5 ms·

Apple Sued Alleging Racial Bias Against Minorities on Watch's Blood Oximeter

25 points by blockchainman 4y ago

2ICofafireteam 4y ago
Isn't this a bigger problem involving all pulse oximeters? It was at least two years ago that I first heard that the darker you are, the more likely you will get a false high reading on one.
- JoeyBananas 4y ago
  Not hard to believe. I honestly hope Apple doesn't get taken to the cleaners over this
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Is it not possible to design a pulse oximeter that's calibrated to different skin colors?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Isn't this a bigger problem involving all pulse oximeters? This is largely about how Apple Watch pulse oximetry feature was marketed vs. how pulse oximetry actually works, so, without taking a position on the merits of the suit, it is quite possible for Apple to legitimately be in the wrong here and other sellers of pilse oximeters not to be, even if Apple Watch pulse oximetry works exactly like pulse oximetry generally.
- grujicd 4y ago
  My wife has Garmin with pulse oximeter (Venu Sq). I wonder how that feature passed any testing at all since it's next to useless. On white skin btw.
shagie 4y ago
The complaint is also available at https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 - the pdf is https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590.1.0.pdf https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... The initial part of the complaint: 1. Apple, Inc. (“Defendant”) manufactures, markets, and sells the Apple Watch, purporting to measure the oxygen level of a wearer’s blood directly from their wrist (“Product”). 2. The interest in blood oxygen levels extends began at least two hundred years ago hot air balloon flyers and mountain climbers needed to ensure survival. 3. Later, these groups included astronauts, pilots and divers. 4. The early devices, were used in a person’s ear, used light-based technology or spectrophotometry to measure oxygen levels. 5. In the 1970s, a fingertip oximeter was invented that was easier to use than its predecessors. 6. For decades, there have been reports that such devices were significantly less accurate in measuring blood oxygen levels based on skin color. 7. The “real world significance” of this bias lay unaddressed until the middle of the Coronavirus pandemic, which converged with a greater awareness of structural racism which exists in many aspects of society. 8. Researchers confirmed the clinical significance of racial bias of pulse oximetry using records of patients taken during and before the pandemic. 9. The conclusion was that “reliance on pulse oximetry to triage patients and adjust supplemental oxygen levels may place Black patients at increased risk for hypoxemia.” 10. Since health care recommendations are based on readings of their blood oxygen levels, white patients are more able to obtain care than those with darker skin when faced with equally low blood oxygenation. 11. While traditional fingertip pulse oximeters are capable of measuring blood oxygen levels and heart rate, wrist-worn devices like the Product determine heart rate, as blood oxygen measurements from the wrist are believed inaccurate. 12. Algorithms designed for fingertip sensing are inappropriate when based on wrist measurements, and can lead to over 90% of readings being unusable. 13. Though one recent study concluded the Product was able to detect reduced blood oxygen saturation in comparison to medical-grade pulse oximeters this fails to recognize the failings of pulse oximetry in general with respect to persons of color. 14. As a result of the false and misleading representations, the Product is sold at a premium price, approximately no less than $400, excluding tax and sales.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  This seems like an attempt to hold up Apple as some kind of proxy for the medical industry. I'm not sure what they hope to get out of this, other than raising awareness of a long-standing problem with pulse oximeters and dark skin (I certainly didn't know about it before now).
  - BugsJustFindMe 4y ago
    I think in order to bring a lawsuit you have to actually have a relationship with the particular company. So it would take someone who bought a thing to sue over it failing to uphold its claims. If the suit against Apple for the Apple Watch works, I would absolutely expect other vendors to follow.
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    If all they accomplish is raising awareness, it will be worth it to more than half of the world's population.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Racism requires intent. Even if they KNEW of the discrepancy, they have to optimize towards something. Did Apple do this because they dont like black people? Going to be hard to prove that but it wouldn't be surprising if the plaintiffs gets a payout none-the-less.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Racism requires intent. . Even if they KNEW of the discrepancy, they have to optimize towards something. Did Apple do this because they dont like black people? They aren't charged with “racism”, which, incidentally, also isn't, per se, illegal. So even if that was true of racism, it isn't relevant. They are charged with fraud under various laws, breach of warranty, and unjust enrichment, some of which require intent, but not the intent you describe (racial animus).
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    That's not based in reality and in fact a very common misconception. The truth is the opposite.
Sindrome 4y ago
[flagged]
- uoaei 4y ago
  If your product doesn't serve your potential customers the way you demonstrate in ads, it is false advertising at the very least. The idea that companies don't have responsibility to produce something that works as intended for those who buy them is laughable in its ignorance of the history of consumer protection regulations.
nonethewiser 4y ago
Opining against racism is profitable.
dainiusse 4y ago
This is absurd...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mjhay 4y ago
  It's marketed as being accurate. It's not for large segments of the population. This is clearly a serious problem (and with all pulse oximeters). How is that absurd?
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    If skin color is a factor then some group could always make this case. It's just the reality of different skin colors existing.
    - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
      Then is it too much to ask to disclose this?
      - dpratt 4y ago
        Are you really backing the argument that Apple’s product team is composed of mustache-twirling racists?
        lynndotpy 4y ago
        Nobody is making this argument.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - mjhay 4y ago
      Of course they didn't do it to specifically disadvantage black people, but they clearly did not do their due diligence to make sure it worked properly with black people. That's the issue. You're doing semantic quibbling over your own particular notion of what "racism" is.
AlokNandan 4y ago
EDIT: This is a known issue w/ all pulse oximeters. See Prof Kadambi @UCLA work on this --> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fixing-medical-devices-that-are-biased-against-race-or-gender/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fixing-medical-de... FDA is aware of this issue. Increasing diversity in clinical trials is a hard problem. https://www.linkedin.com/events/increasingdiversityinclinicaltr6975138914856529920/comments/ https://www.linkedin.com/events/increasingdiversityinclinica...
- lynndotpy 4y ago
  And nothing in Apple's advertising or product info suggested this. I also don't think I saw anything describing this in the ToS or EULA. The least they could do is be upfront about this.
  - Teever 4y ago
    Do you feel they should have a disclaimer about it being harder to take picture of dark skinned people in many settings with their cameras as well? Did you actually read the ToS or EULA?
    - BugsJustFindMe 4y ago
      There are slightly different rules for health devices than for leisure ones. If the problem is real, then it seems reasonable to me for Apple (and everyone else, just to be clear) to be made to amend their printed materials to properly disclose well-known-to-Apple problems with oximetry in darker skin. Again, if the problem is real, then they guy deserves a refund, fees covered, maybe a small token for the effort, and for Apple to not make product claims that it can't fulfill. I do hope it doesn't turn into a giant thing though.
      - vasqw 4y ago
        From what I've read the device is FDA-approved so I don't see the issue.
      - 4y ago
antiquark 4y ago
Wouldn't this actually be a melanin bias?
javajosh 4y ago
All photography and lighting equipment is racially biased.
- pontilanda 4y ago
  It’s just because they were developed by white males /s
- yrnameer 4y ago
  You joke but there was a keynote where they (or maybe another tech brand.. can't remember) debuted their new special camera AI that was less discriminatory against black faces (by underexposing them of course). Here's a link to something in the same vein https://www.wired.com/story/can-apples-iphone-x-beat-facial-recognitions-bias-problem/ https://www.wired.com/story/can-apples-iphone-x-beat-facial-...
  - jvolkman 4y ago
    It was Google. https://blog.google/products/pixel/image-equity-real-tone-pixel-6-photos/ https://blog.google/products/pixel/image-equity-real-tone-pi...
rcpt 4y ago
Pulse Ox on watches is just a dumb feature. There's really no reason to measure that throughout the day and it kills battery almost as fast as gps.
outside1234 4y ago
Sunblock is also racially biased. Let's call this out for what it is - some lawyer is looking for a bag.
jld89 4y ago
What is even the point of measuring this at all times????
- mjhay 4y ago
  This became a bigger deal with COVID, because crashing O2 levels could occur even when someone is subjectively feeling relatively fine - e.g., they think they've got mild COVID and then are all of a sudden at deaths door with little warning. Not something most people generally need though.
- nradov 4y ago
  For healthy people in normal conditions it's rather pointless. Continuous monitoring can be useful for patients with known or suspected pulmonary conditions, such as emphysema, COVID-19, or pneumonia. Monitoring during sleep can be useful for diagnosing sleep apnea. There is also an edge case for high altitude mountaineering and flying in unpressurized aircraft where hypoxia can be an issue.
nightpool 4y ago
Companies get sued by random people for stuff like this all the time, I don't think there's anything here that indicates this is particularly newsworthy or exceptional. This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tarts-lawyer-spencer-sheehan-vanilla-lime-food-beverage https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tar.... Apparently (according to that NPR article) he files ~3 lawsuits per week
- seanw444 4y ago
  I can't imagine spending my whole life filing bullshit lawsuits.
  - melony 4y ago
    There needs to be Slapp for frivolous trolls like him.
  - Cerium 4y ago
    Scott Johnson manages all right. [1][2][3] At least he got caught on tax fraud. [4] [1]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/08/06/san-jose-falafels-drive-in-faces-threat-from-serial-ada-plaintiff https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/08/06/san-jose-falafels-dri... [2]: https://abc7news.com/san-jose-time-deli-close-to-sued/2211438/ https://abc7news.com/san-jose-time-deli-close-to-sued/221143... [3]: https://www.siliconvalley.com/2021/08/17/attorney-sues-dozens-of-peninsula-businesses-over-ada-violations/ https://www.siliconvalley.com/2021/08/17/attorney-sues-dozen... [4]: https://www.justice.gov/usao-edca/pr/sacramento-attorney-and-filer-ada-lawsuits-pleads-guilty-filing-false-tax-return https://www.justice.gov/usao-edca/pr/sacramento-attorney-and...
  - giantrobot 4y ago
    It must be the VC model for lawyers, it takes one mega-successful lawsuit out of a hundred to come out ahead.
- mcphage 4y ago
  > This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts I'm definitely against frivolous lawsuits, but that doesn't seem like a good example of one to me. "Product isn't what it claims" seems like a totally valid lawsuit.
Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
I'm curious about the word 'bias' here. From a technical perspective, does the pulse oximetry sensor just have more variance on darker skin (presumably from it being more opaque and signal to noise being worse), or is there an actual bias (e.g. reads high all the time)?
- hedgehog 4y ago
  Lower overall return of light which causes low SNR, how that manifests is a software question. I've worked on similar systems and read some of the papers about the pulse ox problems, the problem is pretty well known for the finger clip style devices. Watches are harder because the fit to wrist is unreliable and there is muscle and bone right under the skin. In my experience (pretty pale skin) the data quality from the Apple Watch is poor but good enough for rough trending over weeks.
karaterobot 4y ago
Race and skin tone seem to be used interchangeably in this complaint. I see "persons of color" and "racial bias" in consecutive claims. If the sensors are biased, they are certainly biased against skin tones rather than races: a light skinned black person will get a better reading than a dark skinned one. That is, it's not that the sensor says "black person detected, shutting down", it's just not as good at picking up darker skin tones because of the limitations of the inexpensive sensor technology they went with. It seems like racial bias is a hot take, but they may have a better case that Apple engaged in false advertising, especially if they showed anyone in their marketing for whom the sensor was unlikely to be accurate. /armchair internet lawyer.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
Doesn't the person filing the suit, by the wording of the suit, admit to expecting inaccuracy based on skin color before buying the device? Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  > Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight. They wouldn't have standing to sue Garmin and Fitbit unless they had purchased products from those companies as well. But even if they had, it's not required to sue all possible defendants simultaneously. Sometimes plaintiffs start with the small defendants, who are more likely to settle because of lack of funds, and sometimes they start with the big ones, who are worth more and may care about the court of public opinion.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Invictus0 4y ago
This is a bunch of nonsense, the complaint itself reads like an 5th grader's English class homework assignment. It's less coherent than ChatGPT and cites no data whatsoever. I'm a mechanical engineer. There is no way that Apple's mechanical team did not evaluate the oximeter performance against people of many skin colors. If this thing goes to trial, Apple will pull out their test data and that will be the end of the case.
Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago
Is this satire? If not, here's some: From a quick search it appears that subcutaneous fat can adversely affect the accuracy of an optical pulse oximeter. It sounds like everyone with a large BMI should get a class action going too. For that matter, I can't believe that the GPS in the Apple Watch, which is marketed as accurate by a trillion dollar company, works worse for people living in dense urban areas. Another clear case of bias against the urban poor while billionaires living on their ranches in Montana with an open view of the sky enjoy perfect GPS.
nradov 4y ago
I expect that similar lawsuits will be filed against other smart watch vendors such as Garmin. They all use oximeters that work in essentially the same way. (I am not making any claim about the legal merits of this case.)
diebeforei485 4y ago
So, this isn't a medical device. It's for fitness. As long as the trends are correct, the actual numbers don't matter.
hnuser123456 4y ago
Maybe we can require people take selfies in sunlight with a known camera sensor and white balance and exposure to accurately gauge their natural skin color, then have a corrective calibration factor sent to the watch's oximeter.
- etrautmann 4y ago
  I think there are different issues between cameras and pulse ox. I would guess that the SNR on a pulse ox is decreased by the additional attenuation of the LED illumination being sent in and scattered back out. It may be possible to compensate for this with increased LED brightness, but it would depend on the total degree of signal attenuation whether this is feasible given the power budget. For an imaging sensor, the sensors are designed to be sensitive at different wavelengths and in different dynamic ranges, with some historical set points determined by major manufacturers being located in Japan. While darker tones do imply less collected light, this seems like a very solvable problem with in-camera image processing. Another interesting question is around non-invasive neural sensors. Many EEG electrodes work relatively poorly in thick or curly hair, and there's been several efforts to develop EEG electrodes appropriate for natural hair [0] [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33019375/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33019375/
BugsJustFindMe 4y ago
https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_on_Apple_Watch_October_2022.pdf https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_... describes in pretty solid detail that Apple specifically explored skin color and claims they found no effect on performance. If that's actually true then they'll have no trouble showing that the case is invalid. If that's not true then the case seems ok. Either way, I don't see a lot of harm in forcing Apple to show the court.

25 points by blockchainman 4y ago

Isn't this a bigger problem involving all pulse oximeters? It was at least two years ago that I first heard that the darker you are, the more likely you will get a false high reading on one.

JoeyBananas 4y ago
Not hard to believe. I honestly hope Apple doesn't get taken to the cleaners over this
nerdponx 4y ago
Is it not possible to design a pulse oximeter that's calibrated to different skin colors?
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Isn't this a bigger problem involving all pulse oximeters? This is largely about how Apple Watch pulse oximetry feature was marketed vs. how pulse oximetry actually works, so, without taking a position on the merits of the suit, it is quite possible for Apple to legitimately be in the wrong here and other sellers of pilse oximeters not to be, even if Apple Watch pulse oximetry works exactly like pulse oximetry generally.
grujicd 4y ago
My wife has Garmin with pulse oximeter (Venu Sq). I wonder how that feature passed any testing at all since it's next to useless. On white skin btw.

shagie 4y ago

The complaint is also available at https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 https://archive.org/details/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590 - the pdf is https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590/gov.uscourts.nysd.591590.1.0.pdf https://ia601507.us.archive.org/26/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.5... The initial part of the complaint: 1. Apple, Inc. (“Defendant”) manufactures, markets, and sells the Apple Watch, purporting to measure the oxygen level of a wearer’s blood directly from their wrist (“Product”). 2. The interest in blood oxygen levels extends began at least two hundred years ago hot air balloon flyers and mountain climbers needed to ensure survival. 3. Later, these groups included astronauts, pilots and divers. 4. The early devices, were used in a person’s ear, used light-based technology or spectrophotometry to measure oxygen levels. 5. In the 1970s, a fingertip oximeter was invented that was easier to use than its predecessors. 6. For decades, there have been reports that such devices were significantly less accurate in measuring blood oxygen levels based on skin color. 7. The “real world significance” of this bias lay unaddressed until the middle of the Coronavirus pandemic, which converged with a greater awareness of structural racism which exists in many aspects of society. 8. Researchers confirmed the clinical significance of racial bias of pulse oximetry using records of patients taken during and before the pandemic. 9. The conclusion was that “reliance on pulse oximetry to triage patients and adjust supplemental oxygen levels may place Black patients at increased risk for hypoxemia.” 10. Since health care recommendations are based on readings of their blood oxygen levels, white patients are more able to obtain care than those with darker skin when faced with equally low blood oxygenation. 11. While traditional fingertip pulse oximeters are capable of measuring blood oxygen levels and heart rate, wrist-worn devices like the Product determine heart rate, as blood oxygen measurements from the wrist are believed inaccurate. 12. Algorithms designed for fingertip sensing are inappropriate when based on wrist measurements, and can lead to over 90% of readings being unusable. 13. Though one recent study concluded the Product was able to detect reduced blood oxygen saturation in comparison to medical-grade pulse oximeters this fails to recognize the failings of pulse oximetry in general with respect to persons of color. 14. As a result of the false and misleading representations, the Product is sold at a premium price, approximately no less than $400, excluding tax and sales.

nerdponx 4y ago
This seems like an attempt to hold up Apple as some kind of proxy for the medical industry. I'm not sure what they hope to get out of this, other than raising awareness of a long-standing problem with pulse oximeters and dark skin (I certainly didn't know about it before now).
- BugsJustFindMe 4y ago
  I think in order to bring a lawsuit you have to actually have a relationship with the particular company. So it would take someone who bought a thing to sue over it failing to uphold its claims. If the suit against Apple for the Apple Watch works, I would absolutely expect other vendors to follow.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  If all they accomplish is raising awareness, it will be worth it to more than half of the world's population.
nonethewiser 4y ago
Racism requires intent. Even if they KNEW of the discrepancy, they have to optimize towards something. Did Apple do this because they dont like black people? Going to be hard to prove that but it wouldn't be surprising if the plaintiffs gets a payout none-the-less.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Racism requires intent. . Even if they KNEW of the discrepancy, they have to optimize towards something. Did Apple do this because they dont like black people? They aren't charged with “racism”, which, incidentally, also isn't, per se, illegal. So even if that was true of racism, it isn't relevant. They are charged with fraud under various laws, breach of warranty, and unjust enrichment, some of which require intent, but not the intent you describe (racial animus).
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  That's not based in reality and in fact a very common misconception. The truth is the opposite.

Sindrome 4y ago

[flagged]

uoaei 4y ago
If your product doesn't serve your potential customers the way you demonstrate in ads, it is false advertising at the very least. The idea that companies don't have responsibility to produce something that works as intended for those who buy them is laughable in its ignorance of the history of consumer protection regulations.

nonethewiser 4y ago

Opining against racism is profitable.

dainiusse 4y ago

This is absurd...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mjhay 4y ago
It's marketed as being accurate. It's not for large segments of the population. This is clearly a serious problem (and with all pulse oximeters). How is that absurd?
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  If skin color is a factor then some group could always make this case. It's just the reality of different skin colors existing.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    Then is it too much to ask to disclose this?
    - dpratt 4y ago
      Are you really backing the argument that Apple’s product team is composed of mustache-twirling racists?
      - lynndotpy 4y ago
        Nobody is making this argument.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - mjhay 4y ago
    Of course they didn't do it to specifically disadvantage black people, but they clearly did not do their due diligence to make sure it worked properly with black people. That's the issue. You're doing semantic quibbling over your own particular notion of what "racism" is.

AlokNandan 4y ago

EDIT: This is a known issue w/ all pulse oximeters. See Prof Kadambi @UCLA work on this --> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fixing-medical-devices-that-are-biased-against-race-or-gender/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fixing-medical-de... FDA is aware of this issue. Increasing diversity in clinical trials is a hard problem. https://www.linkedin.com/events/increasingdiversityinclinicaltr6975138914856529920/comments/ https://www.linkedin.com/events/increasingdiversityinclinica...

lynndotpy 4y ago
And nothing in Apple's advertising or product info suggested this. I also don't think I saw anything describing this in the ToS or EULA. The least they could do is be upfront about this.
- Teever 4y ago
  Do you feel they should have a disclaimer about it being harder to take picture of dark skinned people in many settings with their cameras as well? Did you actually read the ToS or EULA?
  - BugsJustFindMe 4y ago
    There are slightly different rules for health devices than for leisure ones. If the problem is real, then it seems reasonable to me for Apple (and everyone else, just to be clear) to be made to amend their printed materials to properly disclose well-known-to-Apple problems with oximetry in darker skin. Again, if the problem is real, then they guy deserves a refund, fees covered, maybe a small token for the effort, and for Apple to not make product claims that it can't fulfill. I do hope it doesn't turn into a giant thing though.
    - vasqw 4y ago
      From what I've read the device is FDA-approved so I don't see the issue.
    - 4y ago

antiquark 4y ago

Wouldn't this actually be a melanin bias?

javajosh 4y ago

All photography and lighting equipment is racially biased.

pontilanda 4y ago
It’s just because they were developed by white males /s
yrnameer 4y ago
You joke but there was a keynote where they (or maybe another tech brand.. can't remember) debuted their new special camera AI that was less discriminatory against black faces (by underexposing them of course). Here's a link to something in the same vein https://www.wired.com/story/can-apples-iphone-x-beat-facial-recognitions-bias-problem/ https://www.wired.com/story/can-apples-iphone-x-beat-facial-...
- jvolkman 4y ago
  It was Google. https://blog.google/products/pixel/image-equity-real-tone-pixel-6-photos/ https://blog.google/products/pixel/image-equity-real-tone-pi...

rcpt 4y ago

Pulse Ox on watches is just a dumb feature. There's really no reason to measure that throughout the day and it kills battery almost as fast as gps.

outside1234 4y ago

Sunblock is also racially biased. Let's call this out for what it is - some lawyer is looking for a bag.

jld89 4y ago

What is even the point of measuring this at all times????

mjhay 4y ago
This became a bigger deal with COVID, because crashing O2 levels could occur even when someone is subjectively feeling relatively fine - e.g., they think they've got mild COVID and then are all of a sudden at deaths door with little warning. Not something most people generally need though.
nradov 4y ago
For healthy people in normal conditions it's rather pointless. Continuous monitoring can be useful for patients with known or suspected pulmonary conditions, such as emphysema, COVID-19, or pneumonia. Monitoring during sleep can be useful for diagnosing sleep apnea. There is also an edge case for high altitude mountaineering and flying in unpressurized aircraft where hypoxia can be an issue.

nightpool 4y ago

Companies get sued by random people for stuff like this all the time, I don't think there's anything here that indicates this is particularly newsworthy or exceptional. This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tarts-lawyer-spencer-sheehan-vanilla-lime-food-beverage https://www.npr.org/2021/10/30/1050175655/strawberry-pop-tar.... Apparently (according to that NPR article) he files ~3 lawsuits per week

seanw444 4y ago
I can't imagine spending my whole life filing bullshit lawsuits.
- melony 4y ago
  There needs to be Slapp for frivolous trolls like him.
- Cerium 4y ago
  Scott Johnson manages all right. [1][2][3] At least he got caught on tax fraud. [4] [1]: https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/08/06/san-jose-falafels-drive-in-faces-threat-from-serial-ada-plaintiff https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/08/06/san-jose-falafels-dri... [2]: https://abc7news.com/san-jose-time-deli-close-to-sued/2211438/ https://abc7news.com/san-jose-time-deli-close-to-sued/221143... [3]: https://www.siliconvalley.com/2021/08/17/attorney-sues-dozens-of-peninsula-businesses-over-ada-violations/ https://www.siliconvalley.com/2021/08/17/attorney-sues-dozen... [4]: https://www.justice.gov/usao-edca/pr/sacramento-attorney-and-filer-ada-lawsuits-pleads-guilty-filing-false-tax-return https://www.justice.gov/usao-edca/pr/sacramento-attorney-and...
- giantrobot 4y ago
  It must be the VC model for lawyers, it takes one mega-successful lawsuit out of a hundred to come out ahead.
mcphage 4y ago
> This is the same class-action lawyer who sued Kellogs for not putting enough strawberry ingredients into their strawberry poptarts I'm definitely against frivolous lawsuits, but that doesn't seem like a good example of one to me. "Product isn't what it claims" seems like a totally valid lawsuit.

Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago

I'm curious about the word 'bias' here. From a technical perspective, does the pulse oximetry sensor just have more variance on darker skin (presumably from it being more opaque and signal to noise being worse), or is there an actual bias (e.g. reads high all the time)?

hedgehog 4y ago
Lower overall return of light which causes low SNR, how that manifests is a software question. I've worked on similar systems and read some of the papers about the pulse ox problems, the problem is pretty well known for the finger clip style devices. Watches are harder because the fit to wrist is unreliable and there is muscle and bone right under the skin. In my experience (pretty pale skin) the data quality from the Apple Watch is poor but good enough for rough trending over weeks.

karaterobot 4y ago

Race and skin tone seem to be used interchangeably in this complaint. I see "persons of color" and "racial bias" in consecutive claims. If the sensors are biased, they are certainly biased against skin tones rather than races: a light skinned black person will get a better reading than a dark skinned one. That is, it's not that the sensor says "black person detected, shutting down", it's just not as good at picking up darker skin tones because of the limitations of the inexpensive sensor technology they went with. It seems like racial bias is a hot take, but they may have a better case that Apple engaged in false advertising, especially if they showed anyone in their marketing for whom the sensor was unlikely to be accurate. /armchair internet lawyer.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

Doesn't the person filing the suit, by the wording of the suit, admit to expecting inaccuracy based on skin color before buying the device? Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight.

gnicholas 4y ago
> Also, did they sue Garmin and Fitbit similarly? If not, it's kind of a self confessed money grab attempt in full daylight. They wouldn't have standing to sue Garmin and Fitbit unless they had purchased products from those companies as well. But even if they had, it's not required to sue all possible defendants simultaneously. Sometimes plaintiffs start with the small defendants, who are more likely to settle because of lack of funds, and sometimes they start with the big ones, who are worth more and may care about the court of public opinion.
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Invictus0 4y ago

This is a bunch of nonsense, the complaint itself reads like an 5th grader's English class homework assignment. It's less coherent than ChatGPT and cites no data whatsoever. I'm a mechanical engineer. There is no way that Apple's mechanical team did not evaluate the oximeter performance against people of many skin colors. If this thing goes to trial, Apple will pull out their test data and that will be the end of the case.

Dave_Rosenthal 4y ago

Is this satire? If not, here's some: From a quick search it appears that subcutaneous fat can adversely affect the accuracy of an optical pulse oximeter. It sounds like everyone with a large BMI should get a class action going too. For that matter, I can't believe that the GPS in the Apple Watch, which is marketed as accurate by a trillion dollar company, works worse for people living in dense urban areas. Another clear case of bias against the urban poor while billionaires living on their ranches in Montana with an open view of the sky enjoy perfect GPS.

nradov 4y ago

I expect that similar lawsuits will be filed against other smart watch vendors such as Garmin. They all use oximeters that work in essentially the same way. (I am not making any claim about the legal merits of this case.)

diebeforei485 4y ago

So, this isn't a medical device. It's for fitness. As long as the trends are correct, the actual numbers don't matter.

hnuser123456 4y ago

Maybe we can require people take selfies in sunlight with a known camera sensor and white balance and exposure to accurately gauge their natural skin color, then have a corrective calibration factor sent to the watch's oximeter.

etrautmann 4y ago
I think there are different issues between cameras and pulse ox. I would guess that the SNR on a pulse ox is decreased by the additional attenuation of the LED illumination being sent in and scattered back out. It may be possible to compensate for this with increased LED brightness, but it would depend on the total degree of signal attenuation whether this is feasible given the power budget. For an imaging sensor, the sensors are designed to be sensitive at different wavelengths and in different dynamic ranges, with some historical set points determined by major manufacturers being located in Japan. While darker tones do imply less collected light, this seems like a very solvable problem with in-camera image processing. Another interesting question is around non-invasive neural sensors. Many EEG electrodes work relatively poorly in thick or curly hair, and there's been several efforts to develop EEG electrodes appropriate for natural hair [0] [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33019375/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33019375/

BugsJustFindMe 4y ago

https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_on_Apple_Watch_October_2022.pdf https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_... describes in pretty solid detail that Apple specifically explored skin color and claims they found no effect on performance. If that's actually true then they'll have no trouble showing that the case is invalid. If that's not true then the case seems ok. Either way, I don't see a lot of harm in forcing Apple to show the court.