41 ms·

> Chentsova Dutton said America has an international reputation for prizing autonomy, but her study opened her eyes to a more complicated picture. American pare

> Chentsova Dutton said America has an international reputation for prizing autonomy, but her study opened her eyes to a more complicated picture. American parents tend to be overprotective when children are young, acting as if kids are going to live at home for a long time, like parents do in Italy. Yet they also expect children to live away from home fairly early for college, like families do in Germany. The result is that American kids end up with drastically fewer years navigating real life than they do in other countries that start much earlier. A really interesting point.

brightball 4y ago
It’s such a strange blend of wanting to let your kids roam while being more aware of dangers that exist, both online and off. It’s tough. For my son, Scouts have been wonderful for his independence. Can’t recommend it highly enough.
- WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
  > It’s such a strange blend of wanting to let your kids roam while being more aware of dangers that exist, both online and off. Unaccompanied roaming is, by it's nature, offline-centric. The primary, actual risks to children who are roaming are those that involve law enforcement and intolerant adults. What does not present a meaningful risk to unaccompanied children is strangers. > For my son, Scouts have been wonderful for his independence. Can’t recommend it highly enough. I was in scouting leadership for 15 years. Units that function in a way that remove adults from the picture are as good as you say. It doesn't come close to replacing what we've taken from kids but it's better than the nothing they have now.
  - taeric 4y ago
    Unaccompanied roaming is, by it's nature, offline-centric. Sorta? I think it is fair to say that independent access to the internet is a form of roaming, as well. Used to, it also involved dial-up management and maybe a known profile on Prodigy/AOL/Compuserve. Nowadays, it probably just means a device on the network.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      I agree with where you're coming from, but would point out that the commercial-surveillance Web is more of a managed experience than the free range one we experienced on the early Internet. So Internet time is likely more akin to dropping your kids off at the mall rather than letting them roam in the woods. If they've got the interest and aptitude to actually dig into computers and how they work (not just programming, but programming is a large part of it), and/or self-actualize in free form building games, that feels like it qualifies as undirected play. But not everyone is going to be so interested in deep computing.
      - taeric 4y ago
        I think that same argument can be made for a lot of the commercial-surveillance that happens in stores and such now. The idea that you can hang out behind the store without being seen is... probably not entirely accurate nowadays. To be sure, they are different.
        mindslight 4y ago
        Sure, things have changed across the board to pervasive surveillance. But if you're hanging out behind a store, it's not like the security guard will come and try to convince you to go shopping in the store instead. Whereas online there is an ever-present siren song to skip doing your own thing and play with the dopamine-hole entertainment options instead.
        taeric 4y ago
        I mean, maybe? I suspect you aren't from a dangerous town/city where getting recruited outside a shop is a thing. :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    > The primary, actual risks to children who are roaming are those that involve law enforcement and intolerant adults. Any statistics on that ? I grew up in 90s and in a family with 5 younger siblings my mother couldn't keep up. I got hit by a car running across the street at 6 (I think I was that age). I would roam local forest and street - visiting there recently I remembered how I went to pick up my ball once and nearly pulled through grabbing on a small tree. I kind of remember local people running up to the fence and yelling me back. I had no perception of how dangerous it was back then - looking at it now it was ~ 10 m drop on sharp rocks - if I slid through I was probably dead. I remember a similar experience roaming a nearby forest next to a highway tunel exit. Looking back I'm lucky to be alive. I have only one son and will probably get to have one more child, no 6 kids strategy for me. The thought of my son having a similar childhood terrifies me.
    - ZoF 4y ago
      We call that trauma an anecdote, that's orthogonal to whether modern American culture is conducive to children roaming. Anecdotally I also grew up in the 90s and I wonder how playing cops n robbers feeling 100% safe before curfew shaped me, my kid never will. We had cars as well but I don't have the equivalent to your story re: fast traffic;save that we had it nearby as well and roamed far with parents telling us to avoid it. Anyway, sorry for the injury and the carelessness. My perspective is that we went from trains being novel and a radio unheard of to handing toddlers iPads in a few centuries. Biology doesn't evolve that fast. It makes me wonder what an alien looking in would consider closer to child abuse given your comment. Unfettered iPad access or teaching a kid fast cars and roads are dangerous so going outside is bad.
    - bhaney 4y ago
      I wonder about this a lot. I have a handful of similar stories about nearly dying as a child too, as do most of my friends. But none of us have any stories about knowing someone who accidentally died as a result of doing something dangerous as a kid, even though I'd expect a few of those given how dangerous we all think our childhoods were. Of course, with the reach of the Internet, I'm sure at least somebody reading this does have a more unfortunate story. Anyway, it makes me wonder if maybe we were more aware of how to avoid danger as kids then we give ourselves credit for. Maybe only at the last minute, when instinct takes over and you cling tightly to a branch when you notice your balance shifting, or clutch your oversized stuffed dolphin to your chest when you trip on the newly de-carpeted stairs directly onto a large exposed nail that pierces through the dolphin instead of your lung. It's hard to know how protective to be, and I guess I'd rather err on the safer side, where the consequence of being wrong is that my child is just developmentally stunted instead of dead. But either way, making the wrong choice kinda sucks.
- AviationAtom 4y ago
  Educate them in the perils and pitfalls of life. Tell them not to fear them, but be aware of them, then let them know you expect them to take it from there. Kids are far more capable then we give them credit for. Not long ago they were forced to work in factories to help provide for the family.
  - ip26 4y ago
    Kids are far more capable… This is a nice sound bite, but is completely lacking a key element. At what age, precisely, is this reasonable? When are they old enough to be safe around traffic, mystery dogs, and foul weather? I can’t know if I agree or disagree without hearing whether you prescribe this approach for fifteen year olds or five year olds.
    - AviationAtom 4y ago
      TBH? It depends on the kid. This article itself points out not all kids are the same. Sometimes it's best to let a kid try and observe. If they handle it well then look to what a next milestone might look like.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Yes, but substance abuse, ceiminality and mortality of factory kids were all huge by our standards. They were not really handling it.
bmitc 4y ago
That is an interesting point. Couple that with things like cost of living, cost of education, poor training and mentorship in jobs, etc. Although I’m slightly confused by the quote. How do kids in Italy get started navigating real life earlier if they live at home longer? I’m guessing the point there is that they have help in early adulthood while still living at home, but the quote, as written, is a little confusing.
- vasco 4y ago
  Living at home is different from being babysat all the time, or from the quote "American parents are more overprotective". You can live in the same house and have way more independence growing up depending on parenting styles. I'm not sure how true or not any of this is, but depends if for example kids are more likely to play in the street without an adult supervising, going to the beach also without adult supervising, etc.
- Lalabadie 4y ago
  It's common in most of the world for families to have multi-generation households. The article probably refers to Italy as one country where it's commonplace, meaning the progress into adulthood includes gaining your independence while staying in the familial house.
- lazide 4y ago
  Well, Italian’s are not currently known for being independent adults very early either. Unemployment is insanely high for young adults too, and has been for a long time. Somewhere around 25-30% depending on how you slice ages. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1097938/unemployment-rate-by-age-group-in-italy/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1097938/unemployment-rat...
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  I think the last sentence is poorly phrased. The idea seems to be that overprotective parenting of children isn't harmful if those children continue to live with their parents as they enter adulthood, since their parents will be able to help them as they adjust. (Supposedly this happens in Italy.) Likewise, having children move out when they become adults isn't harmful if those children have grown up with the ability to live independently. (Supposedly this happens in Germany.) The problem comes when you combine overprotective parenting with the norm that children should move out at a relatively young age. This leaves young adults both unprepared and on their own when they leave. (Supposedly this happens in the US.)
yucky 4y ago
I'm confused. They're too broke to move away from home, but their mental health is bad because they were coddled while they were at home and now they're no longer at home and struggling, but also more of them live at home later in life than in generations past? Is it possible maybe the problem is they are just a bit too entitled on average, and when things don't go perfectly they can't cope? That's been my experience, albeit anecdotal. I know this comes off as old man yelling at the clouds, but damn if 20-somethings aren't emotionally fragile at a level the world has never seen before. And they're also all in therapy too and super in touch with their feelings and emotions which is supposed to help, but is actually likely to be a large part of the problem. To be fair, I don't blame them. I think the blame lies firmly on social media and their need to be "always on". But there actually is such a thing as too much empathy, and we're seeing what happens with it.
- objetovoador 4y ago
  > Is it possible maybe the problem is they are just a bit too entitled on average, and when things don't go perfectly they can't cope? Precisely. The world has never been safer or as rich, and it seems like my generation is extremely lacking in independence. Everyone has to be told to do things, it's like they have no concept of what to do without being commanded. I feel like many simply can't come up with answers on their own. No one can answer the question of how a person should their life. It's subjective. But like a muscle, it's completely atrophied. When you're never given independence, you don't recognize how to listen to your own desires or judgement. For me this explains perfectly the underlying situation behind the overbearing paternalism (from society & government) that so many apparently desire now.
  - plsbenice34 4y ago
    I think you hit the nail on the head, except that the word "entitled" is completely inappropriate to describe something entirely negative.
  - jasonhansel 4y ago
    At your age, do you think that previous generations were any better?
julianeon 4y ago
So how do we be more like Germany? Presumably German parents prepare their kids early. I'm just not sure what changes this would involve parents making.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  How about we just be more like the US was before about the 90s? As a kid who grew up in the 70s there's really a lot of truth to the "70's mom" memes/jokes. I could go with my buddies night fishing down on a pier on the bay about a mile away when I was 10 - we just had to be back by 10PM. That wouldn't happen now.
  - dkqmduems 4y ago
    Didn't get the message? US is scary after dark.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    Something went wrong in the US after 911. I don’t think it’s just the government. The entire capitalist machine realised just how profitable fear can be, and that’s been one of the big marketing angles in the 2000s. Especially in media, but elsewhere like supplements and drugs too. But the society wide impact of that has been a much more fearful people, obviously making parents more protective too.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Something went wrong in the US after 911. Well before then. I got one of the last chemistry sets around 1970, when they were all emasculated. > The entire capitalist machine realised just how profitable fear can be Oh come on. A huge driver of this problem is the legal system which encourages jackpot lawsuits, along with our culture of it's always someone else's fault (usually the party with money that becomes worthwhile to sue).
      - civilized 4y ago
OJFord 4y ago
> Yet they also expect children to live away from home fairly early for college Except American children away from home 'for college' are still exactly 'children', home with different parents. The culture of halls and canteens and the way it's funded is much more 'provided for you' than 'you're providing for yourself now'. I don't get the sense (from NA undergrads I've known, film, etc.) that much learning to cook goes on, for example. Certainly anyone living 'off-campus' and having bills to pay is in a minority.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  In my experience, college is when that transition happens: - freshman year, start off supported and end with a job - sophomore year, housing is dorms but otherwise on your own - junior and senior year, apartments with roommates and supporting yourself
  - throwaway1777 4y ago
    That’s one experience but it varies between schools.
  - weakfortress 4y ago
    What era is this? Certainly it's not the last 20-25 years. I don't remember being able to afford anything until after I graduated and was fortunate enough to have parents that let me live in the basement while I got on my feet. My college jobs were barely enough to feed me, pay the interest on my loans, and pay my parents a pittance for my chunk of the power bill. Maybe it's easier for these kids to get a programming gig paying 70k+ while they're in school but when I was a kid companies wouldn't even look at you until you could guarantee 40 hours plus overtime.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - 4y ago
lr4444lr 4y ago
It fits well with the general American mythos of self development by staking out alone into the unknown to seek your fortune (not necessarily a literal one) - whether that be out west, into the factories of the city, the natural resource rich boom towns, or overseas in foreign war. It is as if you're not really "doing it right" if you come into it too prepared.
cjbgkagh 4y ago
German and Italian youths have a lot of problems as well. Young Italians are facing crushing unemployment and Germans are facing increasing pressure from cheaper EU labor undermining their earning potential. From what I have been told by friends, being told “shut up and do your job or I’ll replace you with a cheaper foreigner” is a common experience. In addition the modern US campus experience is ‘in loco parentis‘ and even back when I experienced it there was a great deal of coddling and from what I’ve seen it’s gotten worse.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  The spector of the cheap immigrant is always raised everywhere that is successful. And most economic study on the topic shows that is far less an isse them is immagined in popular imagination.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  Germany has a substantial labor shortage in practically all departments except low/unskilled labor. Unemployment hovers around 5% and falling. There are regional differences, but all in all, the threat of “I’ll replace you with a cheaper immigration” is bogus, because there’s not even enough qualified immigrants to fill the open positions, let alone replace anyone with.
  - cjbgkagh 4y ago
    The Germans I met were in America so likely a biased sample, but it was more than one and they didn’t know each other. In addition I got the threat of being replace with a cheaper immigrant in the US even though I was the immigrant, but I worked in research which is generally paid much more than other programmers so more likely to encounter the whole why are we paying you so much sentiment.
- ido 4y ago
  We've lived in Germany for 9 years (and Austria before that, which is culturally and economically very similar) and I've not encountered that supposed widespread threat of being replaced with cheap foreign labor.
remarkEon 4y ago
I'm wondering how true this is in the United States if you don't restrict yourself to big cities when considering parenting behavior. I grew up in a mid-sized midwestern city (millennial) and we were definitely very free to do whatever we wanted (within reason) as kids, and we were actually expected to come home every change we got from college. Might be the right balance (assuming that kids have to go to college, which isn't true).
rychco 4y ago
The stereotypical American helicopter-parent/soccer-mom can be viewed as a direct result of poor zoning practices & the resulting suburban sprawl. A typical child is completely incapable of going anywhere without the guidance of a car-driving parent. It is unlikely, either on foot or bike, that they are able to get to school, get to/from sports practice, meet with friends, shop at local stores, run errands, have a part-time job, etc etc. No wonder they're too sheltered & unable to navigate independence: they've never even had the option of independence.
- bobsmooth 4y ago
  Are all suburbs like this? There were plenty of things in biking distance in my neighborhood.
  - brailsafe 4y ago
    No, but many are, particularly modern cul-de-sacs
    - bigmattystyles 4y ago
      Cul de sac rollerblade hockey is how I spent much of my youth. So many good memories.
      - jdpigeon 4y ago
        Indeed, the one upside of Cul-de-sac suburbs! But really, kids should be able to do that in a park instead of having to scramble whenever a car pulls up.
      - brailsafe 4y ago
        True, but it was on more of a crescent. I don't think it was uncommon to see it on any side street as long as you had a certain amount of people
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I could bike (or even easily walk) to a drugstore and grocery store in the neighborhood where I grew up. A "five and dime" store was within biking distance as well. Where I live now? Nope. Some kind of generic suburbia park is about all a kid could ride to in this neighborhood. And although I have been here less than a year, I do not recall many kids on bikes. It's sad.
29athrowaway 4y ago
Independent thinking/critical thinking is valued in education, but punished in the workplace. The workplace is all about authority and dogma. Each management decision establishes an authoritative truth which diverges from "the truth", and cannot be questioned because it is enforced by the company hierarchy. If you grew up believing in the scientific method you will be frustrated as fuck having to deal with axioms created by people that are not necessarily intellectually inclined and are not up to discussion. Having to spend time inside a castle of lies (i.e.: a company) is a miserable form of living, and much of the workplace burnout affecting people is due to learned helplessness. You are hired to solve problems but then find yourself in a position where you cannot do much about many of them because of bullshit reasons beyond your control, and that the root cause of many problems are the organization itself. Companies are a shitty version of the movie Die Welle with the only difference being that the uniform are not white shirts but a t-shirt with a startup logo. And that's also why many people do not want to return to the office.
znpy 4y ago
> American parents tend to be overprotective when children are young, acting as if kids are going to live at home for a long time, like parents do in Italy. Anecdotal data point. I grew up in south italy in the early 90ies. At ~11-12 years old I was independent enough to go to the countryside near home (we lived in a small town) with my dad's axe to cut down small pieces of wood, go back home and work them with table knives. It was fun. Needless to say, my parent's hadn't realized i was taking out my dad's axe (they found out later...) and my mum definitely wasn't glad i had destroyed most table knives (using them for cutting olive tree wood -- and olive tree wood is hard). To add some context: my dad was a clerk and was out most of the day, and my mum had to care about my younger sister and my older brother besides me... and I was the one making a new mess every day.

brightball 4y ago

It’s such a strange blend of wanting to let your kids roam while being more aware of dangers that exist, both online and off. It’s tough. For my son, Scouts have been wonderful for his independence. Can’t recommend it highly enough.

WarOnPrivacy 4y ago
> It’s such a strange blend of wanting to let your kids roam while being more aware of dangers that exist, both online and off. Unaccompanied roaming is, by it's nature, offline-centric. The primary, actual risks to children who are roaming are those that involve law enforcement and intolerant adults. What does not present a meaningful risk to unaccompanied children is strangers. > For my son, Scouts have been wonderful for his independence. Can’t recommend it highly enough. I was in scouting leadership for 15 years. Units that function in a way that remove adults from the picture are as good as you say. It doesn't come close to replacing what we've taken from kids but it's better than the nothing they have now.
- taeric 4y ago
  Unaccompanied roaming is, by it's nature, offline-centric. Sorta? I think it is fair to say that independent access to the internet is a form of roaming, as well. Used to, it also involved dial-up management and maybe a known profile on Prodigy/AOL/Compuserve. Nowadays, it probably just means a device on the network.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    I agree with where you're coming from, but would point out that the commercial-surveillance Web is more of a managed experience than the free range one we experienced on the early Internet. So Internet time is likely more akin to dropping your kids off at the mall rather than letting them roam in the woods. If they've got the interest and aptitude to actually dig into computers and how they work (not just programming, but programming is a large part of it), and/or self-actualize in free form building games, that feels like it qualifies as undirected play. But not everyone is going to be so interested in deep computing.
    - taeric 4y ago
      I think that same argument can be made for a lot of the commercial-surveillance that happens in stores and such now. The idea that you can hang out behind the store without being seen is... probably not entirely accurate nowadays. To be sure, they are different.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        Sure, things have changed across the board to pervasive surveillance. But if you're hanging out behind a store, it's not like the security guard will come and try to convince you to go shopping in the store instead. Whereas online there is an ever-present siren song to skip doing your own thing and play with the dopamine-hole entertainment options instead.
        taeric 4y ago
        I mean, maybe? I suspect you aren't from a dangerous town/city where getting recruited outside a shop is a thing. :)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- moonchrome 4y ago
  > The primary, actual risks to children who are roaming are those that involve law enforcement and intolerant adults. Any statistics on that ? I grew up in 90s and in a family with 5 younger siblings my mother couldn't keep up. I got hit by a car running across the street at 6 (I think I was that age). I would roam local forest and street - visiting there recently I remembered how I went to pick up my ball once and nearly pulled through grabbing on a small tree. I kind of remember local people running up to the fence and yelling me back. I had no perception of how dangerous it was back then - looking at it now it was ~ 10 m drop on sharp rocks - if I slid through I was probably dead. I remember a similar experience roaming a nearby forest next to a highway tunel exit. Looking back I'm lucky to be alive. I have only one son and will probably get to have one more child, no 6 kids strategy for me. The thought of my son having a similar childhood terrifies me.
  - ZoF 4y ago
    We call that trauma an anecdote, that's orthogonal to whether modern American culture is conducive to children roaming. Anecdotally I also grew up in the 90s and I wonder how playing cops n robbers feeling 100% safe before curfew shaped me, my kid never will. We had cars as well but I don't have the equivalent to your story re: fast traffic;save that we had it nearby as well and roamed far with parents telling us to avoid it. Anyway, sorry for the injury and the carelessness. My perspective is that we went from trains being novel and a radio unheard of to handing toddlers iPads in a few centuries. Biology doesn't evolve that fast. It makes me wonder what an alien looking in would consider closer to child abuse given your comment. Unfettered iPad access or teaching a kid fast cars and roads are dangerous so going outside is bad.
  - bhaney 4y ago
    I wonder about this a lot. I have a handful of similar stories about nearly dying as a child too, as do most of my friends. But none of us have any stories about knowing someone who accidentally died as a result of doing something dangerous as a kid, even though I'd expect a few of those given how dangerous we all think our childhoods were. Of course, with the reach of the Internet, I'm sure at least somebody reading this does have a more unfortunate story. Anyway, it makes me wonder if maybe we were more aware of how to avoid danger as kids then we give ourselves credit for. Maybe only at the last minute, when instinct takes over and you cling tightly to a branch when you notice your balance shifting, or clutch your oversized stuffed dolphin to your chest when you trip on the newly de-carpeted stairs directly onto a large exposed nail that pierces through the dolphin instead of your lung. It's hard to know how protective to be, and I guess I'd rather err on the safer side, where the consequence of being wrong is that my child is just developmentally stunted instead of dead. But either way, making the wrong choice kinda sucks.
AviationAtom 4y ago
Educate them in the perils and pitfalls of life. Tell them not to fear them, but be aware of them, then let them know you expect them to take it from there. Kids are far more capable then we give them credit for. Not long ago they were forced to work in factories to help provide for the family.
- ip26 4y ago
  Kids are far more capable… This is a nice sound bite, but is completely lacking a key element. At what age, precisely, is this reasonable? When are they old enough to be safe around traffic, mystery dogs, and foul weather? I can’t know if I agree or disagree without hearing whether you prescribe this approach for fifteen year olds or five year olds.
  - AviationAtom 4y ago
    TBH? It depends on the kid. This article itself points out not all kids are the same. Sometimes it's best to let a kid try and observe. If they handle it well then look to what a next milestone might look like.
- watwut 4y ago
  Yes, but substance abuse, ceiminality and mortality of factory kids were all huge by our standards. They were not really handling it.

bmitc 4y ago

That is an interesting point. Couple that with things like cost of living, cost of education, poor training and mentorship in jobs, etc. Although I’m slightly confused by the quote. How do kids in Italy get started navigating real life earlier if they live at home longer? I’m guessing the point there is that they have help in early adulthood while still living at home, but the quote, as written, is a little confusing.

vasco 4y ago
Living at home is different from being babysat all the time, or from the quote "American parents are more overprotective". You can live in the same house and have way more independence growing up depending on parenting styles. I'm not sure how true or not any of this is, but depends if for example kids are more likely to play in the street without an adult supervising, going to the beach also without adult supervising, etc.
Lalabadie 4y ago
It's common in most of the world for families to have multi-generation households. The article probably refers to Italy as one country where it's commonplace, meaning the progress into adulthood includes gaining your independence while staying in the familial house.
lazide 4y ago
Well, Italian’s are not currently known for being independent adults very early either. Unemployment is insanely high for young adults too, and has been for a long time. Somewhere around 25-30% depending on how you slice ages. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1097938/unemployment-rate-by-age-group-in-italy/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1097938/unemployment-rat...
jasonhansel 4y ago
I think the last sentence is poorly phrased. The idea seems to be that overprotective parenting of children isn't harmful if those children continue to live with their parents as they enter adulthood, since their parents will be able to help them as they adjust. (Supposedly this happens in Italy.) Likewise, having children move out when they become adults isn't harmful if those children have grown up with the ability to live independently. (Supposedly this happens in Germany.) The problem comes when you combine overprotective parenting with the norm that children should move out at a relatively young age. This leaves young adults both unprepared and on their own when they leave. (Supposedly this happens in the US.)

yucky 4y ago

I'm confused. They're too broke to move away from home, but their mental health is bad because they were coddled while they were at home and now they're no longer at home and struggling, but also more of them live at home later in life than in generations past? Is it possible maybe the problem is they are just a bit too entitled on average, and when things don't go perfectly they can't cope? That's been my experience, albeit anecdotal. I know this comes off as old man yelling at the clouds, but damn if 20-somethings aren't emotionally fragile at a level the world has never seen before. And they're also all in therapy too and super in touch with their feelings and emotions which is supposed to help, but is actually likely to be a large part of the problem. To be fair, I don't blame them. I think the blame lies firmly on social media and their need to be "always on". But there actually is such a thing as too much empathy, and we're seeing what happens with it.

objetovoador 4y ago
> Is it possible maybe the problem is they are just a bit too entitled on average, and when things don't go perfectly they can't cope? Precisely. The world has never been safer or as rich, and it seems like my generation is extremely lacking in independence. Everyone has to be told to do things, it's like they have no concept of what to do without being commanded. I feel like many simply can't come up with answers on their own. No one can answer the question of how a person should their life. It's subjective. But like a muscle, it's completely atrophied. When you're never given independence, you don't recognize how to listen to your own desires or judgement. For me this explains perfectly the underlying situation behind the overbearing paternalism (from society & government) that so many apparently desire now.
- plsbenice34 4y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head, except that the word "entitled" is completely inappropriate to describe something entirely negative.
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  At your age, do you think that previous generations were any better?

julianeon 4y ago

So how do we be more like Germany? Presumably German parents prepare their kids early. I'm just not sure what changes this would involve parents making.

UncleOxidant 4y ago
How about we just be more like the US was before about the 90s? As a kid who grew up in the 70s there's really a lot of truth to the "70's mom" memes/jokes. I could go with my buddies night fishing down on a pier on the bay about a mile away when I was 10 - we just had to be back by 10PM. That wouldn't happen now.
- dkqmduems 4y ago
  Didn't get the message? US is scary after dark.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  Something went wrong in the US after 911. I don’t think it’s just the government. The entire capitalist machine realised just how profitable fear can be, and that’s been one of the big marketing angles in the 2000s. Especially in media, but elsewhere like supplements and drugs too. But the society wide impact of that has been a much more fearful people, obviously making parents more protective too.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > Something went wrong in the US after 911. Well before then. I got one of the last chemistry sets around 1970, when they were all emasculated. > The entire capitalist machine realised just how profitable fear can be Oh come on. A huge driver of this problem is the legal system which encourages jackpot lawsuits, along with our culture of it's always someone else's fault (usually the party with money that becomes worthwhile to sue).
    - civilized 4y ago

OJFord 4y ago

> Yet they also expect children to live away from home fairly early for college Except American children away from home 'for college' are still exactly 'children', home with different parents. The culture of halls and canteens and the way it's funded is much more 'provided for you' than 'you're providing for yourself now'. I don't get the sense (from NA undergrads I've known, film, etc.) that much learning to cook goes on, for example. Certainly anyone living 'off-campus' and having bills to pay is in a minority.

zmgsabst 4y ago
In my experience, college is when that transition happens: - freshman year, start off supported and end with a job - sophomore year, housing is dorms but otherwise on your own - junior and senior year, apartments with roommates and supporting yourself
- throwaway1777 4y ago
  That’s one experience but it varies between schools.
- weakfortress 4y ago
  What era is this? Certainly it's not the last 20-25 years. I don't remember being able to afford anything until after I graduated and was fortunate enough to have parents that let me live in the basement while I got on my feet. My college jobs were barely enough to feed me, pay the interest on my loans, and pay my parents a pittance for my chunk of the power bill. Maybe it's easier for these kids to get a programming gig paying 70k+ while they're in school but when I was a kid companies wouldn't even look at you until you could guarantee 40 hours plus overtime.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 4y ago

lr4444lr 4y ago

It fits well with the general American mythos of self development by staking out alone into the unknown to seek your fortune (not necessarily a literal one) - whether that be out west, into the factories of the city, the natural resource rich boom towns, or overseas in foreign war. It is as if you're not really "doing it right" if you come into it too prepared.

cjbgkagh 4y ago

German and Italian youths have a lot of problems as well. Young Italians are facing crushing unemployment and Germans are facing increasing pressure from cheaper EU labor undermining their earning potential. From what I have been told by friends, being told “shut up and do your job or I’ll replace you with a cheaper foreigner” is a common experience. In addition the modern US campus experience is ‘in loco parentis‘ and even back when I experienced it there was a great deal of coddling and from what I’ve seen it’s gotten worse.

panick21_ 4y ago
The spector of the cheap immigrant is always raised everywhere that is successful. And most economic study on the topic shows that is far less an isse them is immagined in popular imagination.
Xylakant 4y ago
Germany has a substantial labor shortage in practically all departments except low/unskilled labor. Unemployment hovers around 5% and falling. There are regional differences, but all in all, the threat of “I’ll replace you with a cheaper immigration” is bogus, because there’s not even enough qualified immigrants to fill the open positions, let alone replace anyone with.
- cjbgkagh 4y ago
  The Germans I met were in America so likely a biased sample, but it was more than one and they didn’t know each other. In addition I got the threat of being replace with a cheaper immigrant in the US even though I was the immigrant, but I worked in research which is generally paid much more than other programmers so more likely to encounter the whole why are we paying you so much sentiment.
ido 4y ago
We've lived in Germany for 9 years (and Austria before that, which is culturally and economically very similar) and I've not encountered that supposed widespread threat of being replaced with cheap foreign labor.

remarkEon 4y ago

I'm wondering how true this is in the United States if you don't restrict yourself to big cities when considering parenting behavior. I grew up in a mid-sized midwestern city (millennial) and we were definitely very free to do whatever we wanted (within reason) as kids, and we were actually expected to come home every change we got from college. Might be the right balance (assuming that kids have to go to college, which isn't true).

rychco 4y ago

The stereotypical American helicopter-parent/soccer-mom can be viewed as a direct result of poor zoning practices & the resulting suburban sprawl. A typical child is completely incapable of going anywhere without the guidance of a car-driving parent. It is unlikely, either on foot or bike, that they are able to get to school, get to/from sports practice, meet with friends, shop at local stores, run errands, have a part-time job, etc etc. No wonder they're too sheltered & unable to navigate independence: they've never even had the option of independence.

bobsmooth 4y ago
Are all suburbs like this? There were plenty of things in biking distance in my neighborhood.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  No, but many are, particularly modern cul-de-sacs
  - bigmattystyles 4y ago
    Cul de sac rollerblade hockey is how I spent much of my youth. So many good memories.
    - jdpigeon 4y ago
      Indeed, the one upside of Cul-de-sac suburbs! But really, kids should be able to do that in a park instead of having to scramble whenever a car pulls up.
    - brailsafe 4y ago
      True, but it was on more of a crescent. I don't think it was uncommon to see it on any side street as long as you had a certain amount of people
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I could bike (or even easily walk) to a drugstore and grocery store in the neighborhood where I grew up. A "five and dime" store was within biking distance as well. Where I live now? Nope. Some kind of generic suburbia park is about all a kid could ride to in this neighborhood. And although I have been here less than a year, I do not recall many kids on bikes. It's sad.

29athrowaway 4y ago

Independent thinking/critical thinking is valued in education, but punished in the workplace. The workplace is all about authority and dogma. Each management decision establishes an authoritative truth which diverges from "the truth", and cannot be questioned because it is enforced by the company hierarchy. If you grew up believing in the scientific method you will be frustrated as fuck having to deal with axioms created by people that are not necessarily intellectually inclined and are not up to discussion. Having to spend time inside a castle of lies (i.e.: a company) is a miserable form of living, and much of the workplace burnout affecting people is due to learned helplessness. You are hired to solve problems but then find yourself in a position where you cannot do much about many of them because of bullshit reasons beyond your control, and that the root cause of many problems are the organization itself. Companies are a shitty version of the movie Die Welle with the only difference being that the uniform are not white shirts but a t-shirt with a startup logo. And that's also why many people do not want to return to the office.

znpy 4y ago

> American parents tend to be overprotective when children are young, acting as if kids are going to live at home for a long time, like parents do in Italy. Anecdotal data point. I grew up in south italy in the early 90ies. At ~11-12 years old I was independent enough to go to the countryside near home (we lived in a small town) with my dad's axe to cut down small pieces of wood, go back home and work them with table knives. It was fun. Needless to say, my parent's hadn't realized i was taking out my dad's axe (they found out later...) and my mum definitely wasn't glad i had destroyed most table knives (using them for cutting olive tree wood -- and olive tree wood is hard). To add some context: my dad was a clerk and was out most of the day, and my mum had to care about my younger sister and my older brother besides me... and I was the one making a new mess every day.