10 ms·

Walkie Talkie architect 'didn't realise it was going to be so hot' (2013)

58 points by mdp2021 4y ago

mdp2021 4y ago
The "Walkie Talkie" skyscraper in London - that near the "Gherkin" in the skyline, with characteristic fluid bulging shape -, is an ustorious mirror capable of frying food (if you are lucky) in the exposed steets. Note this impressive quote from the Architect, Rafael Viñoly: > "When it was spotted on a second design iteration, we judged the temperature was going to be about 36 degrees," he said. "But it's turned out to be more like 72 degrees. They are calling it the 'death ray', because if you go there you might die. It is phenomenal, this thing."
- lelandfe 4y ago
  > ustorious This is such an obscure word that your comment is already in the Google results for it. Kudos: https://i.imgur.com/tGgrIaZ.png https://i.imgur.com/tGgrIaZ.png
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    I would have gladly found a precise reference, but time presses: it may be resonant for some classic passage describing the engineering of Archimedes of war machines, especially during the Second Punic War (~212 BC) when Syracuse allied with Chartago against Rome, and had to defend from the siege led by Marcellus. Optical devices to set distant things on fire were part of the defence. So, a nuance intended was: that building would normally had been planned as a war machine...
  - gopkarthik 4y ago
    Found it in page-4 https://imgur.com/a/9MiiZUJ https://imgur.com/a/9MiiZUJ. I'm curious if you saw it in page-1?
    - OJFord 4y ago
      Not GP, but it's the sole entry on page 4 DDG for me; the first (and hence only) result of actual use, not definition or pronunciation guide.
      - lelandfe 4y ago
        https://books.google.com/books?id=7cIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22ustorious%22#v=onepage&q=%22ustorious%22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=7cIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=P... Another use! But yes, if you kill off the many, many dictionary results that HN comment is first page. E.g.: > "ustorious" -definition -dictionary -pronounce -spelling -rhyme
  - OJFord 4y ago
    And wonderfully apt, not just any old obscure (Wiktionary says obsolete actually, but surely that only takes this single counter-example...) word thrown in on a whim.
- dkarl 4y ago
  He had already made this mistake once before, and yet it had to be "spotted" by somebody on the "second design iteration?" What a clown. Any reasonable person, knowing they were designing a building with the same unusual feature that caused this problem before, would have put it on every list of technical risks from the beginning of the project.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    I get the feeling that it may even have been deliberate. no one died or even got hurt, and none of us would have heard of the guy if it wasn’t for this
    - dkarl 4y ago
      I don't think this kind of publicity is good for that kind of career, but I guess there are people who want fame for its own sake.
bitsavers 4y ago
2013, but this story never gets old. And it isn't the first time the architect did this.
- trynewideas 4y ago
  > His Vdara hotel in Las Vegas, with a similarly concave form, focused sunlight onto the pool terrace in 2010, hot enough to melt loungers and singe guests' hair. The glass has since been covered in non-reflective film. > "That was a completely different problem," said Viñoly, insisting he was following a masterplan that specified arc-shaped towers. "We pointed out that would be an issue too, but who cares if you fry somebody in Las Vegas, right?"
  - ajkjk 4y ago
    I guess I agree. Not that that makes it okay.
- riedel 4y ago
  In case anyone wonders about the resolution: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2786723/London-skyscraper-Walkie-Talkie-melted-cars-reflecting-sunlight-fitted-shading.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2786723/London-skys...
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Other sources for everyone's enjoyment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_The_Dreaded_Death_Ray_Controlling_Facade_Reflections_Through_Purposeful_Design https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_...
  - Sakos 4y ago
    > ‘Customers are not going to come in if there is a fire in the front of the door.’ Big if true.
4RealFreedom 4y ago
"I knew this was going to happen," but he didn't do anything about it? Irresponsible at best.
- Arnt 4y ago
  Do you happen to be a programmer whose code has had similar bugs twice? If so, do you consider yourself "irresponsible at best"?
  - 4RealFreedom 4y ago
    This wasn't a bug. It was designed with the properties and the builder knew it would happen. It also causes physical damage. Minimize this all you want but irresponsible is going easy.
    - Arnt 4y ago
      It was designed to have curved glassy surfaces. Both curves and glass are used a lot in modern architecture, for many reasons and "because it focuses the sun" isn't one of them. Combining glass and curves has been rare because it's technically difficult to build large curved glass. They were hardly ever combined until 1850, and it's still difficult today, 170 years after Crystal Palace. It's done though. Buildings go through review, which is rather like code review, and the review finds problems, and some slip through. In the case of this building the architect ordered a second review, where the bug was spotted and its consequences computed and found to be acceptable. (This is something engineers do all the time. When I had a hole made in a wall at home, a structural engineer computed how much the floor would sag and found it to be acceptable.) I'm guessing that the second review was carried out precisely because the architect wanted to be careful about those curved surfaces. Of course you can pretend that the curves were built in order to focus light and blame people for it. In that case you should accept that people blame you, too.
      - Beltalowda 4y ago
        > Of course you can pretend that the curves were built in order to focus light and blame people for it. No one said anything of the sort and I cannot conceive how anyone could possible think that they did.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> The developers have blamed the problem on "the current elevation of the sun in the sky," a position Viñoly seems inclined to share. > "When I first came to London years ago, it wasn't like this," he said. "Now you have all these sunny days. So you should blame this thing on global warming too, right?" This really is turning obsessive-compulsive responsibility avoidance into a form of performance art.
- amelius 4y ago
  Even if there was only 1 sunny day a year, it would still be a problem.
- smcl 4y ago
  [flagged]
- sdiacom 4y ago
  ... do they think that climate change changed the sun's elevation?
- bell-cot 4y ago
  > ...blame...the sun in the sky... And if the building collapsed due to defective design & construction, they'd be blaming the "who could have imagined?" gravity, right? There's a point of irresponsibility where I really wish that the courts would open inquiries into the mental competence of the reality-deniers. With "you could be legally declared mentally incompetent, and committed to an institution for life" at stake.
- imgabe 4y ago
  It's not like the elevation of the sun in the sky at any given date and time could be predicted or anything.
- rozab 4y ago
  These quotes, at different times by different people, have been juxtaposed to make it seem like the developers are associating the elevation of the sun with climate change. Here's the quote in a more honest context, explaining why they expect the phenomenon to subside shortly https://www.ft.com/content/82196b28-13ec-11e3-9289-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/82196b28-13ec-11e3-9289-00144feab...
pvaldes 4y ago
So, If I had understood it correctly, this is the same man designing a cancer research building in California while burning human ants in Las Vegas, right? Workers in those buildings are fired and fried in the same step it seems On the other hand, this system could be handy to clean ice and snow in particular points on the roads. Hum... Chicago should build a lot of those and uncover it in winter
VMG 4y ago
> But it was this week renamed the Walkie Scorchie Laughed out loud at this one
Thorentis 4y ago
Maybe London should stop allowing "architects" to design these modern mostroserties, and instead design classical buildings that will both stand the test of time and... not burn things.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Awful idea and quite reactionary. There’s no reason to design buildings that look like old buildings unless you’re doing a renovation. We have different materials that allow us to build to heights we couldn’t before. We lack the craftsmen to build authentic facades from that era so we’d end up with ignorant pastiches of old buildings. Tastefully intermingling the old with the new is difficult to do at times but the results are magnificent. See The Louvre for example.
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    Tastefully intermingling the old with the new is exactly what isn't happening. I don't think a return to the classics is the answer, but some cities manage to handle modernism without clashing with tradition, and London very much isn't one of them. Worse, these buildings are going to have a very limited working life compared to the older architecture around them. A century is optimistic.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      The Walkie Talkie isn’t great and it sort of lacks dignity for London’s skyline. But I think other recent structures such as city hall, the shard, and the gherkin all work.
- orwin 4y ago
  Also since the late 2000, regular architect do a real good job designing "classic" mid-rise buildings with terrace and enough light in all apartments that : - Are well insulated, - Are nice to live in, - Take into account orientation (sun and stuff), - Are a lot better looking than the previous mid-rise buildings, with maybe the exception of old 19th century construction (this is a taste thing, i personnally dislike Haussman and Victorian style, but i like Le Baron Jenney). Which make "great" architects designs worse i think (by comparison).
Scubabear68 4y ago
This reminds me of 750 7th ave in NY. A lot of Morgan Stanley IT was (is?) houses there. Rumor had it the building design was copied from a building in Texas. The problem? The beautiful terraced glass surfaces had a tendency to pick up snow and ice in the winter, which as it melted would then tend to slide off the building and crash into the sidewalk below. After heavy snow storms they had to cordone off the sidewalks so pedestrians weren’t speared to by giant icicles falling from the sky. Lesson: environmental context matters in building design. But even big time architects can goof in big ways (see also the Citibank building debacle).
- Palomides 4y ago
  same issue with many buildings by frank gehry
dkarl 4y ago
> these are believed to have been removed during cost-cutting Fun fact: cost-cutting in architecture is called "value engineering," a sinister euphemism if I've ever heard one.
Lukas_Skywalker 4y ago
The shape apparently also creates a strong wind at street level, because air is channeled down the building. The building is also lovingly called the "Fryscraper" by the locals.
31337Logic 4y ago
"The architect has a track record of creating buildings that burn. His Vdara hotel in Las Vegas, with a similarly concave form, focused sunlight onto the pool terrace in 2010, hot enough to melt loungers and singe guests' hair."
- permo-w 4y ago
  "That was a completely different problem," said Viñoly, insisting he was following a masterplan that specified arc-shaped towers. "We pointed out that would be an issue too, but who cares if you fry somebody in Las Vegas, right?"
wnkrshm 4y ago
Maybe the endgame is to create a partially open subway station with a similarly concave design at the opposite site of the focus and then put a NdCrYAG crystal there... [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar-pumped_laser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar-pumped_laser
tiku 4y ago
I was hoping for an article about the invention of the real walkietalky..
djmips 4y ago
Here is a paper on the solution used on this building. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_The_Dreaded_Death_Ray_Controlling_Facade_Reflections_Through_Purposeful_Design https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_... And a link to a few simpler pictures - scroll through them to the right. https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/walkie-scorchie-solution-submitted-for-planning https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/walkie-scorchie-sol...
Stevvo 4y ago
"I knew this was going to happen" ... "But there was a lack of tools or software that could be used to analyse the problem accurately." It makes me think of ray-tracing. You would think an architect would already have a ray-tracer with accurate materials set up for rendering visualizations which could show the issue.
- fwipsy 4y ago
  You're right. It doesn't seem like a hard problem to solve. Surely the designers of those solar mirror arrays in the desert in California have software for this. If he knew it was going to happen but failed to analyze it properly, then this is his fault.

58 points by mdp2021 4y ago

mdp2021 4y ago

The "Walkie Talkie" skyscraper in London - that near the "Gherkin" in the skyline, with characteristic fluid bulging shape -, is an ustorious mirror capable of frying food (if you are lucky) in the exposed steets. Note this impressive quote from the Architect, Rafael Viñoly: > "When it was spotted on a second design iteration, we judged the temperature was going to be about 36 degrees," he said. "But it's turned out to be more like 72 degrees. They are calling it the 'death ray', because if you go there you might die. It is phenomenal, this thing."

lelandfe 4y ago
> ustorious This is such an obscure word that your comment is already in the Google results for it. Kudos: https://i.imgur.com/tGgrIaZ.png https://i.imgur.com/tGgrIaZ.png
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I would have gladly found a precise reference, but time presses: it may be resonant for some classic passage describing the engineering of Archimedes of war machines, especially during the Second Punic War (~212 BC) when Syracuse allied with Chartago against Rome, and had to defend from the siege led by Marcellus. Optical devices to set distant things on fire were part of the defence. So, a nuance intended was: that building would normally had been planned as a war machine...
- gopkarthik 4y ago
  Found it in page-4 https://imgur.com/a/9MiiZUJ https://imgur.com/a/9MiiZUJ. I'm curious if you saw it in page-1?
  - OJFord 4y ago
    Not GP, but it's the sole entry on page 4 DDG for me; the first (and hence only) result of actual use, not definition or pronunciation guide.
    - lelandfe 4y ago
      https://books.google.com/books?id=7cIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22ustorious%22#v=onepage&q=%22ustorious%22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=7cIXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=P... Another use! But yes, if you kill off the many, many dictionary results that HN comment is first page. E.g.: > "ustorious" -definition -dictionary -pronounce -spelling -rhyme
- OJFord 4y ago
  And wonderfully apt, not just any old obscure (Wiktionary says obsolete actually, but surely that only takes this single counter-example...) word thrown in on a whim.
dkarl 4y ago
He had already made this mistake once before, and yet it had to be "spotted" by somebody on the "second design iteration?" What a clown. Any reasonable person, knowing they were designing a building with the same unusual feature that caused this problem before, would have put it on every list of technical risks from the beginning of the project.
- permo-w 4y ago
  I get the feeling that it may even have been deliberate. no one died or even got hurt, and none of us would have heard of the guy if it wasn’t for this
  - dkarl 4y ago
    I don't think this kind of publicity is good for that kind of career, but I guess there are people who want fame for its own sake.

bitsavers 4y ago

2013, but this story never gets old. And it isn't the first time the architect did this.

trynewideas 4y ago
> His Vdara hotel in Las Vegas, with a similarly concave form, focused sunlight onto the pool terrace in 2010, hot enough to melt loungers and singe guests' hair. The glass has since been covered in non-reflective film. > "That was a completely different problem," said Viñoly, insisting he was following a masterplan that specified arc-shaped towers. "We pointed out that would be an issue too, but who cares if you fry somebody in Las Vegas, right?"
- ajkjk 4y ago
  I guess I agree. Not that that makes it okay.
riedel 4y ago
In case anyone wonders about the resolution: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2786723/London-skyscraper-Walkie-Talkie-melted-cars-reflecting-sunlight-fitted-shading.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2786723/London-skys...
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Other sources for everyone's enjoyment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_The_Dreaded_Death_Ray_Controlling_Facade_Reflections_Through_Purposeful_Design https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_...
- Sakos 4y ago
  > ‘Customers are not going to come in if there is a fire in the front of the door.’ Big if true.

4RealFreedom 4y ago

"I knew this was going to happen," but he didn't do anything about it? Irresponsible at best.

Arnt 4y ago
Do you happen to be a programmer whose code has had similar bugs twice? If so, do you consider yourself "irresponsible at best"?
- 4RealFreedom 4y ago
  This wasn't a bug. It was designed with the properties and the builder knew it would happen. It also causes physical damage. Minimize this all you want but irresponsible is going easy.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    It was designed to have curved glassy surfaces. Both curves and glass are used a lot in modern architecture, for many reasons and "because it focuses the sun" isn't one of them. Combining glass and curves has been rare because it's technically difficult to build large curved glass. They were hardly ever combined until 1850, and it's still difficult today, 170 years after Crystal Palace. It's done though. Buildings go through review, which is rather like code review, and the review finds problems, and some slip through. In the case of this building the architect ordered a second review, where the bug was spotted and its consequences computed and found to be acceptable. (This is something engineers do all the time. When I had a hole made in a wall at home, a structural engineer computed how much the floor would sag and found it to be acceptable.) I'm guessing that the second review was carried out precisely because the architect wanted to be careful about those curved surfaces. Of course you can pretend that the curves were built in order to focus light and blame people for it. In that case you should accept that people blame you, too.
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      > Of course you can pretend that the curves were built in order to focus light and blame people for it. No one said anything of the sort and I cannot conceive how anyone could possible think that they did.

Beltalowda 4y ago

> The developers have blamed the problem on "the current elevation of the sun in the sky," a position Viñoly seems inclined to share. > "When I first came to London years ago, it wasn't like this," he said. "Now you have all these sunny days. So you should blame this thing on global warming too, right?" This really is turning obsessive-compulsive responsibility avoidance into a form of performance art.

amelius 4y ago
Even if there was only 1 sunny day a year, it would still be a problem.
smcl 4y ago
[flagged]
sdiacom 4y ago
... do they think that climate change changed the sun's elevation?
bell-cot 4y ago
> ...blame...the sun in the sky... And if the building collapsed due to defective design & construction, they'd be blaming the "who could have imagined?" gravity, right? There's a point of irresponsibility where I really wish that the courts would open inquiries into the mental competence of the reality-deniers. With "you could be legally declared mentally incompetent, and committed to an institution for life" at stake.
imgabe 4y ago
It's not like the elevation of the sun in the sky at any given date and time could be predicted or anything.
rozab 4y ago
These quotes, at different times by different people, have been juxtaposed to make it seem like the developers are associating the elevation of the sun with climate change. Here's the quote in a more honest context, explaining why they expect the phenomenon to subside shortly https://www.ft.com/content/82196b28-13ec-11e3-9289-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/82196b28-13ec-11e3-9289-00144feab...

pvaldes 4y ago

So, If I had understood it correctly, this is the same man designing a cancer research building in California while burning human ants in Las Vegas, right? Workers in those buildings are fired and fried in the same step it seems On the other hand, this system could be handy to clean ice and snow in particular points on the roads. Hum... Chicago should build a lot of those and uncover it in winter

VMG 4y ago

> But it was this week renamed the Walkie Scorchie Laughed out loud at this one

Thorentis 4y ago

Maybe London should stop allowing "architects" to design these modern mostroserties, and instead design classical buildings that will both stand the test of time and... not burn things.

nemo44x 4y ago
Awful idea and quite reactionary. There’s no reason to design buildings that look like old buildings unless you’re doing a renovation. We have different materials that allow us to build to heights we couldn’t before. We lack the craftsmen to build authentic facades from that era so we’d end up with ignorant pastiches of old buildings. Tastefully intermingling the old with the new is difficult to do at times but the results are magnificent. See The Louvre for example.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  Tastefully intermingling the old with the new is exactly what isn't happening. I don't think a return to the classics is the answer, but some cities manage to handle modernism without clashing with tradition, and London very much isn't one of them. Worse, these buildings are going to have a very limited working life compared to the older architecture around them. A century is optimistic.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    The Walkie Talkie isn’t great and it sort of lacks dignity for London’s skyline. But I think other recent structures such as city hall, the shard, and the gherkin all work.
orwin 4y ago
Also since the late 2000, regular architect do a real good job designing "classic" mid-rise buildings with terrace and enough light in all apartments that : - Are well insulated, - Are nice to live in, - Take into account orientation (sun and stuff), - Are a lot better looking than the previous mid-rise buildings, with maybe the exception of old 19th century construction (this is a taste thing, i personnally dislike Haussman and Victorian style, but i like Le Baron Jenney). Which make "great" architects designs worse i think (by comparison).

Scubabear68 4y ago

This reminds me of 750 7th ave in NY. A lot of Morgan Stanley IT was (is?) houses there. Rumor had it the building design was copied from a building in Texas. The problem? The beautiful terraced glass surfaces had a tendency to pick up snow and ice in the winter, which as it melted would then tend to slide off the building and crash into the sidewalk below. After heavy snow storms they had to cordone off the sidewalks so pedestrians weren’t speared to by giant icicles falling from the sky. Lesson: environmental context matters in building design. But even big time architects can goof in big ways (see also the Citibank building debacle).

Palomides 4y ago
same issue with many buildings by frank gehry

dkarl 4y ago

> these are believed to have been removed during cost-cutting Fun fact: cost-cutting in architecture is called "value engineering," a sinister euphemism if I've ever heard one.

Lukas_Skywalker 4y ago

The shape apparently also creates a strong wind at street level, because air is channeled down the building. The building is also lovingly called the "Fryscraper" by the locals.

31337Logic 4y ago

"The architect has a track record of creating buildings that burn. His Vdara hotel in Las Vegas, with a similarly concave form, focused sunlight onto the pool terrace in 2010, hot enough to melt loungers and singe guests' hair."

permo-w 4y ago
"That was a completely different problem," said Viñoly, insisting he was following a masterplan that specified arc-shaped towers. "We pointed out that would be an issue too, but who cares if you fry somebody in Las Vegas, right?"

wnkrshm 4y ago

Maybe the endgame is to create a partially open subway station with a similarly concave design at the opposite site of the focus and then put a NdCrYAG crystal there... [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar-pumped_laser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar-pumped_laser

tiku 4y ago

I was hoping for an article about the invention of the real walkietalky..

djmips 4y ago

Here is a paper on the solution used on this building. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_The_Dreaded_Death_Ray_Controlling_Facade_Reflections_Through_Purposeful_Design https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309136628_Avoiding_... And a link to a few simpler pictures - scroll through them to the right. https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/walkie-scorchie-solution-submitted-for-planning https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/walkie-scorchie-sol...

Stevvo 4y ago

"I knew this was going to happen" ... "But there was a lack of tools or software that could be used to analyse the problem accurately." It makes me think of ray-tracing. You would think an architect would already have a ray-tracer with accurate materials set up for rendering visualizations which could show the issue.

fwipsy 4y ago
You're right. It doesn't seem like a hard problem to solve. Surely the designers of those solar mirror arrays in the desert in California have software for this. If he knew it was going to happen but failed to analyze it properly, then this is his fault.