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No, you can’t manufacture that like Apple does (2014)
- carabiner 4y ago[2014] I've wondered what Apple-level funding and equipment could do in other fields. Like manufacturing those fusion pellets, which requires extreme precision. They're looking at automating some of it using computer vision*. Apple probably has the smartest mechanical engineers in the world because of $$; what would happen if their energies were diverted to traditional industries facing bottlenecks? * https://phys.org/news/2022-12-giant-laser-star-trek-fusion.html https://phys.org/news/2022-12-giant-laser-star-trek-fusion.h...
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- moring 4y agoFunding and equipment are worthless unless you put them in the right hands (see government projects, for example, which get huge funding and then burn through it without useful results). Also, Apple does a few other things right besides engineering: Understand which problems are worth solving. Pick problems that they are certain they can solve. Understand the users / customers enough to know what a good solution even looks like. But then, traditional industries could use a dose of all of that, too.
- mschuster91 4y ago> see government projects, for example, which get huge funding and then burn through it without useful results That's because that is precisely their purpose. Non-SpaceX NASA using Russian engines was not a technical decision, it was to keep Russians busy enough to not sell out to NK/Iran. Stuff being sent all over the country and back again in Boeing, ULA, EADS, Airbus et al. is a waste of money but is to get the votes from politicians wanting pork.
- proto-n 4y agoFun and short read, thanks for sharing. I'm not going to be manufacturing hardware any time soon, but I always love random insights into another field. I wonder what an apple car would look like.
- midoridensha 4y agoProbably a lot like a Tesla, requiring you to use menus on a touchscreen just to open the glove compartment.
- gattilorenz 4y agoThe iPhone still has the tactile "silent mode" toggle, and CarPlay is definitely designed to be less distracting than Android Auto (despite Android Auto working generally better, imho), so I wouldn't be so sure about that.
- willyt 4y agoThe driving directions in google maps are terrible though. I’ve been using Apple Maps for a while and someone WhatsApped me a map link I didn’t notice it had opened google maps and I was getting annoyed that it wasn’t telling me what lane to go in and it was too late telling what exit to take on roundabouts.
- gorjusborg 4y agoGlad I'm not crazy. I have used android auto and car play in the same vehicle, and car play seems noticably worse. The top of mind issues I've seen: Car play requires unlock when the phone is reattached via USB. With android auto, I can simply reconnect after initial configuration. Music playback stutters fairly often when streaming spotify. Car play and the iphone more often get into a state where the phone is connected physically but the phone "isn't connected"
- capableweb 4y ago> Car play and the iphone more often get into a state where the phone is connected physically but the phone "isn't connected" I thought this was just me. I used to use Android Auto on the same car I have now, and never had this issue. Got a iPhone some year/s ago and sometimes this happens, maybe once every month or so, but thought the issue was my car or the phone itself. Good to know it happens to others.
- wolframhempel 4y agoThis reminds me of the multiple times VC's asked me "but will it scale to Facebook dimensions?"...Well - NO!. Pretty much nothing does. They had to write their own MySQL engine, for fucks sake. Because, apart from Facebook, no one has close to 40% of humankind as userbase. Conclusion: at a certain scale or level of execution, challenges change from a quantitative to a qualitative nature.
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- davnicwil 4y agoWhat I find interesting about this is that facebook themselves didn't, as far as it seems, ask that question early on. They built things just good enough, and just built out from there as they grew, fixing things as required for the usage they had. I think another example is writing their own PHP interpreter (or something like that) to speed up the backend when that became a legit concern at massive scale. I think this serves as an existence proof that 'will it scale' is often a meaningless question in the early days of a company. It doesn't matter. If it can't, deal with it then in an appropriate manner with all the specific context of how it's being used - regardless it's a good problem to have either way!
- ljf 4y agoThis! I was helping a friend with a site he was building. He kept wanting to spend loads of money early on to make sure he could scale, but I advised him to stay cheap and lean - and worry about scale when he got there. He would have spent a lot of money on scale he ultimately would not need.
- amelius 4y agoI don't think this is entirely true, as a userbase may not grow gradually but with big jumps occasionally. For example, in moments right after the platform gets broad publicity. See also "the slashdot effect".
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- sschueller 4y ago"No ejector pin marks Unless you’re a billionaire genius, your product will have noticeable ejector pin marks. A good CM knows how to hide these well. Nearly zero CMs hide them as well as Apple does. Embrace it. Most consumers don’t know what the hell an ejector pin mark is anyways." I would argue that LEGO hides them just as well if not better than Apple.
- bennyp101 4y agoUntil you said that, I thought they meant the pin hole to eject the sim card - which had me confused, so I guess they actually mean injection moulding or something?
- autophagian 4y agoYeah, they are the glossy circles that appear on injection moulded plastic parts. It's caused by the pins that quickly push the cooled part out of the mould.
- bennyp101 4y agoGotcha, thanks!
- Gigachad 4y agoYeah, it’s what pops the part out when it’s done I’m pretty sure. There is also the mark where the plastic was injected.
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- rkangel 4y agoLEGO is in the same league as Apple for manufacturing (one of the few). Of course their job is simpler because "all" they're good at is injection moulding plastic. But they're really good at it.
- rvz 4y agoSometimes it is best for startups to stop pretending that they are operating like FAAMNG companies and rather than racing to burn millions of their VC cash into frivolous projects every month and over hiring, perhaps do more with less to turn a profit to stay afloat. You are not Amazon, Google, Apple or Microsoft.
- jesuscript 4y agoThe appearance of being a "premium" startup was probably necessary for a variety of reasons, including investor confidence, hiring, PR credibility, etc. It's fine, it works until it doesn't. It's not like they really know what to do with the extra VC money anyway, might as well spruce up the company to appear premium. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ktvE2vfxSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ktvE2vfxSQ "You think I have time to ask a man why he giving me money, where he gets his money from? I'll take any motherfuckers money if he giving it away" - Senator Clay Thompson VCs gave money away, so we spent it. These companies usually need 1/10th of whatever money they get for the core product (in all sincerity, a lot of them need no money, but that's a whole different story few would cop to). Money spent on everything else is, well, everything else.
- ZephyrBlu 4y agoForgot to add (2014). There are a couple of past discussions on this as well. 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11789920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11789920 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8335424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8335424
- throwaway2056 4y agoI thought it will have some information - why/how? Seems just like points from wide internet for a PR powerpoint. There was a talk from Andrew “bunnie” Huang about challenges in manufacturing which is in detail.
- MengerSponge 4y agoThe main why/how is: $$$. Sacks and barrels and truckloads of cash. They sell high-margin devices at a huge scale, and they have a deep corporate culture of making things that are "pretty".
- koofdoof 4y agoWould it be possible for you to link his talk?
- throwaway2056 4y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZSMecf8ziM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZSMecf8ziM
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- jiggawatts 4y agoReminds me of a conversation I had with someone in the pharmaceutical industry. He lamented that the box was by far the most expensive component for many of their products. Paracetamol is cheap, glossy full-colour printing with embossing is not!
- midoridensha 4y ago[flagged]
- bigDinosaur 4y agoCan you qualify (and quantify) that risk? No medication is totally safe. For example, Aspirin can cause gastrointestinal bleeding but in reality it's safe when taken in most use cases (i.e. not chronically).
- _zoltan_ 4y agoNearly every substance can cause damage if you chronically abuse it maybe except water (unless you ingest a lot rapidly, but that's an other story.)
- SargeDebian 4y agoDo you have a source for that? It is the default painkiller in the Netherlands, and it's what GPs typically prescribe people that come to them with something that doesn't really need treatment, to the point that it's a meme. I'd be interested in hearing how they're wrong to that extent, on such scale.
- jen20 4y agoSame in the UK - Cocodamol was my default hangover cure for years and works a treat. I’ve heard it said (by pharmacists) that paracetamol likely wouldn’t pass a clinical trial if it went through one with modern standards, though.
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- MrBuddyCasino 4y agoThere is also a flip side to this: there is massive contract manufacturing capacity in China due to Apple's investment, and it isn't always used 100%. This means you can book spare machine time to CNC machine your niche aluminum product, like the FormD [0] guys did with the T1. It will not be a high priority for the factory, but if you can wait a little this it is a possibility. [0] https://formdworks.com/collections/t1-1 https://formdworks.com/collections/t1-1
- iainmerrick 4y agoGood list! There are a couple in here that I really wish Apple would stop doing, though: Molded plastic packaging 4-color, double-walled, matte boxes + HD foam inserts Apple packaging looks pretty but it’s a pain. It’s so tightly packed it can be very hard to open, and all that plastic seems massively wasteful. I’ll admit it is kind of fun peeling off those perfectly-positioned plastic wrappers on absolutely everything, but that again seems very wasteful, and you can’t re-pack it in the same way. I love products with simple but cleverly-designed cardboard packaging and recyclable or compostable filling. Apple doesn’t do that, but they should.
- dima_vm 4y agoFramework laptop has the best eco-friendly smart packaging I've seen.
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoAnd the Fairphone
- nathancahill 4y agoThey've gotten better with the more recent iPhones. I think since the 12, it's just in a slim box with a single insert.
- iainmerrick 4y agoAs noted above, I recently bought a new Apple Pencil, which came in: Double-walled outer box with one end glued shut Double-walled inner box solidly glued together Pencil in a molded paper(?) tray glued into the inner box (on top of a supporting frame of cheaper cardboard) Instruction manual in its own slim double-walled box The outer box is still fairly small, but it’s super dense packaging! I think the Pencil itself had a paper-y protective wrapping too. The whole outer box was also wrapped in plastic, if I remember right (rather than just a sticker holding it closed).
- spongeb00b 4y ago
- ricardobayes 4y agoEverything is possible if you pay your workers approx. 430-500 USD a month (according to Reuters) https://www.reuters.com/world/china/apple-supplier-foxconn-gives-pay-rise-staff-hit-by-covid-lockdown-media-2022-11-01/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/apple-supplier-foxconn-g... "A typical Foxconn worker makes between 3,000 to 4,000 yuan a month." And yes, "everyone else is doing it" is not an answer.
- shaunkoh 4y agoHow much do you think they should be paid instead?
- SargeDebian 4y agoI don't think Apple's ability to use lasers to drill tiny holes specifically depends on the salary range of Foxconn's assembly workers, but I could be wrong.
- hef19898 4y agoHate to break it to you, but laser drilled holes is something anybody can do. After all, basically all Apple manufacturing is done by sub-contractors anyway. And those manufacture for everybody. It is like saying nobody can ship B2C like Amazon does, while ignoring the fact a very big junk of shipments is handled by the likes of DHL, and ignoring all the 3PLs Amazon is using for warehousing.
- Someone 4y agoYes anybody can have third parties do it for them, but few are willing to pay for it. Also, most smaller players cannot afford it because of economies of scale makes the first ten thousand holes way more expensive than the ten millionth.
- _zoltan_ 4y agothis is irrelevant to the post.
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- keep3490 4y ago[dead]
- Aissen 4y agoThis is a nice article, but like many things, it would have been better if things were sourced instead of written back from memory. For example, the laser-hole macbook light thing, did Apple really buy the company or entered a multi-year exclusivity agreement ? https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-laser-manufacturing/ https://venturebeat.com/business/apple-laser-manufacturing/ Things like this provide clarity and precision, and reinforce (or nuance) the original point.
- jagged-chisel 4y agoThe article you link seems to answer your questions with “yes, Apple did those things.” Is there some additional nuance that I may have overlooked?
- Aissen 4y agoI meant that this medium article was nice but lacked sources. At least the one I pointed at cited Businessweek, even though we now know how (not) serious Bloomberg can be…
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- samwillis 4y agoThe one I would argue against here is the ejector pin marks. If you have ejector pin marks visible of the "outside" of your component then something has gone wrong in the design process. Injection moulding tools have two sides, a static and a moving side. The static side will contain the "gate" where the molten plastic is injected. You would almost always expect the moving side to be the visible side of the component, it tends to be simpler in features and polished. The static side will have many mechanical features such as ribs for strengthening, or snaps/bosses for securing other components. When the tool opens the part will stay in the static half, then be ejected by the ejector pins. All these should be hidden on the inner side of the component. The exception to this is components with no inside/outside, the sort of thing that may be a visible component in a hinge. What is much more likely to be an issue for someone trying to imitate Apple are visible seams or witness marks on side actions on the tool. A side action is where you have a part of the tool move at 90deg (or some other angle) to the main opening action. This lets you build in undercuts, or have holes in the side. (There are also collapsible cores, but these tend to be on the inside of a part) The witness marks where the side actions fit against the rest of the tool are almost impossible to hide, you even sometimes see them on some Apple products. You need very very tight tolerances through the whole stack to ensure they are so small you hardly notice them. Well designed plastic component are created when the engineer/designer has a thorough understanding of the manufacturing process and are thinking about how the tooling will work while they are designing the part. The issues arise when you design a part, then hand it over to someone else to design the tool with no input into the design process. Edit: Another one I used to have customers ask for was to have "no seam" between two plastic parts "like Apple". Fitting two plastic parts together with no seam is basically impossible unless you are Apple. It's why you almost always see a ~1mm uniform gap between the parts, it helps to hide any misalignment and gives you a closing tolerance between the parts.
- rkagerer 4y agoFitting two plastic parts together with no seam is basically impossible unless you are Apple. How's Apple do it? Any tricks aside from very tight tolerances (eg. Not applicable to all geometries but in 3D printed parts I've leveraged chamfers that bring a mating feature to a "knife" edge to essentially "bite in" to the other surface when I want a tight fit without gaps and without post-processing)
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- amelius 4y agoAnd Apple cannot manufacture that like TSMC does.
- Lio 4y agoAnd TSMC cannot manufacture that like ASML does. And ASML cannot manufacture that like Zeiss does. Most companies have suppliers for a reason. I don't see anything wrong with that.
- vinay427 4y agoYour statement is obviously true, as it is about many pairs of organizations, but this post is at least ostensibly intended for startup product creators interested in imitating Apple's consumer hardware prowess. I doubt most startups are trying to build something comparable to TSMC's output.
- snowwrestler 4y agoApple does not in fact manufacture anything at all. What they do, is work with their contract manufacturers (like Foxconn or TSMC) in an unusually deep and collaborative way to design custom parts and the manufacturing processes to produce them.
- rlt 4y ago> What happened when Apple wanted to CNC machine a million MacBook bodies a year? They bought 10k CNC machines to do it. That can’t be right. 1M / 10K = 100 MacBooks per CNC machine per year. Surely it’s at least an order of magnitude or two off?
- rjzzleep 4y agoSounds like something a friend told him, who heard it somewhere. I'd be interested in the real story and the real numbers behind it as well.
- paulsutter 4y agoApple sells hundreds of millions of iphones per year with CNC cases, and does indeed use tens of thousands of CNC machines The real problem with the point in the article is that it’s easy to get CNC work done
- rlt 4y agoMaybe true, but I was doubting the specific numbers of 10K CNC machines for 1M MacBooks. I’m curious how long it takes a single CNC machine to machine a MacBook body.
- hef19898 4y agoI didn't see a naked body, but I'd guess max. one hour including polishing of the visible surfaces (and that is on the upper end, because you put more than one body in the jigs). Edit: The tact time per casing is somewhere around 30 seconds (assuming 24/7 operations). Which is absolutely doable, not just for apple but for everyone with a demand of 1 million units per year for the same part.
- Retric 4y agoI have read 10 hours per Mack book initially split across multiple machines, but I don’t know how accurate that was. Or if that was adjusted for scrap rate and downtime etc. Presumably they wanted to create rumors to improve peoples perception of quality. On the other hand it’s several fairly large complicated parts and their removing a lot of material from the blanks.
- nier 4y agoApple had a few years in their history when they faked white plastic by painting transparent plastic white on the inside.
- isametry 4y agoCan you please give a product example?
- unsafecast 4y agoI think the iBooks were made like that.
- nier 4y agoThat’s correct and here’s a case modification where someone removed the white paint off the inside. https://www.applefritter.com/hacks/tronbook https://www.applefritter.com/hacks/tronbook
- awesomeMilou 4y agoWouldn't that also be to fake a specific finish as well? Kinda got to admit that a 3-4mm thick glossy finish where you can see the depth kinda looks cool.
- wkat4242 4y agoI always thought they did this for effect. It gave the white G3 iBooks a really nice crystal look and since. It was very special when they were pristine. However it also magnified any scratches on the surface (they would leave shadows on the white layer that made them much more noticeable) and I think that's why they dropped it for the G4 range. That just had plain white plastic.
- hef19898 4y ago>> CNC machining at scale CNC machining is fantastic for prototypes and pretty awesome for high margin parts like hip implants and turbine blades. It is not for consumer devices. Figure out a way to cast your metal parts. Having a manufacturing back ground, I did extended workbench management early in my career, this is just wrong. Sure, at high volumes casting and injection moulding is unbeatable at per unit costs. At smaller volumes, not so much. Casting and moulding tools cost a fortune, and those upfront NRC are just prohibitive for small volumes. So smart CNC machining it is. Added benefit, there are tons of small CNC machining ships around that are really good at that. Nothing to add on ejector pin marks, if you see those on the outside of your part, your part design and manufacturing / tool design sucks. No need to be a billionaire genius, just a decent plastics engineer. But since the target audiamce of this article are start-ups, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Brcause how many start-up founders have a solid grasp of hardware manufacturing, design, tooling and manufacturing processes? Especially those that want "Apple" without understanding what that means deffinitely don't.
- samwillis 4y ago> Casting and moulding tools cost a fortune It depends very heavily on the complexity and size of the part. Earlier in my career I worked in Medical/BioTech product development for a consultancy working with startups. We found the most cost effective route (in the UK) was to have tooling manufactured in China, but then shipped to the UK. We worked with moulding companies who had in house experience building and modifying tools, so they could make alterations to the tools on site. Tooling for small plastic "clam shell" type products would be in the £20k-£50k region by doing it that way. Being able to visit your manufacturing partner, as a small startup, is essential when launching a product. Too often physical product startups try to run before they can walk. You can always ship a tool back to China once you are up and running, but realistically at that point you know what v2 should be and retooling is required.
- aaronbieber 4y agoIt stood out to me that the author of the post is the COO at a meditation service start-up, not a manufacturing one... Unless Ten Percent Happier is making physical products that I'm unaware of. I think this guy was just musing about Apple's quality and has watched a lot of AvE and This Old Tony on YouTube and wanted to share his opinions with the world. They're not all entirely correct. For anyone who wants to go on the whole manufacturing journey, don't miss the Linus Tech Tips video about why their screwdriver took 3 years to bring to market (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K5Gqp1cEcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K5Gqp1cEcM). And they based their design on a fully functional production-ready screwdriver, they did not start from scratch. Going from idea to production is really, really hard. Even today, even with CNC and 3D printing and other prototyping tools. Even with all the money LTT has to spend on it (millions of dollars, as I understand it).
- jojobas 4y ago>And that’s a good thing No, a monopoly buying out all of the production capacity for the foreseeable future is not a good thing at all.
- w1nst0nsm1th 4y agoIt's funny to see that because I just made a product review for a Huawei computer (matebook 14 2021) I bought on ebay, stating it has the overal Apple quality (High res glass screen, metalic case, flawless touchpad...) without Apple limited date for consumption (soldered ssd). But Huawei is nothing like a startup.
- dalbasal 4y agoI think this is both very wrong and very right. The title, "You can't..." starts right. The subtitle... "startups can't" takes it off course. It's not about startups, small companies or whatnot. I mean, some things require scale... but this is not really about specific design features. It's about "good enough" vs "really good." Imagine "AverageCo." It's the 19th largest industrial cleaning product supplier in the world. 2nd largest in west belgium. They have decided to invest in a custom ERP system that will handle all their business problems. Stock. Accounting. Manufacturing. Sales. Everything. You are advising them. AverageCo needs to aim for adequate. If they aim for excellent, they'll fail. It's not a good idea to demand UIs be slick like netflix, or clever like google. The brutal reality is that designing and project managing a good Salesforce or Oracle implementation is likely a stretch for AverageCo. They are not about to outdo amazon. It does not matter how many consultants they hire. Outside consultants get you to adequate, not excellent. OTOH, a lean, agile software startup may well outperform amazon in some specific area. The way they will do this is by being clever, tactical, and knowledgeable in little areas. They know what's easy or hard to solve. They'll pick good goals, make clever trade offs and slick compromises. They'll choose a stack that makes the hard parts easy. They'll avoid getting bogged down, changing the plan dynamically to avoid difficulties. Those tactics are only possible when you are close to the process. If you hire a prototype company, followed by an industrial design consultant, then outsource manufacturing... you are not close enough to the process to be brilliant. You'll need to live with adequate. This isn't because excellence is impossible, it's because you are not excellent at this. Big companies are famously incapable of admitting they are anything but excellent at anything. Startups can be conceited too. In this case, a lot of startups need to realize that they are suits. You are not the hacker who can write his own JS framework or patch the OS. You are the guy who has no idea how to design the manufacturing process yourself.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago> 2nd largest in west belgium. Strong vibes from Borat's sister here, tbh.
- marcosdumay 4y agoHum... You got a bad example, since good ERPs do not exist. There are minimally sufficient ones and insufficient ones. The one you get from Salesforce or Oracle can land on either of those categories. The same applies to the one you develop in house.
- tomxor 4y ago> 4-color, double-walled, matte boxes + HD foam inserts [...] the most expensive line item on your BOM [...] And then they get thrown away. I hate this whenever I buy a consumer product, I look at the box and think, that's a £10er I'm just sticking in the bin. I like functional brutalist packaging, not only is it cheaper but usually also more durable and reusable due to not being specifically shaped. Whenever I buy a piece of gear that comes in such a box It makes me happy that more of my money went into the actual device, or at least funding the company to invest more in developing the device, rather than a pretty piece of cardboard.
- leokennis 4y agoWhile Apple still produces the nicest looking boxes, I think the box my 2020 MacBook Air M1 came in used less cardboard and less plastic than the box my 2004 iPod 3rd Gen came in. I’d gladly buy all my tech in the ugliest refurbished bare cardboard boxes, but few companies package their goods as efficiently as Apple these days.
- snowwrestler 4y agoApple has done a lot of work to create packaging that is mostly paper, eliminating most of the plastic and foam. Even the little doohickeys to keep the cables neatly coiled are made of paper now. They have also shrunk the overall size of the boxes. A 2023 14” MacBook Pro is about the same size as a white plastic iBook G4 from 2005, but the box is about half the volume. This also lowers the per-machine shipping costs because they can fit more of them in the plane.
- sirsinsalot 4y agoMany Sony products have zero plastic, 100% recycled paper packaging. It works really well too with some clever package design. WF-1000MX4 and WH-1000MX5 products come to mind
- angelgonzales 4y agoPackaging is like insurance, because it’s usually not needed but it’s required to be used 100% in order to mitigate infrequent events like dropping a package. Most packaging is close to optimized for cost and protection of the contents relative to their value, think Pringles cans. An iPhone or MacBook is a $1000-3000 computer, $10-100 in packaging is normal for that sort of product. If I buy a heavy machine from Europe it’s going to cost 10% of that machine just to crate it and another 10-15% for shipping oversea. I don’t complain about that cost because I know it keeps my investment intact during transit or storage.
- AgentOrange1234 4y agoWhat’s the best counter-example? I.e., are there actually beautiful, Apple-esque devices being made by startups?
- JoeyBananas 4y agoI don't get MacBooks. At the end of the day you're paying more for something that is easy to transport but less good at being a laptop.
- lovesdogsnsnow 4y agoI had a conversation with Matt Rogers at a tradeshow a long time back. The thing that stuck with me was that despite his experience at Apple, experience building the iPod, iPad and iPhone and direct relationships with the same factories as he'd worked with at Apple, he wasn't able to get the same results at Nest. Alernate title: No, you can't manufacture that like Apple does, even if you literally worked with Steve Jobs to build the iPod, iPad and iPhone, hire your best colleagues from Apple and work with the exact same factories as Apple uses https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-founder-nest-thermostat-taught-me-product-arthur-etchells/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-founder-nest-thermostat-...