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I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand. A lot of people I know hesitate to take a seat on a plane, even for

I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand. A lot of people I know hesitate to take a seat on a plane, even for a week-long holiday. Having to read about Elon Jet and that Musk takes a whole plane to watch a football game certainly rubs them the wrong way. Censoring users at will for his own ego or his own benefit also seems to go against what intellectual tech enthusiasts value. A lot of his tweets seem cold-hearted, passive-aggressive towards minorities like immigrants and LGBT people. For the people who followed it (not sure if it is many of the Tesla target demographic), it must have been a change from "Smart free speech absolutist who works on accelerating the advent of sustainable energy to save the world" to "Unethical, narcissistic despot with ill will towards minorities".

hrrsn 4y ago
My mother has been in the market for a new car for the last few months. I was keen on a Tesla until the shitposter in chief took the reins. We bought an Audi last week instead.
- alvah 4y ago
  Wait until you find out the history of Audi (and its parent company VW)
  - werdnapk 4y ago
    Any reason why people have to keep bringing this up? At this point, who really cares.
    - alvah 4y ago
      Audi or VW are poor choices if virtue signaling is the aim. Almost any other Western car company would have been better.
      - FatActor 4y ago
        Comparing corporations from 80 years ago under a regime that was toppled to a shitty CEO from today is utterly meaningless. The point of conscientious spending is to affect change. Not buying an Audi today does not send a message to Nazi Germany because it no longer exists (and it wasn't even Audi, it was their predecessor). Not buying a Tesla today sends a message to Tesla, because it exists. Make sense?
        alvah 4y ago
        "Didn't buy a Tesla" = sends a message to Tesla "Didn't buy a Tesla, bought an Audi" = poorly-executed virtue signal attempt.
        hrrsn 4y ago
        If I was attempting virtue signalling, I wouldn't have bought an ICE over an EV.
        alvah 4y ago
        Audi sell EVs as well as ICEs. You said you’d bought an Audi after considering a Tesla. As I said, poorly-executed virtue signal.
        watwut 4y ago
        Really not. Only full on anti-capitalist care about origins of companies deep into last century. And even they are doing it for larger capitalism bad reasons. Plus there is nothing wrong with virtue signaling, really. It beats vice signaling by miles and it beats passivity too.
        FatActor 4y ago
        Why is virtue signalling bad? It's demonstrating that you care about something related to human dignity. Do you really think that is so awful that you laugh at it? What would have been better virtue signalling?
      - deleted 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - meepmorp 4y ago
      Because they don't have a better point to make, so they're going for a gotcha
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Depends on what history you talk about? The Nazis are gone for 80 years and quite a few of the emission scandal managers are in jail.
    - alvah 4y ago
      When is the official cutoff, for a company founded by the Nazi party to be used as the positive side of a virtue-signaling comparison? Obviously less than 80 years?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - meepmorp 4y ago
        [flagged]
        alvah 4y ago
        [flagged]
  - vadym909 4y ago
    This makes no sense. VW is a public company, employing regular people, making good cars in Germany and elsewhere. No one brings up the past for Japanese, so not sure what the logic for punishing VW is?
    - alvah 4y ago
      Who is punishing VW? I drive one (my 3rd) & it's a great car. I'm not using it to signal my virtue though, and I am suggesting it's a poor choice for that purpose.
      - voltaireodactyl 4y ago
        Having and/or abiding by personal principles is hardly virtue signally — to the best of my understanding, it’s just called having a moral compass.
        plorkyeran 4y ago
        There is a certain kind of person who does not believe that anyone actually has morals, and so interprets any form of having a moral compass as "virtue signaling".
        MrMan 4y ago
        "moral compass" is something leftists invented to try to constrain the freedom of value creators. morals are an imaginary thing - ever read Atlas Shrugged? We all need to wake up - the left are trying to destroy capitalism and free speech with their "morals". Next they will say its wrong to cull the weak en mass to make room for more fit individuals.
        voltaireodactyl 4y ago
        Of course I read Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, et all -- basic high school reading, hasn't everyone? I actually won first place in that stupid prize they set out, and all I had to do was pretend Rand wasn't a total dunce (which happily turned out to be excellent training for the business world). Both novels, like the majority of Rand's work, are absolutely cracking as wish-fulfillment fantasies for folks without social skills who dream of having kinky, angular sex while demanding that they be made BusinessPapa for perfecting some mechanical process. Ignoring, of course, that perfection in a vacuum means very little; it is the ability to use said process in the context of society that makes it 1) useful and 2) profitable (although I suppose Rand would order those different :) Who is John Galt? The kid who took his ball and went home when the other children didn't let him make all the rules. In short, I do not find Objectivism to be a useful rubric when it comes to morality. Frankly, Objectivism is incoherent except when read as a wish-fullfilment fantasy as described above, as the life of the originator handily demonstrates. Success does not come from minimizing the contributions of everyone else -- that way lies loneliness, hypocrisy, and a reliance on the teat of the State. As I deeply value my freedom and lack of debt, I could never adhere to such a unprofitable and vacuous quote unquote philosophy. With regard to "moral compass" being a leftist invention -- such an accusation betrays precisely the sort of total willful ignorance I have come to expect from self-proclaimed Objectivists (akin to RATM being Atlas Shrugged devotee Paul Ryan -- aka the literal machine --'s favorite band). Suffice it to say that the phrase "moral compass" appears long before the current political paradigm -- and the concept to which it refers is literally older than written language itself. Have you read any books OTHER than Atlas Shrugged? If not, I would be happy to provide a few suggestions to get you started! And while I'm dispensing unsolicited-but-potentially-life-changing advice: If I were you, I'd hesitate to out myself in public forums as being unfamiliar with an inner sense of morality. Most people prefer a social circle that views their friendship as something greater than a business arrangement built on symbiotic profit. I would ALSO hesitate before living my life in the accordance with the principles of an parasitic welfare queen like Ayn Rand, but that's an entire conversation in and of itself.
  - bongoman37 4y ago
    [dead]
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    How many people are alive who worked for VW in 1937? I skimmed Audi’s wiki. What does it have to do with Nazis? Because it was an active company during the rise of Nazis? Yeah of course. The company was run by capitalists. Just like most companies. We know socialists weren’t running stuff. They were executed.
    - alvah 4y ago
      VW was founded by the Nazis, and the SS ran labor camps where prisoners were forced to work for Auto Union. I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned in Audi's wiki, they did make an announcement about it several years ago. I find it amusing that this company seems to be the go-to for those refusing to buy a Tesla for ethical reasons (see also: Alyssa Milano recently announcing she sold her Tesla to buy a VW).
      - karmakurtisaani 4y ago
        I don't think VW has benefited any (openly) Nazi people in several decades, so this argument seems just really silly.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Please. If you want to make this particular argument you'd be better off doing it for Opel than VW.
        alvah 4y ago
        Tell the OP to buy an Opel instead of an Audi then.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        You are not making a whole lot of sense in this thread.
renewiltord 4y ago
A good test for one's instincts is to guess what Tesla NPS is. Then look up estimates.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  That isn't a brand, it is a cult. Tesla's are not even that good of cars. They feel really cheap.
theflyingelvis 4y ago
I’ve wondered the same.
linkjuice4all 4y ago
It's a shame since Tesla and SpaceX both seemed to have reached maturity beyond the start-up/celebrity CEO stage. Yes - they're both facing teething issues, supply chain problems, demand, etc - but it'd be easier to write off these drops if the CEO wasn't busy with some glorified SMS service.
- aylmao 4y ago
  IMO Tesla reached "maturity" with two issues: - It was so incredibly overvalued before being mature, that once it actually started to deliver on some promises its price shot up even further from where it should be. - It reached "maturity" too late. Other car makers have caught up. Consumers can buy a Ford F-150 Lightning, an Rivian R1T or a GMC Hummer EV today, but not a Cybertruck. Kia, Nissan, Mini, Porsche, Audi, etc have great EV offerings. Tesla isn't even the biggest seller of electric cars in the world anymore (it's BYD, 354k sales vs Tesla's 254k)[1] [1] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-ev-sales-61-q2-2022-byd-leads-market/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-ev-sales-61-q2-2...
  - eecc 4y ago
    Also Rivian tanked 50% last two months.
    - MrMan 4y ago
      Rivian makes cool looking things but will probably go out of business.
  - dukodk 4y ago
    If you look into the numbers almost 50% of BYD is PHEV, the BYD Song, their top-seller, is a PHEV. https://www.ev-volumes.com/ https://www.ev-volumes.com/ The most important part in the EV transition is still who can buy/produce the most batteries.
bamboozled 4y ago
I'd say dramatically ? He is so unlikable, foolish and actually rude to people that I wouldn't want to be driving around a car that's associated with him. It' a massive shame because I really think at some point he was a force for good and he really wanted to see progress in the world. Sadly and I mean this in the nicest way possible, he now just seems like a fraud. I actually think Tesla already had a bit of stigma associated with it, kind of a "show offs" car...but now, it's just a liability.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  I wonder why he couldn't just play the "brilliant engineer innovator titan of industry" part without the "teenage edgelord stick-it-to-the-libs Twitter troll" piece. Or was the latter always a prerequisite for his success, his ability to get eyeballs at all costs? It feels like all of that toxicity was unnecessary and he could have been impactful and transformational without it, but maybe I'm wrong.
  - faefox 4y ago
    His overall arc feels very reminiscent of Notch (of Minecraft fame). Man attains unfathomable levels of wealth and fame and decides to use their bully pulpit to explain to the world how they're the victims, actually.
    - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
      Yeah. I wonder if there's something to attaining that level of success that leads people to isolation, extreme opinions, and falling out of touch with reality.
      - glaslong 4y ago
        Perhaps an inward effect of the Rougon-Macquart coefficient — corollary to the outward the light-bending phenomenon. https://twitter.com/cpriestman/status/1230821595222028288 https://twitter.com/cpriestman/status/1230821595222028288
mrtksn 4y ago
Many people don't like what the owners of Chick-fil-A are up to but apparently they do really good chicken at fair price so people keep buying it anyway. I would guess that Tesla is losing the premium they can put to their prices and that is pushing Tesla value to a transactional value. No more apologists for the build quality or features that are pay now get it next year(every year, next year), if Tesla makes good cars and sell them at good price people will buy and if they don't people won't. If can't do autonomous driving, can no longer sell autonomous driving. No more paying extra to save the planet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- aylmao 4y ago
  On the one hand, I don't doubt there's people who boycott Chick-fil-A, but in industries that sell large volumes of relatively inconsequential purchases I would assume the effect of bad PR is less. If I'm hungry and I'm at the airport I'll grab something that's quick and convenient. My choice might not be the best, but whatever, I'm in a hurry and I'll forget what I ate by my next meal. A car on the other hand is a purchase I'll mull over for months— I'll consider everything, because it'll involve a lot of cash and I'll live with that decision for years. On the other hand, I think you're right, and I doubt this is all just a consequence of Twitter saga. There's a lot of other forces at play here; there's more competition, Tesla keeps pushing some promised launches back, the whole stock market in general doing poorly, etc.
  - wcarss 4y ago
    Weirdly, I think you could also argue the flip side of this: - restaurant: inconsequential which I pick, won't remember the quality of the meal, likely have a few similar options, very low stakes -- why support the chain that's owned by jerks? - vs major life purchase, weigh all the pros and cons, mileage and economy and environmental impact and identity all come into play: how much long term, big picture economy would I trade to maximize my self identity? I think it works your way too -- just seems neat.
anovikov 4y ago
You mean, there's anything morally wrong about one of the world's richest people flying a private jet? There are tens of thousands of them in the world.
- kevincrane 4y ago
  For environmental reasons alone, yeah private jets are wildly unethical.
  - anovikov 4y ago
    No one wins from blatantly contradicting reality. They are a thing and everyone with some cash uses one. Many of them are people as lowly as successful engineers or owners of <100 people outsourcing shops. And here we are speaking of one of the world's richest people.
    - kevincrane 4y ago
      I mean...I'm aware that private jets exist, idk if anyone doubts their existence. I still think their usage is unethical though.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      Is your argument that private jets exist therefore you can't be judged for having one?
      - anovikov 4y ago
        No, my argument is that if people much poorer than Musk are using them routinely and no one makes a fuss about it, then it's really surprising anyone is concerned with Musk doing that.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      How does saying private jets are unethical contradict reality? I don't follow you at all... does reality only reflect things which are ethical? Surely that's not the case. What on earth could you mean?
colechristensen 4y ago
For me it’s about firing half the Twitter staff in a ridiculous way (print out your code!) and generally him behaving like a crazy entitled asshole. I would be fine owning a fun vehicle that a few people didn’t like because it was wasteful or a weird statement in one way or another but at this point everyone has an opinion about elon and it’s not like very many of them are positive. I don’t want to get mixed up in being asked to defend the antics of a deranged billionaire because of the car I own. I’m in the market for a car and Tesla definitely lost some ground in the running because of the perceived hassle of having to defend my decision to buy supporting his behavior. But to be honest, I can’t drive any Tesla to visit my parents without stopping to charge, especially in the winter so it’ll be a few years until I actually consider an electric car.
clouddrover 4y ago
> I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand Probably a lot. Musk is too closely associated with the brand. For many people, Tesla is Musk and Musk is Tesla. They've been called "Muskmobiles" in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if people also started to call them "Twitter cars".
- aaronbrethorst 4y ago
  "Musk" also means "smell," with some bad connotations.
KVFinn 4y ago
I couldn't name another current car company CEO off the top of my head, but in my head the Tesla brand = Elon Musk the person. Which now means "My pronouns are Prosecute/Fauci" or whatever the last thing he was going on about was. I'm not in the market for a car so it's hard to say how much this would sway my decision. Probably not zero though. At the very least the future of Tesla feels more erratic.
transcoderx 4y ago
What anti-inmigrant or anti-lgbt statements are you referring to?
- ulfw 4y ago
  Seriously asking or just trolling? Musk is known to be anti-LGBT: https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-gay-twitter-employee-grooming-twitter-files https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-gay-twitter-employee-gro... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/elon-musk-should-apologize-for-mocking-gender-pronouns-says-hrc.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/elon-musk-should-apologize-f... https://www.vice.com/en/article/epz8jz/elon-musk-twitter-colorado-shooting-anti-trans-reinstated https://www.vice.com/en/article/epz8jz/elon-musk-twitter-col... https://newrepublic.com/article/169112/elon-musk-anti-trans-twitter-john-br https://newrepublic.com/article/169112/elon-musk-anti-trans-... He even insinuated Pelosi's husband had gay hookers in his house! https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20221101-elon-musk-tweets-then-deletes-conspiracy-theory-post-about-the-paul-pelosi-attack https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20221101-... and that's nothing new for him: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/19/tesla-factory-workers-discrimination-claim-race-lgbt-elon-musk https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/19/tesla-fac...
  - pauljurczak 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - brigandish 4y ago
    From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments > Assume good faith. As to your claims: > Musk is known to be anti-LGBT Since when is pointing to an individual's comments who is gay and criticising them (the person or the comments) "anti-LGBT"? I'd like to see the reasoning for that one. I thought it's because Roth brings up children in questionable comments, an awful lot. YMMV. The next link's headline is "Elon Musk should apologize for mocking gender pronouns, says group that gave Tesla top LGBTQ-friendly rating" - why? Freedom of speech includes freedom to mock. Anyone wanting, nay, demanding their own pronouns is eminently mockable, trans or not. Next link's headline is "Elon Musk's Twitter Reinstates Anti-Trans Activists on Same Weekend as Club Q Attacked". Aside from that being a shameless guilt-by-association fallacy, the policy changed after Musk asked the question "Should Twitter offer a general amnesty to suspended accounts, provided that they have not broken the law or engaged in egregious spam?" Portraying a general amnesty as something targeted seems a tad misleading. Next headline: “Not content with reactivating accounts that spewed anti-trans content, Musk’s Twitter has now banned a group that organizes to protect people at LGBTQ events from far-right violence.” I had to do a bit of digging with this one. The banned group, the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club, claim they were suspended for two tweets (from the link you gave): > The reason given for its account suspension, an Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club contributor told The New Republic, was that it had violated Twitter rules against “hateful conduct,” with two tweets cited: a reply to the official account of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (“Mugging at gun point,” reads the reply to an unspecified CBP post) and another post with what seems like a retort to the perpetual conservative nonjoke about pronouns, “Every queer a riflethem.” I don't understand why that would lead to suspension. It turns out that they are part of Antifa and were involved in targeting a conservative activist[1][2]. Perhaps it is linked to tweets like the following by its leader? [3] > For legal reasons, this is a direct threat. Enjoy your kneecaps while you've got them. I can't tell. This tweet[4] from Musk in response to another thread by Ngo says: > That is a disturbing story and very concerning that Twitter took no action, despite clear violation of ToS. Report in this thread for now. So it seems possible that it may have been because those tweets were seen as threatening somehow, or for other violations that were previously, I'm tempted to write condoned but shall we say, overlooked? [1] https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557475321678647297 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557475321678647297 [2] https://humanevents.com/2022/08/10/meet-the-woman-antifa-militants-view-as-one-of-the-biggest-threats-in-texas/ https://humanevents.com/2022/08/10/meet-the-woman-antifa-mil... [3] https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557478306760597504 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557478306760597504 [4] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596071799410003969 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596071799410003969
newyankee 4y ago
He just liked a tweet which claimed that Sir Winston Churchill was not responsible for Bengal Famine. Something which I think has been mostly proven beyond a doubt.
- hardlianotion 4y ago
  That is disputed, and certainly not “beyond a doubt”, unless you are speaking in an entirely personal capacity.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > Sir Winston Churchill was not responsible for Bengal Famine I searched using this phrase and received lots of very interesting results that are in the affirmative, with lots of references from historians. I cannot rate the responses myself, nor the historians, as I am not an expert in the topic but it would seem that the topic is not settled. I'll certainly enjoy taking a look into it and seeing what I think at the end of it.
- ewanmcteagle 4y ago
  This is definitely not proven beyond a doubt. In fact it's fairly well documented that he was not the cause.
threatofrain 4y ago
There were various factors that could've gone positively or negatively that now appears to be poorly coordinated for Elon -- GOP not sweeping legislature, China manufacturing issues, competitors continue to develop, pace of market recovery, FSD beta performance, etc. Brand strength and Twitter distraction is just adding on top. That and Elon has recently reassured his shareholders twice that he wouldn't sell and then proceeded to sell billions.
ck45 4y ago
Related article on CNN: Elon Musk’s Twitter obsession isn’t the core reason for Tesla stock’s plunge https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/23/investing/elon-musk-tesla-twitter/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/23/investing/elon-musk-tesla...
- HyperSane 4y ago
  It sure didn't help.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
To me it looks like: "Musk is rude, evil, hard to work with but a product genius (Tesla, SpaceX)". Now with no direction of Twitter, fumbling features and losing customers and users, the "product genius" fell apart.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  His blunders with Paypal don’t show a genius.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Definitely not, but those aren't particularly well-known, whereas the Twitter thing is dramatically, embarrassingly, unavoidably public.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
If you are right, then this is a MASSIVE buy opportunity. 1) does anyone else have the battery and EV production capacity of Tesla? Maybe some Chinese makers ... maybe? 2) are they releasing new models and continuing to scale production? Yes. 3) is the exigent need of electrifying transportation still at red alert klaxon level? Oh yes. 4) does anyone else have as good a drivetrain tech yet? Not really, the lead is likely shrinking rapidly. The fact that twitter is impacting a company in an almost totally unrelated industrial area shows that there is massive irrationalism around Tesla.
nixcraft 4y ago
It is not just Tesla. Apple is down too, and many other famous brands are also listed. Here is more balance article: Apple and Tesla: Tech shares tumble amid supply issues https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64099654 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64099654
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
trog 4y ago
FWIW, until a few months ago, my next car was absolutely going to be a Tesla. I can't bring myself to buy one now. I'm still committed to getting an electric car as my next purchase and am slightly disappointed to take the Model 3 off the table but there are good options if you don't mind waiting.
weaksauce 4y ago
> passive-aggressive towards minorities like immigrants and LGBT people Are you kidding? he's legitimately full on aggressive to them with his tweets and retweets. the entire cruelty about pronouns is so baseless it's almost unimaginable. say you were born larry but you didn't like that name so you decided james fit you better so you ask people to call you james. that's it. I don't want to be called larry so call me james because that fits my internal idea of myself more. it's easy just call people what they want to be called. you can call them whatever you want but you're an asshole if you are calling them a different name than what they want to be called and have asked you to. and this isn't even "they are going to ostracize me if i mess it up once" kinda thing... they are aware that people get it wrong just like people getting your name wrong. this is about being deliberately cruel to people you don't think matter. it's absurd.
- tourist2d 4y ago
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  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    His own daughter never wants to talk to him again and [in]directly called him a bigot. It’s pretty cruel to be such a dick to your child.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      Or she could have been brainwashed by certain political movements. Hard to tell who's at fault without hearing sides.
      - freejazz 4y ago
        [flagged]
        lostmsu 4y ago
        I mean without details it is a reasonable alternative. Why would it not be? I have teenagers around, and the effect of woke movement seems excessive on some of them. To me even your comment is an example, because you made a personal attack and did not substantiate it at all.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
forgingahead 4y ago
Ah, the old HN trope of "nice guys succeed in business because I myself am a nice guy, and tough operators with rough edges are all freakshows and got their success through thuggery and criminal activities". Tesla was already over-priced on any basic metric. Elon is a phenomenal operator, regardless of whether you like his tweets or not. And if you follow the media coverage of any public figure on how you're "supposed" to think about them, I would recommend taking a breather and re-evaluating to whom you give root access to your mind to.
lokimedes 4y ago
Heartbreaking is how it feels. I’m going to admit that I have been an Elon fanboy since he launched SpaceX. He seemed to be the purest incarnation of the entrepreneurs of the last century (Edison, Westinghouse, etc.) especially compared with the bluster of the non-tech-tech people that really just did Web (or CS on a good day). Now, he has turned into Howard Hughes with a megaphone, and it is not pretty. There are no excuses for idolizing humans, the folly is my own, he is just a man after all..
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  How did you come to terms with how he failed upward with X.com and Paypal? He tried to ruin Paypal but was rewarded with $180M. SpaceX and Tesla being Elon’s wouldn’t be a thing.
  - lokimedes 4y ago
    I think it’s basically my internal valuations of the endeavors. Building a payment facilitator seems like a side hustle compared to the space/energy initiatives. That said, X/PayPal certainly helped a good number of people bootstrap more ambitious companies.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      The emphasis in that comment was on Musk's failure with X; he was kicked out of PayPal and only collected the money after he was long gone.
  - tim333 4y ago
    That's a bit unfair - he had shares in the combined X.com and Paypal which did well and so he made money when it was sold. Fair enough he was replaced as CEO after a brief stint but it doesn't really matter that much.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I'll be happy to bet that there were quite a few ordinary employees of Paypal that had more of a positive effect on that outcome than Elon but that were compensated to a very small fraction for their efforts.
marricks 4y ago
> I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand. Definitely affects mine, I'd buy literally any other electric car now. But... Tesla had a ridiculous valuation anyways compared to profits. They were always a long gamble for anyone with money. Given bonds are more attractive now, makes sense it'd tank.
jimt1234 4y ago
I'm probably giving Elon too much credit, but I think his Twitter takeover and subsequent offensive behavior is a part of a concerted effort to improve Tesla's brand in red states, specifically Trump Country. The Tweets that many view as "cold-hearted" are embraced/worshipped in Trump Country. The Tweets about Nancy Pelosi's husband and "pronouns are prosecute/Fauci" are perfect examples, just to name a few. Why would Elon care about his and Tesla's brands in red states? Well, it seems Tesla has pretty much saturated the tech-forward, eco-friendly, upper-middle-class car buying demographic. Everyone in SV/CA that was gonna buy a Tesla has already bought one. Time to find new markets: red states. Red states have generally had a very low opinion of EVs. Elon is just trying to sell the sizzle, not the steak. He could promote all the cool tech of Tesla vehicles, but it would generally fall on deaf ears. Coal rollers don't care about battery tech, but they do care about owning the libs, and Elon's their guy now. Furthermore, Tesla's Cybertruck is gonna ship eventually, and its destiny is Trump Country. The bulletproof panels, unbreakable glass and ginormous size are all features that resonate in red states. I'm sure many Cybertruck owners will utilize all the cool features, but I'm guessing that most just want attention, just like those obnoxious Hummer H2 owners from 20 years ago. Then there's the Tesla Semi that will need to be at least accepted in red states in order to be successful. And that's just cars/trucks. Tesla is also expanding its power grids, and I think Elon views red states like Texas and Florida as integral to this. Red state governments will be a lot more receptive to Tesla's power grids if Elon is already considered political gold. There's a lot of opportunity in Texas, and I think Elon wants to get to the front of the line. And lastly, I think the icing on the cake for Elon is replacing Trump as the King Of Owning The Libs, effectively neutralizing Trump's greatest strength, making him seem old and lame. My understanding is that Elon butted heads with Trump when he was president, and now he's doing everything he can to keep Trump out of the White House, either hoping to get a more friendly Administration or simply to get back at Trump. Or, then again, maybe Elon's just a jerk with a bunch of money.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  This would involve Elon playing “4D Chess”. No reason to think that unless meritocracy existed.
- pasttense01 4y ago
apexalpha 4y ago
For me the most important bit is that if he had any checks and balances at Tesla / SpaceX / life in general they would've reigned in his Twitter behaviour. Any normal CEO would've had a big discussion with his supervisory board if he damaged his companies' brand like this in Twitter. The fact that he seemingly doesn't have any accountability on it worries me the most.
cosmodisk 4y ago
Most billionaires figured this out ages ago: thread very carefully when speaking publicly,or don't say anything at all unless it somehow benefits you down the line. There were litterly cases of large companies collapsing because some arrogant tool at the top couldn't keep their mouth shut. I never was a fan of him, but apart from being a huge douche, he's unpredictable,so how could I invest in anything behind him if he goes from zero to hundred and then back multiple times a day?
- lostmsu 4y ago
  If anything, why would you prefer a billionaire who keeps to himself, and is afraid to speak his mind?
  - cosmodisk 4y ago
    I don't prefer either type, I was simply stating the way it is.
  - coke12 4y ago
    In general we want the richest and most powerful members of society to behave predictably, and ideally rationally, so that we can make long term plans without worrying about the fickleness of a small number of people. We have a lot of problems to solve over the next few decades and chaos agents in the billionaire ranks won't help. Global economic growth depends on predictability. If we want another chaos agent in charge we should elect them democratically.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      I think predictability is irrelevant as long as change is positive. I am OK with unpredictability of having SpaceX for instance.
nindalf 4y ago
I think we might be overindexed on his Twitter antics. Yes, he’s proven himself an incompetent moron for not realising the difficulty of running Twitter despite repeatedly being told it’s difficult. But this was only noticed by terminally online people and those adjacent to them. It’s like the panel gaps on Tesla cars. Yes, they exist. Yes, they could indicate worse QA issues with the car. But for most part, this is something that only bothers car reviewers. Ordinary consumers don’t notice it and still buy Teslas thinking they’re quality cars. Ultimately, what impacts Teslas sales isn’t his cruelty of the last few months. It’s something much more mundane - other manufacturers make decent electric cars now. And their charging infra is comparable to Tesla’s.
ck2 4y ago
I think the consumer reports rating did more damage than he could but he didn't help. (27 out of 28 reliability report) But it is incomprehensible to imagine having double-digit BILLIONS cash in the bank, not on paper, in hand, and doing what he did to twitter? It would be like the President of the United States daily tweeting insane petty crass things. He obviously had competent people running SpaceX, Tesla, because all those products are too technical for him to be in charge exclusively. But with twitter nope nope, it was an ego trip, hitting every branch on the way down. I cannot comprehend having that much comfort in life and THAT is what you do with your time. Each state in the US has a billionaire but most names are unknown. Not him.
jacquesm 4y ago
The casual cruelty is what really gets me. To treat other people as though they are less than toilet paper is such a terrible thing to do.

hrrsn 4y ago

My mother has been in the market for a new car for the last few months. I was keen on a Tesla until the shitposter in chief took the reins. We bought an Audi last week instead.

alvah 4y ago
Wait until you find out the history of Audi (and its parent company VW)
- werdnapk 4y ago
  Any reason why people have to keep bringing this up? At this point, who really cares.
  - alvah 4y ago
    Audi or VW are poor choices if virtue signaling is the aim. Almost any other Western car company would have been better.
    - FatActor 4y ago
      Comparing corporations from 80 years ago under a regime that was toppled to a shitty CEO from today is utterly meaningless. The point of conscientious spending is to affect change. Not buying an Audi today does not send a message to Nazi Germany because it no longer exists (and it wasn't even Audi, it was their predecessor). Not buying a Tesla today sends a message to Tesla, because it exists. Make sense?
      - alvah 4y ago
        "Didn't buy a Tesla" = sends a message to Tesla "Didn't buy a Tesla, bought an Audi" = poorly-executed virtue signal attempt.
        hrrsn 4y ago
        If I was attempting virtue signalling, I wouldn't have bought an ICE over an EV.
        alvah 4y ago
        Audi sell EVs as well as ICEs. You said you’d bought an Audi after considering a Tesla. As I said, poorly-executed virtue signal.
        watwut 4y ago
        Really not. Only full on anti-capitalist care about origins of companies deep into last century. And even they are doing it for larger capitalism bad reasons. Plus there is nothing wrong with virtue signaling, really. It beats vice signaling by miles and it beats passivity too.
        FatActor 4y ago
        Why is virtue signalling bad? It's demonstrating that you care about something related to human dignity. Do you really think that is so awful that you laugh at it? What would have been better virtue signalling?
    - deleted 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - meepmorp 4y ago
    Because they don't have a better point to make, so they're going for a gotcha
- hef19898 4y ago
  Depends on what history you talk about? The Nazis are gone for 80 years and quite a few of the emission scandal managers are in jail.
  - alvah 4y ago
    When is the official cutoff, for a company founded by the Nazi party to be used as the positive side of a virtue-signaling comparison? Obviously less than 80 years?
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - meepmorp 4y ago
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      - alvah 4y ago
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- vadym909 4y ago
  This makes no sense. VW is a public company, employing regular people, making good cars in Germany and elsewhere. No one brings up the past for Japanese, so not sure what the logic for punishing VW is?
  - alvah 4y ago
    Who is punishing VW? I drive one (my 3rd) & it's a great car. I'm not using it to signal my virtue though, and I am suggesting it's a poor choice for that purpose.
    - voltaireodactyl 4y ago
      Having and/or abiding by personal principles is hardly virtue signally — to the best of my understanding, it’s just called having a moral compass.
      - plorkyeran 4y ago
        There is a certain kind of person who does not believe that anyone actually has morals, and so interprets any form of having a moral compass as "virtue signaling".
      - MrMan 4y ago
        "moral compass" is something leftists invented to try to constrain the freedom of value creators. morals are an imaginary thing - ever read Atlas Shrugged? We all need to wake up - the left are trying to destroy capitalism and free speech with their "morals". Next they will say its wrong to cull the weak en mass to make room for more fit individuals.
        voltaireodactyl 4y ago
        Of course I read Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, et all -- basic high school reading, hasn't everyone? I actually won first place in that stupid prize they set out, and all I had to do was pretend Rand wasn't a total dunce (which happily turned out to be excellent training for the business world). Both novels, like the majority of Rand's work, are absolutely cracking as wish-fulfillment fantasies for folks without social skills who dream of having kinky, angular sex while demanding that they be made BusinessPapa for perfecting some mechanical process. Ignoring, of course, that perfection in a vacuum means very little; it is the ability to use said process in the context of society that makes it 1) useful and 2) profitable (although I suppose Rand would order those different :) Who is John Galt? The kid who took his ball and went home when the other children didn't let him make all the rules. In short, I do not find Objectivism to be a useful rubric when it comes to morality. Frankly, Objectivism is incoherent except when read as a wish-fullfilment fantasy as described above, as the life of the originator handily demonstrates. Success does not come from minimizing the contributions of everyone else -- that way lies loneliness, hypocrisy, and a reliance on the teat of the State. As I deeply value my freedom and lack of debt, I could never adhere to such a unprofitable and vacuous quote unquote philosophy. With regard to "moral compass" being a leftist invention -- such an accusation betrays precisely the sort of total willful ignorance I have come to expect from self-proclaimed Objectivists (akin to RATM being Atlas Shrugged devotee Paul Ryan -- aka the literal machine --'s favorite band). Suffice it to say that the phrase "moral compass" appears long before the current political paradigm -- and the concept to which it refers is literally older than written language itself. Have you read any books OTHER than Atlas Shrugged? If not, I would be happy to provide a few suggestions to get you started! And while I'm dispensing unsolicited-but-potentially-life-changing advice: If I were you, I'd hesitate to out myself in public forums as being unfamiliar with an inner sense of morality. Most people prefer a social circle that views their friendship as something greater than a business arrangement built on symbiotic profit. I would ALSO hesitate before living my life in the accordance with the principles of an parasitic welfare queen like Ayn Rand, but that's an entire conversation in and of itself.
- bongoman37 4y ago
  [dead]
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  How many people are alive who worked for VW in 1937? I skimmed Audi’s wiki. What does it have to do with Nazis? Because it was an active company during the rise of Nazis? Yeah of course. The company was run by capitalists. Just like most companies. We know socialists weren’t running stuff. They were executed.
  - alvah 4y ago
    VW was founded by the Nazis, and the SS ran labor camps where prisoners were forced to work for Auto Union. I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned in Audi's wiki, they did make an announcement about it several years ago. I find it amusing that this company seems to be the go-to for those refusing to buy a Tesla for ethical reasons (see also: Alyssa Milano recently announcing she sold her Tesla to buy a VW).
    - karmakurtisaani 4y ago
      I don't think VW has benefited any (openly) Nazi people in several decades, so this argument seems just really silly.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Please. If you want to make this particular argument you'd be better off doing it for Opel than VW.
      - alvah 4y ago
        Tell the OP to buy an Opel instead of an Audi then.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        You are not making a whole lot of sense in this thread.

renewiltord 4y ago

A good test for one's instincts is to guess what Tesla NPS is. Then look up estimates.

HyperSane 4y ago
That isn't a brand, it is a cult. Tesla's are not even that good of cars. They feel really cheap.

theflyingelvis 4y ago

I’ve wondered the same.

linkjuice4all 4y ago

It's a shame since Tesla and SpaceX both seemed to have reached maturity beyond the start-up/celebrity CEO stage. Yes - they're both facing teething issues, supply chain problems, demand, etc - but it'd be easier to write off these drops if the CEO wasn't busy with some glorified SMS service.

aylmao 4y ago
IMO Tesla reached "maturity" with two issues: - It was so incredibly overvalued before being mature, that once it actually started to deliver on some promises its price shot up even further from where it should be. - It reached "maturity" too late. Other car makers have caught up. Consumers can buy a Ford F-150 Lightning, an Rivian R1T or a GMC Hummer EV today, but not a Cybertruck. Kia, Nissan, Mini, Porsche, Audi, etc have great EV offerings. Tesla isn't even the biggest seller of electric cars in the world anymore (it's BYD, 354k sales vs Tesla's 254k)[1] [1] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-ev-sales-61-q2-2022-byd-leads-market/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-ev-sales-61-q2-2...
- eecc 4y ago
  Also Rivian tanked 50% last two months.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    Rivian makes cool looking things but will probably go out of business.
- dukodk 4y ago
  If you look into the numbers almost 50% of BYD is PHEV, the BYD Song, their top-seller, is a PHEV. https://www.ev-volumes.com/ https://www.ev-volumes.com/ The most important part in the EV transition is still who can buy/produce the most batteries.

bamboozled 4y ago

I'd say dramatically ? He is so unlikable, foolish and actually rude to people that I wouldn't want to be driving around a car that's associated with him. It' a massive shame because I really think at some point he was a force for good and he really wanted to see progress in the world. Sadly and I mean this in the nicest way possible, he now just seems like a fraud. I actually think Tesla already had a bit of stigma associated with it, kind of a "show offs" car...but now, it's just a liability.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
I wonder why he couldn't just play the "brilliant engineer innovator titan of industry" part without the "teenage edgelord stick-it-to-the-libs Twitter troll" piece. Or was the latter always a prerequisite for his success, his ability to get eyeballs at all costs? It feels like all of that toxicity was unnecessary and he could have been impactful and transformational without it, but maybe I'm wrong.
- faefox 4y ago
  His overall arc feels very reminiscent of Notch (of Minecraft fame). Man attains unfathomable levels of wealth and fame and decides to use their bully pulpit to explain to the world how they're the victims, actually.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
    Yeah. I wonder if there's something to attaining that level of success that leads people to isolation, extreme opinions, and falling out of touch with reality.
    - glaslong 4y ago
      Perhaps an inward effect of the Rougon-Macquart coefficient — corollary to the outward the light-bending phenomenon. https://twitter.com/cpriestman/status/1230821595222028288 https://twitter.com/cpriestman/status/1230821595222028288

mrtksn 4y ago

Many people don't like what the owners of Chick-fil-A are up to but apparently they do really good chicken at fair price so people keep buying it anyway. I would guess that Tesla is losing the premium they can put to their prices and that is pushing Tesla value to a transactional value. No more apologists for the build quality or features that are pay now get it next year(every year, next year), if Tesla makes good cars and sell them at good price people will buy and if they don't people won't. If can't do autonomous driving, can no longer sell autonomous driving. No more paying extra to save the planet.

deleted 4y ago
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aylmao 4y ago
On the one hand, I don't doubt there's people who boycott Chick-fil-A, but in industries that sell large volumes of relatively inconsequential purchases I would assume the effect of bad PR is less. If I'm hungry and I'm at the airport I'll grab something that's quick and convenient. My choice might not be the best, but whatever, I'm in a hurry and I'll forget what I ate by my next meal. A car on the other hand is a purchase I'll mull over for months— I'll consider everything, because it'll involve a lot of cash and I'll live with that decision for years. On the other hand, I think you're right, and I doubt this is all just a consequence of Twitter saga. There's a lot of other forces at play here; there's more competition, Tesla keeps pushing some promised launches back, the whole stock market in general doing poorly, etc.
- wcarss 4y ago
  Weirdly, I think you could also argue the flip side of this: - restaurant: inconsequential which I pick, won't remember the quality of the meal, likely have a few similar options, very low stakes -- why support the chain that's owned by jerks? - vs major life purchase, weigh all the pros and cons, mileage and economy and environmental impact and identity all come into play: how much long term, big picture economy would I trade to maximize my self identity? I think it works your way too -- just seems neat.

anovikov 4y ago

You mean, there's anything morally wrong about one of the world's richest people flying a private jet? There are tens of thousands of them in the world.

kevincrane 4y ago
For environmental reasons alone, yeah private jets are wildly unethical.
- anovikov 4y ago
  No one wins from blatantly contradicting reality. They are a thing and everyone with some cash uses one. Many of them are people as lowly as successful engineers or owners of <100 people outsourcing shops. And here we are speaking of one of the world's richest people.
  - kevincrane 4y ago
    I mean...I'm aware that private jets exist, idk if anyone doubts their existence. I still think their usage is unethical though.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    Is your argument that private jets exist therefore you can't be judged for having one?
    - anovikov 4y ago
      No, my argument is that if people much poorer than Musk are using them routinely and no one makes a fuss about it, then it's really surprising anyone is concerned with Musk doing that.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    How does saying private jets are unethical contradict reality? I don't follow you at all... does reality only reflect things which are ethical? Surely that's not the case. What on earth could you mean?

colechristensen 4y ago

For me it’s about firing half the Twitter staff in a ridiculous way (print out your code!) and generally him behaving like a crazy entitled asshole. I would be fine owning a fun vehicle that a few people didn’t like because it was wasteful or a weird statement in one way or another but at this point everyone has an opinion about elon and it’s not like very many of them are positive. I don’t want to get mixed up in being asked to defend the antics of a deranged billionaire because of the car I own. I’m in the market for a car and Tesla definitely lost some ground in the running because of the perceived hassle of having to defend my decision to buy supporting his behavior. But to be honest, I can’t drive any Tesla to visit my parents without stopping to charge, especially in the winter so it’ll be a few years until I actually consider an electric car.

clouddrover 4y ago

> I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand Probably a lot. Musk is too closely associated with the brand. For many people, Tesla is Musk and Musk is Tesla. They've been called "Muskmobiles" in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if people also started to call them "Twitter cars".

aaronbrethorst 4y ago
"Musk" also means "smell," with some bad connotations.

KVFinn 4y ago

I couldn't name another current car company CEO off the top of my head, but in my head the Tesla brand = Elon Musk the person. Which now means "My pronouns are Prosecute/Fauci" or whatever the last thing he was going on about was. I'm not in the market for a car so it's hard to say how much this would sway my decision. Probably not zero though. At the very least the future of Tesla feels more erratic.

transcoderx 4y ago

What anti-inmigrant or anti-lgbt statements are you referring to?

ulfw 4y ago
Seriously asking or just trolling? Musk is known to be anti-LGBT: https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-gay-twitter-employee-grooming-twitter-files https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-gay-twitter-employee-gro... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/elon-musk-should-apologize-for-mocking-gender-pronouns-says-hrc.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/elon-musk-should-apologize-f... https://www.vice.com/en/article/epz8jz/elon-musk-twitter-colorado-shooting-anti-trans-reinstated https://www.vice.com/en/article/epz8jz/elon-musk-twitter-col... https://newrepublic.com/article/169112/elon-musk-anti-trans-twitter-john-br https://newrepublic.com/article/169112/elon-musk-anti-trans-... He even insinuated Pelosi's husband had gay hookers in his house! https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20221101-elon-musk-tweets-then-deletes-conspiracy-theory-post-about-the-paul-pelosi-attack https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20221101-... and that's nothing new for him: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/19/tesla-factory-workers-discrimination-claim-race-lgbt-elon-musk https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/19/tesla-fac...
- pauljurczak 4y ago
  [flagged]
- brigandish 4y ago
  From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments > Assume good faith. As to your claims: > Musk is known to be anti-LGBT Since when is pointing to an individual's comments who is gay and criticising them (the person or the comments) "anti-LGBT"? I'd like to see the reasoning for that one. I thought it's because Roth brings up children in questionable comments, an awful lot. YMMV. The next link's headline is "Elon Musk should apologize for mocking gender pronouns, says group that gave Tesla top LGBTQ-friendly rating" - why? Freedom of speech includes freedom to mock. Anyone wanting, nay, demanding their own pronouns is eminently mockable, trans or not. Next link's headline is "Elon Musk's Twitter Reinstates Anti-Trans Activists on Same Weekend as Club Q Attacked". Aside from that being a shameless guilt-by-association fallacy, the policy changed after Musk asked the question "Should Twitter offer a general amnesty to suspended accounts, provided that they have not broken the law or engaged in egregious spam?" Portraying a general amnesty as something targeted seems a tad misleading. Next headline: “Not content with reactivating accounts that spewed anti-trans content, Musk’s Twitter has now banned a group that organizes to protect people at LGBTQ events from far-right violence.” I had to do a bit of digging with this one. The banned group, the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club, claim they were suspended for two tweets (from the link you gave): > The reason given for its account suspension, an Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club contributor told The New Republic, was that it had violated Twitter rules against “hateful conduct,” with two tweets cited: a reply to the official account of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (“Mugging at gun point,” reads the reply to an unspecified CBP post) and another post with what seems like a retort to the perpetual conservative nonjoke about pronouns, “Every queer a riflethem.” I don't understand why that would lead to suspension. It turns out that they are part of Antifa and were involved in targeting a conservative activist[1][2]. Perhaps it is linked to tweets like the following by its leader? [3] > For legal reasons, this is a direct threat. Enjoy your kneecaps while you've got them. I can't tell. This tweet[4] from Musk in response to another thread by Ngo says: > That is a disturbing story and very concerning that Twitter took no action, despite clear violation of ToS. Report in this thread for now. So it seems possible that it may have been because those tweets were seen as threatening somehow, or for other violations that were previously, I'm tempted to write condoned but shall we say, overlooked? [1] https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557475321678647297 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557475321678647297 [2] https://humanevents.com/2022/08/10/meet-the-woman-antifa-militants-view-as-one-of-the-biggest-threats-in-texas/ https://humanevents.com/2022/08/10/meet-the-woman-antifa-mil... [3] https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557478306760597504 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1557478306760597504 [4] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596071799410003969 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1596071799410003969

newyankee 4y ago

He just liked a tweet which claimed that Sir Winston Churchill was not responsible for Bengal Famine. Something which I think has been mostly proven beyond a doubt.

hardlianotion 4y ago
That is disputed, and certainly not “beyond a doubt”, unless you are speaking in an entirely personal capacity.
brigandish 4y ago
> Sir Winston Churchill was not responsible for Bengal Famine I searched using this phrase and received lots of very interesting results that are in the affirmative, with lots of references from historians. I cannot rate the responses myself, nor the historians, as I am not an expert in the topic but it would seem that the topic is not settled. I'll certainly enjoy taking a look into it and seeing what I think at the end of it.
ewanmcteagle 4y ago
This is definitely not proven beyond a doubt. In fact it's fairly well documented that he was not the cause.

threatofrain 4y ago

There were various factors that could've gone positively or negatively that now appears to be poorly coordinated for Elon -- GOP not sweeping legislature, China manufacturing issues, competitors continue to develop, pace of market recovery, FSD beta performance, etc. Brand strength and Twitter distraction is just adding on top. That and Elon has recently reassured his shareholders twice that he wouldn't sell and then proceeded to sell billions.

ck45 4y ago

Related article on CNN: Elon Musk’s Twitter obsession isn’t the core reason for Tesla stock’s plunge https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/23/investing/elon-musk-tesla-twitter/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/23/investing/elon-musk-tesla...

HyperSane 4y ago
It sure didn't help.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

To me it looks like: "Musk is rude, evil, hard to work with but a product genius (Tesla, SpaceX)". Now with no direction of Twitter, fumbling features and losing customers and users, the "product genius" fell apart.

skinnymuch 4y ago
His blunders with Paypal don’t show a genius.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  Definitely not, but those aren't particularly well-known, whereas the Twitter thing is dramatically, embarrassingly, unavoidably public.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

If you are right, then this is a MASSIVE buy opportunity. 1) does anyone else have the battery and EV production capacity of Tesla? Maybe some Chinese makers ... maybe? 2) are they releasing new models and continuing to scale production? Yes. 3) is the exigent need of electrifying transportation still at red alert klaxon level? Oh yes. 4) does anyone else have as good a drivetrain tech yet? Not really, the lead is likely shrinking rapidly. The fact that twitter is impacting a company in an almost totally unrelated industrial area shows that there is massive irrationalism around Tesla.

nixcraft 4y ago

It is not just Tesla. Apple is down too, and many other famous brands are also listed. Here is more balance article: Apple and Tesla: Tech shares tumble amid supply issues https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64099654 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64099654

deleted 4y ago
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trog 4y ago

FWIW, until a few months ago, my next car was absolutely going to be a Tesla. I can't bring myself to buy one now. I'm still committed to getting an electric car as my next purchase and am slightly disappointed to take the Model 3 off the table but there are good options if you don't mind waiting.

weaksauce 4y ago

> passive-aggressive towards minorities like immigrants and LGBT people Are you kidding? he's legitimately full on aggressive to them with his tweets and retweets. the entire cruelty about pronouns is so baseless it's almost unimaginable. say you were born larry but you didn't like that name so you decided james fit you better so you ask people to call you james. that's it. I don't want to be called larry so call me james because that fits my internal idea of myself more. it's easy just call people what they want to be called. you can call them whatever you want but you're an asshole if you are calling them a different name than what they want to be called and have asked you to. and this isn't even "they are going to ostracize me if i mess it up once" kinda thing... they are aware that people get it wrong just like people getting your name wrong. this is about being deliberately cruel to people you don't think matter. it's absurd.

tourist2d 4y ago
[flagged]
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  His own daughter never wants to talk to him again and [in]directly called him a bigot. It’s pretty cruel to be such a dick to your child.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    Or she could have been brainwashed by certain political movements. Hard to tell who's at fault without hearing sides.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - lostmsu 4y ago
        I mean without details it is a reasonable alternative. Why would it not be? I have teenagers around, and the effect of woke movement seems excessive on some of them. To me even your comment is an example, because you made a personal attack and did not substantiate it at all.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

forgingahead 4y ago

Ah, the old HN trope of "nice guys succeed in business because I myself am a nice guy, and tough operators with rough edges are all freakshows and got their success through thuggery and criminal activities". Tesla was already over-priced on any basic metric. Elon is a phenomenal operator, regardless of whether you like his tweets or not. And if you follow the media coverage of any public figure on how you're "supposed" to think about them, I would recommend taking a breather and re-evaluating to whom you give root access to your mind to.

lokimedes 4y ago

Heartbreaking is how it feels. I’m going to admit that I have been an Elon fanboy since he launched SpaceX. He seemed to be the purest incarnation of the entrepreneurs of the last century (Edison, Westinghouse, etc.) especially compared with the bluster of the non-tech-tech people that really just did Web (or CS on a good day). Now, he has turned into Howard Hughes with a megaphone, and it is not pretty. There are no excuses for idolizing humans, the folly is my own, he is just a man after all..

skinnymuch 4y ago
How did you come to terms with how he failed upward with X.com and Paypal? He tried to ruin Paypal but was rewarded with $180M. SpaceX and Tesla being Elon’s wouldn’t be a thing.
- lokimedes 4y ago
  I think it’s basically my internal valuations of the endeavors. Building a payment facilitator seems like a side hustle compared to the space/energy initiatives. That said, X/PayPal certainly helped a good number of people bootstrap more ambitious companies.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    The emphasis in that comment was on Musk's failure with X; he was kicked out of PayPal and only collected the money after he was long gone.
- tim333 4y ago
  That's a bit unfair - he had shares in the combined X.com and Paypal which did well and so he made money when it was sold. Fair enough he was replaced as CEO after a brief stint but it doesn't really matter that much.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I'll be happy to bet that there were quite a few ordinary employees of Paypal that had more of a positive effect on that outcome than Elon but that were compensated to a very small fraction for their efforts.

marricks 4y ago

> I wonder how much Musks behavior on Twitter over the last months impacted the Tesla brand. Definitely affects mine, I'd buy literally any other electric car now. But... Tesla had a ridiculous valuation anyways compared to profits. They were always a long gamble for anyone with money. Given bonds are more attractive now, makes sense it'd tank.

jimt1234 4y ago

I'm probably giving Elon too much credit, but I think his Twitter takeover and subsequent offensive behavior is a part of a concerted effort to improve Tesla's brand in red states, specifically Trump Country. The Tweets that many view as "cold-hearted" are embraced/worshipped in Trump Country. The Tweets about Nancy Pelosi's husband and "pronouns are prosecute/Fauci" are perfect examples, just to name a few. Why would Elon care about his and Tesla's brands in red states? Well, it seems Tesla has pretty much saturated the tech-forward, eco-friendly, upper-middle-class car buying demographic. Everyone in SV/CA that was gonna buy a Tesla has already bought one. Time to find new markets: red states. Red states have generally had a very low opinion of EVs. Elon is just trying to sell the sizzle, not the steak. He could promote all the cool tech of Tesla vehicles, but it would generally fall on deaf ears. Coal rollers don't care about battery tech, but they do care about owning the libs, and Elon's their guy now. Furthermore, Tesla's Cybertruck is gonna ship eventually, and its destiny is Trump Country. The bulletproof panels, unbreakable glass and ginormous size are all features that resonate in red states. I'm sure many Cybertruck owners will utilize all the cool features, but I'm guessing that most just want attention, just like those obnoxious Hummer H2 owners from 20 years ago. Then there's the Tesla Semi that will need to be at least accepted in red states in order to be successful. And that's just cars/trucks. Tesla is also expanding its power grids, and I think Elon views red states like Texas and Florida as integral to this. Red state governments will be a lot more receptive to Tesla's power grids if Elon is already considered political gold. There's a lot of opportunity in Texas, and I think Elon wants to get to the front of the line. And lastly, I think the icing on the cake for Elon is replacing Trump as the King Of Owning The Libs, effectively neutralizing Trump's greatest strength, making him seem old and lame. My understanding is that Elon butted heads with Trump when he was president, and now he's doing everything he can to keep Trump out of the White House, either hoping to get a more friendly Administration or simply to get back at Trump. Or, then again, maybe Elon's just a jerk with a bunch of money.

skinnymuch 4y ago
This would involve Elon playing “4D Chess”. No reason to think that unless meritocracy existed.
pasttense01 4y ago

apexalpha 4y ago

For me the most important bit is that if he had any checks and balances at Tesla / SpaceX / life in general they would've reigned in his Twitter behaviour. Any normal CEO would've had a big discussion with his supervisory board if he damaged his companies' brand like this in Twitter. The fact that he seemingly doesn't have any accountability on it worries me the most.

cosmodisk 4y ago

Most billionaires figured this out ages ago: thread very carefully when speaking publicly,or don't say anything at all unless it somehow benefits you down the line. There were litterly cases of large companies collapsing because some arrogant tool at the top couldn't keep their mouth shut. I never was a fan of him, but apart from being a huge douche, he's unpredictable,so how could I invest in anything behind him if he goes from zero to hundred and then back multiple times a day?

lostmsu 4y ago
If anything, why would you prefer a billionaire who keeps to himself, and is afraid to speak his mind?
- cosmodisk 4y ago
  I don't prefer either type, I was simply stating the way it is.
- coke12 4y ago
  In general we want the richest and most powerful members of society to behave predictably, and ideally rationally, so that we can make long term plans without worrying about the fickleness of a small number of people. We have a lot of problems to solve over the next few decades and chaos agents in the billionaire ranks won't help. Global economic growth depends on predictability. If we want another chaos agent in charge we should elect them democratically.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    I think predictability is irrelevant as long as change is positive. I am OK with unpredictability of having SpaceX for instance.

nindalf 4y ago

I think we might be overindexed on his Twitter antics. Yes, he’s proven himself an incompetent moron for not realising the difficulty of running Twitter despite repeatedly being told it’s difficult. But this was only noticed by terminally online people and those adjacent to them. It’s like the panel gaps on Tesla cars. Yes, they exist. Yes, they could indicate worse QA issues with the car. But for most part, this is something that only bothers car reviewers. Ordinary consumers don’t notice it and still buy Teslas thinking they’re quality cars. Ultimately, what impacts Teslas sales isn’t his cruelty of the last few months. It’s something much more mundane - other manufacturers make decent electric cars now. And their charging infra is comparable to Tesla’s.

ck2 4y ago

I think the consumer reports rating did more damage than he could but he didn't help. (27 out of 28 reliability report) But it is incomprehensible to imagine having double-digit BILLIONS cash in the bank, not on paper, in hand, and doing what he did to twitter? It would be like the President of the United States daily tweeting insane petty crass things. He obviously had competent people running SpaceX, Tesla, because all those products are too technical for him to be in charge exclusively. But with twitter nope nope, it was an ego trip, hitting every branch on the way down. I cannot comprehend having that much comfort in life and THAT is what you do with your time. Each state in the US has a billionaire but most names are unknown. Not him.

jacquesm 4y ago

The casual cruelty is what really gets me. To treat other people as though they are less than toilet paper is such a terrible thing to do.