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We should do both. This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handl

We should do both. This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handled as soon as possible. I totally support broad regulation of privacy law. TikTok is a much deeper concern. I don't like seeing a good cause used to distract from another good cause.

shrewduser 4y ago
personally despite all that, it seems weird that western social network / tech companies aren't able to operate in china but the reverse is fine.
- paiute 4y ago
  same with land ownership.
- renonn 4y ago
  [dead]
- 8note 4y ago
  The west values free enterprise, association, etc. China does not. If you want to be more like china, you can ban them, but if you think that freedom is valuable, it's you who's losing out
  - shrewduser 4y ago
    The west doesn't just give everyone unlimited market access, especially if it's not reciprocated.
  - kmonsen 4y ago
    Or you can have a group of countries that mostly cooperates and leave out the ones that only take and never give.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    You mean how the EU has effectively banned US companies since 2015 ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems#Schrems_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems#Schrems_I
- siggen 4y ago
  Mainly due to different government systems/markets. Each nation applies certain rules to protect interests and favored companies. An article that described some is here [1]. [1] https://time.com/6139988/countries-where-twitter-facebook-tiktok-banned/ https://time.com/6139988/countries-where-twitter-facebook-ti...
8note 4y ago
We should do the one because it covers both cases. A TikTok that doesn't have the ability to do bad things isn't an issue. Focusing on TikTok pretends that it's the only hostile actor with a large platform in <country> that needs to be handled asap You can handle Facebook and TikTok at the same time by putting in strong privacy regulations, along with all the other similar hostile actors
- dieortin 4y ago
  Tiktok isn’t only dangerous because of the data they harvest. It’s the epitome of algorithmic social media, which can be extremely damaging to society, and also a tool for propaganda and disinformation.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  I'm very skeptical that there is such a thing as a regulation which can keep a state actor with zero transparency like TikTok in check. Even if you move all of their code and mandate that they have a shell company in the United States, and you mandate that none of American data ever goes to China, they can ignore you. You validate that every request only stays in the United States? How do you validate that there's no communication between the two systems? The state they operate in is going to make whistle blowing very difficult, not ever allow proper auditing into the state apparatus which ultimately controls the company. You can administrate code, but unless you actually build that code yourself and basically understand it from the ground up with every single update, which is going to be nearly impossible, it's going to be very easy to sneak features through. The problem is, keeping this safe is going to be a herculan task, and we're just not up to it. Facebook is tame in comparison, because at the end of the day they're subject to our open media, transparency laws, corporate auditing, and all of that other fun stuff. We can reasonably pass regulations that help keep Facebook in check. We cannot reasonably pass regulations which we'll keep TikTok in check.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    TikTok isn't a state actor. Contrary to the current American discourse, not everyone in China is a government bot.
phpisthebest 4y ago
I often wonder why the average american should be more concerned about China than the CIA or FBI? the FBI has the power to put me in a cage, China does not... I am confused as why china is a bigger threat to me personally than the FBI?
- bioemerl 4y ago
  Depends hugely on who you are and what happens with the politics. CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power. China is a much more distant and abstract, but much more serious threat. If the FBI or CIA fucks up, they will put let's say 10% of people in prison for opposition to the state. If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. China is a fully rogue actor with no balancing systems to prevent it from damaging our society. Both can kill you, both will kill you if given the opportunity. You shouldn't worry not about the guy with a knife because your immune system can kill you in 5 minutes if it wanted to. You should worry about both.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power That never works out in practice as the administrative state (which includes the FBI and CIA) are soo far removed from representative government they are basically unaccountable at this point, that is with out even getting into the idea that 1 vote in a nation of 350 million plus holds no real power anyway, or the problems with First past the post, or countless other topics around voting "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice >>Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded I think we already live in such a world. >>The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Do they? In any real sense? We have confirmed and rumored massive violations of constitutional rights both here and abroad yet there is no accountability. From the Torture report, to massive violation of 4th amendment via "parallel construction" to even the possibility of actual assassinations.. Who exactly are they accountable to? it is certainly not the people, or the constitution
nonethewiser 4y ago
> This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handled as soon as possible. Can you clarify what you mean here? I realize people are unhappy with how Elon has run Twitter but who do you expect to do what?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Spooky23 4y ago
This has attention right now because of the stupid political news cycle. The South Dakota governor wants to be Sarah Palin Jr. The reality is lots of people sell this data. If you shut down tiktok, the Chinese will go buy it or otherwise obtain it from one of them.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Which is why tracking and selling such data should be illegal.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Exactly. If TikTok can’t do it, Facebook shouldn’t either.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  The data really isn't the concern. It's a mild concern in long term as we have kids grow up to be presidents and their stupid stuff is on this media platform who can dig it up and blackmail with it. The real concern is the ability to use the website as a propaganda outlet
  - pokepim 4y ago
    [dead]
O1111OOO 4y ago
> we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country I was going to say that if user is addicted to TikTok (or other hostile application) and also concerned about surveillance/tracking - they could use a dedicated burner phone with fake info, no contacts. > I totally support broad regulation of privacy law. I later read this from Wikipedia: "As of January 2020, researches found that governments of 155 countries have been mandating SIM registration laws; in some countries, prepaid users must submit biometrics like photos and fingerprints."[0] The system is broken... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepaid_mobile_phone#Privacy_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepaid_mobile_phone#Privacy_r...

shrewduser 4y ago

personally despite all that, it seems weird that western social network / tech companies aren't able to operate in china but the reverse is fine.

paiute 4y ago
same with land ownership.
renonn 4y ago
[dead]
8note 4y ago
The west values free enterprise, association, etc. China does not. If you want to be more like china, you can ban them, but if you think that freedom is valuable, it's you who's losing out
- shrewduser 4y ago
  The west doesn't just give everyone unlimited market access, especially if it's not reciprocated.
- kmonsen 4y ago
  Or you can have a group of countries that mostly cooperates and leave out the ones that only take and never give.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  You mean how the EU has effectively banned US companies since 2015 ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems#Schrems_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems#Schrems_I
siggen 4y ago
Mainly due to different government systems/markets. Each nation applies certain rules to protect interests and favored companies. An article that described some is here [1]. [1] https://time.com/6139988/countries-where-twitter-facebook-tiktok-banned/ https://time.com/6139988/countries-where-twitter-facebook-ti...

8note 4y ago

We should do the one because it covers both cases. A TikTok that doesn't have the ability to do bad things isn't an issue. Focusing on TikTok pretends that it's the only hostile actor with a large platform in <country> that needs to be handled asap You can handle Facebook and TikTok at the same time by putting in strong privacy regulations, along with all the other similar hostile actors

dieortin 4y ago
Tiktok isn’t only dangerous because of the data they harvest. It’s the epitome of algorithmic social media, which can be extremely damaging to society, and also a tool for propaganda and disinformation.
bioemerl 4y ago
I'm very skeptical that there is such a thing as a regulation which can keep a state actor with zero transparency like TikTok in check. Even if you move all of their code and mandate that they have a shell company in the United States, and you mandate that none of American data ever goes to China, they can ignore you. You validate that every request only stays in the United States? How do you validate that there's no communication between the two systems? The state they operate in is going to make whistle blowing very difficult, not ever allow proper auditing into the state apparatus which ultimately controls the company. You can administrate code, but unless you actually build that code yourself and basically understand it from the ground up with every single update, which is going to be nearly impossible, it's going to be very easy to sneak features through. The problem is, keeping this safe is going to be a herculan task, and we're just not up to it. Facebook is tame in comparison, because at the end of the day they're subject to our open media, transparency laws, corporate auditing, and all of that other fun stuff. We can reasonably pass regulations that help keep Facebook in check. We cannot reasonably pass regulations which we'll keep TikTok in check.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  TikTok isn't a state actor. Contrary to the current American discourse, not everyone in China is a government bot.

phpisthebest 4y ago

I often wonder why the average american should be more concerned about China than the CIA or FBI? the FBI has the power to put me in a cage, China does not... I am confused as why china is a bigger threat to me personally than the FBI?

bioemerl 4y ago
Depends hugely on who you are and what happens with the politics. CIA and FBI are very big threats to you, which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power. China is a much more distant and abstract, but much more serious threat. If the FBI or CIA fucks up, they will put let's say 10% of people in prison for opposition to the state. If China is allowed to gain upper hands on the United States, it will result in broad scale societal problems which I couldn't even begin to estimate. Imagine a world where Russia is allowed to take Europe. Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded and our chip supply is shut down. They are very different threats, and should be treated very differently. The FBI and CIA are immune system type systems, where China is a guy with a knife. The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. China is a fully rogue actor with no balancing systems to prevent it from damaging our society. Both can kill you, both will kill you if given the opportunity. You shouldn't worry not about the guy with a knife because your immune system can kill you in 5 minutes if it wanted to. You should worry about both.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>which is why you vote regularly to ensure that your rights are represented and those agencies aren't able to abuse their power That never works out in practice as the administrative state (which includes the FBI and CIA) are soo far removed from representative government they are basically unaccountable at this point, that is with out even getting into the idea that 1 vote in a nation of 350 million plus holds no real power anyway, or the problems with First past the post, or countless other topics around voting "Democracy" is more or less an delusion those in power perpetuate to ensure the cattle think they have a choice >>Imagine a world where the United States is convinced to stand by as Taiwan is invaded I think we already live in such a world. >>The CIA and FBI have checks on them and are balanced as we speak. Do they? In any real sense? We have confirmed and rumored massive violations of constitutional rights both here and abroad yet there is no accountability. From the Torture report, to massive violation of 4th amendment via "parallel construction" to even the possibility of actual assassinations.. Who exactly are they accountable to? it is certainly not the people, or the constitution

nonethewiser 4y ago

> This is detracting from the fact that we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country, and that needs to be handled as soon as possible. Can you clarify what you mean here? I realize people are unhappy with how Elon has run Twitter but who do you expect to do what?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Spooky23 4y ago

This has attention right now because of the stupid political news cycle. The South Dakota governor wants to be Sarah Palin Jr. The reality is lots of people sell this data. If you shut down tiktok, the Chinese will go buy it or otherwise obtain it from one of them.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Which is why tracking and selling such data should be illegal.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Exactly. If TikTok can’t do it, Facebook shouldn’t either.
bioemerl 4y ago
The data really isn't the concern. It's a mild concern in long term as we have kids grow up to be presidents and their stupid stuff is on this media platform who can dig it up and blackmail with it. The real concern is the ability to use the website as a propaganda outlet
- pokepim 4y ago
  [dead]

O1111OOO 4y ago

> we have an actively hostile actor with a huge platform here in our country I was going to say that if user is addicted to TikTok (or other hostile application) and also concerned about surveillance/tracking - they could use a dedicated burner phone with fake info, no contacts. > I totally support broad regulation of privacy law. I later read this from Wikipedia: "As of January 2020, researches found that governments of 155 countries have been mandating SIM registration laws; in some countries, prepaid users must submit biometrics like photos and fingerprints."[0] The system is broken... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepaid_mobile_phone#Privacy_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prepaid_mobile_phone#Privacy_r...