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Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electr

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are supposed to be cables sheathed in green. The electrician also had to disconnect all of the wires from the circuit breaker in order to replace a plastic joint and replace it with a galvanized one. I understand that these regulations exist in the name of safety, just be aware that any electrical updates to your home will likely involve a lot more work than you initially think. Depending on what you are getting done, the inspector may need to recheck your entire home. And, you're probably going to scoff at a good number of the required changes. Context Edit: I'm located in Texas, and I ultimately had to have the electrical panel replaced entirely because there was a safety recall associated with it. Even after the replacement was complete the electrician had to come back and redo the wiring connections because the inspector said the PVC joint at the top of the box had to be metal instead. When I first saw the estimate I made sure to shop around and to get multiple quotes in order to make sure I wasn't being taken advantage of. Thankfully, there were a few things I was able to remain grandfathered in for. Update: I now know that "fuse box" is not a synonym for "circuit breaker".

pyb 4y ago
In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your home every time the electrical code gets a change. However, many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary work.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  I don't think it's unreasonable to update to code when other changes are made.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  You are normally required to update anything an electrician touches or could impact. So if you are having a new socket added in your kitchen, then all the other sockets in the kitchen on the same circuit will need updating, and the breaker for the kitchen. But you probably won't have to have your living room rewired.
  - Dma54rhs 4y ago
    It seems US is way more overregulated when it comes to electricity or building in general.
    - tstrimple 4y ago
      And every time I see a video online of a dance floor or stadium collapsing or people getting electrocuted by accidentally touching ungrounded electrical devices I'm reminded why. That's not to say those things don't happen here, just at a lower frequency. Safety standards are written in blood after all.
      - efitz 4y ago
        Structure collapses are extremely rare, which is why they are always news. I am not unhappy with the state of regulation when it comes to building structures that have the potential to kill hundreds or thousands of people at a time. However I think many locations in the US way overdo regulation when it comes to residential building codes. When you buy a house, you get a professional inspection. If it comes up dangerous, then you are armed with the knowledge to make a risk decision that’s right for you. I don’t need spacecraft level engineering on my car; similarly i don’t need skyscraper level engineering on my house.
        Gigachad 4y ago
        Presumably you pull out a report and do a rundown of all the not to spec electrical work before any guests enter the house? Or are you making the safety call for them too?
        shard 4y ago
        And vice versa, do you ask any hosts whose house you are about to enter whether they have any out-of-spec electrical work before entering the house?
    - efitz 4y ago
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Doing an addition? Well, now you need to ensure the entire house has fire/C02 detectors wired together with it.
  - Filligree 4y ago
    > Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Sorry, is there a requirement that every single wall should have a socket? ...that's what extension cords are for.
    - dmm 4y ago
      > that's what extension cords are for. That's exactly why every wall is required to have an outlet now, to reduce the use of extension cords.
    - dboreham 4y ago
      Yes, there are also requirements for example that kitchens have an outlet every N feet (I forget the exact number) in order that the short cords supplied on toasters, kettles etc can reach every part of the counter surface without an extension.
    - _whiteCaps_ 4y ago
      Extension cords are a bad idea. Especially since you can buy 10A rated cords that can be plugged into 15A sockets. https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-ft-16-3-Green-Outdoor-Extension-Cord-1-Pack-SJTW16355GN/320258189 https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-ft-16-3-Green-Outdoor-Ext... There's a really good explanation in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ
      - Filligree 4y ago
        Then the fuse would blow, right?
- pavon 4y ago
  The general rule in most places is that any circuits that aren't modified as part of the new work don't need to be brought up to modern code. The main service panel is the main thing that ends up needing to be upgraded incidentally, since all circuits depend on it, and that can easily be more expensive than the actual work being done. But that only needs to be done once, and many old houses will want it upgraded anyway to allow for more circuits to be added than the box was originally designed to accommodate. However, I think the 10 years is a bit pessimistic. At least in the US, the code hasn't changed that much in the last 20-30 years, and many of the changes are at the periphery where they are easy to modify like GFCIs, and tamper resistant outlets, etc, so I wouldn't be afraid of making modifications to existing circuits for houses in that range. Older than that you start running into (AA-1350) aluminum wiring (35 years or older) or two-conductor wiring (65 years or older), and you'll want to take the policy of not touching those old circuits unless you plan on completely replacing them.
nsporillo 4y ago
When I got the exterior siding of my home replaced, we also wanted to have our electrical meter box replaced because it was falling off the side of the house. The work we originally thought was needed was just a new meter box. Turned out we needed a new wire run from the meter all the way to our water line, a new pipe for the underground wiring, two additional grounding wires. The utility said it wasnt their problem as the meter itself is their property but the housing, the way it attaches to the house, and the connection to the transformer was our responsibility to pay for. Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. Edit: Because this work was to be done in tandem with the siding replacement to avoid expensive rework, we didn't have much of an option in shopping around as most electricians did not want to deal with coordination with the utility around disconnect and inspection.
- quickthrowman 4y ago
  > Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. If it’s so simple, why didn’t you do it and save $2,000? Part of that price is uncertainty due to scheduling/coordinating with the siding contractor and utility. Everything after the meter, including grounding conductors, are premises wiring aka your responsibility. Having your electrical service properly grounded sure beats being electrocuted. I manage electricians, and my jobs get charged $110/hr for a journeyman in a service van.
  - brodouevencode 4y ago
    It's not simple, and most electricians hate doing it unless it's a fresh install because power companies can be a pain to deal with sometimes.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - ilyt 4y ago
    Needing the knowledge to do the "right" steps doesn't mean the steps stop being simple, it just means it's "simple but easy to fuck up".
newZWhoDis 4y ago
Required to sheath ground in green? What on earth for? That makes ground less effective since you want any incidental contact with ground to ground the object touching it.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  It was probably sheathed in black or some other color originally.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Electrical specs are very strict. They aren't just about electrical safety directly, but also about not potentially confusing people in the future. If the cable was black, then someone may not have known that it was an earth cable, and might have cut it, which would leave your electrical installation unsafe. Thats the reasoning why using the wrong color for a wire can make it illegal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - vel0city 4y ago
    That's the thing though: the best choice for a ground wire is no color at all, just the raw copper wire.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  The part of the wire that is connected to the grounding object has no sheathing, but the length of the cable is insulated. The old cable was the same way. The coating was black and looked identical to the other wires running through the wall. I assume the justification for the code is that it makes the ground wire visually distinct.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  Because without a common language for what color wires carry load a simple oversight can be fatal.
planetafro 4y ago
I feel like some of this should be "grand-fathered" in. Perhaps you were a victim of an upsell. Any electricians that can verify? For example, I needed a new fence. I got a few quotes and most were DRASTICALLY high priced as they wanted to move my fence to comply with current code. An older, more experienced worker had no problems with permits and said I was grand-fathered in because it was already existing. I even self-checked with the city. He was right.
- brodouevencode 4y ago
  I think there's some of this in there too. Out-of-code is grandfathered in unless you're touching that part of the system in most places.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    And even if you're touching that part of the system, you can usually replace like-for-like without bringing it all up to current code, even if the current condition is non-compliant, you can generally put it back to the same level of non-compliance, even if it's with entirely new parts. (I'm not arguing that that's a good idea to elect as a property owner, but rather that NEC does not require "you touch it, you have to fully modernize it". This will likely invite an argument with the AHJ's inspector, if the work is subject to inspection.)
- intrasight 4y ago
  Many things are grandfathered. But not all. Sometimes it'll be at home owners discretion. For example, I have a Pushmatic panel. The thing sucks. So even if it's grandfathered when I have other work done, I'm still getting rid of it ASAP.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  I made sure to shop around and even asked my neighbors who had the same houseplan about the electrical work they had to get done in the past. The previous owners had neglected to replace some components that had been recalled decades ago, so that obligation ultimately fell to me. I did manage to get a few things grandfathered in, like being able to keep a three pronged outlet for the dryer. But ultimately I made peace with the fact that the house's electrical system was in a neglected state and the fixes simply had to be made.
brodouevencode 4y ago
Where do you live? In a lot of municipalities any out-of-code work can remain unless they are actively touching that part of the system. For instance, if you had ungrounded outlets in your house, but were just getting a drop for a ceiling fan you wouldn't have to install grounds as part of that work. So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway.
- zardo 4y ago
  > So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway. Or they conveniently misunderstood the regulatory requirements.
  - brodouevencode 4y ago
    Just trying to give benefit of the doubt. I suspect this was a tack-on.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- ilyt 4y ago
  If you're mounting EV charger, or heat pump you'd me most likely running separate circuit off main box for them. Which means you have to fix the main box. Which is most expensive part to fix.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Most of the time the main box is good enough. Fuses are still legal. There are a few boxes that are safety hazards, but if you have one you should replace it even if not planning any other work (some circuit breakers don't trip when overloaded!).
    - kjax 4y ago
      Hello, Federal Pioneer 15A Stab-Lok blue breakers (old style, without the holes) here. I can personally confirm their potential for not tripping when overloaded, along with the smouldering outcome...
londons_explore 4y ago
> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standards. Suddenly the $20+10 minute job has turned into a $15k and 3 weeks complete rewire. So most people don't have a key safety device added. And still every year people die from not having one.
- anikom15 4y ago
  Which country? In the U.S., GFCIs only need to be installed in specific locations, which is good. I do not want my refrigerator or computer on a GFCI. In the U.K., you just can’t have plugs in bathrooms (aside from the shaver plug), which is probably more sensible.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    They only need to be installed in specific places... But they ought to be installed for the whole house. You do want your refrigerator on one. What when your mom is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of leftovers, knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC lamp power supply kills her though the metal saucepan? What when a baby puts a fork into an electrical outlet in the living room? What when floodwater comes in and kills everyone on the ground floor of your house while you are frantically wading in the water trying to move furniture upstairs? There are plenty of times you want a whole house GFCI.
    - anikom15 4y ago
      My mom doesn’t live with me (the bulb inside the fridge is LED anyway), I don’t have a baby (babies don’t carry metal forks), and I live on the second floor (but the power would be out long before the first floor floods). I don’t want whole house GFCI.
repiret 4y ago
You don't say where you are, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. Where I am, in Oregon, USA: * I own a house that was built in the early 20th century. As was typical of the time, the house has a small number of fused circuits, which do not have a ground wire, and where the wire gauge is thinner than would be required for a modern circuit of the same capacity. Just the same, it's perfectly legal to: * Add new outlets to existing circuits without changing the fuse to match the wire gauge of the circuit or adding a ground wire. It has to either be a NEMA 1-15R receptacle (no ground plug) or a GFCI receptacle with a label that says there's no equipment ground. * Replace the fuse boxes with modern breaker boxes without re-wiring the house to have grounded outlets. The only limitation is that the new breakers would have to be smaller than the existing fuses so that the wire gauge meets current code for the breaker size. * I have a 1998 house which has several pairs of circus on opposite phases which share a neutral wire. This is legal still, but requires that the circuits are connected to dual-throw breakers, so that it's not possible to have one circuit hot with the other dead. But this house doesn't use dual-throw breakers like it should. As far as I know, that wasn't even code when the house was built. But electricians can still add new circuits without fixing that. * Some years ago I was remodeling a 1956 house. Initially, the inspector asserted that we would need to replace a staircase whose width and pitch did not meet current code. But he was mistaken. Even though we replaced the stair treads, because we didn't make any changes to the structure of the staircase, the head county building inspector agreed that we didn't need to bring it to current code.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Multi-wire branch circuits (your second point) will likely always be legal, because they're fundamentally safe from an engineering point of view. Requiring common-disconnect (but not common-trip) breakers I think was a requirement since before 1998, but because it only needs common-disconnect, a listed handle-tie between the two breakers will suffice. (In other words, this should be a quite inexpensive situation to remedy. $8 for 3 of them at Home Depot for one particular common panel: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-Handle-Tie-for-Single-Pole-Breaker-QO1HTCP/100165878 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-Hand...)
carcostthrow 4y ago
Oh it gets even funnier then that. So I took quick look into what it would actually take to upgrade the main circuit breaker in the house assuming a 100A to 200A upgrade is needed to accommodate both an EV and a heat pump. I thought it was $5000 or so. As it turns out, $5000 is for pole mounted service. It's range is actually around $15,000 to $25,000 for underground service, as it requires digging the line from the street to the house. Unknown how much cost there if too many houses here need to upgrade as well which would necessitate upgrading transformers feeding this area (most houses here are 100A AFAIK).
- brianwawok 4y ago
  EV or not EV, I really think you want 200A service? It has been the standard for quite a few years, and I cannot imagine only having 100A service in a proper house (would be fine for an apartment or whatnot). Now I am higher electric usage than most, but I hit over 100A several times a day (but have never hit 200A and flipped my breaker). The actually switching out your circuit breaker from 100A to 200A is cheap (2-3k?). Almost all of the cost is for the utility to run you a bigger line, and they can pretty much charge you anything they want (what is your alternative if you don't like the price?)
  - zbrozek 4y ago
    Electrical code has completely unreasonable and unrealistic demand factors associated with appliances. Basically "1" for just about everything, as well as 3 watts per square foot of floor area. If you sum all of these things up, I'm well above the 200 amp service delivered to my home. Reality? I had a peak draw of 23 amps from the grid in the last year. Luckily the NEC has an escape valve for folks who can prove that.
    - brianwawok 4y ago
      Right, don't go off code for having to do a big upgrade like this. I legit hit 100A several times a month. Have hit over 150A. Easy way for me to draw 100A at once: 40A: EV charging 32A: Electric Oven warming up at max 24A: Electric Dryer 40A: HotTub jets on 40A: AC ON Max Unlikely all of those are on full max, but it's pretty easy to imagine getting past 100A before we even touch things like lights and computers. EV + Dryer + Hot Tub pretty much pull max for the entire run, the other stuff is more likely to cycle up and down.
jonesdc 4y ago
How did you go about searching for an electrician who you trusted? Any particular sources or just calling locally? I’m looking to get some new cabling placed since I can’t navigate within the walls
DannyBee 4y ago
This depends entirely on their code cycle. Those that keep up actually don't have much issue as it's gradual. Current breakdown is: 25 states - 2020+ NEC 17 states - 2017 NEC 2 states - 2014 NEC 2 states - 2008 NEC 8 states - Very local Some of them take 5+ years to update the NEC. Virginia adopted the 2017 NEC in late 2021. When that happens, upgrades can be costly. Though most major changes around AFCI/GFCI usage, pipe types, etc to NEC happened in the 2014/2017 code cycle. So there were definitely some code cycles that were "extra bad" in this sense.
Animats 4y ago
> Even after the replacement was complete the electrician had to come back and redo the wiring connections because the inspector said the PVC joint at the top of the box had to be metal instead. Right. There must be a reliable metallic path to ground. This is a big problem with PVC pipe retrofits. In older houses, plumbing and conduit are metal and good grounds, and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted. Once PVC pipe came in, you have to assume that no pipe is grounded, and you need extra ground wires and stakes. This can happen due to a plumbing repair. Otherwise, a short to "ground" can energize the structure's entire water system. In the original article, if your house doesn't have three-prong outlets, it's time for an full upgrade. You're at least half a century behind. As for training new electricians, "In the past, Reyes recruited workers out of high school and trained them. But he’s reluctant to do it again. It costs his technicians time, it costs him money, and there’s no guarantee that the people he invests in will stick around because the job market is so competitive." Well, welcome to the free market. Maybe you have to pay more. There are International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers apprenticeship programs not mentioned in the article. Here's Local 6, San Francisco.[1] They require high school graduation, a grade of C or better in algebra and trigonometry, and drug testing to become an apprentice. The apprenticeship is three years. "Grid Alternatives partners with local organizations, like Homeboy Industries, a gang-intervention program, to introduce former inmates as well as other underrepresented people, to careers in solar. Those admitted to Grid’s training receive “wraparound supportive services” that address barriers they might have to participating, such as helping them get driver’s licenses, open bank accounts, or, for those formerly incarcerated, find attorneys." That may be starting too far down the food chain. "But this past year, Laney’s program almost fell apart after one of its teachers, Forough Hashemi, announced she would be retiring at the end of the spring 2022 semester. Hashemi had been teaching six classes each semester, essentially holding the program together". Laney College seems rather disorganized. Their web site says "Fall Classes Start August 24, 2020 – Enroll Now!". If their idea of recruiting is "we sent some letters and nobody responded", that's the college's problem. [1] https://ibew6.org/ https://ibew6.org/
- repiret 4y ago
  > ... and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted Do you have a citation for this? I was under the impression that using plumbing as equipment ground was never allowed, but that conductive plumbing has required to be bonded to ground for some time. I was further under the impression that by code, plumbing repairs couldn't leave behind unbonded sections of conductive plumbing.
jacquesm 4y ago
> shop around and to get multiple quotes in order to make sure I wasn't being taken advantage of But you were taken advantage of. It's just that with the level of collusion in North America regarding electrical work and plumbing you are not going to be able to avoid it. I've seen the weirdest requirements which only a particular person with a particular license was able to perform and doing it yourself would be an automatic fail on an inspection even though the work was identical. I've also had some of these people make outright dangerous suggestions because they knew how to read their rule book but they didn't actually understand enough of what caused the rules to be written in that particular way to see when an exception to those rules needed to be made (case in point: someone wanted me to ground a 60' windmill tower at the house instead of at the base of the tower, which in case of a lightning strike would lead the lightning into the house). Really, don't get me started, I've seen way to much of this to have anything but really bad memories of electrical inspectors, I'm sure there are good ones but I just haven't seen any. What I have seen is a bunch of little people with a lot of power to inflate costs resulting in no change or improvement.
cgh 4y ago
Our house was built in 1973 and still has aluminum wiring and a 100A fuse box. So I feel your pain.
tablespoon 4y ago
> The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are supposed to be cables sheathed in green. Where was that? In my (medium-aged) American house and in some newish romex cable I bought last year, the ground wires are all bare copper cables, no green sheathing at all. I've had electrical work done in the last couple weeks, and no one even mentioned them. IIRC (not an electricial) bare copper and green-sheathed wires are both acceptable for ground wires.
mattpallissard 4y ago
> I understand that these regulations exist in the name of safety, just be aware that any electrical updates to your home will likely involve a lot more work than you initially think. If it's been without issue for decades it likely will remain so if left as is. Once someone modifies it the risk of fire, electrocution, etc increases dramatically. That's why it needs to be brought into compliance as a general rule.
Johnny555 4y ago
How much code compliance you need to do depends on the work being done and your local inspector. I replaced a panel that was rusted out (there was literally a hole rusted through in the back due to water intrusion in the wall) in a house that was built in the 1940's, re-wired with circuit breakers sometime in the 80's. The electrician said I didn't need to replace any breakers, just the panel. I asked the local inspector if I had to put AFCI's and GFCI's everywhere required by modern code, he confirmed that it was highly recommended, but not strictly required for existing circuits, only for new circuits. I also didn't need to install a cutoff before the panel. Since I was buying new breakers anyway, I ended up putting AFCI/GFCI's as required by code.
m463 4y ago
I had electricians install a new panel and they had lots to say about the new regs. GFCI has been replaced with AFCI, and from what I can tell, it's not that much more protection, but it is a LOT more finicky and will trip for unnecessary reasons. I kind of wonder if some of these safety devices will get people killed because they will fall tromping down to the basement or garage to muck with their panels.
yourapostasy 4y ago
> ...likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. When I build my own residence from scratch, I'm going for a more industrial loft aesthetic vibe where all utilities are run outside the walls where they are easily accessible to frequently modify them as I please. I want to be able to frequently update to code without making a giant, expensive mess, followed by a validation inspection from a licensed electrician. How we build residences today is not compatible with my desires for a sustainable, durable, maintenance- and repair-friendly implementation.
- culebron21 4y ago
  How many operations in the US require a licensed electrician? And is the inspection required everywhere?
  - yourapostasy 4y ago
    The rules around this are fairly complex and there are individual state and even county- and city-level compliance codes, so I can only be fairly hand-wavy in a general sense. For commercial or industrial work above a certain scale and complexity, you probably won't even be able to find a licensed electrician to validate work done by non-licensed personnel for sign off to send up to an inspector. I wouldn't consider a 1MW+ (or anything starting off with a 480V three-phase service) data center appropriate to install with non-licensed staff. There are gray areas the smaller and more residential scale you get. I've seen some pretty awful work funded by apartment complex flippers using non-licensed personnel, for example. Once you are talking about common residential (anything less than 300A, where the average US house is usually around 100-200A, dual single-phase 110V service) though, it depends more upon finding a licensed electrician who agrees to a proposal to validate your work. This is not very popular because it is considered like a mechanic called in to inspect a shade tree mechanic's work or your relatives you only see around Christmas time proposing to pay you to inspect their attempt to clean up after a ransomware attack. But it does happen. Assuming you can find and convince such a licensed electrician, you can do practically anything in such a residential context. It's a lot of work, and if you're a decent software engineer you aren't really saving much money. It would be the sort of thing to do if sloppy electrician work that doesn't meet the standards of r/wireporn or r/cableporn for example just drives you bonkers, and you happen to really like nerding out over strictly interpreting the intricacies of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) with others, and you simply like having the satisfaction of knowing your electrical subsystem that well. If you squint hard enough, the NEC almost takes on a life of its own like source code, which appeals to a lot of technical types, so it isn't hard to find engineers and technicians of different stripes in aerospace, mechanical, civil, etc. doing this kind of DIY. Code compliance inspections are required, but unless you are lighting up new service for example, enforcement varies pretty dramatically between locales. Again, I've seen some pretty shady disasters waiting to happen from flippers, but the city is none the wiser because no permits were pulled.
98codes 4y ago
Not just electrical -- pretty much any system or major structure in your house. We had to have a few minor repairs done to our roof, but due to newly passed regulations (and a 45° roof pitch), the roofers needed to also install roof anchor points (beefy D-rings basically) for their safety before they did anything else. Anecdata, sure, but plumbing, sewer, foundations all have similar stories.

pyb 4y ago

In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your home every time the electrical code gets a change. However, many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary work.

actionfromafar 4y ago
I don't think it's unreasonable to update to code when other changes are made.
londons_explore 4y ago
You are normally required to update anything an electrician touches or could impact. So if you are having a new socket added in your kitchen, then all the other sockets in the kitchen on the same circuit will need updating, and the breaker for the kitchen. But you probably won't have to have your living room rewired.
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  It seems US is way more overregulated when it comes to electricity or building in general.
  - tstrimple 4y ago
    And every time I see a video online of a dance floor or stadium collapsing or people getting electrocuted by accidentally touching ungrounded electrical devices I'm reminded why. That's not to say those things don't happen here, just at a lower frequency. Safety standards are written in blood after all.
    - efitz 4y ago
      Structure collapses are extremely rare, which is why they are always news. I am not unhappy with the state of regulation when it comes to building structures that have the potential to kill hundreds or thousands of people at a time. However I think many locations in the US way overdo regulation when it comes to residential building codes. When you buy a house, you get a professional inspection. If it comes up dangerous, then you are armed with the knowledge to make a risk decision that’s right for you. I don’t need spacecraft level engineering on my car; similarly i don’t need skyscraper level engineering on my house.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        Presumably you pull out a report and do a rundown of all the not to spec electrical work before any guests enter the house? Or are you making the safety call for them too?
        shard 4y ago
        And vice versa, do you ask any hosts whose house you are about to enter whether they have any out-of-spec electrical work before entering the house?
  - efitz 4y ago
nemo44x 4y ago
Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Doing an addition? Well, now you need to ensure the entire house has fire/C02 detectors wired together with it.
- Filligree 4y ago
  > Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for example. Sorry, is there a requirement that every single wall should have a socket? ...that's what extension cords are for.
  - dmm 4y ago
    > that's what extension cords are for. That's exactly why every wall is required to have an outlet now, to reduce the use of extension cords.
  - dboreham 4y ago
    Yes, there are also requirements for example that kitchens have an outlet every N feet (I forget the exact number) in order that the short cords supplied on toasters, kettles etc can reach every part of the counter surface without an extension.
  - _whiteCaps_ 4y ago
    Extension cords are a bad idea. Especially since you can buy 10A rated cords that can be plugged into 15A sockets. https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-ft-16-3-Green-Outdoor-Extension-Cord-1-Pack-SJTW16355GN/320258189 https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-ft-16-3-Green-Outdoor-Ext... There's a really good explanation in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ
    - Filligree 4y ago
      Then the fuse would blow, right?
pavon 4y ago
The general rule in most places is that any circuits that aren't modified as part of the new work don't need to be brought up to modern code. The main service panel is the main thing that ends up needing to be upgraded incidentally, since all circuits depend on it, and that can easily be more expensive than the actual work being done. But that only needs to be done once, and many old houses will want it upgraded anyway to allow for more circuits to be added than the box was originally designed to accommodate. However, I think the 10 years is a bit pessimistic. At least in the US, the code hasn't changed that much in the last 20-30 years, and many of the changes are at the periphery where they are easy to modify like GFCIs, and tamper resistant outlets, etc, so I wouldn't be afraid of making modifications to existing circuits for houses in that range. Older than that you start running into (AA-1350) aluminum wiring (35 years or older) or two-conductor wiring (65 years or older), and you'll want to take the policy of not touching those old circuits unless you plan on completely replacing them.

nsporillo 4y ago

When I got the exterior siding of my home replaced, we also wanted to have our electrical meter box replaced because it was falling off the side of the house. The work we originally thought was needed was just a new meter box. Turned out we needed a new wire run from the meter all the way to our water line, a new pipe for the underground wiring, two additional grounding wires. The utility said it wasnt their problem as the meter itself is their property but the housing, the way it attaches to the house, and the connection to the transformer was our responsibility to pay for. Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. Edit: Because this work was to be done in tandem with the siding replacement to avoid expensive rework, we didn't have much of an option in shopping around as most electricians did not want to deal with coordination with the utility around disconnect and inspection.

quickthrowman 4y ago
> Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. If it’s so simple, why didn’t you do it and save $2,000? Part of that price is uncertainty due to scheduling/coordinating with the siding contractor and utility. Everything after the meter, including grounding conductors, are premises wiring aka your responsibility. Having your electrical service properly grounded sure beats being electrocuted. I manage electricians, and my jobs get charged $110/hr for a journeyman in a service van.
- brodouevencode 4y ago
  It's not simple, and most electricians hate doing it unless it's a fresh install because power companies can be a pain to deal with sometimes.
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- ilyt 4y ago
  Needing the knowledge to do the "right" steps doesn't mean the steps stop being simple, it just means it's "simple but easy to fuck up".

newZWhoDis 4y ago

Required to sheath ground in green? What on earth for? That makes ground less effective since you want any incidental contact with ground to ground the object touching it.

actionfromafar 4y ago
It was probably sheathed in black or some other color originally.
londons_explore 4y ago
Electrical specs are very strict. They aren't just about electrical safety directly, but also about not potentially confusing people in the future. If the cable was black, then someone may not have known that it was an earth cable, and might have cut it, which would leave your electrical installation unsafe. Thats the reasoning why using the wrong color for a wire can make it illegal.
- deleted 4y ago
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- vel0city 4y ago
  That's the thing though: the best choice for a ground wire is no color at all, just the raw copper wire.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
The part of the wire that is connected to the grounding object has no sheathing, but the length of the cable is insulated. The old cable was the same way. The coating was black and looked identical to the other wires running through the wall. I assume the justification for the code is that it makes the ground wire visually distinct.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
Because without a common language for what color wires carry load a simple oversight can be fatal.

planetafro 4y ago

I feel like some of this should be "grand-fathered" in. Perhaps you were a victim of an upsell. Any electricians that can verify? For example, I needed a new fence. I got a few quotes and most were DRASTICALLY high priced as they wanted to move my fence to comply with current code. An older, more experienced worker had no problems with permits and said I was grand-fathered in because it was already existing. I even self-checked with the city. He was right.

brodouevencode 4y ago
I think there's some of this in there too. Out-of-code is grandfathered in unless you're touching that part of the system in most places.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  And even if you're touching that part of the system, you can usually replace like-for-like without bringing it all up to current code, even if the current condition is non-compliant, you can generally put it back to the same level of non-compliance, even if it's with entirely new parts. (I'm not arguing that that's a good idea to elect as a property owner, but rather that NEC does not require "you touch it, you have to fully modernize it". This will likely invite an argument with the AHJ's inspector, if the work is subject to inspection.)
intrasight 4y ago
Many things are grandfathered. But not all. Sometimes it'll be at home owners discretion. For example, I have a Pushmatic panel. The thing sucks. So even if it's grandfathered when I have other work done, I'm still getting rid of it ASAP.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
I made sure to shop around and even asked my neighbors who had the same houseplan about the electrical work they had to get done in the past. The previous owners had neglected to replace some components that had been recalled decades ago, so that obligation ultimately fell to me. I did manage to get a few things grandfathered in, like being able to keep a three pronged outlet for the dryer. But ultimately I made peace with the fact that the house's electrical system was in a neglected state and the fixes simply had to be made.

brodouevencode 4y ago

Where do you live? In a lot of municipalities any out-of-code work can remain unless they are actively touching that part of the system. For instance, if you had ungrounded outlets in your house, but were just getting a drop for a ceiling fan you wouldn't have to install grounds as part of that work. So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway.

zardo 4y ago
> So they must have been having to touch all those components anyway. Or they conveniently misunderstood the regulatory requirements.
- brodouevencode 4y ago
  Just trying to give benefit of the doubt. I suspect this was a tack-on.
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ilyt 4y ago
If you're mounting EV charger, or heat pump you'd me most likely running separate circuit off main box for them. Which means you have to fix the main box. Which is most expensive part to fix.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Most of the time the main box is good enough. Fuses are still legal. There are a few boxes that are safety hazards, but if you have one you should replace it even if not planning any other work (some circuit breakers don't trip when overloaded!).
  - kjax 4y ago
    Hello, Federal Pioneer 15A Stab-Lok blue breakers (old style, without the holes) here. I can personally confirm their potential for not tripping when overloaded, along with the smouldering outcome...

londons_explore 4y ago

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standards. Suddenly the $20+10 minute job has turned into a $15k and 3 weeks complete rewire. So most people don't have a key safety device added. And still every year people die from not having one.

anikom15 4y ago
Which country? In the U.S., GFCIs only need to be installed in specific locations, which is good. I do not want my refrigerator or computer on a GFCI. In the U.K., you just can’t have plugs in bathrooms (aside from the shaver plug), which is probably more sensible.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  They only need to be installed in specific places... But they ought to be installed for the whole house. You do want your refrigerator on one. What when your mom is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of leftovers, knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC lamp power supply kills her though the metal saucepan? What when a baby puts a fork into an electrical outlet in the living room? What when floodwater comes in and kills everyone on the ground floor of your house while you are frantically wading in the water trying to move furniture upstairs? There are plenty of times you want a whole house GFCI.
  - anikom15 4y ago
    My mom doesn’t live with me (the bulb inside the fridge is LED anyway), I don’t have a baby (babies don’t carry metal forks), and I live on the second floor (but the power would be out long before the first floor floods). I don’t want whole house GFCI.

repiret 4y ago

You don't say where you are, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. Where I am, in Oregon, USA: * I own a house that was built in the early 20th century. As was typical of the time, the house has a small number of fused circuits, which do not have a ground wire, and where the wire gauge is thinner than would be required for a modern circuit of the same capacity. Just the same, it's perfectly legal to: * Add new outlets to existing circuits without changing the fuse to match the wire gauge of the circuit or adding a ground wire. It has to either be a NEMA 1-15R receptacle (no ground plug) or a GFCI receptacle with a label that says there's no equipment ground. * Replace the fuse boxes with modern breaker boxes without re-wiring the house to have grounded outlets. The only limitation is that the new breakers would have to be smaller than the existing fuses so that the wire gauge meets current code for the breaker size. * I have a 1998 house which has several pairs of circus on opposite phases which share a neutral wire. This is legal still, but requires that the circuits are connected to dual-throw breakers, so that it's not possible to have one circuit hot with the other dead. But this house doesn't use dual-throw breakers like it should. As far as I know, that wasn't even code when the house was built. But electricians can still add new circuits without fixing that. * Some years ago I was remodeling a 1956 house. Initially, the inspector asserted that we would need to replace a staircase whose width and pitch did not meet current code. But he was mistaken. Even though we replaced the stair treads, because we didn't make any changes to the structure of the staircase, the head county building inspector agreed that we didn't need to bring it to current code.

sokoloff 4y ago
Multi-wire branch circuits (your second point) will likely always be legal, because they're fundamentally safe from an engineering point of view. Requiring common-disconnect (but not common-trip) breakers I think was a requirement since before 1998, but because it only needs common-disconnect, a listed handle-tie between the two breakers will suffice. (In other words, this should be a quite inexpensive situation to remedy. $8 for 3 of them at Home Depot for one particular common panel: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-Handle-Tie-for-Single-Pole-Breaker-QO1HTCP/100165878 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-Hand...)

carcostthrow 4y ago

Oh it gets even funnier then that. So I took quick look into what it would actually take to upgrade the main circuit breaker in the house assuming a 100A to 200A upgrade is needed to accommodate both an EV and a heat pump. I thought it was $5000 or so. As it turns out, $5000 is for pole mounted service. It's range is actually around $15,000 to $25,000 for underground service, as it requires digging the line from the street to the house. Unknown how much cost there if too many houses here need to upgrade as well which would necessitate upgrading transformers feeding this area (most houses here are 100A AFAIK).

brianwawok 4y ago
EV or not EV, I really think you want 200A service? It has been the standard for quite a few years, and I cannot imagine only having 100A service in a proper house (would be fine for an apartment or whatnot). Now I am higher electric usage than most, but I hit over 100A several times a day (but have never hit 200A and flipped my breaker). The actually switching out your circuit breaker from 100A to 200A is cheap (2-3k?). Almost all of the cost is for the utility to run you a bigger line, and they can pretty much charge you anything they want (what is your alternative if you don't like the price?)
- zbrozek 4y ago
  Electrical code has completely unreasonable and unrealistic demand factors associated with appliances. Basically "1" for just about everything, as well as 3 watts per square foot of floor area. If you sum all of these things up, I'm well above the 200 amp service delivered to my home. Reality? I had a peak draw of 23 amps from the grid in the last year. Luckily the NEC has an escape valve for folks who can prove that.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Right, don't go off code for having to do a big upgrade like this. I legit hit 100A several times a month. Have hit over 150A. Easy way for me to draw 100A at once: 40A: EV charging 32A: Electric Oven warming up at max 24A: Electric Dryer 40A: HotTub jets on 40A: AC ON Max Unlikely all of those are on full max, but it's pretty easy to imagine getting past 100A before we even touch things like lights and computers. EV + Dryer + Hot Tub pretty much pull max for the entire run, the other stuff is more likely to cycle up and down.

jonesdc 4y ago

How did you go about searching for an electrician who you trusted? Any particular sources or just calling locally? I’m looking to get some new cabling placed since I can’t navigate within the walls

DannyBee 4y ago

This depends entirely on their code cycle. Those that keep up actually don't have much issue as it's gradual. Current breakdown is: 25 states - 2020+ NEC 17 states - 2017 NEC 2 states - 2014 NEC 2 states - 2008 NEC 8 states - Very local Some of them take 5+ years to update the NEC. Virginia adopted the 2017 NEC in late 2021. When that happens, upgrades can be costly. Though most major changes around AFCI/GFCI usage, pipe types, etc to NEC happened in the 2014/2017 code cycle. So there were definitely some code cycles that were "extra bad" in this sense.

Animats 4y ago

> Even after the replacement was complete the electrician had to come back and redo the wiring connections because the inspector said the PVC joint at the top of the box had to be metal instead. Right. There must be a reliable metallic path to ground. This is a big problem with PVC pipe retrofits. In older houses, plumbing and conduit are metal and good grounds, and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted. Once PVC pipe came in, you have to assume that no pipe is grounded, and you need extra ground wires and stakes. This can happen due to a plumbing repair. Otherwise, a short to "ground" can energize the structure's entire water system. In the original article, if your house doesn't have three-prong outlets, it's time for an full upgrade. You're at least half a century behind. As for training new electricians, "In the past, Reyes recruited workers out of high school and trained them. But he’s reluctant to do it again. It costs his technicians time, it costs him money, and there’s no guarantee that the people he invests in will stick around because the job market is so competitive." Well, welcome to the free market. Maybe you have to pay more. There are International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers apprenticeship programs not mentioned in the article. Here's Local 6, San Francisco.[1] They require high school graduation, a grade of C or better in algebra and trigonometry, and drug testing to become an apprentice. The apprenticeship is three years. "Grid Alternatives partners with local organizations, like Homeboy Industries, a gang-intervention program, to introduce former inmates as well as other underrepresented people, to careers in solar. Those admitted to Grid’s training receive “wraparound supportive services” that address barriers they might have to participating, such as helping them get driver’s licenses, open bank accounts, or, for those formerly incarcerated, find attorneys." That may be starting too far down the food chain. "But this past year, Laney’s program almost fell apart after one of its teachers, Forough Hashemi, announced she would be retiring at the end of the spring 2022 semester. Hashemi had been teaching six classes each semester, essentially holding the program together". Laney College seems rather disorganized. Their web site says "Fall Classes Start August 24, 2020 – Enroll Now!". If their idea of recruiting is "we sent some letters and nobody responded", that's the college's problem. [1] https://ibew6.org/ https://ibew6.org/

repiret 4y ago
> ... and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted Do you have a citation for this? I was under the impression that using plumbing as equipment ground was never allowed, but that conductive plumbing has required to be bonded to ground for some time. I was further under the impression that by code, plumbing repairs couldn't leave behind unbonded sections of conductive plumbing.

jacquesm 4y ago

> shop around and to get multiple quotes in order to make sure I wasn't being taken advantage of But you were taken advantage of. It's just that with the level of collusion in North America regarding electrical work and plumbing you are not going to be able to avoid it. I've seen the weirdest requirements which only a particular person with a particular license was able to perform and doing it yourself would be an automatic fail on an inspection even though the work was identical. I've also had some of these people make outright dangerous suggestions because they knew how to read their rule book but they didn't actually understand enough of what caused the rules to be written in that particular way to see when an exception to those rules needed to be made (case in point: someone wanted me to ground a 60' windmill tower at the house instead of at the base of the tower, which in case of a lightning strike would lead the lightning into the house). Really, don't get me started, I've seen way to much of this to have anything but really bad memories of electrical inspectors, I'm sure there are good ones but I just haven't seen any. What I have seen is a bunch of little people with a lot of power to inflate costs resulting in no change or improvement.

cgh 4y ago

Our house was built in 1973 and still has aluminum wiring and a 100A fuse box. So I feel your pain.

tablespoon 4y ago

> The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are supposed to be cables sheathed in green. Where was that? In my (medium-aged) American house and in some newish romex cable I bought last year, the ground wires are all bare copper cables, no green sheathing at all. I've had electrical work done in the last couple weeks, and no one even mentioned them. IIRC (not an electricial) bare copper and green-sheathed wires are both acceptable for ground wires.

mattpallissard 4y ago

> I understand that these regulations exist in the name of safety, just be aware that any electrical updates to your home will likely involve a lot more work than you initially think. If it's been without issue for decades it likely will remain so if left as is. Once someone modifies it the risk of fire, electrocution, etc increases dramatically. That's why it needs to be brought into compliance as a general rule.

Johnny555 4y ago

How much code compliance you need to do depends on the work being done and your local inspector. I replaced a panel that was rusted out (there was literally a hole rusted through in the back due to water intrusion in the wall) in a house that was built in the 1940's, re-wired with circuit breakers sometime in the 80's. The electrician said I didn't need to replace any breakers, just the panel. I asked the local inspector if I had to put AFCI's and GFCI's everywhere required by modern code, he confirmed that it was highly recommended, but not strictly required for existing circuits, only for new circuits. I also didn't need to install a cutoff before the panel. Since I was buying new breakers anyway, I ended up putting AFCI/GFCI's as required by code.

m463 4y ago

I had electricians install a new panel and they had lots to say about the new regs. GFCI has been replaced with AFCI, and from what I can tell, it's not that much more protection, but it is a LOT more finicky and will trip for unnecessary reasons. I kind of wonder if some of these safety devices will get people killed because they will fall tromping down to the basement or garage to muck with their panels.

yourapostasy 4y ago

> ...likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. When I build my own residence from scratch, I'm going for a more industrial loft aesthetic vibe where all utilities are run outside the walls where they are easily accessible to frequently modify them as I please. I want to be able to frequently update to code without making a giant, expensive mess, followed by a validation inspection from a licensed electrician. How we build residences today is not compatible with my desires for a sustainable, durable, maintenance- and repair-friendly implementation.

culebron21 4y ago
How many operations in the US require a licensed electrician? And is the inspection required everywhere?
- yourapostasy 4y ago
  The rules around this are fairly complex and there are individual state and even county- and city-level compliance codes, so I can only be fairly hand-wavy in a general sense. For commercial or industrial work above a certain scale and complexity, you probably won't even be able to find a licensed electrician to validate work done by non-licensed personnel for sign off to send up to an inspector. I wouldn't consider a 1MW+ (or anything starting off with a 480V three-phase service) data center appropriate to install with non-licensed staff. There are gray areas the smaller and more residential scale you get. I've seen some pretty awful work funded by apartment complex flippers using non-licensed personnel, for example. Once you are talking about common residential (anything less than 300A, where the average US house is usually around 100-200A, dual single-phase 110V service) though, it depends more upon finding a licensed electrician who agrees to a proposal to validate your work. This is not very popular because it is considered like a mechanic called in to inspect a shade tree mechanic's work or your relatives you only see around Christmas time proposing to pay you to inspect their attempt to clean up after a ransomware attack. But it does happen. Assuming you can find and convince such a licensed electrician, you can do practically anything in such a residential context. It's a lot of work, and if you're a decent software engineer you aren't really saving much money. It would be the sort of thing to do if sloppy electrician work that doesn't meet the standards of r/wireporn or r/cableporn for example just drives you bonkers, and you happen to really like nerding out over strictly interpreting the intricacies of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) with others, and you simply like having the satisfaction of knowing your electrical subsystem that well. If you squint hard enough, the NEC almost takes on a life of its own like source code, which appeals to a lot of technical types, so it isn't hard to find engineers and technicians of different stripes in aerospace, mechanical, civil, etc. doing this kind of DIY. Code compliance inspections are required, but unless you are lighting up new service for example, enforcement varies pretty dramatically between locales. Again, I've seen some pretty shady disasters waiting to happen from flippers, but the city is none the wiser because no permits were pulled.

98codes 4y ago

Not just electrical -- pretty much any system or major structure in your house. We had to have a few minor repairs done to our roof, but due to newly passed regulations (and a 45° roof pitch), the roofers needed to also install roof anchor points (beefy D-rings basically) for their safety before they did anything else. Anecdata, sure, but plumbing, sewer, foundations all have similar stories.