PFAS infused papers. This is particularly important to me given the volume of pizza I consume... 0: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/pfas-everyday-products-toxics-guide https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/23/pfas-everyda...

pg_bot 4y ago

Why can't we just poke a few holes in the existing box to let the steam escape?

cwillu 4y ago
The dominos box has had vents in the box for decades, and the heat bags are both heated internally by an inductively recharged element, and not sealed so that steam can easily escape.
brk 4y ago
Some of them do have vents in the lid, which works for personal carry-home in your car. But for delivery, the driver usually has 3 or 4 pies at a minimum, in an insulated bag, so nowhere for the steam to go. The obvious solution is a pizza oven on a vehicle chassis, where the pie is cooked en-route and delivered to you literally as it comes out of the oven.
- contingencies 4y ago
  Zume (died) tried that and Wonder (fleet of 500 vehicles) just ~failed ("Layoffs. Phasing out trucks. Searching for cost-efficient operating model."). Stellar Pizza (2-3 vehicles or so) is apparently still trying, their capex seems to be around ~$250K/unit.
prepend 4y ago
This is what my local pizza place does and the pizza arrives pretty good.

post_break 4y ago

I'm frustrated that Dominos proudly proclaims RECYCLE ME written on the box. Except for most people you cannot recycle cardboard like pizza boxes.

sciclaw 4y ago
I'm genuinely curious... If the pizza box is greasy, I tear off the bottom (some boxes are perforated to make this easy even) and toss that in the green bin, which is allowed where I live. I assume anything not greasy/dirty can be recycled. Am I doing it wrong?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Our municipal recycling is clear that pizza boxes with grease staining can still be recycled. Other places are equally clear that cardboard has to be free of grease, so you'll have to check with your local waste collection to be sure. https://www.cambridgema.gov/Departments/publicworks/getridofitright#!rc-cpage=253143 https://www.cambridgema.gov/Departments/publicworks/getridof...
- TillE 4y ago
  As always, check with your municipality. But yes generally heavily stained paper should not be recycled, but the rest can.
valarauko 4y ago
> Except for most people you cannot recycle cardboard like pizza boxes. I thought grease stained paper/cardboard can't usually be recycled, but your comment makes it sound like cardboard itself cannot be recycled, which I don't think is the case.
Tagbert 4y ago
We just put the boxes in the compost bin in our area. Along with any remaining pizza bones.

hammock 4y ago

No mention of the PFC “forever chemicals” that pizza boxes are soaked in. Not great

rwha 4y ago

I enjoyed the linked 1949 article introducing pizza more: https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1949/10/184-4/132357979.pdf https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1949/10/184-4/132...

kimnamjoon 4y ago
lol yes "plural pizze but no one ever uses it"
- throw0101c 4y ago
  For the original Italian/Neopolitan word pizza it may that be pizze is the plural, but for the English word "pizza" it's generally "pizzas": > Pizza f (genitive Pizza, plural Pizzen or Pizzas, diminutive Pizzchen n) * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pizza https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pizza > pizza (countable and uncountable, plural pizzas or (rare) pizze) * https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pizza https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pizza

gumby 4y ago

Ultra trivial, but props to the author for understanding the world (emphasis mine): > Since the introduction of this corrugated vessel, humanity has landed on the moon, rolled out the internet, created cellphones, OK, technically the idea of the existence of an Internet dates to the mid-late 70s in a couple of papers from Cerf et al but the ARPANET was its natural progenitor, and Lick and Taylor's effort was contemporaneous with the corrugated pizza box. It always jars me when people write that the Internet (or worse, "the internet") was "invented" in the 90s, or simply assume that the www and the Internet are completely coextensional.

r0m4n0 4y ago

Personally having Zume pizza in MTV deliver our pizzas at our office on a regular basis, I can confirm that the futuristic pizza box they used did not help them make pizzas that taste good. Honestly their pizza was terrible... but I suppose sogginess was not on the list of adjectives I'd use to describe them so I guess we can't confirm or deny their box tech.

Mikeb85 4y ago

This journalist doesn't get it. Delivery pizza isn't competing against someone who can make pizza in a $1000 purpose-built home oven. Delivery pizza is cheap, tasty enough and convenient. For $20 or so you can have a pizza delivered with zero effort. Also, if you get a pan-style pizza, the degradation in quality is minimal.

neets 4y ago

I feel like this is a reaction trying to take advantage of the Andrew Tate / Greta Thunberg fight that happened on twitter.

gnicholas 4y ago

> Even Apple—that Apple—has patented its own round pizza box exclusively for its famished Cupertino office workers. This is what happens when you have an army of patent lawyers at your disposal.

trynewideas 4y ago

> And yet, the pizza box hasn’t changed much, if at all, since it was invented in 1966. Then, boxes were shallow cardboard squares with flaps to lock them into place. Today, boxes are shallow cardboard squares with flaps to lock them into place. You’ll see the same design both in dinky spots for drunken college students and in the country’s most sought-after Neopolitan joints. Since the introduction of this corrugated vessel, humanity has landed on the moon, rolled out the internet, created cellphones, and invented combination air fryer–instant pots. But none of that matters: Ye olde pizza box refuses to die. ... > We’ve gotten a couple of pizza-delivery innovations in the past few decades: the insulated heat bag—that ubiquitous velcroed duffel used to keep pies warm on their journey—those mini-plastic-table things, and … well, that is mostly it. No pizza box in widespread use today is significantly better at keeping a pizza fresh than the one Domino’s invented all those years ago. ... > Your life is different from your grandparents’, but this is quite literally your grandparents’ pizza box—and also Elon Musk’s pizza box, and Joe Biden’s, and Oprah Winfrey’s. The Atlantic, 11 years ago: https://archive.ph/K1uJq https://archive.ph/K1uJq > But that's not to say that there hasn't been any innovation in the pizza box space. FAR FROM IT! > Inside most pizza boxes now, right in the center of the container, you'll find a plastic tripod often shaped like a mid-century modern table. It holds up the center of the pizza box to avoid cardboard smashing down on the cheese on the top of the pizza. ... > It was one of a number of tweaks to the pizza box (venting configurations, say) that have improved upon the old designs. Now, some boxes designed for easier recycling, or come with holders for dipping sauces, or transform into plates. Like everything else, pizza boxes have gone niche and they can be made to order for very specific food transport situations. ... > The pizza sleeve designs around that constraint. Some designer (who probably worked for Domino's) said, "Let's separate out the heat retaining and moisture battling components of the box." Vent to your heart's content to control moisture, but keep the pizza in an insulated sleeve, so that the heat stays in. The pizza and the box stay the same, but the system of delivery changes. That's brilliant.

paulpauper 4y ago

Sorta off topics but it's funny or amusing how people continue to eat highly fattening food like pizza despite the consequences of obesity being well publicized. What can explain this.

nibbleshifter 4y ago
It tastes good, and it won't kill you in moderation.

the_third_wave 4y ago

They may not have been the fastest machines but they were not that bad, really. What? This is about actual pizza boxes? On HN I'd have expected it to be about pizza boxen [1] but clearly I'm out of touch. [1] https://blog.pizzabox.computer/pizzaboxes/sparcstation/ https://blog.pizzabox.computer/pizzaboxes/sparcstation/

aaron695 4y ago

[dead]

fortran77 4y ago

Original title was "You Don't Know How Bad The Pizza Box Is."