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No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime
- treeman79 4y agoBeen noticing a lot of articles on people being advised to be euthanized for depression and other concerns.
- crooked-v 4y agoWhat articles, exactly?
- 37 4y agoIn the sixth paragraph of the second section, the article links to the following examples: [0] https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/dying-for-the-right-to-live/ https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/dying-for-the-right-to-live/ [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-disabilities-nears-medically-assisted-death-after-futile-bid-for-affordable-housing-1.5882202 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-disabilities-nears-... [2] https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivities-chose-medically-assisted-death-after-failed-bid-to-get-better-housing-1.5860579 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivit... [3] https://www.thestar.com/2022/assisted-death.html https://www.thestar.com/2022/assisted-death.html [4] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investig... [5] https://nypost.com/2022/08/22/canadian-soldier-with-ptsd-outraged-when-va-suggested-euthanasia/ https://nypost.com/2022/08/22/canadian-soldier-with-ptsd-out... [6] https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wh...
- slaw 4y agoI only read one article about para-olympic person asking for help and given suggestion to commit suicide instead.
- mmastrac 4y agoAnd that person was in veteran affairs, a lone case, and is no longer in that position. [1] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investig...
- FpUser 4y agoThanks to a big PR around that particular case. And what if the press did not decide to make a story about it?
- mmastrac 4y agoThe whole argument against MAID feels ridiculously like the anti-abortion position. The other option to providing it is having them end their life in a way that might be risky or fail to succeed in a way that leaves them painfully scarred for life or suffering more than they had to. Why are people forced to live if they don't want to?
- bjt2n3904 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bloaf 4y agoI think it is more analogous to the laws prohibiting people from selling their own organs. The problem isn't that organ transplants are immoral, the problem is that allowing it can create perverse incentives especially for disadvantaged groups. If you squint at MAID one way, you can see all the good it does for people who really need it. If you squint another way, you can see the medical system just killing off the people it failed.
- bmelton 4y agoI am sympathetic to those who wish for assisted suicide to prevent pain for diseases or illnesses they've succumbed to. I agree with your thesis that death may be preferential to suffering, and should be available to those who seek it. On the other hand, there are articles like this[1], wherein the main factor for the requested euthanasia is income. "But until recently, he was able to live comfortably, sharing his modest home in Medicine Hat, Alberta, with his service dog. Changes to his state benefits when he turned 65 in May meant his income was cut and he's now left with around $120 per month after paying for medical bills and essentials." The bogeyman against a state monopoly on medical care has long been that the state will seek cost effectiveness over quality of care, and this adds the additional paranoia of worrying over whether other social safety net programs may lean into the notion that perhaps it isn't as beneficial to fund those who are less productive members of society due to age or inability when it is easier to put them down. I don't have a particular dog in the fight either way, but where I want medical assisted euthanasia to exist as an option against suffering, I have some concern that it could become encouraged for what I consider less appropriate ailments, like poverty. [1] - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11516989/Canadian-man-doctors-approval-euthanasia-despite-admitting-POVERTY-main-factor.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11516989/Canadian-m...
- htag 4y ago> The Canadian Association of MAID Assessors and Providers, the leading organization of Canadian euthanasia providers, has sat on credible evidence by its own members that people are being driven to euthanasia by credit card debt, poor housing, and difficulties getting medical care. Did I miss the actual concrete evidence this is being purposefully being used to reduce certain populations?
- janef0421 4y agoIt doesn't really matter what the intent of the government and medical establishment is; In fact, it may not even be coherent to attribute intent to such an entity. What matters is what the system does, and the evidence clearly indicates that the MAiD system is resulting in the deaths of the socially marginalised.
- htag 4y ago> the evidence clearly indicates that the MAiD system is resulting in the deaths of the socially marginalised The enter point of the MAiD system is to result in deaths. I think the intent matters a lot. I don't think it's a cause for alarm if we find some subpopulations that use a medical service more than others. I do think it's alarming if people are scheming to kill poor people.
- bjt2n3904 4y ago
- tomrod 4y ago
- _-david-_ 4y agoDo you have any evidence this article has factual errors or are you just slandering the author?
- tomrod 4y ago> But the CAMAP recordings plainly suggest that exactly this is happening, that euthanasia workers know it, and that they are acting with no urgency to stop it. One example: this is an assertion made from cherrypicked quotes above. Having seen apologists and detractors from other domains sets off a red flag when this happens. Is it "factual error"? Depends. Do you consider logical fallacies to be factual errors? I encourage a re-read of the article with skepticism.
- whimsicalism 4y agoSurprised the author managed to get interviews with the people they did, given their pretty obvious anti-euthanasia slant.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y agoTaken to a logical extreme, the underlying premise of this article is that MAID should only be available to the wealthy. People with disabilities and/or grievous suffering from illness(es) tend to be depressed, especially when finances and supports are lacking. If we restrict MAID to the wealthy without mental conditions, we end up prolonging the suffering of many people.
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
- joe_the_user 4y agoI'd say any state-facilitated euthanasia needs to be extremely carefully considered in situations where suicide is a recommended and facilitated option to avoid homelessness and related disasters. Of course, I'm also in favor of just not organizing benefits so that disabled people wind-up facing homelessness and so being willing to choose death.
- tomrod 4y agoWe agree on both of these points.
- joe_the_user 4y agoAnd there's significant evidence on this thread that Canada isn't doing that serious consideration and that's a huge problem, a literal crime against humanity imo.
- CosmicShadow 4y agoSeems like a stretching propaganda hit piece from the anti-abortion crowd stretching into calling the "current" Canadian Government in power a "regime" that kills poor people by...get this...convincing doctors to convincingly get poor and unhealthy people to go past every fucking alarm bell and human instinct and literally kill themselves with their assistance to somehow be less of a burden on the state? Somehow a small group of people killing themselves will make any difference financially or politically somehow to a country or party? And every comment against it seems downvoted, yeah ok....
- willhslade 4y agoI suggest you do a little reading. I'm Canadian and it's alarming. It's already apparently 2.5% of deaths in Canada. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2020.html#3_2 https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi... We have credible reports of a person aged 23 who was approved for medically assisted death because they were diabetic and depressed. https://www.thefp.com/p/scheduled-to-die-the-rise-of-canadas https://www.thefp.com/p/scheduled-to-die-the-rise-of-canadas The top 1% of patients use approximately 30% of the total cost of health care. https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-014-0532-2 https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/... The Canadian health care system is extremely strained. We are already in an age of hallway medicine as there aren't enough staff to treat the people in rooms. https://www.cma.ca/news/canadas-health-care-crisis-what-we-need-now https://www.cma.ca/news/canadas-health-care-crisis-what-we-n...
- mmastrac 4y agoThe breakdown of MAID by main condition is interesting, and suggests that the vast majority (~70%) are cancer patients avoiding a painful, prolonged and terrible death. This would also suggest that once we get even better at cancer treatments, the rate of people dying to MAID will drop dramatically. Later in the stats, ~80% of people have lost the ability to engage in activities of daily life (which IMO is a terrible place to be). I don't think your reference supports your claim at all. In fact, it suggests that it's doing exactly what it is meant to do: ending unnecessary suffering for those who are dying of diseases we don't yet have a cure to.
- goatsi 4y ago>One of the greatest reasons for concern is the sheer scale of Canada’s euthanasia regime. California provides a useful point of comparison: It legalized medically assisted death the same year as Canada, 2016, and it has about the same population, just under forty million. In 2021 in California, 486 people died using the state’s assisted suicide program. In Canada in the same year, 10,064 people used MAID to die. 70% of the Canadians reported cancer as the reason for MAID. It sounds like thousands of Californians are experiencing unnecessary and extended end of life suffering.
- ElFitz 4y agoOr perhaps cancer is better treated in California. Or perhaps palliative care is better in California. I’m not Californian, and I seriously doubt what I just wrote. But there most certainly are more factors that need to be considered here.
- tomrod 4y agoCould you point to the stats for the other 3,000? This is an interesting case. It shows the categories of health issues that seek assisted suicide.
- goatsi 4y agoHere you go: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2020.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi... >The majority of persons receiving MAID during 2020 were reported as having cancer as their main underlying medical condition (69.1%). This is followed by cardiovascular conditions (13.8%), chronic respiratory conditions (11.3%) and neurological conditions (10.2%) Some additional breakdowns: >Cardiovascular conditions were the second most frequently cited main condition for persons receiving MAID. Congestive heart failure was the most frequently cited heart condition in this category (42.2%). Under respiratory conditions, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) was the most frequently listed condition. >Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also commonly known as Lou Gehrig's disease, was the leading neurological condition reported for persons receiving MAID (35.2%), followed by Parkinson's disease (18.1%) multiple sclerosis (MS) (9.7%), and progressive supranuclear palsy (4.4%). Edit: Just realized that was the 2020 report (with around 7500 using MAID). The 2021 report is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying/annual-report-2021.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi.... Cancer is down a bit in this one (69% to 65%).
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoIt's absurd that people will show their sick pets more compassion than fellow human beings when animals can't even voice their opinions on the matter. If someone sound of mind chooses to die, that should be their right.
- bluefirebrand 4y agoI don't know if people view euthanasia as being more compassionate towards their pets. I think many people view it as being selfish. Killing the pet to avoid the hassle of dealing with it's illness and avoid the expense of it's medical care. I don't particularly agree, I think it can be compassionate but also understand where this view comes from.
- labster 4y agoEvery dog owner I’ve talked to about the end of life of their prior pets mentions how hard it was to let go. The selfish act is to preserve the relationship with your pet for your own emotional needs, and peace comes once you acknowledge the suffering of the animal. The expense of medical care for pets is often the wrong way of looking at it. A dog doesn’t understand chemotherapy, it only knows it feels really sick. It doesn’t understand invasive surgery, it just knows pain, and wearing the cone of shame. Dogs don’t have the same inner life that we do, so a lot of medical interventions would cause a lot of suffering for what, a few months more life? And if you don’t want the hassle of dealing with a pet’s illness, don’t get a pet. The relationship you build with a pet should make you understand you owe them your loyalty in the bad times, not just the good.
- x86x87 4y agoI have literally never heard of someone who killed their pet to avoid the hassle of dealing with illness. I have heard of multiple people that kept the pet alive and kept pumping in more and more expensive treatments because they could not let go. Killing a pet that is practically family and has been part of your life for 10+ years is not something people do to avoid responsibility.
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- testemailfordg2 4y agoWhen death as a service is more affordable than gift of happy, healthy and fullfilling life, interesting times we live in.
- BrandoElFollito 4y agoNo, it is not more affordable. At least in France where assisted suicide is not an option (yes, we are a barbaric and coward country in some aspects). As for the gift of happy, healthy and fulfilling life - you may want to have a word with my wife suffering from MS. It is fortunate that we have neighboring countries that are not as hypocrite as France is and where you can end your life when you want to.
- igorkraw 4y agoThis is a weird article to me. It seems to criticize the program for not failing to adequately force people to live in a society that makes them want to die. It even quotes someone pointing out that a high usage rate by people driven to give up on life by out of control housing and cost of living prices without sufficient income, or those unable to afford other treatments could be a leverage for arguing for better designed welfare (UBI?) or markets - but it's framed as callous, ridiculous idea while we still make it "too easy to die"? Like, I don't think people need a lot of help convincing themselves of not wanting to die unless they are already desperate, and making access to death harder is like forcing the homeless to take a one way bus to another town - you are just hiding the problem. As long as nobody is pushed to use the program, the same arguments that say "well, nobody is forcing you to take that shitty job/pay that exorbitant rent" apply. It's just that in this case, the signal sent by multiple people choosing death over life because the system isn't working for then is very clearly "what the fuck are you doing to poor people", which is an uncomfortable question, so the impulse is to make access to death harder - then you can again ignore the fact that these people might commit suicide anyway, or suffer immensely, because that will show up just as mental illness or personal failure in the statistics
- n8henrie 4y agoIn the US, when people have intolerable lives, we let them commit suicide the good-old-fashioned way.
- 0xbadc0de5 4y agoIt's strikes me as worrisome that someone who's paid to perform euthenasia would also be in a position to counsel it to patients. That seems like a rather serious conflict of interest. Discussion of this sort of thing should only ever be initiated by the patient to an objective third party review board. I personally have serious concerns about the ethics of any doctor offering death as medical advice.
- tomohawk 4y ago> In multiple cases, veterans requesting help from Veterans Affairs Canada — at least one asked for PTSD treatment, another for a ramp for her wheelchair — were asked by case workers if they would like to apply for euthanasia. This is such a conflict of interest. How are you supposed to trust organizations and people who, when you ask for help, might be motivated to take advantage of your vulnerability?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]