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Well it seems like Elon is reneging on his previous commitment to free speech. - https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1589414958508691456 https://twitter.com/el
by alarmingfox 4y ago
Well it seems like Elon is reneging on his previous commitment to free speech.
- https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1589414958508691456 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1589414958508691456
- Finnucane 4y agoHis commitment to free speech extends to what he personally approves.
- mannykannot 4y agoHis commitment to his free speech is unwavering.
- WJW 4y agoUnwaveringly low?
- awb 4y agoHis commitment to his free speech is unwavering
- Jaepa 4y agoHey its not just his free speech – its also the free speech of those who agree with him, or is politically aligned with him.
- emodendroket 4y agoNote: subject to change
- yieldcrv 4y agoHe is using the concept of legal free speech correctly while memeing about a philosophical free speech that matches the colloquialism that many of his sycophants and observers think Legal free speech has only to do with retribution via criminal liability from government organizations, alongside freedom to disassociate from speech and expression that you don't like Twitter is not a government organization and is also not capable of levying criminal charges against anyone, and is free to disassociate from speech and expression it doesn't like thanks to the 1st amendment. Yes, this is the same capability as anyone else and the same possibility as Twitter operated before, aside from different choices of who its leadership chooses to dis/associate with. It is an accurate commitment to free speech.
- JoelMcCracken 4y agoSo he's doing the same thing twitter was doing pre-acquisition, without pre-acquisition-twitter memeing about "philosophical free speech"?
- yieldcrv 4y agoYes, correct
- IgorPartola 4y agoRemember all those comments on HN for how right Musk is to decent free speech and how this is definitely going to improve Twitter? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
- pepperidgeFarm 4y agoYes I do.
- helmholtz 4y agoBrilliant.
- isoprophlex 4y agoCan we please have some intellectually stimulating discussion, or thoughtful jokes, or at least lowbrow humor that is somewhat original instead of these reddit-tier tired old memes..?
- minimaxir 4y agoGiven the amount of downvoted "republishing public data is the real crime!" comments in this thread, tired old memes are indeed a conversational improvement.
- theturtletalks 4y agoIt's why I prefer HN over Reddit nowadays. For popular posts, you have to scroll so far on Reddit before you hit meaningful discussion. Although the anecdotes and story-telling on Reddit is unmatched.
- gisely 4y agoYes the HN cogniscenti have such a fine sense of humor. Why share some of it lads? Nah man, jokes are forbidden on HN.
- avereveard 4y ago
- hospadar 4y agoWell not really _free_, it did cost $44B (:
- dzdt 4y agoThe "[lack of]" parenthetical is implied. Yes.
- barbariangrunge 4y agoPhilosophically, I think his “freedom of reach” distinction is a hack/loophole without a strong basis. Twitter is a promotion service, just like Facebook (in each, they let users promote themselves in exchange for being targeted for promotion by others). The entire point of it is to promote content. It is not a content platform, except by coincidence. Once you “maximum derank” somebody, you are denying them access to the whole point of the service. By all means, ban the users you don’t want. Keep your service free of toxicity. Nobody likes a forum full of trolls. But don’t call it “free speech”
- djur 4y agoIf there was a setting I could use to "maximum derank" my account I'd use it without hesitation. I want to talk to my friends, not get yelled at by randos. I hate it when a tweet starts getting attention.
- ncr100 4y agoSome people are freer than others. /s
- yanderekko 4y agoSerious question: Is there an alternative narrative here? People are acting like Musk changed course for no reason, but are there no real claims that the account perhaps had started to engage in other rule-breaking content? Note that I'm asking for an actual steelmanned argument for why there's no possible defense of Musk here, not why people have high priors to just assume there's no defense.
- nerdix 4y agoFree speech is subject to rules? Because Twitter had rules and they enforced those rules which led to bans/suspensions...and people were upset about that on free speech grounds.
- throwaway894345 4y agoThe implication that free speech people are hypocrites is a little premature. The policies just changed. I'm sure there will be several opportunities before the day is over to gotcha someone in some genuine hypocrisy, but let's see how this one plays out.
- afavour 4y agoIf there is the only people that can say as such are Twitter and/or Musk himself. So far we’ve heard nothing.
- X6S1x6Okd1st 4y agoNothing unusual on the FB account https://m.facebook.com/ElonJet/ https://m.facebook.com/ElonJet/
- LastTrain 4y ago"ElonJet is Now Suspended" is the narrative.
- Cthulhu_ 4y agoLike what? Musk, the self-proclaimed free speech absolutionist, said he removed most policies and whatnot.
- outside1234 4y agoSurprise, Surprise PS. Boo!
- mrtksn 4y agoThe good thing about Musk claiming Free speech absolutism is that we can hold him responsible for it. He might be a free speech NIMBY but because he claims to support free speech, his actions that clearly contradict this claim have very heavy toll on his persona. IMHO Musk has a real opportunity to actually make Twitter great, Twitter was in a horrible shape and no one was happy with its state and I hoped that he can fix it because Musk is a product person. Unfortunately every passing day I'm losing hope. Even if he can fix it as a product, it seems like he will bomb it as a community. No one ever forgot the calling the diver pedo incident and his handling Twitter can severely damage his image. There is a reason why people pay Musk thousands of dollars for features that don't exist or cars that are not well build and still don't go after him like people went after Elizabeth Holmes and I'm afraid he might eventually burn out his social credit and be judged promptly for whatever he delivers without a slack.
- lucideer 4y ago> have very heavy toll on his persona His supporters are fanatical - none of his previous abhorrent actions have had a heavy toll, so it's unclear why this one should. He is certainly receiving a large backlash to his recent actions, but I think that's more a case of people (outside of tech) who would've paid little attention to him before being forced to be more fully aware of his existence, than anyone who previously supported him thinking less of him.
- rootusrootus 4y agoThere's a very real argument to be made now that remaining publicly in control of Tesla is bad for TSLA shareholders. The brand is going to suffer if he doesn't at least put a plausible puppet at the head of the company. Twitter is already a lost cause. He wanted to create a more popular Parler. Probably it'll just end up in the same place with the same niche user base. At least SpaceX has Gwynn.
- ceejayoz 4y ago> At least SpaceX has Gwynn. This also seems to be reassuring to NASA. "'I hugged her with a smile on my face, because I know she is running that thing. She’s running SpaceX,' Nelson said." https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/spacex-leader-reassured-nasa-chief-elson-musk-rcna61189 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/spacex-leader...
- starkd 4y agoBanning accounts such as this is not at all inconsistent with banning accounts with the stated intent to track or surveil an individual. Accounts such as this are dangerous and no one needs to know his travel plans. The need for privacy does not interfere with anyone's freedom of speech here.
- velmu 4y agoWhy is https://twitter.com/PutinJet https://twitter.com/PutinJet still up?
- kirkbackus 4y agoFlight information provided to the FAA is considered public information. This is funded with taxpayer money, and is not privy to privacy.
- starkd 4y agoTo put it in such a highly accessible form is an invitation to crackpots. Crackpots and mobs generally do not get incited by FAA travel logs that requires some diligence to track.
- rootusrootus 4y agoSo we should shut down flightradar24, too, I assume? Because that's a lot more highly accessible than a twitter account and has real time status. On all planes, not just Elon's. The horror!
- chinathrow 4y agoNot true. Fr24 does not show Elons Jets.
- rootusrootus 4y agoTrue, FR24 will sell you the ability to exclude yourself from their map. Go to ADSBExchange, then. Or another public ADS-B aggregator of your choice.
- nodesocket 4y ago
- Flipflip79 4y agoNo, this is publicly available information. Flight tracks are not private
- nodesocket 4y agoSo are phone numbers and addresses if you look hard enough, but Twitters policy “or they claim” is to protect against doxing and such right?
- hef19898 4y agoFlight plans are public, passenger lists are not.
- hef19898 4y agoEven the CIA flights of kidnapped people to the various black prison sites were public. Using that data, the Austrian Airfoce intercepted and escorted one of those flights out of Austrian airspace.
- starkd 4y agoIt doesn't matter if its publicly available. To aggregate the data in such an easily accessible form is an invitation to crackpots. Few crackpots are going to seek out such information unless they are truly dedicated from the get-go.
- rootusrootus 4y agoCrackpots were already using FR24, or just their own ADS-B receivers if it was local. The twitter account is just for entertainment.
- chinathrow 4y ago
- lettergram 4y agoNot that I think it should be banned (I don't think it should) I think it's also obvious that this jet tracker doesn't exactly aid in the public discourse, it seems far closer to targeted harassment.. Again, I don't think anything should be banned outside of direct threats (I'm a free speech absolutist). But it does seem clear, even from that tweet by Musk, that that twitter account seemed to impact his personal safety.
- aardvarkr 4y agoOh no, a billionaire felt bullied because someone posted public flight tracking data on social media? That’s nowhere near the bar for “targeted harassment”. You know what is? That same billionaire has been calling people pedophiles in a targeted attempt at character assassination.
- timeon 4y agoI'm not ... but... So which is it?
- LimitedInfo 4y agoserious question, does free speech extend to doxing? Personally I wouldn't like if there was a twitter that constantly tweeted the location of my car.
- phailhaus 4y agoFlight data is already public, the account was "just" posting about it on Twitter.
- EarlKing 4y agoSo if I find your phone number in the white pages you'll have no problem with everyone knowing it, right? Because that's public information, right?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- qaz_plm 4y agoCorrect
- matharmin 4y agoYes, exactly that. If it's in the white pages, everyone already has access to it.
- ta8903 4y agoI don't think that's true, most cases of doxxing happen with publicly available information. But I guess you could argue doxxing isn't really "illegal."
- EarlKing 4y agoMost doxing involves using publicly available information to harass others... and yet that behavior is frowned upon everywhere. I don't think anyone here honestly believes that account was used for anything other than to encourage the stalking and harassment of Elon Musk because the account owner simply doesn't like him. I also don't think anyone here seriously believes that stalking and harassing people is "free speech". I do believe people here are letting their class bias show.
- EarlKing 4y agoJust so we're clear: You'll be totally in favor of maintaining the accounts of anyone who routinely posts the location of others, including yourself, right? Because that's not stalking at all... right?
- woodruffw 4y agoRelitigating this is not going to be fruitful: Elon Musk is a public figure who chooses to fly by private jet. Callsigns and flight status are public information by necessity.
- EarlKing 4y agoBeing a public figure does not mean you have a right to stalk and harass him. It means you get to have a higher bar to charges of defamation for things said about them and nothing more.
- woodruffw 4y agoTracking an aircraft's callsign does not remotely approach the bar for "stalking and harassing." Put another way: the courts have overwhelmingly recognized the rights of "paparazzi": if you're a public figure, there is going to be independent public interest in your life. The interest can't be intrusive (meaning that it doesn't enable someone to break into your house and take pictures of your underwear drawer), but it does allow citizens to use any public information available to them. Since airplane information is public by necessity, there is no reasonable legal structure that enhances Musk's privacy without compromising well-trodden expression rights.
- troyvit 4y agoIt's all about what we call a "reasonable expectation of privacy" right? And all Sweeney did was publish information that was already publicly available[1], right? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sweeney https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sweeney
- 4y ago
- nashashmi 4y agoHe trashes people who trash talk his cars. Even if you happened to die while testing his auto pilot feature. Yeah. He will trash talk you while you are rolling in your grave thinking Elon was god. And then god comes to show you how amazing your god was. He trashed talk a journalist immediately after the journalist complained he had to journey thru cold with out heater because his batteries would not last until the next charging point. He trashed talk the short sellers. He trashed talk the ones who supported the short sellers. He trashed talk the ones who might as well be supporting the short sellers, e.g. sec aka shortseller enrichment commission aka security exchange commission. He is a small guy with a oversized largely sensitive ego. But most notoriously, he is a terrible public speaker. Like my public speaking teacher would be more ashamed at him than me.
- AlexandrB 4y agoI think all of this is part of his appeal. He's more "scruffy" and unfiltered than most people with his prominence and responsibilities. But it's easy to confuse this lack of a filter for honesty, when the two may be entirely orthogonal. Elon's communication style is also good for forming "parasocial" relationships with his audience which explains how loyal and fervent many of his fans are.
- strikelaserclaw 4y agoi view Elon's fanbase as being equivalent to the fanbase that twitch streamers like xqc have, probably not well adjusted people who need to idolize someone in which they can see some characteristics in common (social awkwardness, thinking they are smarter than others etc...)
- anigbrowl 4y agoElon's communication style is also good for forming "parasocial" relationships tbh I find the widespread habit of referring to him by his first name like he's a personal acquaintance to be part of this mechanism. This is something tabloid newspapers do with sport and entertainment celebrities to milk money from fans who gravitate toward others who seem to be part of 'the family.' It's a PR strategy designed to exploit human social circuitry and convert it into cash money.
- dalbasal 4y agoCommitment (his word, not yours) is a bit strong. The vast majority of free speech related discussion is disingenuous, ignorant or otherwise unserious. Free speech is complicated. Saying you'll "do free speech" without refering to implementation or intended resolution to various free speech dilemmas... that means you're probably not going to do free speech. The part that I find most annoying is when politicians bring it up this way. It seems to be the one issue where nonseriousness meets fake passion most intimately.
- CommieBobDole 4y agoI think Musk's behavior (and the behavior of a lot of public figures, really) makes more sense if you assume that he's not saying things to express ideas, but instead regards words as noises that you make with your mouth that cause other people to do or think things; if they stop having the intended effect, you have to change the noises. It's not hypocrisy, it's the natural outgrowth of seeing other people as a collection of vague moving objects that either do things for you or cause problems for you.
- busyant 4y agoThis is poetry. And it has the added benefit of being true.
- m_fayer 4y agoYep. Poetry that leads to the horrifying realization that many of our elites live in a world surrounded by p-zombies, and somehow, this doesn't give them a moment's pause.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- m_fayer 4y agoThis is not far from how spectrum-y people see others unless they're motivated to overcome their deficiencies. I don't think that's a coincidence.
- kstenerud 4y agoPlease don't push this kind of stereotype. It's offensive and not even correct.
- CoastalCoder 4y agoI can't tell of the parent comment is a troll or just shockingly ignorant. So let's just say, citation needed.
- eranation 4y agoJust watched Citizen Kane yesterday, reminds me of the "Declaration of Principles"
- cbtacy 4y agoAnyone who still believes anything the man says needs help.
- m3kw9 4y agoIt’s not free speech if it affects someones safety. Elon is a gated figure and people knowing where he is at all times definitely would not increase safety and could prevent violence
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kernal 4y ago>Well it seems like Elon is reneging on his previous commitment to free speech. Just curious, would you be ok with some guy tracking the location of your kids on a hourly basis?
- jchmrt 4y agoThis question is clearly not relevant to the parent comment, since the linked tweet explicitly states that he would not ban this account as part of his commitment to free speech.
- gitfan86 4y agoElon, like a lot of people underestimates how much power corrupts. It is really easy to say "I would never cheat on my boyfriend/girlfriend when you don't have tons of attractive people throwing themselves at you" same thing here. It is really easy to say you believe in free speech when you don't have the ability to silence someone that you think may be putting your family in danger.
- bboygravity 4y agoSo weird that someone targetted for (political) assasination wouldn't want a public tracker of his vehicles on his own platform. So anti free speech?
- SXX 4y agoTracking of personal billionare jets is absolutely legal and will take exactly 5 minutes of time and $0 for anyone who decide to do it. If Musk don't like it he is free to use a car instead.
- vkou 4y agoElon saying one thing, and doing another is a tale as old as time. Don't listen to a word he says - assume it's false until independently verified.
- jszymborski 4y agoWhen the Elon/Twitter transaction went through, there were a lot of HN comments stating that they thought that this might actually mean a more open, "freer" Twitter. When I mentioned that Elon had already been using his power unilaterally to re-platform personal allies like Babylon Bee and Ye, I got all sorts of pedantry about the difference between suspension and banning, more pedantry about the Ye reactivation happening moments before the deal went through and some justifications about Babylon Bee not having done anything wrong, etc... I will reiterate here again. Musk will squeeze every bit of perceived power he may have out of Twitter by issuing personal favours like the petty, tin-pot tyrant that he is.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- memish 4y agoIf he was personally involved, then yes, that's fucked up. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that he personally did this and it's not in error, which is a leap. It's the same as everyone who blamed Jack personally for bans that were later reversed. Let's see what the explanation is and whether it gets unbanned.
- philosopher1234 4y agoBut elon musk owns the company. What it does is his responsibility. He is not some wayward ship swept up in a massive tide, he is the tide.