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TV disappears, but HBO Max removing shows feels different
- samtheprogram 4y agoThis seems like a smart money grab. Keep the hot titles on streaming to keep your subscriber base, and those who really want to watch the fringe shows will probably pay for them, earning HBO more money. Just recently paid for Angry Boys. It’s totally obvious why they would want to remove it from their platform in this culture, and even more so when they are still selling it elsewhere. I wonder if other titles removed are similarly as politically incorrect, or if it’s another reason like not drawing in a huge audience.
- twoodfin 4y agoThe most likely theory is that HBO (under the former ownership) signed deals on streaming residuals for these shows that make them more expensive to keep available than they’re worth. They expected Westworld, for example, to do Game of Thrones-class numbers and continue to draw subscribers for years as a catalog title. It didn’t sustain that level of interest. And the new ownership doesn’t seem to believe in the value of catalog titles in the first place: I wouldn’t be surprised if The Wire and The Sopranos eventually get moved or sold elsewhere.
- rightbyte 4y agoWell I guess they need to do later seasons good in that case. Westworld season 2 was a joke. From a drama in S1 to mindless b-action in S2.
- twoodfin 4y agoI’d disagree that S2 is where the show went wrong. It holds up quite well on rewatch, with probably 3-4 of the best overall episodes. Ironically, I think Nolan & Joy made the same kind of mistake Dr. Ford criticizes in the premiere: They forgot why people wanted to watch Westworld. Fundamentally, the show was about the park, with all its mystery and detail. They seemed to think it was actually about the ideas around AI, consciousness & free will they wanted to explore. Those were modestly compelling, and enough to ride the momentum of the first couple seasons to some passable storytelling assisted by some great performances. But not the same show at all & the plummeting audience reflected that.
- rightbyte 4y agoYe I agree with the later. People wanted a Western with cowboys. It also had this "Greec theater thing word" were the audience, the guests, knew the story but the actors, the hosts, didn't. Concerning the former I guess that is a matter of taste. I watched it with my wife and she was extremely dissatisfied with the change of genre and pace. Lets pretend you know her. You understand why she disliked it right? She loved S1.
- twoodfin 4y agoYeah, I can imagine a version of that show that’s basically S1 but stretched out much longer. I can also imagine it being quite enjoyable, there was a lot of story space back and front to explore that they didn’t get to before things went to hell in the park. Some of the best parts of S1 were in this mode: “Ooh, Pariah… that’s new and different!” On the other hand, I think it would have required robbing S1 of the coherent, two track, beginning-middle-end story that made it as compelling as any single season of any show.
- oneoff786 4y agoDramatic irony
- rightbyte 4y agoOh ty
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago> the ideas around AI, consciousness & free will they wanted to explore I haven't seen S2, but with that description, and as an avid fan of the various incarnations of Ghost in the Shell, I want to see S2 to see how they explore those concepts.
- listenallyall 4y agoPoorly.
- dbspin 4y agoCouldn't agree more. It's the most rapid descent from prestige television to soap opera in television history. Just took some people longer than others to realise it.
- croes 4y agoSome shows are permanently canned as a tax write-off. Final space for instance https://gamerant.com/final-space-warner-bros-discovery-tax-write-off/ https://gamerant.com/final-space-warner-bros-discovery-tax-w...
- hedora 4y agoIn the short term, you are probably right. In the long term, people will move to the most convenient option. That means the experience has to be better than bit torrent.
- Schnitz 4y agoThere’s a platform where they won’t disappear. (:
- CharlesW 4y agoIf only that were true. Sometimes it disappears while you’re downloading it.
- rthomas6 4y agoYes, physical media.
- chx 4y agoIs there? How much music was lost when oink (and what.cd) was shut down? We will never know but I suspect quite a bit. It can get awfully hard to get hold of obscure records even if they did exist on physical media.
- LarryMullins 4y ago> For decades before the invention of the VCR, any TV show that aired on any given Tuesday night might never be available again,While I was doing research for The Encyclopedia of New York, I spoke with a curator at the Paley Center in New York about how to find out what aired on NBC in its earliest years as a TV broadcasting company and learned there was no way to watch any of it. There were no tapes. The only record is a filing cabinet, which is part of the Paley collection, full of the carefully typed index cards where secretaries kept track of everything that aired on the network. and certainly never in a way that viewers could control. Yeah okay... but we are in a post-VCR world. Are any of these [modern, but removed from streaming] shows not preserved and available through online filesharing? I think they probably all are.
- nopenopenopeno 4y ago
- LarryMullins 4y agoThe article isn't about pre-VRC shows.....
- nopenopenopeno 4y agoThe quote is, though.
- LarryMullins 4y agoWhen I asked "Are any of these shows not preserved and available through online filesharing?", I am asking if any of the shows the article is about aren't available online. The article is about modern shows from 2022 being removed from online streaming. > Did you even read the Right back at you buddy.
- crtasm 4y agoThey're talking about the shows recently removed from HBO.
- letmeinhere 4y agoApparently some of these series are going to be re-licensed to ad-supported networks. [1] I don't think this undermines the premise of this article, that the current crop of streaming execs are moving TV backward to a more ephemeral medium. It's gonna be essential for independent archivists to preserve assets that are being discarded. [1] https://www.polygon.com/23513277/westworld-hbo-where-to-stream-max-shows-removed https://www.polygon.com/23513277/westworld-hbo-where-to-stre...
- twoodfin 4y agoThe ephemerality seems like a side effect of the underlying “problem”: Media consumers want what’s new and hot, that’s where the audience and money are. Prestige TV imported the creative standards and financing levels of Hollywood films into dramatic television. Now, just like the movies, it’s become hit-driven.
- DennisP 4y agoYeah, that doesn't make me feel any better. Generally I have zero interest in watching quality shows with interruptions by ads, but on streaming networks they're especially bad. It's not like they bother putting them in at scene changes, they just jam them in anywhere.
- chihuahua 4y agoJust one anecdote: The Roku Channel (on their free website) is streaming Seasons 1-8 of Great British Bake Off with ads. But with an adblocker, magically there are no ads.
- vrc 4y agoAlso they have such terrible ad inventory that even their top-tier programming gets the same ads at each interval.
- wmf 4y agoAt least HBO releases their shows on disc. Other services that only offer streaming are more concerning.
- dochtman 4y agoHappily, so far the estuary for buccaneers has proven to be much more robust.
- drumhead 4y agoThis is why the high seas matter so much. There will always be a record of the shows there somewhere, in some hoarders collection.
- easton 4y agohttps://archive.vn/cxPbT https://archive.vn/cxPbT
- rthomas6 4y agoI really don't understand why people are surprised. If you don't have access to the file itself, you don't own it. "Buying" a movie on a platform or paying for a subscription service are both just paying for a revokable license to access a movie. You do not own it and access can be revoked at any time according to whatever platform's ToS. If you want to own an actual copy of a TV show or movie, buy the physical disc. Optionally you can rip it and store/stream it digitally. Nobody can take that away from you no matter what anyone decides. It's yours forever. If you can't download the file, you don't own it. Also, most of us are comparatively rich, adult, first worlders. If you like something and want to support it, pay for it! If you literally can't get some obscure media, or if the company is no longer selling it, that's different. But piracy of things you like and want more of is not only unethical, it's shortsighted and immature.
- dave78 4y agoA decent portion of the article was devoted to the physical disc option and how it's increasingly uncommon for that to even be offered as a choice.
- rthomas6 4y agoLike I said, if the company isn't selling the movie/show anymore, well, what choice do you have?
- pmontra 4y agoSome people buy (rent?) videos and books, then download a DRM free copy from bittorrent.
- listenallyall 4y agoBuying a legit copy doesn't make it legal to download a pirated/illegal copy, any more than buying a band's CD makes it legal to sneak into their concert without a ticket.
- kulshan 4y agoThankfully there are still torrent sites archiving movies, series and shows. Pirates save the day!
- foruhar 4y agoUsenet too, old as the hills, continues to archive via NZB/NNTP.
- dougmwne 4y agoI think part of the reason this is a big deal is that it breaks HBO’s brand. They have always been seen as a prestige channel that had a catalog of original programming you’d never see anywhere else. Westworld appeared to be part of this original programming portfolio and something that would live on as part of what it meant to be subscribed to HBO, like the Sopranos. Having the series disappear is like finding out that Disney is jettisoning Toy Story.
- labrador 4y agoYes but Westworld started out with a brilliant first season and went downhill from there until the 4th season was nearly unwatchable. The Sopranos was good right up until the end, which is not how I would have ended it. HBO might as well sell Westworld to a less premium outlet.
- maxfurman 4y agoMany (most) HBO shows do not live up to The Sopranos, and FWIW I completely agree with your assessment of Westworld, but I also agree with GP - part of the pitch of HBOGO, and then Max, is access to the whole back catalog of HBO. The Sopranos, yes, but also John From Cincinnati and a host of other ambitious also-rans. HBO isn't selling off Westworld because it's bad, they're selling it off because their penny pinching CEO doesn't understand what made HBO worth the subscription in the first place.
- labrador 4y agoHe has the numbers though. He can see if hardly anyone is watching Westworld on HBO and calculate he could make more money by selling it and then using that money to create something people do want to watch. As for harming the brand, I know what HBO used to be but don't know if it's that anymore. I don't know anything about calculating a brand image or how much it's worth, so I couldn't say in a landscape of thousands of competing outlets
- magicalist 4y ago
- lowbloodsugar 4y agoAnd this is why I unsubscribed. You can’t sell me Westworld, and then, after I’ve subscribed, take Westworld away so you can license it to some other revenue stream. I’m not paying for some percentage of HBO.
- davewritescode 4y agoWestworld was cancelled without an ending as were some of the other shows on this list like Vinyl which was cancelled after 1 season. Personally I liked both shows at times but I kind of get why you'd not want to steer viewers to dead end shows.
- lupire 4y agoIf that is the justification, then HBO should refund everyone who paid for a product that HBO failed to deliver, and definitely shouldn't sell it to other customers on other platforms.
- devmunchies 4y agoI would love for cancelled shows to have the writers create a script or synopsis of where they wanted to take the show so I could get closure. One show I was in to a while ago was Amazon's Mozart in the Jungle and it was canceled when a new studio head came in. It ended on a cliff hanger.
- midoridensha 4y agoI think the show "Lost" showed that many shows simply don't have any kind of long-term direction; the writers just make stuff up as they go along.
- ProjectArcturis 4y agoI'd still like to watch the old episodes of HBO's Real Sex. As far as I know, that was never available on their streaming platforms. I guess they were going for "Prestige TV", and Real Sex was too close to late-night smut. Even on torrents, I can only find a few episodes.
- indigodaddy 4y agoAlso the excellent early 90s HBO show Dream On is a lost relic never likely to be resurrected.
- thewebcount 4y agoIt’s funny because I actually watched an episode or two of Real Sex on my iPhone several years ago. I don’t recall whether it was off of their website or through their app, though.
- unity1001 4y agoIt feels like this is a problem that requires wearing a very specific hat to solve. A stylish, black one. With white insignia...
- bgorman 4y agoI am a pretty loyal HBO max customer, despite the troubles with the service. The content is just too good. I thought this would be about B-tier content. But Westworld? Arguably HBOs biggest hit since game of thrones? What are the MBAs looking at? It was bad enough that Westworld was not in 4K. Now that the White Lotus is over, maybe i should cancel
- philliphaydon 4y agoI was gonna watch west world the other day but found out it’s cancelled? :(
- listenallyall 4y agoWestworld is a uniquely terrible show. HBO is doing you a favor by removing it.
- philliphaydon 4y agoI thought it was meant to be good? 8.5 on IMDB.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago> The content is just too good. Considering the new bosses have a reputation for producing pure garbage media, I would expect this to change in the near future.
- indigodaddy 4y agoDVD Netflix service (yes this service is still around, albeit the library a fleeting image of what it once was) has the first 3 seasons of Westworld on Bluray [1]. Hopefully they’ll have S4 soon as well. [1] https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Westworld/80066897 https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Westworld/80066897
- germinalphrase 4y agoOn that pan, are you able to filter your search by Blu-ray vs DVD?
- indigodaddy 4y agoI don’t believe so— once you click on a title from the search you then find out if it’s available as Bluray or DVD I believe.
- aaron695 4y ago
- HelixEndeavor 4y agoPhysical media remains king
- rchaud 4y agoYep, but I can see the day coming when the major studios stop releasing DVDs and Blu-rays altogether to clear a path for their streaming offerings.
- WalterBright 4y agoI'm sad that the Rocky+Bullwinkle complete set I bought has different music from when it was aired. I'm sorry, I just hate the replacement music and it ruined the cartoon for me. I do have a couple VHS tapes that had the cartoons with the original music.
- Wingman4l7 4y agoThis also happened with the TV show Northern Exposure, which had a notably great soundtrack. They couldn't get rights to a lot of the music, so it was replaced with more mediocre stuff on the hardcopy releases. Apparently, it's happened to other shows, too: https://www.vox.com/2014/11/3/7145231/shows-not-on-dvd-music-rights-wonder-years-wkrp https://www.vox.com/2014/11/3/7145231/shows-not-on-dvd-music...
- roody15 4y agoAs companies make more and more moves like this … something tells me piracy is going to see a big uptick.
- cletus 4y agoThis feels like a contract issue. Rumor has it the issue is residuals but on the face of it that doesn't make sense. Why? Because you would expect residuals on a streaming service to have somethign to do with how many people watched the show. If that were the case, there'd be no reason to remove it. So the obvious answer is that's not how it works. My guess is that HBO is paying residuals for having the show available regardless of whether or not people watch it. The problem then is that not enough people were watching it. That makes sense given it was also cancelled recently. Another potential reason is the way residuals are structured. Writers' residuals decay over time. That is you might get $1000 for writing a show that you wrote a year ago and is broadast/streamed. If it's a 10 year old show you might get $100 for the same audience. Residuals for writers for streaming service is one of the big issues threatening to boil over into another writers guild strike. Given that though, HBO might be removing Westworld while residuals are the most expensive and it could come back in a couple of years. Yes, there's a lot of speculation here. I agree it does feel like HBO is breaking their viewer expectations by removing one of their own originals.
- Izkata 4y ago> The problem then is that not enough people were watching it. That makes sense given it was also cancelled recently. Ouch, apparently the writers were even planning on the next season being the final one.
- Guvante 4y agoFirst of all this move is enough for me to never subscribe to HBO Max so don't take my defense as positive, just explanatory. > If that were the case, there'd be no reason to remove it If the deep parts of the catalog don't generate subscriptions they are a money hole. Remember you don't want to supply users with everything they want when paying residuals. You want to give them exactly enough content to justify the subscription cost and nothing more. The ideal user is one that only watches a single show and nothing else. Of course the problem with this perspective is it assumes users ignore such actions. Hopefully the user base proves them wrong. > Given that though, HBO might be removing Westworld while residuals are the most expensive and it could come back in a couple of years. That isn't necessarily true, it could be that by pulling the content the residuals are frozen or even worse (as someone suggested on an article on the topic) reset when you begin streaming again. > I agree it does feel like HBO is breaking their viewer expectations by removing one of their own originals. Honestly I would bet a lot of money viewers were ignored for this discussion. It is exactly the kind of "short term profit at all costs" play that has become more popular.
- tyingq 4y agoThe practice of Amazon Prime, Frontier, and other on-demand services just up and removing movies (or tv shows) you "bought" is weirder to me. I assume it's because they lost rights in some negotiation, but the movies just disappear. No notice, no refund.
- LeoPanthera 4y agoDoes this actually happen? It was my understanding that they disappear from the store, but if you already bought it, you still have access to it.
- tyingq 4y agoIt happened to me with both providers I mentioned. With Frontier, it's when they bought Verizon FIOS, and I lost several movies. On Amazon Prime Video, I lost 2 seasons of a British detective show.
- Matthias247 4y agohave you really bought it, in terms of paying extra money besides the prime costs just for the show? Or just subscribed to prime? Since you put "bought" in quotes I guess it could mean both. And I think LeoPanthera was referring to that things that are payed extra for shouldn't vanish - which would also have been my understanding. So far everything payed extra for is still there - but it's a sample size of 2 mainstream movies, so it probably doesn't tell much.
- tyingq 4y agoI mean specifically paid to "buy" that movie and/or TV show. As opposed to either renting it, or it coming with the service subscription. I put "buy" in quotes because in hindsight, that's clearly not what happened.
- Others 4y agoThis should never happen on Prime Video. Major breach of customer trust. If it’s happened to you please call customer service and complain. If they can’t fix it or refund you, please get in touch with me and I will try and get it fixed for you
- AdamJacobMuller 4y agoHBO was the original prestige programming channel, Netflix briefly got into that game but seems to have given up and preferring on making programming decisions solely based on KPIs to maximize total profit and now it seems like HBO will no longer be any kind of prestige programming destination. Is there anywhere now to pick up the prestige programming torch?
- wankle 4y agoI breezed through the article, we don't watch TV on the streaming services. We use free HD OTA since we're not that far from the towers. Do a lot of people watch TV shows on the streaming networks? It doesn't seem like something I'd want to pay for or if I did, maybe I'd just go back to cable? We use streaming services for movies and documentaries.
- imgabe 4y agoYes, many people watch shows and n streaming services. Why would cable be preferred? With streaming you can watch any time you want not on a fixed schedule.
- wankle 4y agoCable isn't preferred. If OTA weren't available I guess we'd watch shows on streaming. OTA works great though, was just wondering.
- gnicholas 4y agoDo you watch OTA live? I am shocked by the number/length of commercials on OTA broadcasts. Even when I watch network television from NBC/CBS/etc. on their websites, it's much easier to switch to a different window, mute the volume, and check back in a minute or two (and rewind if needed).
- shmerl 4y agoThat totally won't motivate anyone to pirate removed shows.
- zxcvbn4038 4y agoNostalgia - I missed so much stuff forever as a kid because I had to eat dinner right that damn second, for some reason it was not possible to eat dinner five minutes later, at the commercial, while watching something that there would never be an opportunity to watch again. It took my parents forty years to loosen up on their dinner time schedule - these days they are perfectly happy to watch TV during dinner, next to their grandchildren. Though it is still an occasional pain when a show like Firefly or Stargate Universe gets canceled before it’s time. Whatever happened to “Er ist wieder da”? It seemed to disappear everywhere overnight.
- hobbitstan 4y agoMany years ago I read a story, that I took as potential fiction, about a very rich man in Eastern Europe who hired warez scene kids to digitize all the movies, TV shows, and music they could. There were financial incentives involved and the files could be shared freely, as long as he had copies. The idea that, somewhere out there, is a man sitting on petabytes of digital media, like a James Bond villain, makes me smile.
- napier 4y agoFortunately, there are many such men. And their time is nigh again.
- malermeister 4y agoJames Bond villain or the Noah of our times?
- xracy 4y agoThe proliferation of streaming on demand video services that you have to subscribe for as well as things like this, feels like they want customers to go back to the pirating days of the internet. I legitimately think the reason most people paid for streaming, was that they wanted to support the shows they liked. But the moment services get greedy, it feels that much easier to cut them loose.
- verdenti 4y ago