10 ms·

I spent two years trying to do what Backstage does for free

159 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

depr 4y ago
Why would this be reposted to their blog? They had the same post a few months ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343
- Amorymeltzer 4y ago
  Weird, the link there has been deleted. Thorough discussion though, folks should indeed head there.
- kapep 4y ago
  There are some comments on this article that are a few month old. To me it looks like they accidentally updated publication the date.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- conscion 4y ago
  See this reply [0], they re-published it as part of a holiday "top 10" [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34083279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34083279
Veuxdo 4y ago
Author might be earnest, but my goodness does this feel like an ad...
- michaelbuckbee 4y ago
  Is there any actual cost to this? It looks like an open source app with no premium upgrade.
  - arnvald 4y ago
    Backstage is introducing premium (paid) plug-ins, they're entering beta stage[0] 0: https://backstage.spotify.com/plugins/ https://backstage.spotify.com/plugins/
- vxNsr 4y ago
  Especially the way they pivoted to talking about stackoverflow for teams. Felt like it was coming out of left field.
elijaht 4y ago
We used Backstage at a previous company. I was fairly unimpressed- it feels like any knowledge/documentation tool in use at a company where it only works with a lot of discipline to keep it up to date. Curious if others have had better experiences with this
- ghaff 4y ago
  Not Backstage specifically but I think you're describing documentation generally in a company of any size. Some tools are better (e.g. better search) than others. But documentation is something that's (hopefully mostly) correct the day it's created and tends to get less correct over time and may or may not get updated or formally deprecated. There needs to be a process and probably at least a librarian and even then it's often not obvious. In my experience, a lot of written material gets into the "not quite right any longer but we don't have anything better"--and if you go to update it there's invariably a lot of things that end up getting changed. Not sure I've ever cracked open an old paper or blog post and just changed one thing.
  - vxNsr 4y ago
    Yup, in any midsized+ org you need a librarian if you want your doc/kb to be kept in good shape, that person also needs to have a lot of soft power/people skills to enforce rules and procedures many might feel are secondary to their main responsibilities.
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    I had an idea some years ago to gradually lower the contrast on the doc page until the users get frustrated and raise concerns/tickets/escalations. bringing it to a normal contrast again requires a review of the documentation and some kind of punishing if someone just clicks "yeah, it is still fine". I hate outdated documentation, primarily including mine.
    - mgkimsal 4y ago
      Not sure you'd necessarily need to rely on contrast (or... contrast alone - reader mode and similar might render that not noticeable for folks). Some datestamp next to multiple areas with a "last reviewed/approved on" info would likely be useful, esp if someone could flag items that are known out of date/wrong/broken for review, even if they didn't know what 'correct' was. I've hit this multiple times as a new person on a team/project - at least those that had moderate documentation. I know "example A" doesn't work, but I don't yet know why it's wrong or how to fix it, but flagging it for review would help me not lose track of it.
paateetee 4y ago
after the write up, there was a podcast below, now im confused if its called zish or zee-ess-aech? https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/talking-about-our-favorite-terminal-tools-etxyDP2S?recast=6d9e86e0-216a-5990-bf38-af0c0a8c82f3 https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/t... timestamp 1:46
- zamadatix 4y ago
  I've heard zee-shell (like seashell)/zed-shell most often but I don't think there is any nearly universally accepted way like say bash. I've heard both zish and zee/zed-ess-aitch/haitch before but not as often.
- perfect5th 4y ago
  The existence of oh-my-zsh has always implied to me a common pronunciation that rhymes with "gosh", which is really the only way their play on words works.
- e12e 4y ago
  "She sells csh by the sea shore" - changes to voiced s/z for zsh? ("c/see/sea" to (shining) "zee")?
- twicetwice 4y ago
  I've been pronouncing it as "zeesh" in my head, which works well for me. I think I got that from a coworker? Not sure. Works fairly well with "oh my zeesh" as well, which I like.
Mistletoe 4y ago
Why did I confuse this with Backpage…
- bloodyplonker22 4y ago
  Ironically, Backstage is an even more appropriate name for it.
andybak 4y ago
Despite this post being dated December 21, 2022, I'm 90% I read this a long time back - 6 months or so maybe.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343
  - ezekg 4y ago
    Knew it sounded familiar. But why would they republish it? The old post now 404s.
    - mormegil 4y ago
      Yes, that is not cool. By coincidence, a few days ago, I followed a link to an SO blog article, but the link was broken, I searched the article title on Google, which led me... to the same 404 page again. So I took to the great Internet Archive which fortunately worked. Only later have I found that because the article in question was so good they chose to republish it, all original links broke in the process.
      - franze 4y ago
        thats cause the date is part of the URL. so changing the date changed the URL, and so thereby violated nr 2 of the Cool URL rules: URL-Rule 1: unique (1 URL == 1 resource, 1 resource == 1 URL) URL-Rule 2: permanent (they do not change, no dependencies to anything) URL-Rule 3: manageable (equals measurable, 1 logic per site section, no complicated exceptions, no exceptions) URL-Rule 4: easily scalable logic URL-Rule 5: short URL-Rule 6: with a variation (partial) of the targeted phrase URL-Rule 1 is more important than 1 to 6 combined, URL-Rule 2 is more important than 2 to 6 combines, … URL-Rule 5 and 6 are a trade-of. 6 is the least important.
    - cma 4y ago
      To game search engine dupe detection maybe?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
grepfru_it 4y ago
Service Now enters the chat...
- sbarre 4y ago
  And everything grinds to a frustrating halt?
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    I wonder if this is any better. I suspect nothing makes these tasks better.
    - grepfru_it 4y ago
      Properly designed, a well integrated cmdb makes tasks easier, faster, and ultimately better. Service Now and sharepoint are great examples of software that aids your tasks when architected properly
- ehPReth 4y ago
  More like Service Never: https://sharepointlist.com https://sharepointlist.com :)
hwestiii 4y ago
Needs better headline.
cudgy 4y ago
“In my previous role, searching for a library or service’s owner involved looking at Google Sheets or maybe asking around in Slack channels that referred me to other Slack channels. It took me sometimes one or more hours just to find an answer to a simple question about another team’s code.” This assumes that there is an “owner” of the code, but code usually changes constantly with documentation drifting out of date as soon as the code is changed significantly. Seems like a product manager might have some of this information as part of a functional specification for the last major effort, but even this will be out of date quickly. This whole problem is organizational in origin. A high level living document should be maintained, especially for APIs that are exposed to third parties. Lack of that document is the fault of management. Not sure how another tool solves that problem.
- scary-size 4y ago
  From what I experienced not a lot of code changes ownership over a period of years. Not saying code always stays at its place. But disagreeing that ownership „usually“ changes with code updates to the code. I do get on board that change in ownership is often a reflection organisational change. Change to often and things fall through the cracks.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    I never meant that “ownership” necessarily changes when a small change is made like a game of hot potato. Usually, this is an ad hoc process where the person or people that performed the last major change or wrote the original version are considered to be the “owner” or at the least someone that may have insight into the code. However, typically developers need to accept the reality of figuring out the code on their own since the “owner” may no longer work at the company or they have no recollection of what they wrote 5 years ago.
bamboozled 4y ago
This is a really bad title?
ChrisArchitect 4y ago
Previous discussion 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343

159 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

depr 4y ago

Why would this be reposted to their blog? They had the same post a few months ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343

Amorymeltzer 4y ago
Weird, the link there has been deleted. Thorough discussion though, folks should indeed head there.
kapep 4y ago
There are some comments on this article that are a few month old. To me it looks like they accidentally updated publication the date.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
conscion 4y ago
See this reply [0], they re-published it as part of a holiday "top 10" [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34083279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34083279

Veuxdo 4y ago

Author might be earnest, but my goodness does this feel like an ad...

michaelbuckbee 4y ago
Is there any actual cost to this? It looks like an open source app with no premium upgrade.
- arnvald 4y ago
  Backstage is introducing premium (paid) plug-ins, they're entering beta stage[0] 0: https://backstage.spotify.com/plugins/ https://backstage.spotify.com/plugins/
vxNsr 4y ago
Especially the way they pivoted to talking about stackoverflow for teams. Felt like it was coming out of left field.

elijaht 4y ago

We used Backstage at a previous company. I was fairly unimpressed- it feels like any knowledge/documentation tool in use at a company where it only works with a lot of discipline to keep it up to date. Curious if others have had better experiences with this

ghaff 4y ago
Not Backstage specifically but I think you're describing documentation generally in a company of any size. Some tools are better (e.g. better search) than others. But documentation is something that's (hopefully mostly) correct the day it's created and tends to get less correct over time and may or may not get updated or formally deprecated. There needs to be a process and probably at least a librarian and even then it's often not obvious. In my experience, a lot of written material gets into the "not quite right any longer but we don't have anything better"--and if you go to update it there's invariably a lot of things that end up getting changed. Not sure I've ever cracked open an old paper or blog post and just changed one thing.
- vxNsr 4y ago
  Yup, in any midsized+ org you need a librarian if you want your doc/kb to be kept in good shape, that person also needs to have a lot of soft power/people skills to enforce rules and procedures many might feel are secondary to their main responsibilities.
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  I had an idea some years ago to gradually lower the contrast on the doc page until the users get frustrated and raise concerns/tickets/escalations. bringing it to a normal contrast again requires a review of the documentation and some kind of punishing if someone just clicks "yeah, it is still fine". I hate outdated documentation, primarily including mine.
  - mgkimsal 4y ago
    Not sure you'd necessarily need to rely on contrast (or... contrast alone - reader mode and similar might render that not noticeable for folks). Some datestamp next to multiple areas with a "last reviewed/approved on" info would likely be useful, esp if someone could flag items that are known out of date/wrong/broken for review, even if they didn't know what 'correct' was. I've hit this multiple times as a new person on a team/project - at least those that had moderate documentation. I know "example A" doesn't work, but I don't yet know why it's wrong or how to fix it, but flagging it for review would help me not lose track of it.

paateetee 4y ago

after the write up, there was a podcast below, now im confused if its called zish or zee-ess-aech? https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/talking-about-our-favorite-terminal-tools-etxyDP2S?recast=6d9e86e0-216a-5990-bf38-af0c0a8c82f3 https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/t... timestamp 1:46

zamadatix 4y ago
I've heard zee-shell (like seashell)/zed-shell most often but I don't think there is any nearly universally accepted way like say bash. I've heard both zish and zee/zed-ess-aitch/haitch before but not as often.
perfect5th 4y ago
The existence of oh-my-zsh has always implied to me a common pronunciation that rhymes with "gosh", which is really the only way their play on words works.
e12e 4y ago
"She sells csh by the sea shore" - changes to voiced s/z for zsh? ("c/see/sea" to (shining) "zee")?
twicetwice 4y ago
I've been pronouncing it as "zeesh" in my head, which works well for me. I think I got that from a coworker? Not sure. Works fairly well with "oh my zeesh" as well, which I like.

Mistletoe 4y ago

Why did I confuse this with Backpage…

bloodyplonker22 4y ago
Ironically, Backstage is an even more appropriate name for it.

andybak 4y ago

Despite this post being dated December 21, 2022, I'm 90% I read this a long time back - 6 months or so maybe.

matkoniecz 4y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343
- ezekg 4y ago
  Knew it sounded familiar. But why would they republish it? The old post now 404s.
  - mormegil 4y ago
    Yes, that is not cool. By coincidence, a few days ago, I followed a link to an SO blog article, but the link was broken, I searched the article title on Google, which led me... to the same 404 page again. So I took to the great Internet Archive which fortunately worked. Only later have I found that because the article in question was so good they chose to republish it, all original links broke in the process.
    - franze 4y ago
      thats cause the date is part of the URL. so changing the date changed the URL, and so thereby violated nr 2 of the Cool URL rules: URL-Rule 1: unique (1 URL == 1 resource, 1 resource == 1 URL) URL-Rule 2: permanent (they do not change, no dependencies to anything) URL-Rule 3: manageable (equals measurable, 1 logic per site section, no complicated exceptions, no exceptions) URL-Rule 4: easily scalable logic URL-Rule 5: short URL-Rule 6: with a variation (partial) of the targeted phrase URL-Rule 1 is more important than 1 to 6 combined, URL-Rule 2 is more important than 2 to 6 combines, … URL-Rule 5 and 6 are a trade-of. 6 is the least important.
  - cma 4y ago
    To game search engine dupe detection maybe?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

grepfru_it 4y ago

Service Now enters the chat...

sbarre 4y ago
And everything grinds to a frustrating halt?
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  I wonder if this is any better. I suspect nothing makes these tasks better.
  - grepfru_it 4y ago
    Properly designed, a well integrated cmdb makes tasks easier, faster, and ultimately better. Service Now and sharepoint are great examples of software that aids your tasks when architected properly
ehPReth 4y ago
More like Service Never: https://sharepointlist.com https://sharepointlist.com :)

hwestiii 4y ago

Needs better headline.

cudgy 4y ago

“In my previous role, searching for a library or service’s owner involved looking at Google Sheets or maybe asking around in Slack channels that referred me to other Slack channels. It took me sometimes one or more hours just to find an answer to a simple question about another team’s code.” This assumes that there is an “owner” of the code, but code usually changes constantly with documentation drifting out of date as soon as the code is changed significantly. Seems like a product manager might have some of this information as part of a functional specification for the last major effort, but even this will be out of date quickly. This whole problem is organizational in origin. A high level living document should be maintained, especially for APIs that are exposed to third parties. Lack of that document is the fault of management. Not sure how another tool solves that problem.

scary-size 4y ago
From what I experienced not a lot of code changes ownership over a period of years. Not saying code always stays at its place. But disagreeing that ownership „usually“ changes with code updates to the code. I do get on board that change in ownership is often a reflection organisational change. Change to often and things fall through the cracks.
- cudgy 4y ago
  I never meant that “ownership” necessarily changes when a small change is made like a game of hot potato. Usually, this is an ad hoc process where the person or people that performed the last major change or wrote the original version are considered to be the “owner” or at the least someone that may have insight into the code. However, typically developers need to accept the reality of figuring out the code on their own since the “owner” may no longer work at the company or they have no recollection of what they wrote 5 years ago.

bamboozled 4y ago

This is a really bad title?

ChrisArchitect 4y ago

Previous discussion 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32909343