17 ms·

china has shown your EEZ is only exclusive if you can enforce it

rdl 4y ago
Guess what is the second most powerful navy in the world (and is a very close ally of the most powerful navy in the world?). Japan's "maritime self defense force".
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Not sure the US is eager to get into a kinetic conflict with China, which actually has a larger navy, and more importantly, is in their own front yard rather than 10,000km from home.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lmm 4y ago
    The US has a large naval presence in the area, not least the ships based in Japan. No-one wants a shooting war, but the US is eager to keep China contained, and enforcing the EEZ rules serves that interest.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    US Navy is stationed closer than the Chinese navy. The US’s seventh fleet is permanently based out of Yokosuka Japan. Only US fleet not based out of somewhere in the US.
    - jakear 4y ago
      The fifth fleet is based out of Bahrain.
    - largepeepee 4y ago
      Not true. Besides 7th in Japan, there's 6th fleet is in Italy and 5th in Bahrain. So really half the US Navy is always stationed overseas with the first fleet being inactive.
  - smt88 4y ago
    > China, which actually has a larger navy The US has a far more advanced navy (a large proportion of Chinese ships are patrol ships without much tactical significance) and many more aircraft carriers. Aircraft are extremely important in naval conflicts.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
      Yawn. China itself is the larger aircraft carrier. They also have advanced rocketry, which may render the other ones obsolete.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      China doesn't need aircraft carriers though. They aren't trying to fight wars 10,000km from home. They have hundreds of air bases in China.
      - smt88 4y ago
        The US literally can't fight a war 10,000 km from "home" (a friendly country with military bases) because we have an enormous number of bases. Most importantly, we have tons of bases in Japan and South Korea[1]. 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-military-presence-around-the-world-interactive https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-mili...
        missedthecue 4y ago
        One task force out of Japan is probably insufficient against the entire PLAN
    - SkyMarshal 4y ago
      > (a large proportion of Chinese ships are patrol ships without much tactical significance) If each one is armed with a few anti-ship missiles, a swarm attack from many different directions might be a real threat to a carrier group. You either waste a ton of ordinance taking them all out, or some portion are able to launch against you.
  - baybal2 4y ago
    [dead]
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Most of the ships aren’t ocean going vessels. They’re coastal ships.
    - dirtyid 4y ago
      PRC has more proper blue water surface and subsurface combatants than USN currently and has for years. Many of which more modern. Last years count of "ocean going" / blue water capable is like ~350 PLAN vs ~300 USN. PRC also has a fuckload of "coastal" ships, but at this point even Chinese coast guard has sizable blue water fleet (retired PLAN ships go there). US still has more displacement via super carriers, better subsurface and larger replenishment fleet to enable more persistent blue water ops. Incidentally PLA is rapidly building up replenishment capabilities, but ultimately most of fleet will stick around PRC shores, with some moving into IndoPac for SLOC security or Africa for anti piracy. But currenly PLAN has MORE "ocean going" vessels than USN, and gap is expected to widen to PLAN 400+ wheras USN ship building lucky to maintain 300 by end of decade.
      - mlindner 4y ago
        If you build hundreds/thousands of boats with little to no effectiveness to prop up your numbers for the domestic public then it's easy to claim large navy sizes. My previous comment was with respect to actual effectiveness. China has no significant blue water navy.
        dirtyid 4y ago
        > little to no effectiveness to prop up your numbers for the domestic public Citation needed. This is borderline beyond "useful idiot" hot take because even DoD propaganda/analysis or defense wonks do not allege this, and they allege a lot of dumb shit with respect to PRC modernization. Western assesment of PLAN in last few years, with respect to blue water surface combatants, being commissioned at tremendous rates, is one branch where recent DoD writings / analysis has no substantial tech/hardware criticisms, relegating to, their hardware good but maybe software (training/jointness) lacking. Also to repeat "Many of which more modern". PLAN's blue water surface combatants built since 2010s are considered on par, if not superior with equivalent USN platforms in terms of systems and armaments, including latest flights. Certainly more than the significant portion of USN's aging hulls, many of which are not modernized to latest tech and are held together by duct tape / soon to retire. Like USN isn't going to have anything comparable to a type 55 for another 10+ years in DDG(X). It's hard to overstake the amount of USN program/procurement fuckups in the past decades and ongoing state of US ship building that enabled PRC to catch up in both quality and quantity. Majority of which concentrated in PRC backyard, on new hulls with better maintenance and readiness rates, that widens regional blue water naval power gap even further.
  - more_corn 4y ago
    It’d come down to tech. The us probably has a leg up today. China being able to field new tech faster would pull ahead in a protracted conflict or one that starts in five or ten years.
- dmix 4y ago
  Worlds most powerful navy VS hundreds of Chinese fishing boats harassing you over multiple years Your move hegemony. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK7nzZU6C90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK7nzZU6C90
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    Key word is "harassing". Like gnats or mosquitos. A nuisance, not a threat. Plus starting a shooting war with China isn't in our best interest, yet. If we ever get there the fishing boats will make exactly zero difference in the outcome.
    - dmix 4y ago
      I wasn’t making a serious comparison. But it is a critical problem for modern geopolitics for which Navy’s play a major role in. Paramilitia Fishing boats are like the local insurgents in Afghani/Iraqi cities. They are still there when big expensive American boats leave the other 99% of the year. They don’t provide real military prowess but they blend in with the locals (meaning hard to permanently bully out of neighbourhoods) and constantly apply pressure tactics and surveillance resources that benefit the parent resistance org. It also critical keeps their flags waving 24/7.
- hinkley 4y ago
  South Korea still makes all of the heaviest commercial vessels in the world, does it not? They're next door neighbors. I don't think China really wants anyone switching from commercial to military production.
- antifanboy 4y ago
  [dead]
pffft8888 4y ago
I would expect a huge qualitative difference in our favor when it comes to war strategy and execution, not to mention that we are far ahead in our experience "managing" a war on the world stage, and that we still have an edge in military technology and war machine maintenance. China would ultimately resort to having just one option, like Russia, to use or not use their nukes, which is an end of world scenario.
- lettergram 4y ago
  Or a virus that targets caucasians. Or knockout the GPS satellites. Or target 3-4 internet backbone nodes. Or a high altitude EMP (which would probably come from a nuke). There’s a lot of scary scenarios. The issue the west has with China, is that China produces all the consumer goods and a decent amount of the heavy equipment. The issue China has is the west provides access to food and energy. While that’s changing, to-date the two are too entangled for war imo.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  Wait, who is "we" here? I assumed we were talking about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_So... which isn't really related to Japan.
  - Teever 4y ago
    We is everyone who wants to live in a world not dominated by an authoritarian regime.
    - sasattack 4y ago
      Totally dude! so when do we start bombing Saudi Arabia?
    - elashri 4y ago
      That excludes a lot of US allies countries who are living under authoritarian regimes supported by the US in asia and the middle east. Like gulf countries who US depends on to cut oil off china if the war begins.
albertopv 4y ago
Chinese reclamations are absurd, they want economic exclusive zone even in front of Malaysia, ~1500kms from their shores, it's basicslly a call for war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea.webp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disp...
- elashri 4y ago
  Not something that is new. Absurd claims are something that even a European country can do like Greece interpretation of exclusive economic zone [1]. Not to say that this ia justification for China. Just to say that this is something happens with less outrage at different places. [1] https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Exclusive-Economic-Zone-2-815x544.jpg https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01...
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    Not to mention these are originally ROC / Taiwanese claims passed down to PRC when UN recognition formally switched, i.e. technically PRC didn't make these claims, but doing the geopolitically responsible / prudent thing of protecting them. Claims which btw predates other parties in the region, or UNCLOS formation, who does not rule on soverignty which makes PRC historic claims absurd and but also as legally valid as any other claims at UN (which does not recognize PCA "ruling" / kangaroo court).
  - largepeepee 4y ago
    It's not even limited to Europe or China. The US lays claims to many deserted islands in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific for their HUGE EEZs and bird poop. No one dares contest the most well-armed navy on those though...or else.
  - albertopv 4y ago
    Not every claim is the same. You can't really compare China to Greece, China is a nuclear power, millions of soldiers, she already showed not fearing using force.
tjpnz 4y ago
So much for not interfering in the internal affairs of other nations.
- chii 4y ago
  Claim EEZ, then say that anyone disagreeing is interfering with internal affairs.
- dirtyid 4y ago
  Would need time travel for this interpretation to be true. Technically, ROC(TW)/PRC claims came first post WW2 at UN. So technically other parties who claimed after are interfering in ROC/PRC internal affairs/sovereignty, which post PRC recognition at UN, PRC is now entitled to defend. Through actions which all things considered, are pretty tame for a G5 member whose should get away with being more equal than the others.
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
Japan was fighting the Americans for their economic independence all the way back in the 19th century.

rdl 4y ago

Guess what is the second most powerful navy in the world (and is a very close ally of the most powerful navy in the world?). Japan's "maritime self defense force".

missedthecue 4y ago
Not sure the US is eager to get into a kinetic conflict with China, which actually has a larger navy, and more importantly, is in their own front yard rather than 10,000km from home.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lmm 4y ago
  The US has a large naval presence in the area, not least the ships based in Japan. No-one wants a shooting war, but the US is eager to keep China contained, and enforcing the EEZ rules serves that interest.
- mlindner 4y ago
  US Navy is stationed closer than the Chinese navy. The US’s seventh fleet is permanently based out of Yokosuka Japan. Only US fleet not based out of somewhere in the US.
  - jakear 4y ago
    The fifth fleet is based out of Bahrain.
  - largepeepee 4y ago
    Not true. Besides 7th in Japan, there's 6th fleet is in Italy and 5th in Bahrain. So really half the US Navy is always stationed overseas with the first fleet being inactive.
- smt88 4y ago
  > China, which actually has a larger navy The US has a far more advanced navy (a large proportion of Chinese ships are patrol ships without much tactical significance) and many more aircraft carriers. Aircraft are extremely important in naval conflicts.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    Yawn. China itself is the larger aircraft carrier. They also have advanced rocketry, which may render the other ones obsolete.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    China doesn't need aircraft carriers though. They aren't trying to fight wars 10,000km from home. They have hundreds of air bases in China.
    - smt88 4y ago
      The US literally can't fight a war 10,000 km from "home" (a friendly country with military bases) because we have an enormous number of bases. Most importantly, we have tons of bases in Japan and South Korea[1]. 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-military-presence-around-the-world-interactive https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-mili...
      - missedthecue 4y ago
        One task force out of Japan is probably insufficient against the entire PLAN
  - SkyMarshal 4y ago
    > (a large proportion of Chinese ships are patrol ships without much tactical significance) If each one is armed with a few anti-ship missiles, a swarm attack from many different directions might be a real threat to a carrier group. You either waste a ton of ordinance taking them all out, or some portion are able to launch against you.
- baybal2 4y ago
  [dead]
- mlindner 4y ago
  Most of the ships aren’t ocean going vessels. They’re coastal ships.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    PRC has more proper blue water surface and subsurface combatants than USN currently and has for years. Many of which more modern. Last years count of "ocean going" / blue water capable is like ~350 PLAN vs ~300 USN. PRC also has a fuckload of "coastal" ships, but at this point even Chinese coast guard has sizable blue water fleet (retired PLAN ships go there). US still has more displacement via super carriers, better subsurface and larger replenishment fleet to enable more persistent blue water ops. Incidentally PLA is rapidly building up replenishment capabilities, but ultimately most of fleet will stick around PRC shores, with some moving into IndoPac for SLOC security or Africa for anti piracy. But currenly PLAN has MORE "ocean going" vessels than USN, and gap is expected to widen to PLAN 400+ wheras USN ship building lucky to maintain 300 by end of decade.
    - mlindner 4y ago
      If you build hundreds/thousands of boats with little to no effectiveness to prop up your numbers for the domestic public then it's easy to claim large navy sizes. My previous comment was with respect to actual effectiveness. China has no significant blue water navy.
      - dirtyid 4y ago
        > little to no effectiveness to prop up your numbers for the domestic public Citation needed. This is borderline beyond "useful idiot" hot take because even DoD propaganda/analysis or defense wonks do not allege this, and they allege a lot of dumb shit with respect to PRC modernization. Western assesment of PLAN in last few years, with respect to blue water surface combatants, being commissioned at tremendous rates, is one branch where recent DoD writings / analysis has no substantial tech/hardware criticisms, relegating to, their hardware good but maybe software (training/jointness) lacking. Also to repeat "Many of which more modern". PLAN's blue water surface combatants built since 2010s are considered on par, if not superior with equivalent USN platforms in terms of systems and armaments, including latest flights. Certainly more than the significant portion of USN's aging hulls, many of which are not modernized to latest tech and are held together by duct tape / soon to retire. Like USN isn't going to have anything comparable to a type 55 for another 10+ years in DDG(X). It's hard to overstake the amount of USN program/procurement fuckups in the past decades and ongoing state of US ship building that enabled PRC to catch up in both quality and quantity. Majority of which concentrated in PRC backyard, on new hulls with better maintenance and readiness rates, that widens regional blue water naval power gap even further.
- more_corn 4y ago
  It’d come down to tech. The us probably has a leg up today. China being able to field new tech faster would pull ahead in a protracted conflict or one that starts in five or ten years.
dmix 4y ago
Worlds most powerful navy VS hundreds of Chinese fishing boats harassing you over multiple years Your move hegemony. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK7nzZU6C90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK7nzZU6C90
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Key word is "harassing". Like gnats or mosquitos. A nuisance, not a threat. Plus starting a shooting war with China isn't in our best interest, yet. If we ever get there the fishing boats will make exactly zero difference in the outcome.
  - dmix 4y ago
    I wasn’t making a serious comparison. But it is a critical problem for modern geopolitics for which Navy’s play a major role in. Paramilitia Fishing boats are like the local insurgents in Afghani/Iraqi cities. They are still there when big expensive American boats leave the other 99% of the year. They don’t provide real military prowess but they blend in with the locals (meaning hard to permanently bully out of neighbourhoods) and constantly apply pressure tactics and surveillance resources that benefit the parent resistance org. It also critical keeps their flags waving 24/7.
hinkley 4y ago
South Korea still makes all of the heaviest commercial vessels in the world, does it not? They're next door neighbors. I don't think China really wants anyone switching from commercial to military production.
antifanboy 4y ago
[dead]

pffft8888 4y ago

I would expect a huge qualitative difference in our favor when it comes to war strategy and execution, not to mention that we are far ahead in our experience "managing" a war on the world stage, and that we still have an edge in military technology and war machine maintenance. China would ultimately resort to having just one option, like Russia, to use or not use their nukes, which is an end of world scenario.

lettergram 4y ago
Or a virus that targets caucasians. Or knockout the GPS satellites. Or target 3-4 internet backbone nodes. Or a high altitude EMP (which would probably come from a nuke). There’s a lot of scary scenarios. The issue the west has with China, is that China produces all the consumer goods and a decent amount of the heavy equipment. The issue China has is the west provides access to food and energy. While that’s changing, to-date the two are too entangled for war imo.
neltnerb 4y ago
Wait, who is "we" here? I assumed we were talking about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_So... which isn't really related to Japan.
- Teever 4y ago
  We is everyone who wants to live in a world not dominated by an authoritarian regime.
  - sasattack 4y ago
    Totally dude! so when do we start bombing Saudi Arabia?
  - elashri 4y ago
    That excludes a lot of US allies countries who are living under authoritarian regimes supported by the US in asia and the middle east. Like gulf countries who US depends on to cut oil off china if the war begins.

albertopv 4y ago

Chinese reclamations are absurd, they want economic exclusive zone even in front of Malaysia, ~1500kms from their shores, it's basicslly a call for war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea.webp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMap_of_territorial_disp...

elashri 4y ago
Not something that is new. Absurd claims are something that even a European country can do like Greece interpretation of exclusive economic zone [1]. Not to say that this ia justification for China. Just to say that this is something happens with less outrage at different places. [1] https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Exclusive-Economic-Zone-2-815x544.jpg https://cdn.cosmosphilly.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/01...
- dirtyid 4y ago
  Not to mention these are originally ROC / Taiwanese claims passed down to PRC when UN recognition formally switched, i.e. technically PRC didn't make these claims, but doing the geopolitically responsible / prudent thing of protecting them. Claims which btw predates other parties in the region, or UNCLOS formation, who does not rule on soverignty which makes PRC historic claims absurd and but also as legally valid as any other claims at UN (which does not recognize PCA "ruling" / kangaroo court).
- largepeepee 4y ago
  It's not even limited to Europe or China. The US lays claims to many deserted islands in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific for their HUGE EEZs and bird poop. No one dares contest the most well-armed navy on those though...or else.
- albertopv 4y ago
  Not every claim is the same. You can't really compare China to Greece, China is a nuclear power, millions of soldiers, she already showed not fearing using force.

tjpnz 4y ago

So much for not interfering in the internal affairs of other nations.

chii 4y ago
Claim EEZ, then say that anyone disagreeing is interfering with internal affairs.
dirtyid 4y ago
Would need time travel for this interpretation to be true. Technically, ROC(TW)/PRC claims came first post WW2 at UN. So technically other parties who claimed after are interfering in ROC/PRC internal affairs/sovereignty, which post PRC recognition at UN, PRC is now entitled to defend. Through actions which all things considered, are pretty tame for a G5 member whose should get away with being more equal than the others.

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

Japan was fighting the Americans for their economic independence all the way back in the 19th century.