8 ms·

Linux/*BSD may still be that awkward friend who sometimes misreads your intentions and causes awkward moments or knocks glasses over, but at least tries to resp

Linux/*BSD may still be that awkward friend who sometimes misreads your intentions and causes awkward moments or knocks glasses over, but at least tries to respect you (snapd excepted). Windows these days doesn't seem to respect you. There's a difference in my mind between struggling to make your computer do something (because nobody made it easy yet) and struggling to make your computer do something (because a marketing team decided to try to stop you). Resolving the first scenario feels like working for myself, the other feels like fighting an adversary. I try to not use products that don't respect me. That's fundamentally what keeps me almost exclusively on FOSS. Better alignment of incentives for what I'm trying to do.

nicbou 4y ago
Windows is the guy that makes you watch your drink at all times, because he clearly doesn't take no as an answer.
- the_gipsy 4y ago
  Are you sure? Why not? C'mon. Yes? Haha ok that definitely is a yes.
  - rolenthedeep 4y ago
    Do you want to upgrade your OS? Why not? C'mon, it's free! Please? Please upgrade your OS? Oh hey! I upgraded your OS while you were sleeping, no need to thank me.
berkes 4y ago
As much as I dislike snapd, I don't see how that is a lack of respect. It's just unfinished not ready for production mostly, i'd say.
- progman32 4y ago
  I see these things as being disrespectful about snapd (happy to be proven wrong): - apt install firefox and other packages actually install via snap on Ubuntu. My intent was to install via apt. It should prompt me instead of silently using a different tool with different implications. For example, my firefox profile was silently copied to another folder with zero notification, causing issues with my tooling. - they're only now adding the ability to pause updates (an experimental feature!), after aggressively pushing snapd for years. Work arounds included telling the OS the Internet connection is metered, which sounds familiar. https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date#heading--hold https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date#heading--... I feel disrespected when a tool imposes its own schedule on me and fights to enforce it. I appreciate that they added the Hold feature, but I feel the way we got it was due to continual, years long community push back. Reasonable defaults are fine. Let me edit them without fighting me. - proprietary server implementation, only canonical gets to run one or modify behavior. Distros can't run their own. I get that this might reduce fragmentation. To me the disrespect comes from not giving me a choice. To me it's fine to aggressively push a tech. What I take issue with is the apparent intent to reduce end user control. If my impression is wrong, I'll recant. At least snapd seems to have slowly improved, my nfs mounts actually work in most snap apps now...
soniman 4y ago
Linux would be best for the unsophisticated users that just want a browser and maybe OpenOffice, but those are the users least likely to try it.
- sli 4y ago
  I put Linux on my mom's laptop when it needed a good refurbish for this exact reason and IT support requests from her dropped to basically zero, even for seemingly platform-agnostic stuff like printing. Did everything she needed, I could update it for her over ssh, and just chugged along perfectly reliably since she isn't a poweruser that's poking at every part of her distro.
joe_the_user 4y ago
I use Linux (Ubuntu Mate) at home and Windows 11 at work (care giving at someone's home, helping him do minimal things). Linux is like a friend, not even awkward at this point. Windows is like a drunk at a bar, who, half an hour ago, was just talking too loudly but now has started groping you. In ten years, I can imagine Windows trying to override literally anything someone does on their machine, including the text they type, if MS can imagine profits. Nothing is off the table, why should it be. Nothing stops this.
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  They bought SwiftKey and now whenever I type a phrase like "I'll do x" the entire word prediction bar is replaced with "add {do x} to Microsoft Todo" It's such a great and helpful tool that does not make me resentful at all
- weberer 4y ago
  >Windows is like a drunk at a bar, who, half an hour ago, was just talking too loudly but now has started groping you. That's the best analogy I've seen of what modern Windows has become.
tomxor 4y ago
I think it's all about "intent" in summary. After long enough it gets tiring battling people who's intent is ultimately maximum wealth extraction, rather than simply producing a good piece of software. The intent behind most FOSS projects is just about the software, and sometimes we disagree on what and how (but that's why we have choices)... and some things are a bit creaky and come from different ages and don't fit perfectly together, but with a bit of fiddling and understanding you can gradually accumulate things that do what you want - and so it becomes more comfortable over time, not less, because they don't try to betray you at every turn.
rurp 4y ago
This resonates with me, as someone who switched to Linux awhile back for similar reasons. Having an overtly adversarial relationship with the company who makes a major tool of mine is not a pleasant experience. In addition to the points you raised, it always feels possible to fix something with Linux. It might an annoying PITA problem, but I can probably figure it out if I care enough to. With Windows (or Mac) when I encounter a problem with the OS, I never know if it's fixable or something the parent company insists on forcing on users.
- pxc 4y ago
  > it always feels possible to fix something with Linux. It might an annoying PITA problem, but I can probably figure it out if I care enough to. With Windows (or Mac) when I encounter a problem with the OS, I never know if it's fixable or something the parent company insists on forcing on users. This is such an important point imo. It characterizes an essential aspect of why using GNU/Linux just feels good to me, and why I feel boxed in on the big two proprietary desktops these days. On Linux, the problems feel like my mess, my unfinished chores. They might be annoying, but they're not an invasion.
FredPret 4y ago
Absolutely spot on. If only there was a way to pay money and then get printers / scanners / Bluetooth / wifi working properly on Linux, I'd definitely be doing that.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > get printers / scanners / Bluetooth / wifi working properly on Linux Use a distro released some time in the last 20 years?
  - ugjka 4y ago
    There are still a lot of wireless chipsets out there that suck ASS. If you want to get good support, just get whatever hardware most kernel developers use
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      I learnt my lesson 20 years ago when WiFi was a thing at first, that if you buy cheap crappy no-name WiFi cards, nothing is going to support them right, not even the manufacturer's drivers.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  At this point printers and wifi work more reliably on Linux, at least in my experience. And wifi troubleshooting at Windows is basically impossible.
  - doodlesdev 4y ago
    Bluetooth is still the one missing though, specially for audio. I'm not going back to Windows though, no matter what.
    - rolenthedeep 4y ago
      Bluetooth on Linux works better than windows. Windows' Bluetooth implementation is the worst on the market, by a lot. Bluetooth really does work flawlessly on Linux. I've even got a few cheap and nasty Chinese Bluetooth adapters that don't work on windows, but work fine under Linux.
eulers_secret 4y ago
Apt-news made me finally leave Ubuntu after over a decade. I went to Debian and Arch depending. Seeing ‘apt update’ shill r/Linux was the last straw after forcing-snap, forcing-Amazon ads, Wayland vs Mir, etc. I should have left years ago. Canonical, are you listening? Stop.
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  I'm surprised Canonical doesn't get more shit than they do. Not sure why no one talks about it
  - hedora 4y ago
    I think it is the low switching cost. People complain about snap and unity (and wayland, systemd, gnome 3) all the time instead; some of those are harder to avoid any particular distribution.
civopsec 4y ago
Precisely. I get frustrated with computer interfaces that are hard to use all the time. But at least then it’s just the program which is stupid; I don’t have to get mad at anyone. But to have to deal with things that are actively working against me due to deliberate design decisions? That’s outright infuriating.
hnlmorg 4y ago
Windows has always been like that though. I remember switching to Linux full time back when XP was first released because I hated the direction Microsoft were going. The complaints people make now aren’t any different from the complaints I was making 20+ years ago.
comte7092 4y ago
Even snapd is mostly just an Ubuntu issue, you can always switch distros (though obviously Ubuntu is the most visible distortion so it’s actions have a lot of weight).
userbinator 4y ago
I try to not use products that don't respect me. That's fundamentally what keeps me almost exclusively on FOSS. Better alignment of incentives for what I'm trying to do. It's worth noting that MS used to be far less hostile towards the user, and FOSS is not necessarily going to align with your incentives either[1]. To see what MS software was like before they became user-hostile, you can go to archive.org and get a download of Windows XP or older, along with some other MS software of the time, and try it in a VM. [1] Notable examples being Ubuntu trying adware, the whole controversy surrounding systemd, and the direction Firefox is heading.
rolenthedeep 4y ago
This beautifully sums up my experience with windows and Linux. Fighting my misbehaving Linux computer feels productive. Fighting windows just makes me angry and tired. Yeah Linux is hard, but at least it isn't hard on purpose.

nicbou 4y ago

Windows is the guy that makes you watch your drink at all times, because he clearly doesn't take no as an answer.

the_gipsy 4y ago
Are you sure? Why not? C'mon. Yes? Haha ok that definitely is a yes.
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  Do you want to upgrade your OS? Why not? C'mon, it's free! Please? Please upgrade your OS? Oh hey! I upgraded your OS while you were sleeping, no need to thank me.

berkes 4y ago

As much as I dislike snapd, I don't see how that is a lack of respect. It's just unfinished not ready for production mostly, i'd say.

progman32 4y ago
I see these things as being disrespectful about snapd (happy to be proven wrong): - apt install firefox and other packages actually install via snap on Ubuntu. My intent was to install via apt. It should prompt me instead of silently using a different tool with different implications. For example, my firefox profile was silently copied to another folder with zero notification, causing issues with my tooling. - they're only now adding the ability to pause updates (an experimental feature!), after aggressively pushing snapd for years. Work arounds included telling the OS the Internet connection is metered, which sounds familiar. https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date#heading--hold https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date#heading--... I feel disrespected when a tool imposes its own schedule on me and fights to enforce it. I appreciate that they added the Hold feature, but I feel the way we got it was due to continual, years long community push back. Reasonable defaults are fine. Let me edit them without fighting me. - proprietary server implementation, only canonical gets to run one or modify behavior. Distros can't run their own. I get that this might reduce fragmentation. To me the disrespect comes from not giving me a choice. To me it's fine to aggressively push a tech. What I take issue with is the apparent intent to reduce end user control. If my impression is wrong, I'll recant. At least snapd seems to have slowly improved, my nfs mounts actually work in most snap apps now...

soniman 4y ago

Linux would be best for the unsophisticated users that just want a browser and maybe OpenOffice, but those are the users least likely to try it.

sli 4y ago
I put Linux on my mom's laptop when it needed a good refurbish for this exact reason and IT support requests from her dropped to basically zero, even for seemingly platform-agnostic stuff like printing. Did everything she needed, I could update it for her over ssh, and just chugged along perfectly reliably since she isn't a poweruser that's poking at every part of her distro.

joe_the_user 4y ago

I use Linux (Ubuntu Mate) at home and Windows 11 at work (care giving at someone's home, helping him do minimal things). Linux is like a friend, not even awkward at this point. Windows is like a drunk at a bar, who, half an hour ago, was just talking too loudly but now has started groping you. In ten years, I can imagine Windows trying to override literally anything someone does on their machine, including the text they type, if MS can imagine profits. Nothing is off the table, why should it be. Nothing stops this.

rolenthedeep 4y ago
They bought SwiftKey and now whenever I type a phrase like "I'll do x" the entire word prediction bar is replaced with "add {do x} to Microsoft Todo" It's such a great and helpful tool that does not make me resentful at all
weberer 4y ago
>Windows is like a drunk at a bar, who, half an hour ago, was just talking too loudly but now has started groping you. That's the best analogy I've seen of what modern Windows has become.

tomxor 4y ago

I think it's all about "intent" in summary. After long enough it gets tiring battling people who's intent is ultimately maximum wealth extraction, rather than simply producing a good piece of software. The intent behind most FOSS projects is just about the software, and sometimes we disagree on what and how (but that's why we have choices)... and some things are a bit creaky and come from different ages and don't fit perfectly together, but with a bit of fiddling and understanding you can gradually accumulate things that do what you want - and so it becomes more comfortable over time, not less, because they don't try to betray you at every turn.

rurp 4y ago

This resonates with me, as someone who switched to Linux awhile back for similar reasons. Having an overtly adversarial relationship with the company who makes a major tool of mine is not a pleasant experience. In addition to the points you raised, it always feels possible to fix something with Linux. It might an annoying PITA problem, but I can probably figure it out if I care enough to. With Windows (or Mac) when I encounter a problem with the OS, I never know if it's fixable or something the parent company insists on forcing on users.

pxc 4y ago
> it always feels possible to fix something with Linux. It might an annoying PITA problem, but I can probably figure it out if I care enough to. With Windows (or Mac) when I encounter a problem with the OS, I never know if it's fixable or something the parent company insists on forcing on users. This is such an important point imo. It characterizes an essential aspect of why using GNU/Linux just feels good to me, and why I feel boxed in on the big two proprietary desktops these days. On Linux, the problems feel like my mess, my unfinished chores. They might be annoying, but they're not an invasion.

FredPret 4y ago

Absolutely spot on. If only there was a way to pay money and then get printers / scanners / Bluetooth / wifi working properly on Linux, I'd definitely be doing that.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
> get printers / scanners / Bluetooth / wifi working properly on Linux Use a distro released some time in the last 20 years?
- ugjka 4y ago
  There are still a lot of wireless chipsets out there that suck ASS. If you want to get good support, just get whatever hardware most kernel developers use
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    I learnt my lesson 20 years ago when WiFi was a thing at first, that if you buy cheap crappy no-name WiFi cards, nothing is going to support them right, not even the manufacturer's drivers.
matkoniecz 4y ago
At this point printers and wifi work more reliably on Linux, at least in my experience. And wifi troubleshooting at Windows is basically impossible.
- doodlesdev 4y ago
  Bluetooth is still the one missing though, specially for audio. I'm not going back to Windows though, no matter what.
  - rolenthedeep 4y ago
    Bluetooth on Linux works better than windows. Windows' Bluetooth implementation is the worst on the market, by a lot. Bluetooth really does work flawlessly on Linux. I've even got a few cheap and nasty Chinese Bluetooth adapters that don't work on windows, but work fine under Linux.

eulers_secret 4y ago

Apt-news made me finally leave Ubuntu after over a decade. I went to Debian and Arch depending. Seeing ‘apt update’ shill r/Linux was the last straw after forcing-snap, forcing-Amazon ads, Wayland vs Mir, etc. I should have left years ago. Canonical, are you listening? Stop.

rolenthedeep 4y ago
I'm surprised Canonical doesn't get more shit than they do. Not sure why no one talks about it
- hedora 4y ago
  I think it is the low switching cost. People complain about snap and unity (and wayland, systemd, gnome 3) all the time instead; some of those are harder to avoid any particular distribution.

civopsec 4y ago

Precisely. I get frustrated with computer interfaces that are hard to use all the time. But at least then it’s just the program which is stupid; I don’t have to get mad at anyone. But to have to deal with things that are actively working against me due to deliberate design decisions? That’s outright infuriating.

hnlmorg 4y ago

Windows has always been like that though. I remember switching to Linux full time back when XP was first released because I hated the direction Microsoft were going. The complaints people make now aren’t any different from the complaints I was making 20+ years ago.

comte7092 4y ago

Even snapd is mostly just an Ubuntu issue, you can always switch distros (though obviously Ubuntu is the most visible distortion so it’s actions have a lot of weight).

userbinator 4y ago

I try to not use products that don't respect me. That's fundamentally what keeps me almost exclusively on FOSS. Better alignment of incentives for what I'm trying to do. It's worth noting that MS used to be far less hostile towards the user, and FOSS is not necessarily going to align with your incentives either[1]. To see what MS software was like before they became user-hostile, you can go to archive.org and get a download of Windows XP or older, along with some other MS software of the time, and try it in a VM. [1] Notable examples being Ubuntu trying adware, the whole controversy surrounding systemd, and the direction Firefox is heading.

rolenthedeep 4y ago

This beautifully sums up my experience with windows and Linux. Fighting my misbehaving Linux computer feels productive. Fighting windows just makes me angry and tired. Yeah Linux is hard, but at least it isn't hard on purpose.