19 ms·

Iranian attack drone found to contain parts from more than a dozen US companies

209 points by ironyman 4y ago

ramesh31 4y ago
It would be a lot scarier if they didn't. This means Iran (and Russia) does not have the capability to build these things without western components.
- p1esk 4y ago
  It is actually far scarier that they are able to bypass any sanctions and buy everything they need to make weapons. And it seems US government can’t do much about it.
  - k__ 4y ago
    Question is if this is on purpose.
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    Should be easy enough to fix: 5 SANCT Pull this pin high if you're using this product in a sanctioned country or product
    - zinekeller 4y ago
      That's the hardware equivalent of the evil bit (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3514.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3514.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit).
      - ot 4y ago
        That's the joke
        brookst 4y ago
        It’s funny because it pretends to assume that wrongdoers will closely follow the instructions even to their own detriment.
      - planede 4y ago
        The bit field is laid out as follows: 0 +-+ |E| +-+ I had a good laugh at this.
  - purkka 4y ago
    As long as these are commonly available components, made in the millions, it's absolutely impossible to stop Russia and Iran from sourcing the thousands they need.
    - cm2187 4y ago
      Particularly given that these seem to be fairly low tech devices that a modellist could probably put together.
    - tyho 4y ago
      Indeed, the microcontroller pictured in the article seems to be a fairly unremarkable DSP from TI: https://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28335 https://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28335. I can buy them from over a dozen online stores in the uk for around £20 a piece.
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    Those components are mostly dual-use and not that exciting. And they probably don't get as many of them as they like, and they have to design around their lack of access. All of that already imposes costs on them, which is felt in the drones being more expensive and less capable than otherwise possible.
  - nverno 4y ago
    > the microchips and other small devices ending up in so many of the Iranian and Russian drones are not only inexpensive and widely available, they are also easily hidden. I think the fact they can bypass sanctions to get these sorts of parts is expected- after all, they are the ones securing their borders. The OP is right, it would be more worrisome from a military perspective if they further had the capabilities to produce all this themselves.
- warinukraine 4y ago
  My thoughts exactly. Solving (or mitigating) the "they're bypassing sanctions" problem is easier than the "they can manufacture everything then need" problem.
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >This means Iran (and Russia) does not have the capability to build these things without western components. Not necessarily - could just be cheaper to buy them from a middleman in China.
29athrowaway 4y ago
[flagged]
- Ygg2 4y ago
  What do you mean? Shah was installed by the US and got overthrown by protests only for current radical clerics to take control.
- dboreham 4y ago
  "installed by" in a fairly indirect way though, right? (by first installing the Shah who then caused a revolution, leading to the current regime coming to power very much against US wishes and interests).
  - ttyprintk 4y ago
    You’re giving too much benefit of the doubt to their analysis. We shouldn’t have to redefine the word “installed” to make their pieces fit.
  - chimprich 4y ago
    The US / UK coup in the 50s overthrew a democratically-elected leader to install a puppet regime. The subsequent revolution was to a large extent a backlash against imperialism. "Installed by" may not be accurate, but that the current regime is in power is largely a consequence of Western actions. I think Western policy towards Iran has been an absolute disaster in just about any measurement you can think of: global security, regional stability, the Iranian people.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    Sure. We want the grain the sparrows are eating! We need to kill the sparrows so there is more grain to eat! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  They are working on the technology to build nukes and intercontinental missiles. They stir up trouble in the middle-east all the time, bringing your allies and US interests at danger. They threaten to blockade the street of Hormuz which a lot of your goods travel through. They supply weapons to players that want to hurt US citizens elsewhere, sometimes even on US soil. They provide assistance to North Korea and Russia. There are probably more reasons why you should care...
tgflynn 4y ago
Trying to prevent common cheap components that almost anyone in the world can order online from falling into the hands of adversaries is a lost cause. It would require shutting down over half the economy and instituting a draconian and virtually totalitarian control regime. The Biden administration seems to be playing from a 1960's era playbook that makes zero sense in the 21st century.
- arcticfox 4y ago
  This is a shallow take IMO; the idea of sanctions are to add enough friction to hurt, not to be able to completely throttle an adversary. Spending time trying to fund and manage black market networks, raiding recycling centers, buying and dismantling washing machines for chips etc. is all time that the Russians aren't putting towards streamlining cruise missile production.
  - tgflynn 4y ago
    The level of hardship imposed is going to be minimal once the black market structures are in place. These kinds of sanctions may have had an effect in the first few months of the war but that effect has probably vanished to practically nothing by now. At the same time sanctions and export restrictions impose costs on the US and its allies. Those costs aren't worth it if the restrictions aren't themselves effective, which they almost certainly won't be for common off the shelf components.
    - politician 4y ago
      That criminals break laws and crimes require investigation and prosecution which are activities that have associated expenses is not new. You have to remember that both investigation and prosecution involve a large amount of discretion, so the cost of the sanctions regime is dynamic and variable. Enforcement can put a small effort against low-value components and put a large effort into violations of high-value components. If the small effort put against low-value components deters some activity, then the goals of the sanctions regime are furthered.
- 4y ago
treis 4y ago
These aren't really "from" the US companies. They're commodity parts that US & other Western companies design that are manufactured in Asia and sold around the world. The parts are used way too widely to be tracked in any meaningful way.
- PedroBatista 4y ago
  Can you provide the list of the actual parts?
  - treis 4y ago
    Can't seem to find it with a brief google search. But a story like this came out ~6 months ago and the components were all off the shelf microprocessors, sensors, and similar electronics.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Seems like the article disagrees with you, do you have a more reliable source for what you're saying? > Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment. > The remaining 12 components were manufactured by companies in Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Taiwan, and China, according to the assessment. > According to the Ukrainian assessment, among the US-made components found in the drone were nearly two dozen parts built by Texas Instruments, including microcontrollers, voltage regulators, and digital signal controllers; a GPS module by Hemisphere GNSS; a microprocessor by NXP USA Inc.; and circuit board components by Analog Devices and Onsemi. Also discovered were components built by International Rectifier – now owned by the German company Infineon – and the Swiss company U-Blox. So less than 12 of the components were manufactured in Asia, while 40 have been manufactured by US companies. The article also finishes by linking together components with US companies who seem (at a glance / without digging deeper) to manufacture said components within US borders.
  - waihtis 4y ago
    I live in Finland, and Russians have been found looting electronics from the recycling centers over here, supposedly because they need the components back in the motherland. So theoretically they are also using western components but it is not like anyone actually sold these components to the russians.
robomartin 4y ago
Took a quick look. I didn't see a list of components or a link to that list. My guess is these are comercial grade components (as opposed to industrial or military grade). This might mean they are susceptible to forms of attacks higher grade components will survive. In other words, they are not "hardened" (a term that has a range of meanings). Another way to put it might be that they are relatively easy to disrupt and shoot down through means other than kinetic countermeasures.
- bjt2n3904 4y ago
  Another comment has a list here. GPS modules and microcontrollers are about as fancy as it gets. They listed (gasp) power supply regulators, and chips from Analog Devices that I presume to be OpAmps or similar.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > Another way to put it might be that they are relatively easy to disrupt and shoot down through means other than kinetic countermeasures. Ukraine has been achieving very high shoot-down rates on Shahed-136 drones. The Russians have to launch them in big swarms to have a hope of getting any of them through. The drones use a piston engine designed for model airoplanes, driving a pusher propellor. Apparently its top speed is about 135mph. It looks like a jet, with its delta wings; but I'd guess you could shoot one down with a rifle.
duxup 4y ago
> There is no evidence suggesting that any of those companies are running afoul of US sanctions laws and knowingly exporting their technology to be used in the drones Sounds like just standard parts rather than sensitive equipment.
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  Looking at the list its just generic electronics parts that are using in everything the world over.
- sn_master 4y ago
  Rules are made to cause trouble for the average law-abiding citizen, but have almost no effect on actual criminals. e.g when you buy an AR magazine online (just a piece of cheap plastic and a single spring all there is) it says very clearly these are not to be exported outside the US. If you're a lawful citizen and by mistake take one to the airport and get caught with it, would be a lot of trouble, but criminals will just ignore than warning, buy a few hundreds and smuggle them through land or sea no problem. If these components were allowed to be purchased by civilians without a specialized license, then the companies can't really be blamed for it. There's no way to prevent things like that from being smuggled abroad.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    People do get caught for smuggling export-controlled goods. Some Russians were caught a few years ago for trying to export a few night-vision goggles (around 20 or so?). You could probably smuggle out a couple dozen from the consumer market, but hard to do so in higher quantities (enough to outfit a military) without attracting attention. Russia has had issues with not having enough optics, so there's speculation that the Russian NODs for sale to American LARPers for years as milsurp might not have actually been surplus...
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      > (around 20 or so?) So, literally nothing. That's small guys getting slapped for breaking rules. Wake me when France imprisons some Thales executives for selling thermal scopes to Russia (post-invasion!) By the way, the French government is the largest Thales shareholder.
Havoc 4y ago
So the global supply chain is global? Doesn't seem all that surprising that single use drones are being built from readily available parts.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
The US has been shipping refuse to China for quite some time for recycling. I have been to Shenzhen and there are millions of recycled electronic parts owned, manufactured, or distributed by American companies, including "semiconductors and GPS modules". What is the likelihood that these parts are mostly recycled?
- tzs 4y ago
  I doubt that Iran needs to use recycled parts. Most of the components specifically mentioned in the article are things that are common in most electronic devices. They are generally unrestricted and there is no tracking done of who buys them or what they are going to use them for. The only limit on buying them is when the buyer and seller happen to be in different countries that have some sort of general trade restriction between them such as sanctions. These are the countries that Iran has over $1B/year in imports from: China, UAE, India, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland, South Korea, Russia, Italy, UK, Netherlands, and France. As far as I know there are no restrictions on US companies selling these components to buyers or distributors in at least 2/3 of those countries. Iran can probably just order from distributors in many of them, or have someone in one of those countries buy the components and ship them to Iran. Keeping these components out of Iran is about as difficult as keeping something like nails from a US company or USB cables from a US company out of Iran.
  - dmix 4y ago
    Indeed, US sanctions can only increase the costs and lower access to advanced high end tech of domestic Iran defence industry. This still has serious consequences, especially long term and extends well beyond the miltary... Even if the miscellaneous run of the mill electronics aren't controllable.
- kube-system 4y ago
  We ship brand new parts to China too. No need for recycled parts.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
balticthrow 4y ago
[flagged]
desireco42 4y ago
And in those US parts there were Chinese parts... There is a huge anti-globalization wave. To me, this is just slow day at CNN.
NathanielBaking 4y ago
Looking for better information on exactly what components were on the board I found these references: contains many references to pictures and such. https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/iranian-drones-in-ukraine-contain-western-brand-components https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/iranian-drones-i... Most remarkably https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1577619774292606976 https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1577619774292606976 I think to understand the problem you need to see a list of components that are being used but also to understand that substitution is relatively easy in today's world of cross platform embedded systems. I have ordered many of these boards from places like DigiKey and Mouser. Here is on example: https://os.mbed.com/platforms/ https://os.mbed.com/platforms/ Many of these boards are capable of providing the flight control systems for these drones.
uhtred 4y ago
[flagged]
- pjc50 4y ago
  Reminder that this was entirely initiated by Russia, which is the country that needs to make a meaningful peace proposal such as returning to the status quo ante bellum.
  - polartx 4y ago
    If an adult persuaded a child to stick their finger in a mousetrap, the resulting injury wouldn’t be entirely owed to said mousetrap. Like it or not, Putin did exactly what he said he would do should Ukraine (or any other border adjacent country), attempt to join NATO. What changed is that our sitting President encouraged Ukraine’s to go for it, where past presidents discouraged poking the bear.
    - mannerheim 4y ago
      > or any other border adjacent country Must have missed the Russian invasion of Finland.
    - dandanua 4y ago
      Yes, terrorists can do exactly what they said to their victims, unless their demands are met. This doesn't make them "children persuaded to hurt themselves".
    - yks 4y ago
      Daily reminder that not only Americans have agency in this world. Even Putin had agency to not start the war. And Ukrainians have agency to pursue whatever means available to free themselves from Russian influence.
    - consumer451 4y ago
      Your argument is supporting the equivalent of telling a physically abused person: "if you call the cops, I will beat you more. Why are you making me hurt you?"
tzs 4y ago
> The assessment, which was shared with US government officials late last year, illustrates the extent of the problem facing the Biden administration, which has vowed to shut down Iran’s production of drones that Russia is launching by the hundreds into Ukraine. In a US with sane foreign policy this would be fairly easy. The US, with backing from Europe, would tell Iran "stop supplying Russia with drones or we are going to put major sanctions on you". Iran would look back to the sanctions there were placed on them over their nuclear weapons program, which were pretty severe, and remember how when they agreed to stop the weapons program and agreed to international inspections for verification the sanctions were lifted. They would not want to go back to that, and would know that the US will be reasonable if Iran complies and quickly lift sanctions, decide helping Russia isn't worth going back to those US/EU sanctions, and stop supplying drones. But we have a US where after the US lifted the nuclear sanctions it changed its mind and reimposed them. So now (A) the US no longer has imposing sanctions on Iran as a tool to persuade them on new issues, and (B) Iran (and everyone else) has no reason to believe the US when it says sanctions over any particular thing will actually be lifted if the sanctioned country makes the changes the US wants.
- politician 4y ago
  Iran is still under various sanctions. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/iran-sanctions https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/... The Iran Sanctions FAQ is also quite helpful. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/topic/1551 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    Not by the Europeans it’s not. When Trump reimposed sanctions over Iran’s nuclear program most of the Europeans pulled out because it looked like everyone but Trump was working in good faith.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  Yeah. Trump and the right really fucked America’s ability to negotiate with hostile nations. Not sure how we ever get out of this mess unless we structurally reform our constitution to require more oversight for doing stuff like that.
seydor 4y ago
The same happened with turkish drones in the war of Azerbaijan. A bunch of companies stopped their exports of parts that were used in weapons https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-calls-canada-review-defence-industry-restrictions-2021-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-calls-canad... https://defbrief.com/2020/11/06/garmin-condemns-use-of-its-products-in-turkish-combat-uas/ https://defbrief.com/2020/11/06/garmin-condemns-use-of-its-p...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Then Turkey switched to using home grown parts.
yread 4y ago
Compared to the Israeli-made military-grade IR camera with optics good for 20km range that the Mohajer drone this is small potatoes
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  How do you define the "range" of a camera? I thought the quality of an optical system came down to it's resolution and its freedom from aberration. If I'm not mistaken, it's not hard to achieve "perfect" optical resolution (1/2 a wavelength of light?). Mitigating aberration is done with stacks of lenses with different refractive indices, which requires a specialist glassmaker. But Russia has specialist glassmakers. I don't think it's possible to achieve complete freedom from aberration, but I don't know.
  - yread 4y ago
    I don't know how do they calculate it but they specify it on the product page: https://www.ophiropt.com/infrared/ https://www.ophiropt.com/infrared/ Ranges of identification, recognition and detection.
LatteLazy 4y ago
Turns out it's really easy to pass a law and really hard to actually enforce it especially when you don't want to and the result of enforcement would be really unpopular...
severino 4y ago
It sounds like it's only morally correct to use parts from those US companies in drones killing civilians in Afghanistan, Syria, etc.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> ranging from smaller equipment like semiconductors and GPS modules to larger parts like engines The Shahed-136 uses an MD-550 piston engine, according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 It was apparently developed by Limbach, Germany. Now the MD550 engines are made in China. https://www.militarydrones.org.cn/md-550-engine-price-p00583p1.html https://www.militarydrones.org.cn/md-550-engine-price-p00583... So the drones' engines don't appear to have anything to do with any US manufacturer, and even if they did, Iran could buy them from China. Good luck with sanctioning those.
tshadley 4y ago
The context missed by the article is that Iranian drones are crude, low-tech, and cheap by most military standards, hence, made with only the cheapest and most widely available parts. The article below estimates the Shahed-136 at $20,000. The Mohajer-6 probably isn't that much more. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-iranian-made-killer-drones-vying-for-supremacy-in-ukrainian-skies/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-iranian-made-killer-drones... But that's the economic-warfare genius of cheap drones: it [might] cost as much $500,000 to shoot down a $20,000 drone. https://www.businessinsider.com/suicide-drones-much-cheaper-launch-than-shoot-down-ukraine-nyt-2023-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/suicide-drones-much-cheaper-...
- leg0m4n 4y ago
  They are currently mostly using machine guns mounted on LAT to shoot down Shaheds + tuned the detection system to figure out their location(crowdsourcing through app). That's why Iranian drones kinda stopped being a problem at all recently. And other valuable weaponry is spent more wisely rn.
  - rainworld 4y ago
    Ukrainians claiming something doesn’t make it true. The effects speak for themselves. Here's an example of “air defense doing it's job” that somehow ends with an explosion on the ground and lights going out: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1610326116757114880 https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1610326116757114880
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      That video literally shows nearly a dozen objects being blown up. Yes, one makes it through and causes damage. No air defense is 100% unfortunately. It also shows how shitty Russia is, continuing to bomb Kyiv when it's far from any military objective. And shows why we need to expedite Ukraine's victory.
      - rainworld 4y ago
squarefoot 4y ago
I'm pretty sure they can analyze those parts to find where they originated from, their date of manufacturing, then draw a line from the fab to the buyer. Digital parts can have internal serial numbers readable with reserved instructions, as for analog ones I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't very subtle differences in their manufacturing (material composition, tolerances?) that could be used to identify at least roughly where they originated from and a list of potential buyers.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
Why do we keep calling these attack drones. They're very slow cruise missiles.
kube-system 4y ago
This isn’t surprising at all. General commercial or industrial parts aren’t highly controlled around the world. Even if the US has export restrictions, many other places don’t. There are plenty of middlemen more than happy to sell these parts at a premium to make a buck.
Balgair 4y ago
Meta comment: A lot of commenters are mentioning that Iran is simply using very common parts. I think that's missing the wider context that Iran was only recently eclipsed by Russia as the most sanctioned country on Earth. Going a step deeper, it's not that the parts are common in our globalized world, it's how Iran managed to get them, who supplied them, why Iran is choosing to use sell these limited and expensive parts (relative to global norm), and how that can be mitigated. I tried to find a list of specific parts that would fall under the sanctions, but, ho-boy, that is a deep dive into procurement and sourcing.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  A lot of people are assuming that because the US and Europe -- e.g. the collective "West" -- is sanctioning Iran, then the whole world is, and so there is shock and confusion about how Iran can buy very common parts on the global market, when in reality it just calls up Alibaba and gets whatever it wants like everyone else. If China, India, Russia, Brazil, the OPEC nations, Latin America, etc are not sanctioning you, then you are not going to have any trouble obtaining widely available parts. And even things like replacement engines for jet aircraft -- Iran has a domestic airlines and they are able to obtain parts for that, too. I think the reason why this obvious truism keeps surprising people is that deep down, they are really convinced that the West is the whole world, and so western sanctions are assumed to always be global sanctions, and then people ask questions like "How can Iran have a domestic airline industry if no one is selling them parts? How can Iran possibly make drones? Satellites? Missiles? Gas Turbines?" Etc. It's a big multipolar world, and very little stuff is actually made in the West. Most stuff is made in Asia and sold globally, and the vast majority of the world and the world's markets are doing business with Iran.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    The title of the article is "A single Iranian attack drone found to contain parts from more than a dozen US companies." The concern therein expressed is the perception that US companies are helping Iranians provide weapons to slaughter civilians. I think people understand that Iranians can buy their toys from other countries.
miguelazo 4y ago
Yet another reminder that sanctions are useless, and only really hurt the general population. Collective punishment = war crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
- politician 4y ago
  This isn't a reminder that sanctions are useless. It's evidence of a crime that needs to be investigated and charges filed against the companies involved.
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    Spoken like a true politician! Not only are the sanctions illegal by many international laws (and frankly, even domestic law considering how freedom of speech has been interpreted by the Supreme Court, to say the least), they fail to prevent the activity that supposedly justifies them. Meanwhile, the general population cannot get medicine and basic goods needed to have a decent life. A true crime against humanity. Especially absurd in the case of Iran, which entered a formal deal with the US in exchange for sanctions relief, only to have a subsequent administration scrap it because it didn't like it, all the while Iran holding up its end of the bargain.
m4rtink 4y ago
This kinda reminds me of War with the Newts from Karel Čapek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_with_the_Newts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_with_the_Newts "War with the Newts (Válka s Mloky in the original Czech), also translated as Salamander Wars, is a 1936 satirical science fiction novel by Czech author Karel Čapek. It concerns the discovery in the Pacific of a sea-dwelling race, an intelligent breed of newts, who are initially enslaved and exploited. They acquire human knowledge and rebel, leading to a global war for supremacy." The Newts use explosives to demolish land, creating more of the shallow sea they prefer to live in & they also use poisonous gases and other weapons against the humans. And all the time, there are at least some humans who sell them explosives, chemicals or arms to make a quick buck. The only thing that saves the remainders of humanity in the end is that the Newts eventually start fighting each other and wipe themselves out...
- rasz 4y ago
  Sci-Fi Short Film: "Good Business" | Throwback Thursday | DUST https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiXVXIQvo8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiXVXIQvo8E
rasz 4y ago
Civilian parts, meanwhile ru tanks and helicopters are equipped in post 2014 French Thales military grate systems (ir/thermal). ru Orlan drones fly French Lynred 640x480@120Hz microbolometers. Where is the investigation into that? Where are arrest of Thales/Lynred executives? They sold military parts breaking post Crimean embargo. https://lynred.com/sites/default/files/2021-07/PICO640GEN2%20Datasheet.pdf https://lynred.com/sites/default/files/2021-07/PICO640GEN2%2... https://www.barrons.com/news/france-s-thales-accused-of-selling-to-russia-despite-sanctions-01650654607 https://www.barrons.com/news/france-s-thales-accused-of-sell... Article about corrupted ru initiative to build homegrown microbolometers that somehow despite stealing hundreds of millions still managed to secure supply of French sensors. https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/8252-secret-deals-undermined-tech-firm-working-for-russian-military https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/8252-secret-deals-un...

209 points by ironyman 4y ago

It would be a lot scarier if they didn't. This means Iran (and Russia) does not have the capability to build these things without western components.

p1esk 4y ago
It is actually far scarier that they are able to bypass any sanctions and buy everything they need to make weapons. And it seems US government can’t do much about it.
- k__ 4y ago
  Question is if this is on purpose.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  Should be easy enough to fix: 5 SANCT Pull this pin high if you're using this product in a sanctioned country or product
  - zinekeller 4y ago
    That's the hardware equivalent of the evil bit (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3514.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3514.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_bit).
    - ot 4y ago
      That's the joke
      - brookst 4y ago
        It’s funny because it pretends to assume that wrongdoers will closely follow the instructions even to their own detriment.
    - planede 4y ago
      The bit field is laid out as follows: 0 +-+ |E| +-+ I had a good laugh at this.
- purkka 4y ago
  As long as these are commonly available components, made in the millions, it's absolutely impossible to stop Russia and Iran from sourcing the thousands they need.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    Particularly given that these seem to be fairly low tech devices that a modellist could probably put together.
  - tyho 4y ago
    Indeed, the microcontroller pictured in the article seems to be a fairly unremarkable DSP from TI: https://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28335 https://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28335. I can buy them from over a dozen online stores in the uk for around £20 a piece.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Those components are mostly dual-use and not that exciting. And they probably don't get as many of them as they like, and they have to design around their lack of access. All of that already imposes costs on them, which is felt in the drones being more expensive and less capable than otherwise possible.
- nverno 4y ago
  > the microchips and other small devices ending up in so many of the Iranian and Russian drones are not only inexpensive and widely available, they are also easily hidden. I think the fact they can bypass sanctions to get these sorts of parts is expected- after all, they are the ones securing their borders. The OP is right, it would be more worrisome from a military perspective if they further had the capabilities to produce all this themselves.
warinukraine 4y ago
My thoughts exactly. Solving (or mitigating) the "they're bypassing sanctions" problem is easier than the "they can manufacture everything then need" problem.
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>This means Iran (and Russia) does not have the capability to build these things without western components. Not necessarily - could just be cheaper to buy them from a middleman in China.

29athrowaway 4y ago

[flagged]

Ygg2 4y ago
What do you mean? Shah was installed by the US and got overthrown by protests only for current radical clerics to take control.
dboreham 4y ago
"installed by" in a fairly indirect way though, right? (by first installing the Shah who then caused a revolution, leading to the current regime coming to power very much against US wishes and interests).
- ttyprintk 4y ago
  You’re giving too much benefit of the doubt to their analysis. We shouldn’t have to redefine the word “installed” to make their pieces fit.
- chimprich 4y ago
  The US / UK coup in the 50s overthrew a democratically-elected leader to install a puppet regime. The subsequent revolution was to a large extent a backlash against imperialism. "Installed by" may not be accurate, but that the current regime is in power is largely a consequence of Western actions. I think Western policy towards Iran has been an absolute disaster in just about any measurement you can think of: global security, regional stability, the Iranian people.
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  Sure. We want the grain the sparrows are eating! We need to kill the sparrows so there is more grain to eat! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
bayesian_horse 4y ago
They are working on the technology to build nukes and intercontinental missiles. They stir up trouble in the middle-east all the time, bringing your allies and US interests at danger. They threaten to blockade the street of Hormuz which a lot of your goods travel through. They supply weapons to players that want to hurt US citizens elsewhere, sometimes even on US soil. They provide assistance to North Korea and Russia. There are probably more reasons why you should care...

tgflynn 4y ago

Trying to prevent common cheap components that almost anyone in the world can order online from falling into the hands of adversaries is a lost cause. It would require shutting down over half the economy and instituting a draconian and virtually totalitarian control regime. The Biden administration seems to be playing from a 1960's era playbook that makes zero sense in the 21st century.

arcticfox 4y ago
This is a shallow take IMO; the idea of sanctions are to add enough friction to hurt, not to be able to completely throttle an adversary. Spending time trying to fund and manage black market networks, raiding recycling centers, buying and dismantling washing machines for chips etc. is all time that the Russians aren't putting towards streamlining cruise missile production.
- tgflynn 4y ago
  The level of hardship imposed is going to be minimal once the black market structures are in place. These kinds of sanctions may have had an effect in the first few months of the war but that effect has probably vanished to practically nothing by now. At the same time sanctions and export restrictions impose costs on the US and its allies. Those costs aren't worth it if the restrictions aren't themselves effective, which they almost certainly won't be for common off the shelf components.
  - politician 4y ago
    That criminals break laws and crimes require investigation and prosecution which are activities that have associated expenses is not new. You have to remember that both investigation and prosecution involve a large amount of discretion, so the cost of the sanctions regime is dynamic and variable. Enforcement can put a small effort against low-value components and put a large effort into violations of high-value components. If the small effort put against low-value components deters some activity, then the goals of the sanctions regime are furthered.
4y ago

treis 4y ago

These aren't really "from" the US companies. They're commodity parts that US & other Western companies design that are manufactured in Asia and sold around the world. The parts are used way too widely to be tracked in any meaningful way.

PedroBatista 4y ago
Can you provide the list of the actual parts?
- treis 4y ago
  Can't seem to find it with a brief google search. But a story like this came out ~6 months ago and the components were all off the shelf microprocessors, sensors, and similar electronics.
capableweb 4y ago
Seems like the article disagrees with you, do you have a more reliable source for what you're saying? > Of the 52 components Ukrainians removed from the Iranian Shahed-136 drone, 40 appear to have been manufactured by 13 different American companies, according to the assessment. > The remaining 12 components were manufactured by companies in Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Taiwan, and China, according to the assessment. > According to the Ukrainian assessment, among the US-made components found in the drone were nearly two dozen parts built by Texas Instruments, including microcontrollers, voltage regulators, and digital signal controllers; a GPS module by Hemisphere GNSS; a microprocessor by NXP USA Inc.; and circuit board components by Analog Devices and Onsemi. Also discovered were components built by International Rectifier – now owned by the German company Infineon – and the Swiss company U-Blox. So less than 12 of the components were manufactured in Asia, while 40 have been manufactured by US companies. The article also finishes by linking together components with US companies who seem (at a glance / without digging deeper) to manufacture said components within US borders.
- waihtis 4y ago
  I live in Finland, and Russians have been found looting electronics from the recycling centers over here, supposedly because they need the components back in the motherland. So theoretically they are also using western components but it is not like anyone actually sold these components to the russians.

robomartin 4y ago

Took a quick look. I didn't see a list of components or a link to that list. My guess is these are comercial grade components (as opposed to industrial or military grade). This might mean they are susceptible to forms of attacks higher grade components will survive. In other words, they are not "hardened" (a term that has a range of meanings). Another way to put it might be that they are relatively easy to disrupt and shoot down through means other than kinetic countermeasures.

bjt2n3904 4y ago
Another comment has a list here. GPS modules and microcontrollers are about as fancy as it gets. They listed (gasp) power supply regulators, and chips from Analog Devices that I presume to be OpAmps or similar.
denton-scratch 4y ago
> Another way to put it might be that they are relatively easy to disrupt and shoot down through means other than kinetic countermeasures. Ukraine has been achieving very high shoot-down rates on Shahed-136 drones. The Russians have to launch them in big swarms to have a hope of getting any of them through. The drones use a piston engine designed for model airoplanes, driving a pusher propellor. Apparently its top speed is about 135mph. It looks like a jet, with its delta wings; but I'd guess you could shoot one down with a rifle.

duxup 4y ago

> There is no evidence suggesting that any of those companies are running afoul of US sanctions laws and knowingly exporting their technology to be used in the drones Sounds like just standard parts rather than sensitive equipment.

Workaccount2 4y ago
Looking at the list its just generic electronics parts that are using in everything the world over.
sn_master 4y ago
Rules are made to cause trouble for the average law-abiding citizen, but have almost no effect on actual criminals. e.g when you buy an AR magazine online (just a piece of cheap plastic and a single spring all there is) it says very clearly these are not to be exported outside the US. If you're a lawful citizen and by mistake take one to the airport and get caught with it, would be a lot of trouble, but criminals will just ignore than warning, buy a few hundreds and smuggle them through land or sea no problem. If these components were allowed to be purchased by civilians without a specialized license, then the companies can't really be blamed for it. There's no way to prevent things like that from being smuggled abroad.
- mannerheim 4y ago
  People do get caught for smuggling export-controlled goods. Some Russians were caught a few years ago for trying to export a few night-vision goggles (around 20 or so?). You could probably smuggle out a couple dozen from the consumer market, but hard to do so in higher quantities (enough to outfit a military) without attracting attention. Russia has had issues with not having enough optics, so there's speculation that the Russian NODs for sale to American LARPers for years as milsurp might not have actually been surplus...
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > (around 20 or so?) So, literally nothing. That's small guys getting slapped for breaking rules. Wake me when France imprisons some Thales executives for selling thermal scopes to Russia (post-invasion!) By the way, the French government is the largest Thales shareholder.

Havoc 4y ago

So the global supply chain is global? Doesn't seem all that surprising that single use drones are being built from readily available parts.

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

The US has been shipping refuse to China for quite some time for recycling. I have been to Shenzhen and there are millions of recycled electronic parts owned, manufactured, or distributed by American companies, including "semiconductors and GPS modules". What is the likelihood that these parts are mostly recycled?

tzs 4y ago
I doubt that Iran needs to use recycled parts. Most of the components specifically mentioned in the article are things that are common in most electronic devices. They are generally unrestricted and there is no tracking done of who buys them or what they are going to use them for. The only limit on buying them is when the buyer and seller happen to be in different countries that have some sort of general trade restriction between them such as sanctions. These are the countries that Iran has over $1B/year in imports from: China, UAE, India, Turkey, Germany, Switzerland, South Korea, Russia, Italy, UK, Netherlands, and France. As far as I know there are no restrictions on US companies selling these components to buyers or distributors in at least 2/3 of those countries. Iran can probably just order from distributors in many of them, or have someone in one of those countries buy the components and ship them to Iran. Keeping these components out of Iran is about as difficult as keeping something like nails from a US company or USB cables from a US company out of Iran.
- dmix 4y ago
  Indeed, US sanctions can only increase the costs and lower access to advanced high end tech of domestic Iran defence industry. This still has serious consequences, especially long term and extends well beyond the miltary... Even if the miscellaneous run of the mill electronics aren't controllable.
kube-system 4y ago
We ship brand new parts to China too. No need for recycled parts.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

balticthrow 4y ago

[flagged]

desireco42 4y ago

And in those US parts there were Chinese parts... There is a huge anti-globalization wave. To me, this is just slow day at CNN.

NathanielBaking 4y ago

Looking for better information on exactly what components were on the board I found these references: contains many references to pictures and such. https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/iranian-drones-in-ukraine-contain-western-brand-components https://isis-online.org/isis-reports/detail/iranian-drones-i... Most remarkably https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1577619774292606976 https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1577619774292606976 I think to understand the problem you need to see a list of components that are being used but also to understand that substitution is relatively easy in today's world of cross platform embedded systems. I have ordered many of these boards from places like DigiKey and Mouser. Here is on example: https://os.mbed.com/platforms/ https://os.mbed.com/platforms/ Many of these boards are capable of providing the flight control systems for these drones.

uhtred 4y ago

[flagged]

pjc50 4y ago
Reminder that this was entirely initiated by Russia, which is the country that needs to make a meaningful peace proposal such as returning to the status quo ante bellum.
- polartx 4y ago
  If an adult persuaded a child to stick their finger in a mousetrap, the resulting injury wouldn’t be entirely owed to said mousetrap. Like it or not, Putin did exactly what he said he would do should Ukraine (or any other border adjacent country), attempt to join NATO. What changed is that our sitting President encouraged Ukraine’s to go for it, where past presidents discouraged poking the bear.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    > or any other border adjacent country Must have missed the Russian invasion of Finland.
  - dandanua 4y ago
    Yes, terrorists can do exactly what they said to their victims, unless their demands are met. This doesn't make them "children persuaded to hurt themselves".
  - yks 4y ago
    Daily reminder that not only Americans have agency in this world. Even Putin had agency to not start the war. And Ukrainians have agency to pursue whatever means available to free themselves from Russian influence.
  - consumer451 4y ago
    Your argument is supporting the equivalent of telling a physically abused person: "if you call the cops, I will beat you more. Why are you making me hurt you?"

tzs 4y ago

> The assessment, which was shared with US government officials late last year, illustrates the extent of the problem facing the Biden administration, which has vowed to shut down Iran’s production of drones that Russia is launching by the hundreds into Ukraine. In a US with sane foreign policy this would be fairly easy. The US, with backing from Europe, would tell Iran "stop supplying Russia with drones or we are going to put major sanctions on you". Iran would look back to the sanctions there were placed on them over their nuclear weapons program, which were pretty severe, and remember how when they agreed to stop the weapons program and agreed to international inspections for verification the sanctions were lifted. They would not want to go back to that, and would know that the US will be reasonable if Iran complies and quickly lift sanctions, decide helping Russia isn't worth going back to those US/EU sanctions, and stop supplying drones. But we have a US where after the US lifted the nuclear sanctions it changed its mind and reimposed them. So now (A) the US no longer has imposing sanctions on Iran as a tool to persuade them on new issues, and (B) Iran (and everyone else) has no reason to believe the US when it says sanctions over any particular thing will actually be lifted if the sanctioned country makes the changes the US wants.

politician 4y ago
Iran is still under various sanctions. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/sanctions-programs-and-country-information/iran-sanctions https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/... The Iran Sanctions FAQ is also quite helpful. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/topic/1551 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...
- vlovich123 4y ago
  Not by the Europeans it’s not. When Trump reimposed sanctions over Iran’s nuclear program most of the Europeans pulled out because it looked like everyone but Trump was working in good faith.
vlovich123 4y ago
Yeah. Trump and the right really fucked America’s ability to negotiate with hostile nations. Not sure how we ever get out of this mess unless we structurally reform our constitution to require more oversight for doing stuff like that.

seydor 4y ago

The same happened with turkish drones in the war of Azerbaijan. A bunch of companies stopped their exports of parts that were used in weapons https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-calls-canada-review-defence-industry-restrictions-2021-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-calls-canad... https://defbrief.com/2020/11/06/garmin-condemns-use-of-its-products-in-turkish-combat-uas/ https://defbrief.com/2020/11/06/garmin-condemns-use-of-its-p...

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Then Turkey switched to using home grown parts.

yread 4y ago

Compared to the Israeli-made military-grade IR camera with optics good for 20km range that the Mohajer drone this is small potatoes

denton-scratch 4y ago
How do you define the "range" of a camera? I thought the quality of an optical system came down to it's resolution and its freedom from aberration. If I'm not mistaken, it's not hard to achieve "perfect" optical resolution (1/2 a wavelength of light?). Mitigating aberration is done with stacks of lenses with different refractive indices, which requires a specialist glassmaker. But Russia has specialist glassmakers. I don't think it's possible to achieve complete freedom from aberration, but I don't know.
- yread 4y ago
  I don't know how do they calculate it but they specify it on the product page: https://www.ophiropt.com/infrared/ https://www.ophiropt.com/infrared/ Ranges of identification, recognition and detection.

LatteLazy 4y ago

Turns out it's really easy to pass a law and really hard to actually enforce it especially when you don't want to and the result of enforcement would be really unpopular...

severino 4y ago

It sounds like it's only morally correct to use parts from those US companies in drones killing civilians in Afghanistan, Syria, etc.

denton-scratch 4y ago

> ranging from smaller equipment like semiconductors and GPS modules to larger parts like engines The Shahed-136 uses an MD-550 piston engine, according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 It was apparently developed by Limbach, Germany. Now the MD550 engines are made in China. https://www.militarydrones.org.cn/md-550-engine-price-p00583p1.html https://www.militarydrones.org.cn/md-550-engine-price-p00583... So the drones' engines don't appear to have anything to do with any US manufacturer, and even if they did, Iran could buy them from China. Good luck with sanctioning those.

tshadley 4y ago

The context missed by the article is that Iranian drones are crude, low-tech, and cheap by most military standards, hence, made with only the cheapest and most widely available parts. The article below estimates the Shahed-136 at $20,000. The Mohajer-6 probably isn't that much more. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-iranian-made-killer-drones-vying-for-supremacy-in-ukrainian-skies/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-iranian-made-killer-drones... But that's the economic-warfare genius of cheap drones: it [might] cost as much $500,000 to shoot down a $20,000 drone. https://www.businessinsider.com/suicide-drones-much-cheaper-launch-than-shoot-down-ukraine-nyt-2023-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/suicide-drones-much-cheaper-...

leg0m4n 4y ago
They are currently mostly using machine guns mounted on LAT to shoot down Shaheds + tuned the detection system to figure out their location(crowdsourcing through app). That's why Iranian drones kinda stopped being a problem at all recently. And other valuable weaponry is spent more wisely rn.
- rainworld 4y ago
  Ukrainians claiming something doesn’t make it true. The effects speak for themselves. Here's an example of “air defense doing it's job” that somehow ends with an explosion on the ground and lights going out: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1610326116757114880 https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1610326116757114880
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    That video literally shows nearly a dozen objects being blown up. Yes, one makes it through and causes damage. No air defense is 100% unfortunately. It also shows how shitty Russia is, continuing to bomb Kyiv when it's far from any military objective. And shows why we need to expedite Ukraine's victory.
    - rainworld 4y ago

squarefoot 4y ago

I'm pretty sure they can analyze those parts to find where they originated from, their date of manufacturing, then draw a line from the fab to the buyer. Digital parts can have internal serial numbers readable with reserved instructions, as for analog ones I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't very subtle differences in their manufacturing (material composition, tolerances?) that could be used to identify at least roughly where they originated from and a list of potential buyers.

throwawaymaths 4y ago

Why do we keep calling these attack drones. They're very slow cruise missiles.

kube-system 4y ago

This isn’t surprising at all. General commercial or industrial parts aren’t highly controlled around the world. Even if the US has export restrictions, many other places don’t. There are plenty of middlemen more than happy to sell these parts at a premium to make a buck.

Balgair 4y ago

Meta comment: A lot of commenters are mentioning that Iran is simply using very common parts. I think that's missing the wider context that Iran was only recently eclipsed by Russia as the most sanctioned country on Earth. Going a step deeper, it's not that the parts are common in our globalized world, it's how Iran managed to get them, who supplied them, why Iran is choosing to use sell these limited and expensive parts (relative to global norm), and how that can be mitigated. I tried to find a list of specific parts that would fall under the sanctions, but, ho-boy, that is a deep dive into procurement and sourcing.

rsj_hn 4y ago
A lot of people are assuming that because the US and Europe -- e.g. the collective "West" -- is sanctioning Iran, then the whole world is, and so there is shock and confusion about how Iran can buy very common parts on the global market, when in reality it just calls up Alibaba and gets whatever it wants like everyone else. If China, India, Russia, Brazil, the OPEC nations, Latin America, etc are not sanctioning you, then you are not going to have any trouble obtaining widely available parts. And even things like replacement engines for jet aircraft -- Iran has a domestic airlines and they are able to obtain parts for that, too. I think the reason why this obvious truism keeps surprising people is that deep down, they are really convinced that the West is the whole world, and so western sanctions are assumed to always be global sanctions, and then people ask questions like "How can Iran have a domestic airline industry if no one is selling them parts? How can Iran possibly make drones? Satellites? Missiles? Gas Turbines?" Etc. It's a big multipolar world, and very little stuff is actually made in the West. Most stuff is made in Asia and sold globally, and the vast majority of the world and the world's markets are doing business with Iran.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  The title of the article is "A single Iranian attack drone found to contain parts from more than a dozen US companies." The concern therein expressed is the perception that US companies are helping Iranians provide weapons to slaughter civilians. I think people understand that Iranians can buy their toys from other countries.

miguelazo 4y ago

Yet another reminder that sanctions are useless, and only really hurt the general population. Collective punishment = war crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

politician 4y ago
This isn't a reminder that sanctions are useless. It's evidence of a crime that needs to be investigated and charges filed against the companies involved.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Spoken like a true politician! Not only are the sanctions illegal by many international laws (and frankly, even domestic law considering how freedom of speech has been interpreted by the Supreme Court, to say the least), they fail to prevent the activity that supposedly justifies them. Meanwhile, the general population cannot get medicine and basic goods needed to have a decent life. A true crime against humanity. Especially absurd in the case of Iran, which entered a formal deal with the US in exchange for sanctions relief, only to have a subsequent administration scrap it because it didn't like it, all the while Iran holding up its end of the bargain.

m4rtink 4y ago

This kinda reminds me of War with the Newts from Karel Čapek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_with_the_Newts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_with_the_Newts "War with the Newts (Válka s Mloky in the original Czech), also translated as Salamander Wars, is a 1936 satirical science fiction novel by Czech author Karel Čapek. It concerns the discovery in the Pacific of a sea-dwelling race, an intelligent breed of newts, who are initially enslaved and exploited. They acquire human knowledge and rebel, leading to a global war for supremacy." The Newts use explosives to demolish land, creating more of the shallow sea they prefer to live in & they also use poisonous gases and other weapons against the humans. And all the time, there are at least some humans who sell them explosives, chemicals or arms to make a quick buck. The only thing that saves the remainders of humanity in the end is that the Newts eventually start fighting each other and wipe themselves out...

rasz 4y ago
Sci-Fi Short Film: "Good Business" | Throwback Thursday | DUST https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiXVXIQvo8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiXVXIQvo8E

rasz 4y ago

Civilian parts, meanwhile ru tanks and helicopters are equipped in post 2014 French Thales military grate systems (ir/thermal). ru Orlan drones fly French Lynred 640x480@120Hz microbolometers. Where is the investigation into that? Where are arrest of Thales/Lynred executives? They sold military parts breaking post Crimean embargo. https://lynred.com/sites/default/files/2021-07/PICO640GEN2%20Datasheet.pdf https://lynred.com/sites/default/files/2021-07/PICO640GEN2%2... https://www.barrons.com/news/france-s-thales-accused-of-selling-to-russia-despite-sanctions-01650654607 https://www.barrons.com/news/france-s-thales-accused-of-sell... Article about corrupted ru initiative to build homegrown microbolometers that somehow despite stealing hundreds of millions still managed to secure supply of French sensors. https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/8252-secret-deals-undermined-tech-firm-working-for-russian-military https://www.occrp.org/en/investigations/8252-secret-deals-un...