7 ms·

Launching the Kindle Fire was a mistake

128 points by andrewmunn 15y ago

zht 15y ago
not this guy again. this is the former Google intern who completely mischaracterized Android's UI rendering
- natrius 15y ago
  This sort of comment is harmful to healthy discourse. It is okay to be wrong sometimes, and his previous potential wrongness has little bearing on this discussion.
yequalsx 15y ago
I almost hate the Fire. I have a Kindle Touch and I thought the interface between the two devices would at least be consistent. In the Fire to bring up the menu when reading a book you tap the bottom of the screen. In the Touch you tap the top of the screen. In the Touch you can look up the definition of a word the same way you do on the Fire. However, on the Touch when the definition of a word comes up you can look up the definition of a word used in the definition of the word you just looked up the same way the original word's definition was obtained. You can't do that in the Fire. Why don't both devices automatically sync? When I first turn on a device I sync. Sometimes when I open a book I have to sync again to get to the furthest read page. Why do I have to sync after syncing? Why does the browser icon show up on the main page of the Fire every time I use the browser? I keep removing the icon from the main page. Shouldn't I only have to do this once? Turning pages is a great pain in the Fire and the Touch. You tap the screen and a page turns. This is horrible because sometimes while holding the device I accidentally tap the screen without meaning to turn a page. The iPad has the swipe interface for turning a page. Apple got this spot on. Amazon should copy Apple in this regard. The web browser on the Fire is horrible. It's slow and I can't get web base email to work properly on it. This is pathetic. I could go on but the point is made. The Fire is an unpolished device. It's almost entirely pathetic. This is all just my opinion and others will have a different opinion but I would highly recommend getting an iPad instead of a Fire. Don't be lured by the low price of the Fire.
wallflower 15y ago
I have a Kindle Fire. I actually like the fact that it is an imperfect product - lags in switching tabs, occasional lags so long in loading websites that you wonder if your wifi has gone dialup, the dang "Carousel". I do like the reading experience and pocket-ability - it fits into a winter jacket easily - though you need to weigh down your opposite pocket to avoid lopsided-ness. The Kindle Fire is the first credible competitor to the iPad. Android tablets running Honeycomb - it hurts my head - the UI - it is like a Klingon control panel. Definitely not intuitive. The Kindle Fire - it is a compromise - a custom, dumbed-down ("The Carousel") UI on the iceberg of Android 2.x. For me, it is a tangible reminder that products aren't all perfect like the iPad. There is no such thing as immaculate conception - the Kindle Fire will get better over time. Comparing it to the iPad is like comparing NYC to... any other city except London[1]. It's a different metro, not as sophisticated - it's for those who just want a tablet device that is relatively affordable. The iPad has set the bar - it is the first computer for many under the age of six. The Kindle Fire is no such thing - it is, as a review said best, a Kindle with benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
- alexholehouse 15y ago
  For the record, in terms of metros for ease of use I'd have to say Paris > NYC > London (having lived in all three cities).
rokhayakebe 15y ago
I bought one. I love it. I CANNOT wait for a 8, 9 or 10 inch one because I will be the first one to get it (assuming it's still cheaper than the Ipad). I have no idea what people are talking about when they say they are disappointed. Seriously how much hardware + software do you want for $199. Last time I read a book and finished it was a few years ago. I just finished a 500 page book on the fire, and it has certainly helped a lot with note taking, going back to highlights etc... Browsing the internet is just fine, although the video audio seems to be off sync for Youtube videos. Movies through Prime were just ok. Sometimes it hangs, but it's not all that bad. You just turn it off, then on (really, you just press the button back to back. like 1.5 seconds). I think most people were expecting a smaller Ipad. Well, come on.
- matwood 15y ago
  How is it with reading PDFs? I read a lot of books on my iPhone without any problem, but PDFs just don't scale right. I'm starting think about getting some sort of tablet and good PDF handling is high on my requirements.
  - rokhayakebe 15y ago
    The problem with PDFs I have tried is that you have to zoom it for each page. I think a good option would be to have to pdf on something like Scribd and they would convert it to an html5 friendly content, then you just view it on the browser. I haven't tried this yet, though.
  - tks 15y ago
    With the caveat that I don't have a lot of experience with the iPad's pdf support I'd say the Fire's support is solid. I recently read an entire e-book in pdf format on it. The main limitation is that there isn't a lot of screen real estate so if you want to read it on a full page scale you need to tolerate a very small font (this was not a problem for me). A cool upside is that when you get a Fire, Amazon creates an email address that you can send emails with attached pdfs and documents which will then automatically be downloaded onto your Kindle. Overall nothing mind blowing but if you like e-readers I think you'll be satisfied with the pdf support.
chuinard 15y ago
I read the first few sentences of this and stopped when he said it was downright terrible. Having just received one for Christmas myself, I really have no idea where all the Fire hate is coming from. Sure, it's not an iPad, but it is absolutely a gap between my phone and my MacBook that I am now happy to have filled. Laying in bed watching Arrested Development, playing Angry Birds on a slightly larger screen, or browsing the web all work just fine. It also was neat that all the apps I got on the Amazon Appstore already sync'd directly to the device. I'm also really impressed with how Amazon took the physical buttons (menu, back, and home) off the actual device and made them part of the UI by tapping a little arrow at the bottom of the screen. Yes, the power button is misplaced, but overall I am very satisfied with this $199 tablet that I am finding myself using pretty often so far.
- alexholehouse 15y ago
  Completely agree - I've found the battery outperforms the 8 hours advertised (with Wi-Fi off and lowish brightness, i.e. the kind of settings you're likely to have while travelling, which is presumably when battery would be most important). Also the weight is such a non-issue - it's lighter than most hardback books, whereas I found trying to read off the iPad waaay more clunky (from a lying position).
- phaus 15y ago
  I've played around with most companies' flagship tablets, to include the iPad. With the exception of my windows 7 tablet, the kindle fire was the first tablet that I actually purchased. Overall I love it, but there are a couple of things that really hurt the experience. The biggest issue for me would be that the kindle fire often doesn't respond to input very well. I often find myself having to press a button 2-5 times in order for it to register. I know I am hitting the button because the button animation seems to be working correctly. I hope that they finally manage to fix this issue with another update. This alone brings the device from 4.5 stars down to 3.5 in my opinion. The only other issue I have is that magazine/comic books are being sold for the kindle fire as if they are actually readable. This is more of a complaint against magazine and comic book publishers who should have started optimizing their content for digital display years ago. I shouldn't have to manually zoom in every time I turn a page and then pan around. The print magazine industry is rapidly becoming unprofitable, so why aren't these companies busting their asses to create e-reader friendly versions of their products?
WalterBright 15y ago
I have a Fire and like it a lot. I use it every day for reading books in low light conditions. I'd buy it again tomorrow.
miles_matthias 15y ago
I couldn't agree with this more. My grandma recently bought one and I spend all of Christmas getting it set up for her and teaching her. She's gotten really frustrated and would probably return it if it hadn't been free from her company. This part especially is what I agree with: "Yet, the drive to quickly release a product in a hot field is almost irresistible. Amazon believes growing marketshare is more important than the reputation of their tablet. This is wrong. I believe consumer tolerance for poor products is at an all time low, thanks to ten years of amazing Apple products. Unfortunately, the idea that first movers win is widely believed across the tech industry." Version 1.0 should be magical. I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native email client on it.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  > "I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native email client on it." Which is nigh unusable. I set up my email account on it and went to bed with it at 70% charge. I woke up with the Kindle Fire at 20%. It drained 50% in about 8-9 hours doing nothing more than email. Yes, idle email checking uses power, but I have never seen it that bad on any device. The battery is no slouch either based on normal reading/video drain rates. My Fire's battery has been dry for 4 weeks and counting now. I have no felt even the slightest urge to recharge it and use it. Considering this is a low-margin device designed to hook people onto Amazon's profitable content pipeline, this is an utter and abject failure. Others I know who got the Fire at launch have all either returned it, or their Fires have a fate similar to mine - forgotten in a drawer.
  - miles_matthias 15y ago
    Yea I didn't say it was good, but it's there. I had a similarly terrible experience with their mail client.
- esrauch 15y ago
  > She's gotten really frustrated and would probably return it if it hadn't been free from her company. Is this actually a problem with the Fire though, or would she react the same way to an iPad?
brudgers 15y ago
I read the criticisms of the Fire's OS and think, "why wouldn't the next version run Windows 8?" It is not as if Amazon has much shared interest with Google or a bunch of reasons to love Android and certainly Android doesn't give their tablets a marketing advantage.
- junkbit 15y ago
  That would take 25% of the per unit price for a start. Then there's the lack of control.
- fpgeek 15y ago
  Why wouldn't the next version of the Fire run Windows 8? Here's three reasons: 1. Microsoft's not likely to let Amazon put Amazon put Windows 8 on the next Fire for free. 2. Microsoft will be running the app store for Windows 8 tablets, not Amazon (BTW, do we even know what the in-app purchase rules will be for Windows 8? If they're at all Apple-like, that's a dealbreaker by itself). 3. Windows 8 is likely to have more demanding/expensive hardware requirements than Android
- absconditus 15y ago
  Is Amazon going to have all of the developers for the Amazon Appstore switch tool chains and resubmit their applications? Develop some kind of clunky compatibility layer?
- dotBen 15y ago
  Have you played with a Fire? Amazon totally forked Android and ripped out all of the google bits, all of the default UI and made it into their own OS. It's Android in that it will run Android apps but that's it. In all other ways, Amazon's Android is competing with Google's Android, which is one of the reasons Amazon don't describe it as an Android tablet unless they are talking to developers. It's actually a really interesting strategy, although from an Open Source perspective it's always a shame when companies fork successful projects for their own goals.
jrockway 15y ago
Companies need to stop copying Apple, because if they don't, every review will be tainted by why Apple did X better than they did. Apple might not have actually done X better, but they did it first, and people like what they already know. The comment about the unlock gesture is especially relevant; there is no need to stipe something across the screen to unlock a tablet. If people copy that, though, the reviews will inevitably compare it to Apple's implementation, and will like Apple's better. (Be it less lag, better color scheme, better font for "Slide to unlock", etc.) If they do something completely different, like a hardware switch, then everyone will be happy because it's the first time they've ever seen anything like that and the idea will be allowed to stand on its own merits. The Fire is flawed from the start because it uses out of date software. If you are going to advertise something as Android, then people expect it to be good at Android. Look at Archos' Android tablets; dead because they kept it on 1.6 forever. (I will certainly never buy an Archos product again.) The solution is to not advertise it as having Android, even if you use Android behind the scenes. There are many Linux devices that don't claim to be Linux, and as a result, nobody ever cares that GHC 7.4 doesn't run on it; it's just a box that runs software that does stuff rather than being "a Linux box". (Hell, the original Kindle is a good example of this. Do you want an xterm on your Kindle? Nope! So you don't care that it doesn't have X11.) Anyway, I guess I'm saying that the key to hardware design is expectation management. Be different so that you aren't compared to Apple. Underpromise so that you aren't compared to something you aren't.
- dr1z 15y ago
  If you look at Amazon's own page for Kindle Fire, it does not list Android OS as a feature (with the exception of the Appstore but that predates Fire).
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Fair enough. But they obviously used Android, so people (including me) expect the tablet to compete with other Android tablets. That's the reason why I don't have one, even if I would only use the Amazon features. (I do own a Kindle, though, because it doesn't promise anything other than "buy books from Amazon.com and read them on an e-ink screen", and that's exactly what I want.)
SteveJS 15y ago
This is not a mistake. For me, $200 and low expectations make this a great value. Amazon's not building an iPad competitor, and failing to meet that expectation isn't an excuse not to build the Kindle Fire.
balloot 15y ago
My problem with this post is the assumption that the Kindle Fire would have blown away the iPad with a few more months' development time. Lots have companies have tried to beat the iPhone/iPad. Nobody has even come close. This guy's whole worldview centers around the fact that since he worked at Amazon, all their engineers are clearly the best. And if that engineering team releases a bad product it's clearly a reflection on someone other than the engineering team. What is far more likely is that Amazon's engineers weren't going to approach the iPad no matter how hard they tried or how long they worked. It's nothing to be ashamed of - they have lots of great company in this regard.
btipling 15y ago
Some people think "I didn't like it" means nobody should like it. I like my kindle fire, although I think I'd prefer a Ice Cream tablet next year. I like widgets and power and awesomeness. But just because I think I might like something else better doesn't mean I'm going to jump on a soap box.
miles_matthias 15y ago
The newsyc iPhone app does this. It's nice.
EmagineEngine 15y ago
Okay, you've convinced me. It was the lack of privacy that gave me pause. And the well executed Nook.
garrickvanburen 15y ago
I'm starting to think there must be 2 products on the market right now called the 'Amazon Kindle Fire' - this very enjoyable one I picked up and this other one that all these blog posts are complaining about.
- IznastY 15y ago
  Having just received one for Christmas I too find the Kindle Fire quite enjoyable. Yes it could use some polishing, could possibly be the fact that it's running an older version of Android.
iradik 15y ago
I wonder if Amazon will do a trade-in program when the Kindle Fire 2 comes out for unhappy Fire owners. It's just the kind of crazy customer experience turn-around I could see Amazon doing.
ballstothewalls 15y ago
I believe that their has been an update to the Fire that seems to have alleviated most of this guys problems. The kindle that I received for Christmas has been a joy to use :)
foobarbazetc 15y ago
"I tell her it’s less than half the price of an iPad, but the software will be almost as polished because it’s made by Amazon." LOL. Because Amazon are known for quality consumer software, right?
- notatoad 15y ago
  Well, all the kindles before the fire were pretty damn polished.
  - ceejayoz 15y ago
    The first one wasn't. Odd form factor, thick, no PDF support. A great start, but "polished" it wasn't.
    - notatoad 15y ago
      The form factor was a little funky, yes. It was thinner than anything else at the time. And PDF support was an omission that increased the polish, not detracted from it. Reading PDF on a e-ink screen is a horrible experience, adding it was a compromise.
nazgulnarsil 15y ago
tl;dr his mom didn't like the kindle fire and over the holidays complained to him about it.
extension 15y ago
Funny that anybody can think there is a first mover advantage in this market when tablets have been shipping and failing for about 30 years now, the idea itself is over 50 years old, and some directly related patents are over 100 years old! The secret to Apple's success is obviously their zen-like patience and restraint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers
- freehunter 15y ago
  Tablets could hardly be considered consumer appliances before the iPad. They're not even in the same league, and this is coming from someone who owns zero Apple hardware.
  - z92 15y ago
    Don't forgetting that there were touch devices prior to it, but those needed a stylus. Of course you could touch the screen for response, but those were not designed for such use. Jobs success was in understanding that the first thing you needed to do to make tablets popular was to throw out the stylus.
  - extension 15y ago
    I think tablets before the iPad would have taken whatever they could get, but they couldn't make it in any market. Apple had to wait for many planets to align before they could make their move: - It wasn't until the web that any new consumer computing platform was viable whatsoever. - Even then, the new platform had to start as a phone, so people had an excuse to buy it (well, I need a phone anyway...) and so the carriers could subsidize it. - All the technology needed to be there, and cheap: a responsive multitouch sensor, a GPU for smooth interface animation, a backlit color screen, gigs of solid state storage, hardware video codecs, batteries that last for days, durable glass/metal enclosure, and probably all sorts of little things that we don't even notice. My point is that the iPad's success wasn't about being first. It was essentially about being last.
tghw 15y ago
Many of his main points are vacuous at best. "Adding insult to injury, it’s an extremely simple and ugly unlock-gesture, just the sweep of a mono-color bar from right to left." Since when is a function being simple a problem? And he's comparing it to a Windows phone, where the entire interface is based on "mono-color" tiles. The Fire is a $200 tablet, and aside from a misplaced On/Off button (not sure how that got passed QA), the hardware you get for $200 is incredible. The software could use some work, there's no doubt about that. But here's the thing: They can improve the software. I don't love my Fire, but you can hardly say it is "downright terrible", especially when you consider the price tag.
- phillco 15y ago
  > They can improve the software. But not their first impressions. I've heard this argument before (hell, even The Lean Startup advocates shipping a broken, backwards v1.0), but it's usually paired with meekness: grow slowly, so that by the time you reach a wide audience your quality is awesome and nobody's the wiser. Instead, Amazon's pushing the Fire 1.0 with everything they've got. Shame, because Amazon probably could have pulled off the meekness strategy really well, too -- launch the Fire in December 2011 to a small number of hand-picked (Prime?) beta users, iterate, and launch the real thing in 2012.
- kristofferR 15y ago
  My mother or any other normal non-geeky people in my family doesn't care whether the problem lies in software or hardware. They care about the experience. The Kindle Fire experience is terrible right now. That terrible experience is what they'll remember and associate the brand with.
  - tghw 15y ago
    "Terrible" is hyperbole at best. And while they may not care, my point is, Amazon can (and, I hope, will) improve it. All of these complaints about a $200 tablet remind me of Louis CK's bit on airplanes and cellphones, "Everything's amazing, and nobody's happy."
    - 15y ago
Evgeny 15y ago
I was contemplating on buying the Kindle Fire, but now I just have to buy it ... The voices "pro" and "contra" have split into almost precise 50/50 - now I just need to have the device so I can make a decision myself. I don't have any book reader yet at all - I have to start somewhere.
- seattlejet 15y ago
  If you mainly want an e-reader, I recommend one of the other Kindles that has an E Ink display, which is wonderful. The Fire doesn't have an E Ink display.
  - RandallBrown 15y ago
    e-ink is wonderful, until you turn the page or you turn off the lamp that's next to you. Everyone tells me you get used to the e-ink flash, and I hear it's gotten much better, but it still kinda stinks. Most of my reading is done in bed or on my couch, neither of which has great reading light. The LCD is perfect for this. Maybe it's the years I've spent in front of a computer, but staring at a screen in the dark doesn't bother me at all. Maybe I'll regret it someday.
- beatle 15y ago
  get a refurb iPad 1.
skeeterbug 15y ago
My wife loves her kindle. She has purchased a few books, uses it for web browsing and a few games.
acknickulous 15y ago
I personally love the Kindle Fire. I'm an iPad user, but I bought a Fire to check it out. It's surprisingly powerful--and the 7 inch form factor is great for games. But yeah--the interface is fiddly. I think the only reason why I get so much use out of my Fire is because I'm used to dealing with buggy products. I'd never give one to my parents. Maybe 2.0. Oh--and the browser is HORRIBLE. Despite Amazon's crowing about their new tech--it seems like Skyfire repackaged. And super hard to use.
martincmartin 15y ago
Consumers are snapping the Fire up because it’s $200, but they expect a tablet. Not a black brick that plays movies. Some do. But a lot expect an e-reader that also plays movies. That's how Amazon is marketing it: just one of their many kindle devices. My mother-in-law has a Kindle and reads a lot of books, and I keep trying to tell her that it's more similar to an iPad than her Kindle, but I don't think it sinks in because, well, it's a Kindle.
- easp 15y ago
  I'm curious as to how this positioning will play out. On the one hand, its a better Kindle because it can play movies, etc, but its also the most expensive, heaviest Kindle with the shortest battery life and a worse screen for reading.
jsankey 15y ago
The return rate will be high and Amazon will suffer for it. The Fire currently has over 8000 reviews on Amazon with an average rating of 3.9. Over 5500 of those reviews give the device 4 or 5 stars. Something tells me the average Fire customer does not have such high expectations.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- phaus 15y ago
  While they must be included for accuracy, I found that well over half of the 1-star reviews were written by people who knew that they wouldn't like the Kindle Fire, yet ordered one anyways. There were an awful lot of people who complained that it wasn't as nice as the iPad 2 that they explicitly stated they also own. What logical person buys a low-end tablet when they already have what is arguably the best tablet ever made?
  - bane 15y ago
    What logical person buys a low-end tablet when they already have what is arguably the best tablet ever made? Perhaps one that just needs a smaller form factor to toss in their coat pocket when heading out to the coffee shop.
    - phaus 15y ago
      I can see this, but when they are lounging around the house with their iPads do they think that it's a piece of crap because it can't do everything as well as a macbook pro that costs 2.5 times as much? The Kindle Fire comes much closer to delivering the experience of an iPad 2 than the iPad 2 comes to replicating the experience of using a real computer.
  - vijayr 15y ago
    sometimes reviews at amazon are annoying. I was reading reviews for a men's gps watch. somebody gave it 4 stars and mentioned that (s)he would've given 5 stars, if "the product had women's model too". It doesn't make any sense. it is clearly mentioned that the model is for men - why write the review at all? people have weird expectations
DiabloD3 15y ago
The only thing that killed the Fire for me (and sadly I now own one, got it as a gift), is they reneged on their 1 year of Amazon Prime free deal. Now, you only get a month. Screw that, the tablet is next to useless without Prime unless you like buying movies/tv shows that are DRMed up. Also, why the hell does it have stereo speakers that are only on the left side of the device in landscape orientation? What use is stereo in portrait? And on top of that, mine was shipped from Amazon with a defective LCD and now I have to deal with that. Honestly, I am not impressed.
- bethling 15y ago
  When did Amazon ever claim to offer one year? The initial announcement of it was one month of free prime (http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/). If your LCD is defective, contact Amazon and they will take care of it - that's what the warranty is for :)
  - DiabloD3 15y ago
    Yes, I have contacted Amazon. However, the device does not look like it was damaged in shipping, it looks like it is a manufacturing error. Amazon is not gaining any points from this, at any rate.
- jonknee 15y ago
  Amazon certainly never promised a year of Prime.
- DiabloD3 15y ago
  To those saying Amazon initially announced one month: no, this is what they switched it to when it was finally available for purchase, after already having told every tech site that when it launched it would come with a year. Some websites out there that contain historical information still reference it, so Google for it and look around. I feel that it is a bait and switch. Even if the news did not originate from Amazon or Amazon was misquoted, Amazon did nothing to correct these sites and has profited it,
lnanek 15y ago
It's cheap and pretty much does the job from what I hear. Obviously the author's and his family's experience was a bit worse than most people report. But honestely, returning something is a huge pain in the ass. It requires work and backing out of a decision. Very few people ever bother returning things. Just like some percentage of people never mail in rebates. With apps, you can offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, it will increase conversion, and few people will ever take you up on it. It sucks that it means a business doesn't have to please everyone completely, but the business is in it for the money anyway, not pleasing everyone. I think, from a business perspective, it was right to launch and capture the holiday sales. Subsequent versions will get better. I have a first generation Kindle and later versions blow it away. My version has freaking black text on a dark gray background, worse than cheap newspaper.
rheide 15y ago
Would be nice if HN could resolve the (google.com) bit in the list to a Google+ user account.
rayiner 15y ago
One of the arguments I'm seeing here is that people shouldn't have such high expectations because it's a $200 device. You don't really want the reputation of releasing a device that's cheap because it's crappy, rather than cheap because it's limited. From a customer's point of view, for $200 they expect a smaller screen, less storage, less features, less ability to run the latest games. They do not expect less fit and finish. See the car industry for an example. You expect less bells and whistles from a Toyota Corolla than you do from a Lexus, less power and less luxurious materials, etc, but you don't expect that the dash will have large gaps in it, the steering will be unreliable, etc.

128 points by andrewmunn 15y ago

zht 15y ago

not this guy again. this is the former Google intern who completely mischaracterized Android's UI rendering

natrius 15y ago
This sort of comment is harmful to healthy discourse. It is okay to be wrong sometimes, and his previous potential wrongness has little bearing on this discussion.

yequalsx 15y ago

I almost hate the Fire. I have a Kindle Touch and I thought the interface between the two devices would at least be consistent. In the Fire to bring up the menu when reading a book you tap the bottom of the screen. In the Touch you tap the top of the screen. In the Touch you can look up the definition of a word the same way you do on the Fire. However, on the Touch when the definition of a word comes up you can look up the definition of a word used in the definition of the word you just looked up the same way the original word's definition was obtained. You can't do that in the Fire. Why don't both devices automatically sync? When I first turn on a device I sync. Sometimes when I open a book I have to sync again to get to the furthest read page. Why do I have to sync after syncing? Why does the browser icon show up on the main page of the Fire every time I use the browser? I keep removing the icon from the main page. Shouldn't I only have to do this once? Turning pages is a great pain in the Fire and the Touch. You tap the screen and a page turns. This is horrible because sometimes while holding the device I accidentally tap the screen without meaning to turn a page. The iPad has the swipe interface for turning a page. Apple got this spot on. Amazon should copy Apple in this regard. The web browser on the Fire is horrible. It's slow and I can't get web base email to work properly on it. This is pathetic. I could go on but the point is made. The Fire is an unpolished device. It's almost entirely pathetic. This is all just my opinion and others will have a different opinion but I would highly recommend getting an iPad instead of a Fire. Don't be lured by the low price of the Fire.

wallflower 15y ago

I have a Kindle Fire. I actually like the fact that it is an imperfect product - lags in switching tabs, occasional lags so long in loading websites that you wonder if your wifi has gone dialup, the dang "Carousel". I do like the reading experience and pocket-ability - it fits into a winter jacket easily - though you need to weigh down your opposite pocket to avoid lopsided-ness. The Kindle Fire is the first credible competitor to the iPad. Android tablets running Honeycomb - it hurts my head - the UI - it is like a Klingon control panel. Definitely not intuitive. The Kindle Fire - it is a compromise - a custom, dumbed-down ("The Carousel") UI on the iceberg of Android 2.x. For me, it is a tangible reminder that products aren't all perfect like the iPad. There is no such thing as immaculate conception - the Kindle Fire will get better over time. Comparing it to the iPad is like comparing NYC to... any other city except London[1]. It's a different metro, not as sophisticated - it's for those who just want a tablet device that is relatively affordable. The iPad has set the bar - it is the first computer for many under the age of six. The Kindle Fire is no such thing - it is, as a review said best, a Kindle with benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

alexholehouse 15y ago
For the record, in terms of metros for ease of use I'd have to say Paris > NYC > London (having lived in all three cities).

rokhayakebe 15y ago

I bought one. I love it. I CANNOT wait for a 8, 9 or 10 inch one because I will be the first one to get it (assuming it's still cheaper than the Ipad). I have no idea what people are talking about when they say they are disappointed. Seriously how much hardware + software do you want for $199. Last time I read a book and finished it was a few years ago. I just finished a 500 page book on the fire, and it has certainly helped a lot with note taking, going back to highlights etc... Browsing the internet is just fine, although the video audio seems to be off sync for Youtube videos. Movies through Prime were just ok. Sometimes it hangs, but it's not all that bad. You just turn it off, then on (really, you just press the button back to back. like 1.5 seconds). I think most people were expecting a smaller Ipad. Well, come on.

matwood 15y ago
How is it with reading PDFs? I read a lot of books on my iPhone without any problem, but PDFs just don't scale right. I'm starting think about getting some sort of tablet and good PDF handling is high on my requirements.
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  The problem with PDFs I have tried is that you have to zoom it for each page. I think a good option would be to have to pdf on something like Scribd and they would convert it to an html5 friendly content, then you just view it on the browser. I haven't tried this yet, though.
- tks 15y ago
  With the caveat that I don't have a lot of experience with the iPad's pdf support I'd say the Fire's support is solid. I recently read an entire e-book in pdf format on it. The main limitation is that there isn't a lot of screen real estate so if you want to read it on a full page scale you need to tolerate a very small font (this was not a problem for me). A cool upside is that when you get a Fire, Amazon creates an email address that you can send emails with attached pdfs and documents which will then automatically be downloaded onto your Kindle. Overall nothing mind blowing but if you like e-readers I think you'll be satisfied with the pdf support.

chuinard 15y ago

I read the first few sentences of this and stopped when he said it was downright terrible. Having just received one for Christmas myself, I really have no idea where all the Fire hate is coming from. Sure, it's not an iPad, but it is absolutely a gap between my phone and my MacBook that I am now happy to have filled. Laying in bed watching Arrested Development, playing Angry Birds on a slightly larger screen, or browsing the web all work just fine. It also was neat that all the apps I got on the Amazon Appstore already sync'd directly to the device. I'm also really impressed with how Amazon took the physical buttons (menu, back, and home) off the actual device and made them part of the UI by tapping a little arrow at the bottom of the screen. Yes, the power button is misplaced, but overall I am very satisfied with this $199 tablet that I am finding myself using pretty often so far.

alexholehouse 15y ago
Completely agree - I've found the battery outperforms the 8 hours advertised (with Wi-Fi off and lowish brightness, i.e. the kind of settings you're likely to have while travelling, which is presumably when battery would be most important). Also the weight is such a non-issue - it's lighter than most hardback books, whereas I found trying to read off the iPad waaay more clunky (from a lying position).
phaus 15y ago
I've played around with most companies' flagship tablets, to include the iPad. With the exception of my windows 7 tablet, the kindle fire was the first tablet that I actually purchased. Overall I love it, but there are a couple of things that really hurt the experience. The biggest issue for me would be that the kindle fire often doesn't respond to input very well. I often find myself having to press a button 2-5 times in order for it to register. I know I am hitting the button because the button animation seems to be working correctly. I hope that they finally manage to fix this issue with another update. This alone brings the device from 4.5 stars down to 3.5 in my opinion. The only other issue I have is that magazine/comic books are being sold for the kindle fire as if they are actually readable. This is more of a complaint against magazine and comic book publishers who should have started optimizing their content for digital display years ago. I shouldn't have to manually zoom in every time I turn a page and then pan around. The print magazine industry is rapidly becoming unprofitable, so why aren't these companies busting their asses to create e-reader friendly versions of their products?

WalterBright 15y ago

I have a Fire and like it a lot. I use it every day for reading books in low light conditions. I'd buy it again tomorrow.

miles_matthias 15y ago

I couldn't agree with this more. My grandma recently bought one and I spend all of Christmas getting it set up for her and teaching her. She's gotten really frustrated and would probably return it if it hadn't been free from her company. This part especially is what I agree with: "Yet, the drive to quickly release a product in a hot field is almost irresistible. Amazon believes growing marketshare is more important than the reputation of their tablet. This is wrong. I believe consumer tolerance for poor products is at an all time low, thanks to ten years of amazing Apple products. Unfortunately, the idea that first movers win is widely believed across the tech industry." Version 1.0 should be magical. I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native email client on it.

potatolicious 15y ago
> "I do need to correct the author on one point though - I did find a native email client on it." Which is nigh unusable. I set up my email account on it and went to bed with it at 70% charge. I woke up with the Kindle Fire at 20%. It drained 50% in about 8-9 hours doing nothing more than email. Yes, idle email checking uses power, but I have never seen it that bad on any device. The battery is no slouch either based on normal reading/video drain rates. My Fire's battery has been dry for 4 weeks and counting now. I have no felt even the slightest urge to recharge it and use it. Considering this is a low-margin device designed to hook people onto Amazon's profitable content pipeline, this is an utter and abject failure. Others I know who got the Fire at launch have all either returned it, or their Fires have a fate similar to mine - forgotten in a drawer.
- miles_matthias 15y ago
  Yea I didn't say it was good, but it's there. I had a similarly terrible experience with their mail client.
esrauch 15y ago
> She's gotten really frustrated and would probably return it if it hadn't been free from her company. Is this actually a problem with the Fire though, or would she react the same way to an iPad?

brudgers 15y ago

I read the criticisms of the Fire's OS and think, "why wouldn't the next version run Windows 8?" It is not as if Amazon has much shared interest with Google or a bunch of reasons to love Android and certainly Android doesn't give their tablets a marketing advantage.

junkbit 15y ago
That would take 25% of the per unit price for a start. Then there's the lack of control.
fpgeek 15y ago
Why wouldn't the next version of the Fire run Windows 8? Here's three reasons: 1. Microsoft's not likely to let Amazon put Amazon put Windows 8 on the next Fire for free. 2. Microsoft will be running the app store for Windows 8 tablets, not Amazon (BTW, do we even know what the in-app purchase rules will be for Windows 8? If they're at all Apple-like, that's a dealbreaker by itself). 3. Windows 8 is likely to have more demanding/expensive hardware requirements than Android
absconditus 15y ago
Is Amazon going to have all of the developers for the Amazon Appstore switch tool chains and resubmit their applications? Develop some kind of clunky compatibility layer?
dotBen 15y ago
Have you played with a Fire? Amazon totally forked Android and ripped out all of the google bits, all of the default UI and made it into their own OS. It's Android in that it will run Android apps but that's it. In all other ways, Amazon's Android is competing with Google's Android, which is one of the reasons Amazon don't describe it as an Android tablet unless they are talking to developers. It's actually a really interesting strategy, although from an Open Source perspective it's always a shame when companies fork successful projects for their own goals.

jrockway 15y ago

Companies need to stop copying Apple, because if they don't, every review will be tainted by why Apple did X better than they did. Apple might not have actually done X better, but they did it first, and people like what they already know. The comment about the unlock gesture is especially relevant; there is no need to stipe something across the screen to unlock a tablet. If people copy that, though, the reviews will inevitably compare it to Apple's implementation, and will like Apple's better. (Be it less lag, better color scheme, better font for "Slide to unlock", etc.) If they do something completely different, like a hardware switch, then everyone will be happy because it's the first time they've ever seen anything like that and the idea will be allowed to stand on its own merits. The Fire is flawed from the start because it uses out of date software. If you are going to advertise something as Android, then people expect it to be good at Android. Look at Archos' Android tablets; dead because they kept it on 1.6 forever. (I will certainly never buy an Archos product again.) The solution is to not advertise it as having Android, even if you use Android behind the scenes. There are many Linux devices that don't claim to be Linux, and as a result, nobody ever cares that GHC 7.4 doesn't run on it; it's just a box that runs software that does stuff rather than being "a Linux box". (Hell, the original Kindle is a good example of this. Do you want an xterm on your Kindle? Nope! So you don't care that it doesn't have X11.) Anyway, I guess I'm saying that the key to hardware design is expectation management. Be different so that you aren't compared to Apple. Underpromise so that you aren't compared to something you aren't.

dr1z 15y ago
If you look at Amazon's own page for Kindle Fire, it does not list Android OS as a feature (with the exception of the Appstore but that predates Fire).
- jrockway 15y ago
  Fair enough. But they obviously used Android, so people (including me) expect the tablet to compete with other Android tablets. That's the reason why I don't have one, even if I would only use the Amazon features. (I do own a Kindle, though, because it doesn't promise anything other than "buy books from Amazon.com and read them on an e-ink screen", and that's exactly what I want.)

SteveJS 15y ago

This is not a mistake. For me, $200 and low expectations make this a great value. Amazon's not building an iPad competitor, and failing to meet that expectation isn't an excuse not to build the Kindle Fire.

balloot 15y ago

My problem with this post is the assumption that the Kindle Fire would have blown away the iPad with a few more months' development time. Lots have companies have tried to beat the iPhone/iPad. Nobody has even come close. This guy's whole worldview centers around the fact that since he worked at Amazon, all their engineers are clearly the best. And if that engineering team releases a bad product it's clearly a reflection on someone other than the engineering team. What is far more likely is that Amazon's engineers weren't going to approach the iPad no matter how hard they tried or how long they worked. It's nothing to be ashamed of - they have lots of great company in this regard.

btipling 15y ago

Some people think "I didn't like it" means nobody should like it. I like my kindle fire, although I think I'd prefer a Ice Cream tablet next year. I like widgets and power and awesomeness. But just because I think I might like something else better doesn't mean I'm going to jump on a soap box.

miles_matthias 15y ago

The newsyc iPhone app does this. It's nice.

EmagineEngine 15y ago

Okay, you've convinced me. It was the lack of privacy that gave me pause. And the well executed Nook.

garrickvanburen 15y ago

I'm starting to think there must be 2 products on the market right now called the 'Amazon Kindle Fire' - this very enjoyable one I picked up and this other one that all these blog posts are complaining about.

IznastY 15y ago
Having just received one for Christmas I too find the Kindle Fire quite enjoyable. Yes it could use some polishing, could possibly be the fact that it's running an older version of Android.

iradik 15y ago

I wonder if Amazon will do a trade-in program when the Kindle Fire 2 comes out for unhappy Fire owners. It's just the kind of crazy customer experience turn-around I could see Amazon doing.

ballstothewalls 15y ago

I believe that their has been an update to the Fire that seems to have alleviated most of this guys problems. The kindle that I received for Christmas has been a joy to use :)

foobarbazetc 15y ago

"I tell her it’s less than half the price of an iPad, but the software will be almost as polished because it’s made by Amazon." LOL. Because Amazon are known for quality consumer software, right?

notatoad 15y ago
Well, all the kindles before the fire were pretty damn polished.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  The first one wasn't. Odd form factor, thick, no PDF support. A great start, but "polished" it wasn't.
  - notatoad 15y ago
    The form factor was a little funky, yes. It was thinner than anything else at the time. And PDF support was an omission that increased the polish, not detracted from it. Reading PDF on a e-ink screen is a horrible experience, adding it was a compromise.

nazgulnarsil 15y ago

tl;dr his mom didn't like the kindle fire and over the holidays complained to him about it.

extension 15y ago

Funny that anybody can think there is a first mover advantage in this market when tablets have been shipping and failing for about 30 years now, the idea itself is over 50 years old, and some directly related patents are over 100 years old! The secret to Apple's success is obviously their zen-like patience and restraint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_tablet_computers

freehunter 15y ago
Tablets could hardly be considered consumer appliances before the iPad. They're not even in the same league, and this is coming from someone who owns zero Apple hardware.
- z92 15y ago
  Don't forgetting that there were touch devices prior to it, but those needed a stylus. Of course you could touch the screen for response, but those were not designed for such use. Jobs success was in understanding that the first thing you needed to do to make tablets popular was to throw out the stylus.
- extension 15y ago
  I think tablets before the iPad would have taken whatever they could get, but they couldn't make it in any market. Apple had to wait for many planets to align before they could make their move: - It wasn't until the web that any new consumer computing platform was viable whatsoever. - Even then, the new platform had to start as a phone, so people had an excuse to buy it (well, I need a phone anyway...) and so the carriers could subsidize it. - All the technology needed to be there, and cheap: a responsive multitouch sensor, a GPU for smooth interface animation, a backlit color screen, gigs of solid state storage, hardware video codecs, batteries that last for days, durable glass/metal enclosure, and probably all sorts of little things that we don't even notice. My point is that the iPad's success wasn't about being first. It was essentially about being last.

tghw 15y ago

Many of his main points are vacuous at best. "Adding insult to injury, it’s an extremely simple and ugly unlock-gesture, just the sweep of a mono-color bar from right to left." Since when is a function being simple a problem? And he's comparing it to a Windows phone, where the entire interface is based on "mono-color" tiles. The Fire is a $200 tablet, and aside from a misplaced On/Off button (not sure how that got passed QA), the hardware you get for $200 is incredible. The software could use some work, there's no doubt about that. But here's the thing: They can improve the software. I don't love my Fire, but you can hardly say it is "downright terrible", especially when you consider the price tag.

phillco 15y ago
> They can improve the software. But not their first impressions. I've heard this argument before (hell, even The Lean Startup advocates shipping a broken, backwards v1.0), but it's usually paired with meekness: grow slowly, so that by the time you reach a wide audience your quality is awesome and nobody's the wiser. Instead, Amazon's pushing the Fire 1.0 with everything they've got. Shame, because Amazon probably could have pulled off the meekness strategy really well, too -- launch the Fire in December 2011 to a small number of hand-picked (Prime?) beta users, iterate, and launch the real thing in 2012.
kristofferR 15y ago
My mother or any other normal non-geeky people in my family doesn't care whether the problem lies in software or hardware. They care about the experience. The Kindle Fire experience is terrible right now. That terrible experience is what they'll remember and associate the brand with.
- tghw 15y ago
  "Terrible" is hyperbole at best. And while they may not care, my point is, Amazon can (and, I hope, will) improve it. All of these complaints about a $200 tablet remind me of Louis CK's bit on airplanes and cellphones, "Everything's amazing, and nobody's happy."
  - 15y ago

Evgeny 15y ago

I was contemplating on buying the Kindle Fire, but now I just have to buy it ... The voices "pro" and "contra" have split into almost precise 50/50 - now I just need to have the device so I can make a decision myself. I don't have any book reader yet at all - I have to start somewhere.

seattlejet 15y ago
If you mainly want an e-reader, I recommend one of the other Kindles that has an E Ink display, which is wonderful. The Fire doesn't have an E Ink display.
- RandallBrown 15y ago
  e-ink is wonderful, until you turn the page or you turn off the lamp that's next to you. Everyone tells me you get used to the e-ink flash, and I hear it's gotten much better, but it still kinda stinks. Most of my reading is done in bed or on my couch, neither of which has great reading light. The LCD is perfect for this. Maybe it's the years I've spent in front of a computer, but staring at a screen in the dark doesn't bother me at all. Maybe I'll regret it someday.
beatle 15y ago
get a refurb iPad 1.

skeeterbug 15y ago

My wife loves her kindle. She has purchased a few books, uses it for web browsing and a few games.

acknickulous 15y ago

I personally love the Kindle Fire. I'm an iPad user, but I bought a Fire to check it out. It's surprisingly powerful--and the 7 inch form factor is great for games. But yeah--the interface is fiddly. I think the only reason why I get so much use out of my Fire is because I'm used to dealing with buggy products. I'd never give one to my parents. Maybe 2.0. Oh--and the browser is HORRIBLE. Despite Amazon's crowing about their new tech--it seems like Skyfire repackaged. And super hard to use.

martincmartin 15y ago

Consumers are snapping the Fire up because it’s $200, but they expect a tablet. Not a black brick that plays movies. Some do. But a lot expect an e-reader that also plays movies. That's how Amazon is marketing it: just one of their many kindle devices. My mother-in-law has a Kindle and reads a lot of books, and I keep trying to tell her that it's more similar to an iPad than her Kindle, but I don't think it sinks in because, well, it's a Kindle.

easp 15y ago
I'm curious as to how this positioning will play out. On the one hand, its a better Kindle because it can play movies, etc, but its also the most expensive, heaviest Kindle with the shortest battery life and a worse screen for reading.

jsankey 15y ago

The return rate will be high and Amazon will suffer for it. The Fire currently has over 8000 reviews on Amazon with an average rating of 3.9. Over 5500 of those reviews give the device 4 or 5 stars. Something tells me the average Fire customer does not have such high expectations.

deleted 15y ago
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phaus 15y ago
While they must be included for accuracy, I found that well over half of the 1-star reviews were written by people who knew that they wouldn't like the Kindle Fire, yet ordered one anyways. There were an awful lot of people who complained that it wasn't as nice as the iPad 2 that they explicitly stated they also own. What logical person buys a low-end tablet when they already have what is arguably the best tablet ever made?
- bane 15y ago
  What logical person buys a low-end tablet when they already have what is arguably the best tablet ever made? Perhaps one that just needs a smaller form factor to toss in their coat pocket when heading out to the coffee shop.
  - phaus 15y ago
    I can see this, but when they are lounging around the house with their iPads do they think that it's a piece of crap because it can't do everything as well as a macbook pro that costs 2.5 times as much? The Kindle Fire comes much closer to delivering the experience of an iPad 2 than the iPad 2 comes to replicating the experience of using a real computer.
- vijayr 15y ago
  sometimes reviews at amazon are annoying. I was reading reviews for a men's gps watch. somebody gave it 4 stars and mentioned that (s)he would've given 5 stars, if "the product had women's model too". It doesn't make any sense. it is clearly mentioned that the model is for men - why write the review at all? people have weird expectations

DiabloD3 15y ago

The only thing that killed the Fire for me (and sadly I now own one, got it as a gift), is they reneged on their 1 year of Amazon Prime free deal. Now, you only get a month. Screw that, the tablet is next to useless without Prime unless you like buying movies/tv shows that are DRMed up. Also, why the hell does it have stereo speakers that are only on the left side of the device in landscape orientation? What use is stereo in portrait? And on top of that, mine was shipped from Amazon with a defective LCD and now I have to deal with that. Honestly, I am not impressed.

bethling 15y ago
When did Amazon ever claim to offer one year? The initial announcement of it was one month of free prime (http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/09/amazon/). If your LCD is defective, contact Amazon and they will take care of it - that's what the warranty is for :)
- DiabloD3 15y ago
  Yes, I have contacted Amazon. However, the device does not look like it was damaged in shipping, it looks like it is a manufacturing error. Amazon is not gaining any points from this, at any rate.
jonknee 15y ago
Amazon certainly never promised a year of Prime.
DiabloD3 15y ago
To those saying Amazon initially announced one month: no, this is what they switched it to when it was finally available for purchase, after already having told every tech site that when it launched it would come with a year. Some websites out there that contain historical information still reference it, so Google for it and look around. I feel that it is a bait and switch. Even if the news did not originate from Amazon or Amazon was misquoted, Amazon did nothing to correct these sites and has profited it,

lnanek 15y ago

It's cheap and pretty much does the job from what I hear. Obviously the author's and his family's experience was a bit worse than most people report. But honestely, returning something is a huge pain in the ass. It requires work and backing out of a decision. Very few people ever bother returning things. Just like some percentage of people never mail in rebates. With apps, you can offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee, it will increase conversion, and few people will ever take you up on it. It sucks that it means a business doesn't have to please everyone completely, but the business is in it for the money anyway, not pleasing everyone. I think, from a business perspective, it was right to launch and capture the holiday sales. Subsequent versions will get better. I have a first generation Kindle and later versions blow it away. My version has freaking black text on a dark gray background, worse than cheap newspaper.

rheide 15y ago

Would be nice if HN could resolve the (google.com) bit in the list to a Google+ user account.

rayiner 15y ago

One of the arguments I'm seeing here is that people shouldn't have such high expectations because it's a $200 device. You don't really want the reputation of releasing a device that's cheap because it's crappy, rather than cheap because it's limited. From a customer's point of view, for $200 they expect a smaller screen, less storage, less features, less ability to run the latest games. They do not expect less fit and finish. See the car industry for an example. You expect less bells and whistles from a Toyota Corolla than you do from a Lexus, less power and less luxurious materials, etc, but you don't expect that the dash will have large gaps in it, the steering will be unreliable, etc.