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"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a cho

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" and doing a $500k home Reno because you have good architectural taste and style. They probably still own a $70k Volvo (or now Tesla) anyway :-). In these scenarios I think it's because the $2k watch or $70k car is too easily attained by lower classes that they are no longer considered signals by the upper classes. However blowing $500k renovating a perfectly livable home, or $10k on an appliance you could spend as little as $1k on.. is not. Another countersignal that the article points in the direction of is level of professional vs casual attire in the workplace. My friends and I are far enough in our careers that personally I've worn sneakers to work for the last 10 years, no business slacks, and sporadically tuck in my collared shirt. The last round of job searching doing zoom interviews, I wore my hoodie for half the calls. If I had done this while job searching out of college, during my internship, or at my first job.. I would not be where I am today.

331c8c71 4y ago
>$2k Rolex I thought the cheapest Rolex is substantially more expensive. Am I wrong?
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Fair point. My numbers are probably off on everything now. Before the 2020s era inflation you could definitely pick up a mens one used for $2k, like a Datejust model for example. Likewise a $70k car is neither particularly rare or exotic now with how much the average car price has been pushed up by big trucks and EVs.
  - doubled112 4y ago
    It's pretty easy to add a few options and pay $70K or more for a Ford F-150 these days. At least here in Canada. People love their pickup trucks.
    - steveBK123 4y ago
      It's truly crazy to me how quickly pricing has ramped up especially in EVs. Imagine telling someone 10 years ago that people would line up to buy a $60k Hyundai EV, or $80k on a luxury Hyundai sub-brand EV? The Tesla Model 3/Y range can easily run up above $70k with options now, and the bigger Tesla Model S/X is a six-figures vehicle! Likewise, gas powered BMWs seem to have disappeared in the $30-40k range and pretty quickly get into the $50k+ range.
      - coryrc 4y ago
        I figure GP's talking about gas trucks. We're talking working class people spending over a year's gross income on a truck, when in the past they'd be buying a "work truck" with a single bench seat, no A/C, and an AM radio.
        ehnto 4y ago
        I don't want to make assumptions, but it's my understanding that they're usually on finance which means they're paying much more than sticker price. I certainly don't know many middle class people with 70k in savings to throw around, either everyone is doing a lot better than they otherwise expose or there's easy money on the table. I think we'll see price corrections downward for cars over the next 5 years, as interest rates change. I've asked a handful of importers while I try and source a car from Japan, with the Japanese import market being hyper inflated. They've all suggested that during the pandemic, financed purchases were making up the majority of their sales. I imagine that's set to change as interest rates change and loans get harder to acquire.
        doubled112 4y ago
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  New Rolex watches are more expensive (around $6k I think), but the Rolex to happy meal ratio is lower than it has ever been.
helen___keller 4y ago
> wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" […] Isn’t this conflating status signal with lifestyle? The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies. In and of itself, expensive hobby equipment is not a status signal (it can be, of course, if you plaster it all over your personal social media)
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Yes I think my point is that they simply signal differently by for example regaling you about how they spent $5000 on custom designed esoteric tiles from a local artisan for their shower. Personally I don't think things that are 90% purchase/consumption (housing/renovations/appliances) are hobbies in the same way as photography/kitesurfing/gardening/cycling which may be expensive but have some sort of skill/learning/activity attached.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - closeparen 4y ago
    Renovation isn’t the hobby here, they’re not doing it themselves. But a passion for cooking justifies the high end kitchen. An interest in architecture and design justifies bringing good examples of it home.
    - steveBK123 4y ago
      Sure, if you have the money and interest, spend it. But people often conflate "investment" & consumption when its anything related to home renovation. I'd still argue these types of "hobbies" are 90% consumption, and for most of the people I know.. usually financed with loans. No one I know with a $100k kitchen cooks any better than my poor immigrant grandmother did.
blagie 4y ago
Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Exactly. To me, a $500k unnecessary renovation throws more money away than a $70k vs $40k car. At least with the car you are likely getting safety features and extensive sensor suites for driver assist for the money, that have tangible impact on your driving experience. Or Spending 5-10x on a $10k appliance where a $1-2k one would do. These people tend to get the whole set, so it's a good $30-40k worth of kitchen appliances that could easily be replicated for $5k total otherwise. Does a better fridge/freezer really help you cook better? Do even most experienced cooks get noticeable benefit of a $10k range or oven?
  - prpl 4y ago
    One slight different is that spending on your home will generally add value to it. It may not be necessary, and you may not get a dollar-for-dollar out of it, but it’s added value nonetheless. I cook a lot, I personally would like a higher quality stove - I’ve killed one before because I (an)use the broiler a lot (it wasn’t terribly old), but I probably would do an NXR or something. maybe in the $2k. Or a used Wolf/viking from one of the people you mention I’d rather buy a nice oven than a bunch of shit appliances though. People love their air fryers, over the stove microwave, countertop oven, instant pot, etc…
    - steveBK123 4y ago
      I think most people delude themselves that their big renovations added any incremental value to their home. Usually the cost was financed and thus even higher than the sticker price, all-in. Further, the holding periods are measured in a decade +/- often, so the general market moves contribute more to the sales price than whatever you'd done to the kitchen/bath. On the margin, having a move-in ready home that's been renovated well enough recently enough, generically enough, ensures reasonable liquidity of being able to sell the home for a reasonable price reasonably quickly. For many this means replacing some dated appliances, repainting, and strategic spending on a few items that may be out of style or more aged, like bathroom vanity or replacing a linoleum top. Extravagant, expensive, specific renovations may actually detract because the general markets taste are not your taste and so you've either reduced the number of likely buyers, or half the universe of buyers are going to actually deduct value of your renovation because they may want to undo whatever you've done. Spending $2k replacing a worn appliance or buying a $200 air fryer are two orders of magnitude off from the expenditure levels I am referring to.
nradov 4y ago
The Toyota Land Cruiser has been a popular car in certain upper-class circles. At $87k it's fairly expensive, but it doesn't look expensive.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Precisely! Not to mention a fully specced out Tesla Model 3 is $80k and Model Y is now.. $90k, and the tax credits are basically gone! I remember getting a pretty well configured Model 3 for $50k after tax incentives in their first year of production. For ~$70k you used to be able to get a Model S, which now STARTS at $105k. Easily configurable into the $130-160k range now.. insane.
  - asoneth 4y ago
    Agreed that they are expensive cars that have gotten even more expensive over the last decade. But comparing absolute numbers for a car you bought five years ago may be misleading because the majority of the increase is likely due to inflation. Back of the envelope math: If you were in CA and got $7.5k federal and $2.5k state credits that means the Model 3 you bought in 2017 was ~$60k or ~$73k in today's dollars. If it's now $80k then that's a real price increase of ~$7k in today's dollars. That's certainly an increase, but making an expensive car slightly more expensive doesn't seem particularly insane to me.
    - steveBK123 4y ago
      Inflation is a huge factor here for sure. Most people probably can't get their heads around a well equipped Toyota Corolla approaching $30k or Honda Accord hitting $40k. Mentally to me these are BMW 3-series prices, but that's not been true for some time! If you are in the market for a 3-row / 7 seater, you can spend $55k on a Toyota Highlander SUV or $40k on a Toyota Siena minivan. It's genuinely pretty challenging to spend under $30k on a new car now outside fairly basic 2-4 door smaller sedan/hatchback vehicles in their base trim without options.
      - 4y ago
cracrecry 4y ago
>the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. There was a time, not that long time ago in which good clocks were expensive and expending 2ks on a good clock was similar to expending 2k on a laptop today, a functional, reasonable decision. My uncle earned a much more expensive Rolex than 2k in a Golf tournament and wearing it nobody believed it was genuine, even a watchmaker could not differentiate it from sight, there are very good Chinese knockoffs for cheap anywhere. Also, after quartz oscillator clocks, a 2k clock does not work better than a 100 one. People spend their money on whatever they see fit. One of the great things of having money is having freedom in your life but few people knowing that you have it. In places like Spain or France people do not admire you for having money, on the contrary they envy you, and you better not show off. Also gold diggers and interested parties like banks start to harass you all the time. And criminals what to take it from you by force.
- trasz2 4y ago
  Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but now it's pretty much exclusively about marketing, since you can get the same engineering orders of magnitude cheaper. It's like DeBeers' diamonds.
  - fnbr 4y ago
    What’s an example of a watch that’s mechanically identical to a Rolex?
    - AussieWog93 4y ago
      It's pretty common now to find "Super Fakes" of designer brands, that are very difficult to tell apart from the real thing. They'll be expensive but not as expensive as the real thing.
    - 4y ago
AussieWog93 4y ago
>inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" Haha, don't forget the classic combo of the $10k Caesarstone countertop plus half a dozen blunt knives.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  LOL yes, thank you. People might argue somehow the appliance makes them cook better but the countertops and cabinetry is a pretty tough sell. Every time I look at my 30 year old kitchen & bathrooms, and tally up what it would cost to update them, I can't help but think I'd rather just retire a bit earlier. Yes things need to be replaced as they break, and ultimately some renovation will be needed.. but I know people gutting 10-15 year old kitchens & baths purely for aesthetics every time they move. Full employment for tradesmen.
- shostack 4y ago
  Is Caesarstone nice?
  - m0llusk 4y ago
    Yes, but more important is that it is trendy and differentiated from similar options such as granite.
pclmulqdq 4y ago
I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals. For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth spend $120k on a car. For watches, the same thing happens: if you're wearing a watch less than $50k, it had better be under $500. Otherwise you probably don't care much about watches. Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling.. For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness. So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste. Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options. On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though). If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.
onetimeusename 4y ago
Rolex hatred seems like it is about expressing contempt towards the previous establishment. Presidents used to wear them (still do actually) but it's not uncommon to see very rich politicians wearing very cheap watches probably deliberately. Same goes for suit wearing. I think pg wrote an article on his blog about how suit wearing was for people who thought like conformists and obviously being a conformist was not for hackers. I am paraphrasing because I can't remember now exactly what he said. But I just think it was contempt of previously established people working in finance or law. Now, the largest companies in the US skew towards tech companies. I don't know why that happens that newly successful people seem to dislike the symbols of the previous elite rather than just mind their own business. Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. This is in spite of the claim that the hoodie culture is not concerned what you dress up in, in fact they are. Maybe you could call that counter counter-signalling. It's just like taking a large salary at a tech company instead of having a $1 salary and getting enormous options and stock payouts. Somehow taking a large salary is worse despite that being normal for CEOs previously.
- pfisherman 4y ago
  > Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. Not true. If you are a menswear enthusiast who is genuinely into fine tailoring, then people will respect it and even show interest. Generally, having hobbies and interests adds to one’s character. Now wearing a suit because you think it will make people take you more seriously will get you some side eye.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    Which is a shame. Someone wearing business casual is so much more pleasant to the eye than typical sloppy hacker wear. Especially once you start getting older and flabbier.
    - coffeebeqn 4y ago
      Doesn’t business causal mean like slacks and a lame tucked in pastel polo shirt? I think both a suit and hacker wear are more interesting
coffeebeqn 4y ago
The food part is big. It’s wild how in the US especially there are about three classes of grocery stores and each cater almost exclusively to a certain social class. You don’t see many laborers or fast food workers grabbing a meal from the local co-op or Whole Foods and the local Aldi or Walmart rarely sees an executive unless they’re infamously stingy
- steveBK123 4y ago
  You see this A LOT in food spend in US especially in rich urban areas. I have friends who would kind of scoff at a Rolex but proudly describe the latest $500-for-2 dinner they went to last week. Similarly I had a friend who only upgraded his iPhone with hand-me-downs from his teenage daughter, so he'd be like 3-4 years behind the curve. Meanwhile he owned like 4 homes and dined out similarly to my other friend.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > You see this A LOT in food spend in US especially in rich urban areas. This won't resonate withh you unless you are or were ever a cook, I fear we had so much more left to capture and were forced to leave on the table that was taken away because of COVID, but this transition in the US food culture was paid with lots of hard work and countless sacrifices that most will never get beyond watching an episode of The Bear. Two big blows came in hard after Bourdain's death (so many concepts and projects were abandoned that never came back) and then followed with COVID destroying the Industry in such a way that I'm doubting will ever get much further than this in my Lifetime any more: food culture in the US still has so much left to catch up with Asia and Europe but we were making massive progress towards that, but I'm staring to accept this will probably be the high-water mark that the next generation of tech workers and cooks alike will need to build off of. And no, ghost kitchens and burning VC money from Softbank on DD is not a solution. So far, outside of small boutique restaurants and kitchens, all I've seen is a race to the bottom profit seeking with almost no motivation other than to capture what marketshare remains from corps who benefited from PPP and ZIRP at whatever cost it takes and cutting corners until they got bought out by a large Restaurant group. This may seem like hyperbole but ~60% of all restaurants shutdown forever [0] after covid in what was already I high-failure sector with incredibly costly CAPEX/OPEX business models and low profit margins even during the best of times. My last encounter with a delivery driver from a large vendor (think Shamrock or Sysco type corp) brought it all home: they had essentially succumb to the same exploitative delivery and monitoring systems that an Amazon delivery driver has, which was a stark contrast to getting deliveries from local farmers for produce/protein ha were the highlight of the menu and accompanied with items from small artisans and purveyors for cheeses, deserts breads etc... We've lost something very vital coming out of COVID, and I'm not sure what can be done to not undo the progress that was made since the culture-shift has swung so hard to this Amazonification of this Industry.
tbrownaw 4y ago
> * The last round of job searching doing zoom interviews, I wore my hoodie for half the calls. If I had done this while job searching out of college, during my internship, or at my first job.. I would not be where I am today.* That's not just status, it's got change over time mixed in.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  It's partially status in that, I'm advanced enough in my career that I don't really care to work anywhere that would ding me in a zoom interview over my outfit. Earlier in my career I could not have afforded to be so picky. One of the starkest power dynamics in dress code I've observed is in non-tech firms that have large tech orgs to support the revenue generating roles. While there were official dress codes that tech largely abided, our internal customers who generated revenue often showed up in tee shirts or wore ball caps in the office ...
  - mrexroad 4y ago
    I’ve heard someone say a few months back that a zoom setup is the new business suit/attire. After spending the pandemic working from an unfinished/unheated garage near a loud expressway, I definitely felt there were situations where I was “dinged” for it at a FAANG company.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > I don't really care to work anywhere that would ding me in a zoom interview over my outfit I've often found that people who say (and believe) that they don't ding people who dress poorly, do ding people who dress poorly.
TaylorAlexander 4y ago
When I worked at Google I always had the distinct feeling that my hard work was paying for some manager’s $500k home renovation. I’m way more interested in working hard to help people who really need it, and I’m glad I’m not working at a place like that anymore.
- boringg 4y ago
  Where did you end up that is helping people who really need it?
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    I’m doing an open source solar powered farming robot nonprofit thing! [1] It’s an amazing feeling finishing a huge PCB design project for work and then immediately pushing the changes to GitHub. I’ve got a new brushless motor controller in the works that costs under $40 per board fully assembled for high current dual motor control, and anyone can order them (ideally wait till design is slightly more mature). [2] [1] https://community.twistedfields.com/t/march-2022-update-simulation-brakes-funding-and-navigation-improvements/202 https://community.twistedfields.com/t/march-2022-update-simu... [2] https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller
    - boringg 4y ago
      Cool problem and I can imagine it would be fun to solve - wish you the best of luck!
      - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
        Thank you. It’s very fun indeed!
DyslexicAtheist 4y ago
> re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. always has been moon meme. unless you're neveaux rich or stupid or both it is in your absolute interest not to show what you have. driving a Prius used to be that signal but today it has shifted. My direct boss was a Schenker heir (the freight forwarding company) and the only way he showed off is by living in a rental house (albeit manged by his management company so he essentially paid rent to himself), drove a Nissan, didn't spend unless you took a closer look (art purchases for his 4th wife) didn't brag with fancy dinners in Michelin star places (but certainly bragged to his wife about putting her on the map with her silly paintings as a wannabe artist - lol "Sex rules everything around me C.R.E.A.M get the money"). Only lower ranks criminals and new-rich idiots show what they have. Everyone else has learned the lesson: if you show it (the plebs and the IRS), they'll come for you. Also all the people who're truly rich do NOT play by the same rules as the rest of you. YOU decide where, and how much tax you pay, if you have the cash to pay lawyers and accountants to insulate you from the Plebs. The US is the biggest tax[1] haven in the world today forget the Hollywood propaganda about Cayman or Panama - only idiot cartels and Victor Bout use these jurisdictions but not the white collar crime lords ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands
- Alex3917 4y ago
  > driving a Prius used to be that signal but today it has shifted The new 5th generation that just came out looks amazing, so it wouldn't surprise me if Priuses eventually become trendy again.
- thiht 4y ago
  > neveaux rich nouveau riche, or nouveaux riches Sorry if this comes off as pedantic, but as a French, I couldn't resist :D
  - DyslexicAtheist 4y ago
    pas de soucis, absolutely fair point :D
whatshisface 4y ago
Let's take a step back from the signalling perspective and recognize that hobbies (expensive or not) are a lot more fun than watches, which provide almost nothing but status. The same goes for remodeling, which is an extended form of decoration and also a hobby for some people.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  Unless watches are a hobby. I find mechanical watches to be fascinating. This is obsolete technology, and yet, innovation continues. This is precision engineering, but at least for the high end, mostly done by hand. A lovely anachronism, which is a fitting word for a timepiece. It is like real life steampunk. I fully understand the appeal beyond status signalling. How can geeks not be at least a little interested in watchmaking? I know some people don't care and for them it is just status signaling. But it the same as for supercars: just because it is status doesn't mean there isn't something behind it.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Watchmaking and watch buying are different things.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tablespoon 4y ago
> In these scenarios I think it's because the $2k watch or $70k car is too easily attained by lower classes that they are no longer considered signals by the upper classes. Or it's about signaling that you're "in the know" with the in-group. I read some list from (I believe) the 1800s that listed the different vocabulary used by aristocratic vs. middle class English people. It wasn't anything fancy (e.g. graveyard = aristocrat, cemetery = middle class). But as soon as that list was published and the middle class strivers knew to imitate those parts of the dialect, I'm sure the aristocrats quickly deprecated those signals.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  if you're thinking U vs non-U it was mid-XX, and a bit of a U joke[0] that non-U peeps took way too seriously. I wonder: has anyone made a list of all the different ways we Sneetches have besides our bellies, to distinguish in- and out-groups? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English [0] when Jilly Cooper shows up in the References of a Wikipedia page it's all a bit of a lark
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" and doing a $500k home Reno because you have good architectural taste and style. Or maybe they just like to cook and enjoy having good hardware? Not everything is for signaling purposes. It's really cynical to start viewing everyone's personal expenditures as some sort of socially manipulative tactic. This is especially true when it comes to people's hobbies, where many of us are just trying to enjoy ourselves and appreciate having good hardware around.
plandis 4y ago
> and doing a $500k home Reno because you have good architectural taste and style This is basically the cost to add a second floor to your crappy home you bought a several years back because that’s all you could afford to buy in Seattle at the time. Probably even worse in some other cities.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Renovations that increase the square footage are a rare exception that genuinely add serious value. They are rare often due to the zoning rules and permitting requirements in most areas. I’m speaking of interior renovations of basically aesthetic changes that are generally negative value add.
jdhzzz 4y ago
This makes me think of Adam Carolla's Rich Man-Poor Man. E.g. "Made love next to a fountain." "Doesn't drive himself to work." Many examples on Twitter and Reddit.
shaklee3 4y ago
Viking and sub zero aren't even good appliances. I'm not sure why they're so popular other the price
pyuser583 4y ago
There is currently an insane market for high end wrist watches. Not the 2k Rolexes, I mean the 200k Phillip Patels. There’s even a hot market for historical wristwatches. 2 million for a watch that would have been $100,000 10 years ago is not unheard of.
geebee 4y ago
Interesting observation. I agree with what you've written, but I might even go one step farther, the wealthy like extremely expensive things that don't require much money. Yeah, I'm being a little glib there. But what they love is golf, tennis, violin lessons for kids. Yes, they own expensive golf clubs (and memberships) and tennis rackets and violins. But what they love is that they can slum it with a very inexpensive tennis racket or golf club or violin, whereas the expensive gear is useless in the hands of someone who hasn't had a lifetime of lessons that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars. Even if you have the money, you can't buy the technique, and people who play these sports/instruments can recognize instantly if you know what you're doing (even in movies, tennis, golf, and violin, faked technique is immediately recognizable). It helps a lot of your parents had money and trained you up in these things when you were a child.
nerf0 4y ago
I had learned a saying recently "cars for the poor, watches for the rich". The idea is that cars have higher utilities so even though cars are higher price in general, watchers show higher status signal. As it turns out, this was an old Chinese saying a couple decades ago, where "cars" really meant bicycles.

331c8c71 4y ago

>$2k Rolex I thought the cheapest Rolex is substantially more expensive. Am I wrong?

steveBK123 4y ago
Fair point. My numbers are probably off on everything now. Before the 2020s era inflation you could definitely pick up a mens one used for $2k, like a Datejust model for example. Likewise a $70k car is neither particularly rare or exotic now with how much the average car price has been pushed up by big trucks and EVs.
- doubled112 4y ago
  It's pretty easy to add a few options and pay $70K or more for a Ford F-150 these days. At least here in Canada. People love their pickup trucks.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    It's truly crazy to me how quickly pricing has ramped up especially in EVs. Imagine telling someone 10 years ago that people would line up to buy a $60k Hyundai EV, or $80k on a luxury Hyundai sub-brand EV? The Tesla Model 3/Y range can easily run up above $70k with options now, and the bigger Tesla Model S/X is a six-figures vehicle! Likewise, gas powered BMWs seem to have disappeared in the $30-40k range and pretty quickly get into the $50k+ range.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      I figure GP's talking about gas trucks. We're talking working class people spending over a year's gross income on a truck, when in the past they'd be buying a "work truck" with a single bench seat, no A/C, and an AM radio.
      - ehnto 4y ago
        I don't want to make assumptions, but it's my understanding that they're usually on finance which means they're paying much more than sticker price. I certainly don't know many middle class people with 70k in savings to throw around, either everyone is doing a lot better than they otherwise expose or there's easy money on the table. I think we'll see price corrections downward for cars over the next 5 years, as interest rates change. I've asked a handful of importers while I try and source a car from Japan, with the Japanese import market being hyper inflated. They've all suggested that during the pandemic, financed purchases were making up the majority of their sales. I imagine that's set to change as interest rates change and loans get harder to acquire.
        doubled112 4y ago
pclmulqdq 4y ago
New Rolex watches are more expensive (around $6k I think), but the Rolex to happy meal ratio is lower than it has ever been.

helen___keller 4y ago

> wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" […] Isn’t this conflating status signal with lifestyle? The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies. In and of itself, expensive hobby equipment is not a status signal (it can be, of course, if you plaster it all over your personal social media)

steveBK123 4y ago
Yes I think my point is that they simply signal differently by for example regaling you about how they spent $5000 on custom designed esoteric tiles from a local artisan for their shower. Personally I don't think things that are 90% purchase/consumption (housing/renovations/appliances) are hobbies in the same way as photography/kitesurfing/gardening/cycling which may be expensive but have some sort of skill/learning/activity attached.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- closeparen 4y ago
  Renovation isn’t the hobby here, they’re not doing it themselves. But a passion for cooking justifies the high end kitchen. An interest in architecture and design justifies bringing good examples of it home.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Sure, if you have the money and interest, spend it. But people often conflate "investment" & consumption when its anything related to home renovation. I'd still argue these types of "hobbies" are 90% consumption, and for most of the people I know.. usually financed with loans. No one I know with a $100k kitchen cooks any better than my poor immigrant grandmother did.

blagie 4y ago

Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.

steveBK123 4y ago
Exactly. To me, a $500k unnecessary renovation throws more money away than a $70k vs $40k car. At least with the car you are likely getting safety features and extensive sensor suites for driver assist for the money, that have tangible impact on your driving experience. Or Spending 5-10x on a $10k appliance where a $1-2k one would do. These people tend to get the whole set, so it's a good $30-40k worth of kitchen appliances that could easily be replicated for $5k total otherwise. Does a better fridge/freezer really help you cook better? Do even most experienced cooks get noticeable benefit of a $10k range or oven?
- prpl 4y ago
  One slight different is that spending on your home will generally add value to it. It may not be necessary, and you may not get a dollar-for-dollar out of it, but it’s added value nonetheless. I cook a lot, I personally would like a higher quality stove - I’ve killed one before because I (an)use the broiler a lot (it wasn’t terribly old), but I probably would do an NXR or something. maybe in the $2k. Or a used Wolf/viking from one of the people you mention I’d rather buy a nice oven than a bunch of shit appliances though. People love their air fryers, over the stove microwave, countertop oven, instant pot, etc…
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    I think most people delude themselves that their big renovations added any incremental value to their home. Usually the cost was financed and thus even higher than the sticker price, all-in. Further, the holding periods are measured in a decade +/- often, so the general market moves contribute more to the sales price than whatever you'd done to the kitchen/bath. On the margin, having a move-in ready home that's been renovated well enough recently enough, generically enough, ensures reasonable liquidity of being able to sell the home for a reasonable price reasonably quickly. For many this means replacing some dated appliances, repainting, and strategic spending on a few items that may be out of style or more aged, like bathroom vanity or replacing a linoleum top. Extravagant, expensive, specific renovations may actually detract because the general markets taste are not your taste and so you've either reduced the number of likely buyers, or half the universe of buyers are going to actually deduct value of your renovation because they may want to undo whatever you've done. Spending $2k replacing a worn appliance or buying a $200 air fryer are two orders of magnitude off from the expenditure levels I am referring to.

nradov 4y ago

The Toyota Land Cruiser has been a popular car in certain upper-class circles. At $87k it's fairly expensive, but it doesn't look expensive.

steveBK123 4y ago
Precisely! Not to mention a fully specced out Tesla Model 3 is $80k and Model Y is now.. $90k, and the tax credits are basically gone! I remember getting a pretty well configured Model 3 for $50k after tax incentives in their first year of production. For ~$70k you used to be able to get a Model S, which now STARTS at $105k. Easily configurable into the $130-160k range now.. insane.
- asoneth 4y ago
  Agreed that they are expensive cars that have gotten even more expensive over the last decade. But comparing absolute numbers for a car you bought five years ago may be misleading because the majority of the increase is likely due to inflation. Back of the envelope math: If you were in CA and got $7.5k federal and $2.5k state credits that means the Model 3 you bought in 2017 was ~$60k or ~$73k in today's dollars. If it's now $80k then that's a real price increase of ~$7k in today's dollars. That's certainly an increase, but making an expensive car slightly more expensive doesn't seem particularly insane to me.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Inflation is a huge factor here for sure. Most people probably can't get their heads around a well equipped Toyota Corolla approaching $30k or Honda Accord hitting $40k. Mentally to me these are BMW 3-series prices, but that's not been true for some time! If you are in the market for a 3-row / 7 seater, you can spend $55k on a Toyota Highlander SUV or $40k on a Toyota Siena minivan. It's genuinely pretty challenging to spend under $30k on a new car now outside fairly basic 2-4 door smaller sedan/hatchback vehicles in their base trim without options.
    - 4y ago

cracrecry 4y ago

>the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. There was a time, not that long time ago in which good clocks were expensive and expending 2ks on a good clock was similar to expending 2k on a laptop today, a functional, reasonable decision. My uncle earned a much more expensive Rolex than 2k in a Golf tournament and wearing it nobody believed it was genuine, even a watchmaker could not differentiate it from sight, there are very good Chinese knockoffs for cheap anywhere. Also, after quartz oscillator clocks, a 2k clock does not work better than a 100 one. People spend their money on whatever they see fit. One of the great things of having money is having freedom in your life but few people knowing that you have it. In places like Spain or France people do not admire you for having money, on the contrary they envy you, and you better not show off. Also gold diggers and interested parties like banks start to harass you all the time. And criminals what to take it from you by force.

trasz2 4y ago
Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but now it's pretty much exclusively about marketing, since you can get the same engineering orders of magnitude cheaper. It's like DeBeers' diamonds.
- fnbr 4y ago
  What’s an example of a watch that’s mechanically identical to a Rolex?
  - AussieWog93 4y ago
    It's pretty common now to find "Super Fakes" of designer brands, that are very difficult to tell apart from the real thing. They'll be expensive but not as expensive as the real thing.
  - 4y ago

AussieWog93 4y ago

>inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" Haha, don't forget the classic combo of the $10k Caesarstone countertop plus half a dozen blunt knives.

steveBK123 4y ago
LOL yes, thank you. People might argue somehow the appliance makes them cook better but the countertops and cabinetry is a pretty tough sell. Every time I look at my 30 year old kitchen & bathrooms, and tally up what it would cost to update them, I can't help but think I'd rather just retire a bit earlier. Yes things need to be replaced as they break, and ultimately some renovation will be needed.. but I know people gutting 10-15 year old kitchens & baths purely for aesthetics every time they move. Full employment for tradesmen.
shostack 4y ago
Is Caesarstone nice?
- m0llusk 4y ago
  Yes, but more important is that it is trendy and differentiated from similar options such as granite.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

I think there's a bit of an idea now that you should be expressing yourself with your money, not expressing society's ideas. Around cars and watches, this creates a little bit of a "dead zone" for prestigious professionals. For example, if you aren't showing up in a $200k Maserati, your car had better be under $50k (maybe $70k with inflation). Only posers who aren't really into cars but want to show off their wealth spend $120k on a car. For watches, the same thing happens: if you're wearing a watch less than $50k, it had better be under $500. Otherwise you probably don't care much about watches. Clothing seems to be the same at many companies: you had better wear tailored suits and shirts or be less dressy than "business casual."

steveBK123 4y ago
Yes this is very well put, you really hit the nail on the head here on the sort of reverse bell curve of signaling.. For the very wealthy.. If you show enough interest in something to make signaling purchases, it's expected to be "up to snuff" .. this can mean very very high expense or high esotericness. So that might mean a $200k sports car, or it might mean some uncommon though inexpensive limited production vintage vehicle even though it may be of reasonable price, the time & effort you took to acquire & maintain it is a signal of taste. Otherwise you'd be better off signaling complete disinterest with a very vanilla middle of the road options. On menswear I think to your example, you could say you'd be better off not wearing a suit than in wearing a $200 Men's Wearhouse suit. To that end, these days, the type of people you tend to see in suits are either security / front desk staff or very senior corporate executives. Those in the middle have enough labor negotiating power to not be required to wear a suit, but probably not the desire/wealth to spend $2k on a properly tailored suit.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Very senior/wealthy people can get away with whatever they want. It's why Zuckerberg can look like a total slob at Facebook (notice he still wore a suit while testifying to Congress though). If a senior executive wore a $200 suit to work, nobody would say a word.

onetimeusename 4y ago

Rolex hatred seems like it is about expressing contempt towards the previous establishment. Presidents used to wear them (still do actually) but it's not uncommon to see very rich politicians wearing very cheap watches probably deliberately. Same goes for suit wearing. I think pg wrote an article on his blog about how suit wearing was for people who thought like conformists and obviously being a conformist was not for hackers. I am paraphrasing because I can't remember now exactly what he said. But I just think it was contempt of previously established people working in finance or law. Now, the largest companies in the US skew towards tech companies. I don't know why that happens that newly successful people seem to dislike the symbols of the previous elite rather than just mind their own business. Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. This is in spite of the claim that the hoodie culture is not concerned what you dress up in, in fact they are. Maybe you could call that counter counter-signalling. It's just like taking a large salary at a tech company instead of having a $1 salary and getting enormous options and stock payouts. Somehow taking a large salary is worse despite that being normal for CEOs previously.

pfisherman 4y ago
> Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. Not true. If you are a menswear enthusiast who is genuinely into fine tailoring, then people will respect it and even show interest. Generally, having hobbies and interests adds to one’s character. Now wearing a suit because you think it will make people take you more seriously will get you some side eye.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Which is a shame. Someone wearing business casual is so much more pleasant to the eye than typical sloppy hacker wear. Especially once you start getting older and flabbier.
  - coffeebeqn 4y ago
    Doesn’t business causal mean like slacks and a lame tucked in pastel polo shirt? I think both a suit and hacker wear are more interesting

coffeebeqn 4y ago

The food part is big. It’s wild how in the US especially there are about three classes of grocery stores and each cater almost exclusively to a certain social class. You don’t see many laborers or fast food workers grabbing a meal from the local co-op or Whole Foods and the local Aldi or Walmart rarely sees an executive unless they’re infamously stingy

steveBK123 4y ago
You see this A LOT in food spend in US especially in rich urban areas. I have friends who would kind of scoff at a Rolex but proudly describe the latest $500-for-2 dinner they went to last week. Similarly I had a friend who only upgraded his iPhone with hand-me-downs from his teenage daughter, so he'd be like 3-4 years behind the curve. Meanwhile he owned like 4 homes and dined out similarly to my other friend.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > You see this A LOT in food spend in US especially in rich urban areas. This won't resonate withh you unless you are or were ever a cook, I fear we had so much more left to capture and were forced to leave on the table that was taken away because of COVID, but this transition in the US food culture was paid with lots of hard work and countless sacrifices that most will never get beyond watching an episode of The Bear. Two big blows came in hard after Bourdain's death (so many concepts and projects were abandoned that never came back) and then followed with COVID destroying the Industry in such a way that I'm doubting will ever get much further than this in my Lifetime any more: food culture in the US still has so much left to catch up with Asia and Europe but we were making massive progress towards that, but I'm staring to accept this will probably be the high-water mark that the next generation of tech workers and cooks alike will need to build off of. And no, ghost kitchens and burning VC money from Softbank on DD is not a solution. So far, outside of small boutique restaurants and kitchens, all I've seen is a race to the bottom profit seeking with almost no motivation other than to capture what marketshare remains from corps who benefited from PPP and ZIRP at whatever cost it takes and cutting corners until they got bought out by a large Restaurant group. This may seem like hyperbole but ~60% of all restaurants shutdown forever [0] after covid in what was already I high-failure sector with incredibly costly CAPEX/OPEX business models and low profit margins even during the best of times. My last encounter with a delivery driver from a large vendor (think Shamrock or Sysco type corp) brought it all home: they had essentially succumb to the same exploitative delivery and monitoring systems that an Amazon delivery driver has, which was a stark contrast to getting deliveries from local farmers for produce/protein ha were the highlight of the menu and accompanied with items from small artisans and purveyors for cheeses, deserts breads etc... We've lost something very vital coming out of COVID, and I'm not sure what can be done to not undo the progress that was made since the culture-shift has swung so hard to this Amazonification of this Industry.

tbrownaw 4y ago

> * The last round of job searching doing zoom interviews, I wore my hoodie for half the calls. If I had done this while job searching out of college, during my internship, or at my first job.. I would not be where I am today.* That's not just status, it's got change over time mixed in.

steveBK123 4y ago
It's partially status in that, I'm advanced enough in my career that I don't really care to work anywhere that would ding me in a zoom interview over my outfit. Earlier in my career I could not have afforded to be so picky. One of the starkest power dynamics in dress code I've observed is in non-tech firms that have large tech orgs to support the revenue generating roles. While there were official dress codes that tech largely abided, our internal customers who generated revenue often showed up in tee shirts or wore ball caps in the office ...
- mrexroad 4y ago
  I’ve heard someone say a few months back that a zoom setup is the new business suit/attire. After spending the pandemic working from an unfinished/unheated garage near a loud expressway, I definitely felt there were situations where I was “dinged” for it at a FAANG company.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > I don't really care to work anywhere that would ding me in a zoom interview over my outfit I've often found that people who say (and believe) that they don't ding people who dress poorly, do ding people who dress poorly.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

When I worked at Google I always had the distinct feeling that my hard work was paying for some manager’s $500k home renovation. I’m way more interested in working hard to help people who really need it, and I’m glad I’m not working at a place like that anymore.

boringg 4y ago
Where did you end up that is helping people who really need it?
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I’m doing an open source solar powered farming robot nonprofit thing! [1] It’s an amazing feeling finishing a huge PCB design project for work and then immediately pushing the changes to GitHub. I’ve got a new brushless motor controller in the works that costs under $40 per board fully assembled for high current dual motor control, and anyone can order them (ideally wait till design is slightly more mature). [2] [1] https://community.twistedfields.com/t/march-2022-update-simulation-brakes-funding-and-navigation-improvements/202 https://community.twistedfields.com/t/march-2022-update-simu... [2] https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller https://github.com/Twisted-Fields/rp2040-motor-controller
  - boringg 4y ago
    Cool problem and I can imagine it would be fun to solve - wish you the best of luck!
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      Thank you. It’s very fun indeed!

DyslexicAtheist 4y ago

> re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. always has been moon meme. unless you're neveaux rich or stupid or both it is in your absolute interest not to show what you have. driving a Prius used to be that signal but today it has shifted. My direct boss was a Schenker heir (the freight forwarding company) and the only way he showed off is by living in a rental house (albeit manged by his management company so he essentially paid rent to himself), drove a Nissan, didn't spend unless you took a closer look (art purchases for his 4th wife) didn't brag with fancy dinners in Michelin star places (but certainly bragged to his wife about putting her on the map with her silly paintings as a wannabe artist - lol "Sex rules everything around me C.R.E.A.M get the money"). Only lower ranks criminals and new-rich idiots show what they have. Everyone else has learned the lesson: if you show it (the plebs and the IRS), they'll come for you. Also all the people who're truly rich do NOT play by the same rules as the rest of you. YOU decide where, and how much tax you pay, if you have the cash to pay lawyers and accountants to insulate you from the Plebs. The US is the biggest tax[1] haven in the world today forget the Hollywood propaganda about Cayman or Panama - only idiot cartels and Victor Bout use these jurisdictions but not the white collar crime lords ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands

Alex3917 4y ago
> driving a Prius used to be that signal but today it has shifted The new 5th generation that just came out looks amazing, so it wouldn't surprise me if Priuses eventually become trendy again.
thiht 4y ago
> neveaux rich nouveau riche, or nouveaux riches Sorry if this comes off as pedantic, but as a French, I couldn't resist :D
- DyslexicAtheist 4y ago
  pas de soucis, absolutely fair point :D

whatshisface 4y ago

Let's take a step back from the signalling perspective and recognize that hobbies (expensive or not) are a lot more fun than watches, which provide almost nothing but status. The same goes for remodeling, which is an extended form of decoration and also a hobby for some people.

GuB-42 4y ago
Unless watches are a hobby. I find mechanical watches to be fascinating. This is obsolete technology, and yet, innovation continues. This is precision engineering, but at least for the high end, mostly done by hand. A lovely anachronism, which is a fitting word for a timepiece. It is like real life steampunk. I fully understand the appeal beyond status signalling. How can geeks not be at least a little interested in watchmaking? I know some people don't care and for them it is just status signaling. But it the same as for supercars: just because it is status doesn't mean there isn't something behind it.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Watchmaking and watch buying are different things.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tablespoon 4y ago

> In these scenarios I think it's because the $2k watch or $70k car is too easily attained by lower classes that they are no longer considered signals by the upper classes. Or it's about signaling that you're "in the know" with the in-group. I read some list from (I believe) the 1800s that listed the different vocabulary used by aristocratic vs. middle class English people. It wasn't anything fancy (e.g. graveyard = aristocrat, cemetery = middle class). But as soon as that list was published and the middle class strivers knew to imitate those parts of the dialect, I'm sure the aristocrats quickly deprecated those signals.

082349872349872 4y ago
if you're thinking U vs non-U it was mid-XX, and a bit of a U joke[0] that non-U peeps took way too seriously. I wonder: has anyone made a list of all the different ways we Sneetches have besides our bellies, to distinguish in- and out-groups? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English [0] when Jilly Cooper shows up in the References of a Wikipedia page it's all a bit of a lark

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" and doing a $500k home Reno because you have good architectural taste and style. Or maybe they just like to cook and enjoy having good hardware? Not everything is for signaling purposes. It's really cynical to start viewing everyone's personal expenditures as some sort of socially manipulative tactic. This is especially true when it comes to people's hobbies, where many of us are just trying to enjoy ourselves and appreciate having good hardware around.

plandis 4y ago

> and doing a $500k home Reno because you have good architectural taste and style This is basically the cost to add a second floor to your crappy home you bought a several years back because that’s all you could afford to buy in Seattle at the time. Probably even worse in some other cities.

steveBK123 4y ago
Renovations that increase the square footage are a rare exception that genuinely add serious value. They are rare often due to the zoning rules and permitting requirements in most areas. I’m speaking of interior renovations of basically aesthetic changes that are generally negative value add.

jdhzzz 4y ago

This makes me think of Adam Carolla's Rich Man-Poor Man. E.g. "Made love next to a fountain." "Doesn't drive himself to work." Many examples on Twitter and Reddit.

shaklee3 4y ago

Viking and sub zero aren't even good appliances. I'm not sure why they're so popular other the price

pyuser583 4y ago

There is currently an insane market for high end wrist watches. Not the 2k Rolexes, I mean the 200k Phillip Patels. There’s even a hot market for historical wristwatches. 2 million for a watch that would have been $100,000 10 years ago is not unheard of.

geebee 4y ago

Interesting observation. I agree with what you've written, but I might even go one step farther, the wealthy like extremely expensive things that don't require much money. Yeah, I'm being a little glib there. But what they love is golf, tennis, violin lessons for kids. Yes, they own expensive golf clubs (and memberships) and tennis rackets and violins. But what they love is that they can slum it with a very inexpensive tennis racket or golf club or violin, whereas the expensive gear is useless in the hands of someone who hasn't had a lifetime of lessons that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars. Even if you have the money, you can't buy the technique, and people who play these sports/instruments can recognize instantly if you know what you're doing (even in movies, tennis, golf, and violin, faked technique is immediately recognizable). It helps a lot of your parents had money and trained you up in these things when you were a child.

nerf0 4y ago

I had learned a saying recently "cars for the poor, watches for the rich". The idea is that cars have higher utilities so even though cars are higher price in general, watchers show higher status signal. As it turns out, this was an old Chinese saying a couple decades ago, where "cars" really meant bicycles.