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I often wonder why the average american should be more concerned about China than the CIA or FBI? the FBI has the power to put me in a cage, China does not...

I often wonder why the average american should be more concerned about China than the CIA or FBI? the FBI has the power to put me in a cage, China does not... I am confused as why china is a bigger threat to me personally than the FBI?

bioemerl 4y ago
Depends hugely on who you are and what happens with the politics. CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power. China is a much more distant and abstract, but much more serious threat. If the FBI or CIA fucks up, they will put let's say 10% of people in prison for opposition to the state. If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. China is a fully rogue actor with no balancing systems to prevent it from damaging our society. Both can kill you, both will kill you if given the opportunity. You shouldn't worry not about the guy with a knife because your immune system can kill you in 5 minutes if it wanted to. You should worry about both.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power That never works out in practice as the administrative state (which includes the FBI and CIA) are soo far removed from representative government they are basically unaccountable at this point, that is with out even getting into the idea that 1 vote in a nation of 350 million plus holds no real power anyway, or the problems with First past the post, or countless other topics around voting "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice >>Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded I think we already live in such a world. >>The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Do they? In any real sense? We have confirmed and rumored massive violations of constitutional rights both here and abroad yet there is no accountability. From the Torture report, to massive violation of 4th amendment via "parallel construction" to even the possibility of actual assassinations.. Who exactly are they accountable to? it is certainly not the people, or the constitution
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    > "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice I had a much larger post, but I'm going to only respond to this one now, because it sums up basically off the disagreements and no further discussion is going to resolve anything. I don't agree with this sort of cynicism at all, and I very much do believe that while it is very flawed, democracy ultimately is still doing its job.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      I understand the resistance cynicism, however your statement about democracy seems to be more faith based than any kind of data What data do you have to support the position that "democracy ultimately is still doing its job. " further what "job" do you believe democracy is doing. I can point to many data points that show it is not, the for mentioned lack of accountability. The fact that most of the voting population does not even vote. I can point to research studies like that from political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Paige [1] that shows Average citizens have little impact on public policy. I have all kinds of data, and clear examples in history to support my position, I would be interested in seeing a counter offer [1] https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-little-impact-on-public-policy/ https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-...
      - spookie 4y ago
        You can point out individual points of data as much as you want, the end result is what matters. Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? Have you seen the same, but on democratic countries? That should answer it.
        bombolo 4y ago
        Nothing bad happened to snowden after all right?
        4y ago
- iechoz6H 4y ago
  "Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe." Russia can not even 'take' Ukraine the chances of it being able to take Europe are zero at this point.
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    A big part of the issues Russia has had taking Ukraine has been because America is funding and helping them out as well. I don't want to totally discredit Ukraine here, but there is a world where without American support Russia would be having a much easier time.
    - hgsgm 4y ago
      [dead]
    - squarefoot 4y ago
      In that world without American support, Russia would probably have been occupied or severely weakened by the Nazi in WWII, and history would have been way different. Just nitpicking, I agree on principle.
      - rsj_hn 4y ago
        That is a very curious reading of history not shared by the majority of military historians in either the West or East. For example, according to the US military (See The West Point Military History of the Second World War which is available on Kindle), without US support, WW2 would have lasted 1-2 years longer but the Soviets could have defeated Germany all on their own, both without lend/lease and also without any US involvement at all in the war on Europe. Here is what the West Point history says at the start of their section on Lend/Lease: "Although nearly half the population and the great industrial regions of the Donets remained under German occupation, the Soviets still found men for new armies and vastly increased war production. They defeated the Germans at Stalingrad almost entirely through their own efforts and would probably have won the same victory if they received no assistance at all." Or you can read When Titans Clashed by noted British historian David Glantz, which reads "If the Western Allies had not provided equipment and invaded Northwest Europe, Stalin and his commanders would have taken twelve to eighteen months to finish off the Wehrmacht. The results would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers would have waded at France's Atlantic beaches rather than meeting the Allies at the Elbe". It is sad that many in the West don't know that 80% of German war deaths were at the hands of Soviet soldiers. The reason why historians believe this is because of the timing. The vast majority of Lend/Lease aid was delivered in 1945. Only 20% of aid was delivered before 1944 to the Soviets, but by that time the tide had already turned (Stalingrad, recognized as the turning point, was in winter of 1942 to the start of 1943). By the time Lend/Lease really took off, the Soviet army was already vastly larger and more capable than the German army, which was in full retreat. During the dark days of 1941 and 1942, Lend/Lease was miniscule, primarily consisting of things like cans of spam and beans. The Soviets derisively called Spam "The Second Front", because instead of delivering the promised second front, they received cans of spam in small quantities during the darkest period of the war for the Russians in 1941-1942. The massive factories and military gear were sent after the Germans were retreating, and therefore most historians believe they had the effect of speeding up the collapse of the German forces, which was the main effect of the Normandy invasion as well.
- wonnage 4y ago
  I think the comment you're replying to is specifically addressing the browsing data discussed in the post... I don't see how any of these issues are related to Bytedance having your IP history It's a different story if you are a Chinese national in the US, have family in China, are reporting on China, etc. But for most Americans it probably matters more if Google is sharing your info with various three-letter agencies.
- jychang 4y ago
  > They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. This analogy is great, because it's a better analogy than you think. Immune issues kill a LOT more people than knife attacks in the USA every year. In general, external enemies are less dangerous than internal enemies. It's easy to rally people against an external enemy (see the Robbers Cave Experiment in psychology), but much harder to rally people against an internal enemy. There are 0.60 knife deaths per 100k people in the USA. [1] There are 3.97 deaths for SAID per 100k [2], and that's just the first type of autoimmune issue that I googled for off the top of my head. Rome faced plenty of external enemies over the years, what actually caused the fall of Rome was internal. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-.... [2] https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/60/3/1321/5908065 https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/60/3/1321/5908...
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    > Immune issues kill a LOT more people than knife attacks in the USA every year When there are 100 million Americas with 100 million CIAs and all governments are ruled under a common government that makes all knife stabbings and war illegal, that maybe something that is the truth in geopolitics as well. Until then, this isn't an analogy that works very well.
- cute_boi 4y ago
  "CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power." Never worked, will never work. Big people/elites will always have access to every data. The pretext will be "National Security" or "Children". It is like baptist vs bootleggers, so voting won't solve the problem.
- jinonoel 4y ago
  >If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. When You're Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression. The world doesn't need to imagine, because we had to stand by while the US launched illegal wars in Iraq, continues the unjust economic sanctions on Cuba just just for election politics, or all the shenigans the CIA pulled in South America in the previous decades. Heck just this month the US has said it will ignore a WTO ruling[1] just because it says so and everyone will have to stand by. The multipolar world threatens Americans so much because they'll finally have to live like there's another version of themselves in the world. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-12-12/supply-chain-latest-us-snub-of-wto-called-a-step-back-for-trade https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-12-12/supply...
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    That's totally fair, and as a non American, I have a bunch of sympathy for this viewpoint. The US government have behaved like absolute shitheels for much of the Cold War and beyond. That being said, they have a relatively free press and relatively fair and liberal laws, especially compared to China.
- MisterMower 4y ago
  > The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Haven’t the Twitter files proven unequivocally that is not true? I agree that we should worry about both. I’m honestly unsure which of the two is a greater threat.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Considering the director of the NSA lied to congress about what they were doing and got away with it, I'm not sure we should be putting much faith in any checks or assuming the balance of three letter agencies.
Jolter 4y ago
I guess there is a tacit assumption that you and the US government have some shared goals, but that you share fewer goals with ByteDance or the government of China. I guess most Americans aren’t very scared of the feds “because they have nothing to hide”, which as we know is a false sense of security in any surveillance state. But it can still be true that you have /more/ to fear from the government of China, given that they can have economic impact on your life at a macro level.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>tacit assumption that you and the US government have some shared goals My goal is to live my life free from abuse, coercion, and infringement of my natural rights as a living human the governments goal (be it china or US) is power, and control via the exclusive authority to initiate violence on the people with in the sphere of influence I do not share any goals with government.
  - ironSkillet 4y ago
    Different governments have varying degrees of alignment with your goal. Despite how flawed the US govt is, I don't see how someone can think the US govt and CCP are equivalent in their misalignment with your desire.
  - nprateem 4y ago
    If the government couldn't do that to you and other people don't you think others would abuse you instead of the government? In that case your interests are aligned.
  - Jolter 4y ago
    I think that’s a very cynical outlook on society. I take it you’re not a huge fan of the US constitution?
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      The us constitution has either authorized the government we now have or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it has proven to be unfit to safe guard the natural rights it was created to protect against the onslaught of authoritarian policies that have largely ignored all limits placed on government authority
causality0 4y ago
Would you be concerned if your childrens' school curriculum had to get pre-approval from the Chinese government? That's the quantity of exposure we already have. An entity beholden to the CCP has an iron grip on the attention of America's youth.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  I would not want my Children on TikTok if it was American Owned. so the connection to China. TikTok is toxic trash for many reason well beyond its connection to China
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Faced with a choice between preapproval from China and the status quo, which is de-facto preapproval from right-wing Christian Confederate revanchists in Texas [1], I... well, I honestly don't know which option I'd pick. Either way, I'm not getting an objective education. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/19/conservative-activists-texas-have-shaped-history-all-american-children-learn/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/19/conservati...
ipaddr 4y ago
The average person would never come in contact with the fbi or be put in a cage randomly. Ask your neighbours / friends if they have heard about anyone in their circle who had this happen to them in some form. That fear is from tv using it so often it seems true. What does the average American need to fear about China? Very little in terms of impact to daily lives. What does the average American need to fear about being secretly recorded by a neighbour? Very little.. they still think its creepy
jfengel 4y ago
The FBI has that power, but at least in theory they don't want to. That's the balance we strike with government: we give them the monopoly on the legitimate use of force, in exchange for some kind of believe that they won't mis-use that force. The FBI has at least some kind of supervision, from elected officials who ultimately answer to their constituents. That's a long way from a guarantee, but it's more than nothing, which is what you have on China. China can't (legitimately) put you in a cage, but they can do a lot of other things to make you really unhappy, and there's nothing you can do about it. Whether that nets out to be more or less scary is up to you, but there is a difference on which to make the distinction. Me, I'm not really so sure that this app represents all that big a threat compared to all of the other things. My concerns are more with the intermediate: large corporations without the power to put me in a cage but with the power to do a lot of other bad things. Including just plain losing my info by accident, something neither the FBI nor China is likely to do.
hollerith 4y ago
The FBI and CIA have both good and bad effects on a US resident whereas China's national security establishment has only bad effects (if it has any significant effects). There is no disadvantage to a US resident from stopping them from spying on US residents. Both the law-and-order type of US voter and the don't-tread-on-me type agree on that.
- bombolo 4y ago
  > China's national security establishment has only bad effects It has stopped the CIA from installing their own government, no?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hollerith 4y ago
    Do you mean installing their own government in the US or in China?
threeseed 4y ago
In Australia, the Chinese government has been very aggressive with our citizens. - Students have had family members back in China threatened with imprisonment for merely attending protests. - Journalists have been kidnapped and are still missing. - Other individuals have been monitored by local embassy staff. - Businesses have seen markets arbitrarily cut-off for any form of criticism. Just because you have not been personally threatened doesn't mean others haven't.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  This has also happened in the US.
cloverich 4y ago
The FBI has the power to put you in a cage, and yet you are not in a cage. China regularly puts its own citizens in a cage or worse for offenses that are perfectly acceptable here, such as criticizing our leadership. China is a large and powerful country. China is an authoritarian state whose leadership would unquestionably impose their will on us could they. Recording data about us now to be used in 10, 20, or 50 years in the same ways they are actively using it agains their current citizens today doesn't seem far fetched, however unlikely at this point in time.
- berniedurfee 4y ago
  Interesting take. Many teens and 20-somethings using TikTok today will be looking to get elected 20 or 30 years from now. They may also end up as CEOs. Would be a shame if their youthful TikTok private videos and DMs happened to be leaked to the press. Unless…
nonethewiser 4y ago
How about both
nprateem 4y ago
Because like all dragnets they may snag some big fish who it could be helpful to track/compromise. Everyone else on the platform provides a reason for the main targets to use it.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
China can have you fired.
hayst4ck 4y ago
You and I, we're nobodies with no power. We share a country with people who do have power. The power they exercise impacts our lives. Those people have weaknesses. Those weaknesses can be exploited. If you ran an intelligence service, you might want to identify targets, prioritize targets, and potentially create a graph of social connections. Tiktok provides picture data (geolocation, timestamps, hashes, potentially facial recognition and OCR), location data, time data (hours app is opened), private message data, and data on hobbies/interests, I assume there is profile and private message data as well. That's all without bringing up the glaring problem which is damaging institutional trust. Promoting anti-science videos or showing one group very pro videos and another group very against videos is damaging to our very social fabric. Amplifying things that feel intuitive but aren't correct is dangerous. The threat model you perceive is that our authoritarian government would oppress us. The threat model that is happening is that external governments are causing chaos within our borders, amplifying division, and sewing distrust. You perceive the government to be a bigger threat because of how you imagine you might exercise power, maybe you want to unionize, maybe you worry about police abuse, maybe you worry someone might take your guns, maybe you hate taxes. That misses the bigger picture... out of the following people, would you prefer them to be "compromised" by the CIA or by China? Soldier, Politician, Judge, CEO, Engineer, nuclear scientist, EPA regulator, Chief logistics officers, FCC employees, Bankers, etc. I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I'm open to an explanation of why it is not.
- lmm 4y ago
  > You perceive the government to be a bigger threat because of how you imagine you might exercise power, maybe you want to unionize, maybe you worry about police abuse, maybe you worry someone might take your guns, maybe you hate taxes. That misses the bigger picture... out of the following people, would you prefer them to be "compromised" by the CIA or by China? Soldier, Politician, Judge, CEO, Engineer, nuclear scientist, EPA regulator, Chief logistics officers, FCC employees, Bankers, etc. > I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I'm open to an explanation of why it is not. Who has the motive and opportunity to do things that screw over regular folks? It's a lot easier to think of cases where the CIA has something to gain by keeping someone in or out of jail who shouldn't be, or routing money or weapons somewhere they shouldn't be, than where China does. Low-level disruption would be a poor use of their assets that's not worth the risk. CIA employees have a lot more reason to be in zero-sum competition with regular Joes.
ffiirree 4y ago
I won't use any names but Smusshia helped get Donald Duck elected. What could Chmina do? How could they erode our society? The implications are enormous, and not even theoretical by this point. A lot of societal attack on us has already been documented.

bioemerl 4y ago

Depends hugely on who you are and what happens with the politics. CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power. China is a much more distant and abstract, but much more serious threat. If the FBI or CIA fucks up, they will put let's say 10% of people in prison for opposition to the state. If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. China is a fully rogue actor with no balancing systems to prevent it from damaging our society. Both can kill you, both will kill you if given the opportunity. You shouldn't worry not about the guy with a knife because your immune system can kill you in 5 minutes if it wanted to. You should worry about both.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power That never works out in practice as the administrative state (which includes the FBI and CIA) are soo far removed from representative government they are basically unaccountable at this point, that is with out even getting into the idea that 1 vote in a nation of 350 million plus holds no real power anyway, or the problems with First past the post, or countless other topics around voting "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice >>Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded I think we already live in such a world. >>The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Do they? In any real sense? We have confirmed and rumored massive violations of constitutional rights both here and abroad yet there is no accountability. From the Torture report, to massive violation of 4th amendment via "parallel construction" to even the possibility of actual assassinations.. Who exactly are they accountable to? it is certainly not the people, or the constitution
- bioemerl 4y ago
  > "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice I had a much larger post, but I'm going to only respond to this one now, because it sums up basically off the disagreements and no further discussion is going to resolve anything. I don't agree with this sort of cynicism at all, and I very much do believe that while it is very flawed, democracy ultimately is still doing its job.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    I understand the resistance cynicism, however your statement about democracy seems to be more faith based than any kind of data What data do you have to support the position that "democracy ultimately is still doing its job. " further what "job" do you believe democracy is doing. I can point to many data points that show it is not, the for mentioned lack of accountability. The fact that most of the voting population does not even vote. I can point to research studies like that from political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Paige [1] that shows Average citizens have little impact on public policy. I have all kinds of data, and clear examples in history to support my position, I would be interested in seeing a counter offer [1] https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-little-impact-on-public-policy/ https://pnhp.org/news/gilens-and-page-average-citizens-have-...
    - spookie 4y ago
      You can point out individual points of data as much as you want, the end result is what matters. Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? Have you seen the same, but on democratic countries? That should answer it.
      - bombolo 4y ago
        Nothing bad happened to snowden after all right?
        4y ago
iechoz6H 4y ago
"Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe." Russia can not even 'take' Ukraine the chances of it being able to take Europe are zero at this point.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  A big part of the issues Russia has had taking Ukraine has been because America is funding and helping them out as well. I don't want to totally discredit Ukraine here, but there is a world where without American support Russia would be having a much easier time.
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    [dead]
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    In that world without American support, Russia would probably have been occupied or severely weakened by the Nazi in WWII, and history would have been way different. Just nitpicking, I agree on principle.
    - rsj_hn 4y ago
      That is a very curious reading of history not shared by the majority of military historians in either the West or East. For example, according to the US military (See The West Point Military History of the Second World War which is available on Kindle), without US support, WW2 would have lasted 1-2 years longer but the Soviets could have defeated Germany all on their own, both without lend/lease and also without any US involvement at all in the war on Europe. Here is what the West Point history says at the start of their section on Lend/Lease: "Although nearly half the population and the great industrial regions of the Donets remained under German occupation, the Soviets still found men for new armies and vastly increased war production. They defeated the Germans at Stalingrad almost entirely through their own efforts and would probably have won the same victory if they received no assistance at all." Or you can read When Titans Clashed by noted British historian David Glantz, which reads "If the Western Allies had not provided equipment and invaded Northwest Europe, Stalin and his commanders would have taken twelve to eighteen months to finish off the Wehrmacht. The results would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers would have waded at France's Atlantic beaches rather than meeting the Allies at the Elbe". It is sad that many in the West don't know that 80% of German war deaths were at the hands of Soviet soldiers. The reason why historians believe this is because of the timing. The vast majority of Lend/Lease aid was delivered in 1945. Only 20% of aid was delivered before 1944 to the Soviets, but by that time the tide had already turned (Stalingrad, recognized as the turning point, was in winter of 1942 to the start of 1943). By the time Lend/Lease really took off, the Soviet army was already vastly larger and more capable than the German army, which was in full retreat. During the dark days of 1941 and 1942, Lend/Lease was miniscule, primarily consisting of things like cans of spam and beans. The Soviets derisively called Spam "The Second Front", because instead of delivering the promised second front, they received cans of spam in small quantities during the darkest period of the war for the Russians in 1941-1942. The massive factories and military gear were sent after the Germans were retreating, and therefore most historians believe they had the effect of speeding up the collapse of the German forces, which was the main effect of the Normandy invasion as well.
wonnage 4y ago
I think the comment you're replying to is specifically addressing the browsing data discussed in the post... I don't see how any of these issues are related to Bytedance having your IP history It's a different story if you are a Chinese national in the US, have family in China, are reporting on China, etc. But for most Americans it probably matters more if Google is sharing your info with various three-letter agencies.
jychang 4y ago
> They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. This analogy is great, because it's a better analogy than you think. Immune issues kill a LOT more people than knife attacks in the USA every year. In general, external enemies are less dangerous than internal enemies. It's easy to rally people against an external enemy (see the Robbers Cave Experiment in psychology), but much harder to rally people against an internal enemy. There are 0.60 knife deaths per 100k people in the USA. [1] There are 3.97 deaths for SAID per 100k [2], and that's just the first type of autoimmune issue that I googled for off the top of my head. Rome faced plenty of external enemies over the years, what actually caused the fall of Rome was internal. [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/stabbing-.... [2] https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/60/3/1321/5908065 https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/article/60/3/1321/5908...
- bioemerl 4y ago
  > Immune issues kill a LOT more people than knife attacks in the USA every year When there are 100 million Americas with 100 million CIAs and all governments are ruled under a common government that makes all knife stabbings and war illegal, that maybe something that is the truth in geopolitics as well. Until then, this isn't an analogy that works very well.
cute_boi 4y ago
"CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power." Never worked, will never work. Big people/elites will always have access to every data. The pretext will be "National Security" or "Children". It is like baptist vs bootleggers, so voting won't solve the problem.
jinonoel 4y ago
>If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. When You're Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression. The world doesn't need to imagine, because we had to stand by while the US launched illegal wars in Iraq, continues the unjust economic sanctions on Cuba just just for election politics, or all the shenigans the CIA pulled in South America in the previous decades. Heck just this month the US has said it will ignore a WTO ruling[1] just because it says so and everyone will have to stand by. The multipolar world threatens Americans so much because they'll finally have to live like there's another version of themselves in the world. [1]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-12-12/supply-chain-latest-us-snub-of-wto-called-a-step-back-for-trade https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-12-12/supply...
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  That's totally fair, and as a non American, I have a bunch of sympathy for this viewpoint. The US government have behaved like absolute shitheels for much of the Cold War and beyond. That being said, they have a relatively free press and relatively fair and liberal laws, especially compared to China.
MisterMower 4y ago
> The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Haven’t the Twitter files proven unequivocally that is not true? I agree that we should worry about both. I’m honestly unsure which of the two is a greater threat.
autoexec 4y ago
> The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Considering the director of the NSA lied to congress about what they were doing and got away with it, I'm not sure we should be putting much faith in any checks or assuming the balance of three letter agencies.

Jolter 4y ago

I guess there is a tacit assumption that you and the US government have some shared goals, but that you share fewer goals with ByteDance or the government of China. I guess most Americans aren’t very scared of the feds “because they have nothing to hide”, which as we know is a false sense of security in any surveillance state. But it can still be true that you have /more/ to fear from the government of China, given that they can have economic impact on your life at a macro level.

phpisthebest 4y ago
>>tacit assumption that you and the US government have some shared goals My goal is to live my life free from abuse, coercion, and infringement of my natural rights as a living human the governments goal (be it china or US) is power, and control via the exclusive authority to initiate violence on the people with in the sphere of influence I do not share any goals with government.
- ironSkillet 4y ago
  Different governments have varying degrees of alignment with your goal. Despite how flawed the US govt is, I don't see how someone can think the US govt and CCP are equivalent in their misalignment with your desire.
- nprateem 4y ago
  If the government couldn't do that to you and other people don't you think others would abuse you instead of the government? In that case your interests are aligned.
- Jolter 4y ago
  I think that’s a very cynical outlook on society. I take it you’re not a huge fan of the US constitution?
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    The us constitution has either authorized the government we now have or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it has proven to be unfit to safe guard the natural rights it was created to protect against the onslaught of authoritarian policies that have largely ignored all limits placed on government authority

causality0 4y ago

Would you be concerned if your childrens' school curriculum had to get pre-approval from the Chinese government? That's the quantity of exposure we already have. An entity beholden to the CCP has an iron grip on the attention of America's youth.

phpisthebest 4y ago
I would not want my Children on TikTok if it was American Owned. so the connection to China. TikTok is toxic trash for many reason well beyond its connection to China
CamperBob2 4y ago
Faced with a choice between preapproval from China and the status quo, which is de-facto preapproval from right-wing Christian Confederate revanchists in Texas [1], I... well, I honestly don't know which option I'd pick. Either way, I'm not getting an objective education. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/19/conservative-activists-texas-have-shaped-history-all-american-children-learn/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/19/conservati...

ipaddr 4y ago

The average person would never come in contact with the fbi or be put in a cage randomly. Ask your neighbours / friends if they have heard about anyone in their circle who had this happen to them in some form. That fear is from tv using it so often it seems true. What does the average American need to fear about China? Very little in terms of impact to daily lives. What does the average American need to fear about being secretly recorded by a neighbour? Very little.. they still think its creepy

jfengel 4y ago

The FBI has that power, but at least in theory they don't want to. That's the balance we strike with government: we give them the monopoly on the legitimate use of force, in exchange for some kind of believe that they won't mis-use that force. The FBI has at least some kind of supervision, from elected officials who ultimately answer to their constituents. That's a long way from a guarantee, but it's more than nothing, which is what you have on China. China can't (legitimately) put you in a cage, but they can do a lot of other things to make you really unhappy, and there's nothing you can do about it. Whether that nets out to be more or less scary is up to you, but there is a difference on which to make the distinction. Me, I'm not really so sure that this app represents all that big a threat compared to all of the other things. My concerns are more with the intermediate: large corporations without the power to put me in a cage but with the power to do a lot of other bad things. Including just plain losing my info by accident, something neither the FBI nor China is likely to do.

hollerith 4y ago

The FBI and CIA have both good and bad effects on a US resident whereas China's national security establishment has only bad effects (if it has any significant effects). There is no disadvantage to a US resident from stopping them from spying on US residents. Both the law-and-order type of US voter and the don't-tread-on-me type agree on that.

bombolo 4y ago
> China's national security establishment has only bad effects It has stopped the CIA from installing their own government, no?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hollerith 4y ago
  Do you mean installing their own government in the US or in China?

threeseed 4y ago

In Australia, the Chinese government has been very aggressive with our citizens. - Students have had family members back in China threatened with imprisonment for merely attending protests. - Journalists have been kidnapped and are still missing. - Other individuals have been monitored by local embassy staff. - Businesses have seen markets arbitrarily cut-off for any form of criticism. Just because you have not been personally threatened doesn't mean others haven't.

dragonwriter 4y ago
This has also happened in the US.

cloverich 4y ago

The FBI has the power to put you in a cage, and yet you are not in a cage. China regularly puts its own citizens in a cage or worse for offenses that are perfectly acceptable here, such as criticizing our leadership. China is a large and powerful country. China is an authoritarian state whose leadership would unquestionably impose their will on us could they. Recording data about us now to be used in 10, 20, or 50 years in the same ways they are actively using it agains their current citizens today doesn't seem far fetched, however unlikely at this point in time.

berniedurfee 4y ago
Interesting take. Many teens and 20-somethings using TikTok today will be looking to get elected 20 or 30 years from now. They may also end up as CEOs. Would be a shame if their youthful TikTok private videos and DMs happened to be leaked to the press. Unless…

nonethewiser 4y ago

How about both

nprateem 4y ago

Because like all dragnets they may snag some big fish who it could be helpful to track/compromise. Everyone else on the platform provides a reason for the main targets to use it.

mensetmanusman 4y ago

China can have you fired.

hayst4ck 4y ago

You and I, we're nobodies with no power. We share a country with people who do have power. The power they exercise impacts our lives. Those people have weaknesses. Those weaknesses can be exploited. If you ran an intelligence service, you might want to identify targets, prioritize targets, and potentially create a graph of social connections. Tiktok provides picture data (geolocation, timestamps, hashes, potentially facial recognition and OCR), location data, time data (hours app is opened), private message data, and data on hobbies/interests, I assume there is profile and private message data as well. That's all without bringing up the glaring problem which is damaging institutional trust. Promoting anti-science videos or showing one group very pro videos and another group very against videos is damaging to our very social fabric. Amplifying things that feel intuitive but aren't correct is dangerous. The threat model you perceive is that our authoritarian government would oppress us. The threat model that is happening is that external governments are causing chaos within our borders, amplifying division, and sewing distrust. You perceive the government to be a bigger threat because of how you imagine you might exercise power, maybe you want to unionize, maybe you worry about police abuse, maybe you worry someone might take your guns, maybe you hate taxes. That misses the bigger picture... out of the following people, would you prefer them to be "compromised" by the CIA or by China? Soldier, Politician, Judge, CEO, Engineer, nuclear scientist, EPA regulator, Chief logistics officers, FCC employees, Bankers, etc. I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I'm open to an explanation of why it is not.

lmm 4y ago
> You perceive the government to be a bigger threat because of how you imagine you might exercise power, maybe you want to unionize, maybe you worry about police abuse, maybe you worry someone might take your guns, maybe you hate taxes. That misses the bigger picture... out of the following people, would you prefer them to be "compromised" by the CIA or by China? Soldier, Politician, Judge, CEO, Engineer, nuclear scientist, EPA regulator, Chief logistics officers, FCC employees, Bankers, etc. > I think the answer is pretty obvious, but I'm open to an explanation of why it is not. Who has the motive and opportunity to do things that screw over regular folks? It's a lot easier to think of cases where the CIA has something to gain by keeping someone in or out of jail who shouldn't be, or routing money or weapons somewhere they shouldn't be, than where China does. Low-level disruption would be a poor use of their assets that's not worth the risk. CIA employees have a lot more reason to be in zero-sum competition with regular Joes.

ffiirree 4y ago

I won't use any names but Smusshia helped get Donald Duck elected. What could Chmina do? How could they erode our society? The implications are enormous, and not even theoretical by this point. A lot of societal attack on us has already been documented.