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This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

Quarrelsome 4y ago
> Now that they are banning cash You're talking as if introducing a nationwide speed limit is equivalent to banning cars. The regulation of a given operation is not akin to outright banning it and to assert that is hyperbole.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  Remember about 10 years ago when Cyprus started confiscating money held in bank accounts to settle debts and the people holding cash kept their money because it was physically in their possession and harder to confiscate? Remember earlier this year when people in Lebanon had to hold bank managers at gun point to try and withdraw money from their own accounts as the economy collapsed? The "CaSH hAZ nO PuRpOSe eXCePt fOR cRImE" people in this comment section have massive blind spots. I'm not surprised politicians are taking advantage of it.
mr90210 4y ago
defaulter4once 4y ago
It seems like a technocrat's dream come true! :D
Teandw 4y ago
Let's be honest for a second. There are very few instances where a person would ever 'need' to pay for something over €10k in physical cash?
- ccn0p 4y ago
  uh huh. and "Member states will have the flexibility to impose a lower maximum limit if they wish." Don't worry, the water around us that's heating up is for our own good and not at all to cook us.
- jjav 4y ago
  10K isn't that much money today, relatively easy to do. But much more importantly, inflation means 10K is less and less every year.
- SergeAx 4y ago
  There are also very few instances where a person would 'need' to freely express their beliefs or opinions, so what?
- lzaaz 4y ago
  A vehicle, a house...
  - senda 4y ago
    Sure if you don't want to pay tax
    - manscrober 4y ago
      you don't pay tax on a used vehicle
      - estebank 4y ago
        That depends on the country.
    - lzaaz 4y ago
      That's right, I don't. Good thing about cars and houses is that you can pay some amount officially and then pay more money under the table.
pelorat 4y ago
Define freedom.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  F(A) is a set of all actions an individual A is allowed to perform. If F(A') is a proper subset of F(A), we say that A' has less freedom than A.
CraigJPerry 4y ago
You don’t need CBDC, just the existing system today. Here in the UK something like 3% of money is available as paper cash. The rest is just a row in a database. Assets are zero sum - if i sell you my car, i no longer have that asset. Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. Which kinda frazzles people’s minds when they hear it. I know it certainly did mine when i first learned. https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm
- franciscop 4y ago
  Assets are luckily not zero-sum, that'd be horrifying. If I write some software, nothing has "disappeared". If you copy me a movie, you still have the movie. If I make a painting of build a table, a new asset has been created.
  - CraigJPerry 4y ago
    You’re talking about intangible assets. For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. When you’ve sold your licence to use the software, the software is effectively gone. It’s not always as simple as that. E.g. my brand is an intangible asset. >> If I make a painting That’s just a regular asset, once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one.
    - franciscop 4y ago
      > For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. I can assure you I didn't have to issue manual licenses or make manual copies for the millions of downloads that my open source software had this year. When someone downloaded it, no one found it missing from their project. > once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one Hence is not zero-sum, I can keep making them and the amount of assets keep increasing (non-zero sum). Zero-sum means that "whatever is gained by one side is lost by the other." By creating a new painting nothing is lost.
isodev 4y ago
I think you are jumping the gun on freedom here. There are very few remaining instances in the region where people still pay large sums in cash. Transaction costs are so low (and mostly nonexistent) that cash remains in use either in very specialised circumstances or as part of “grey economy” activities.
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  WHO CARES if it "only has a few instances". I will never understand where people will say that having our right LITERALLY REMOVED somehow isn't eroding our freedom. It simply is, you are objectively less free now.
  - isodev 4y ago
    The uppercase tells me you have strong feelings about this and maybe I’m missing something obvious. Would you explain why my freedom will be diminished by this? I can still pay and buy whatever I want. It just happens faster and more secure.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > I can still pay and buy whatever I want. That's a big claim. Can you put a guarantee on it? Seems like when your only option is to use a tightly regulated system that has opinions on how much you can spend, every time you do you are granted permission. Some day they may say no. What is your recourse when they do?
    - CapricornNoble 4y ago
      >>> I can still pay and buy whatever I want. Are you sure about that? https://www.zerohedge.com/political/gun-shops-and-customers-claim-credit-card-firms-restrict-purchases https://www.zerohedge.com/political/gun-shops-and-customers-...
    - stavros 4y ago
      Maybe you do, but not all countries function as well as yours. I'm Greek, and I remember a few years ago when we could only withdraw 50 euros a day from ATMs. You're on the happy path, and wondering why anyone would complain when the path is so happy. The problem is what happens when that breaks down, and when that happens you definitely want to be able to use cash.
expazl 4y ago
Where I live people in my generation have been primarily cashless at least the last quarter of a century, and yet we still significantly outrank the US in the freedom indexes, which isn't exactly a high bar these days, but still serves to underline that the typical American centrist argument that using primarily paper cash somehow improves freedom is wrong.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I'd be interested to see what freedoms you think you have that don't exist in the US. This is such a popular thing to say that I imagine it can be easily described.
- bool3max 4y ago
  "freedom indexes" - get a hold of yourself
- foxhill 4y ago
  evidence suggests the optimal amount law breaking is non-zero. that’s going to be very difficult against a regime that can track the movements of all money.
- trafficante 4y ago
  The major “freedom indices” are polluted neoliberal ideological wankery that shouldn’t be used to settle a bar argument let alone decide that it’s totally fine to do away with large cash transactions. Even limiting things to strictly “financial freedom” - while more germane to the cashless question and also happen to stick the US above all of Europe save Switzerland - are highly questionable due to the inclusion of weird subjective metrics like “labor regulations = less freedom”
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zsz 4y ago
Fortunately this will also make it more difficult for North Korea to employ compulsory labor of NK civilians in the EU, which is one of the principal contributing factors to the regime's continued ability to act as a source of instability in the SCS region. There is a 45 minute documentary by Deutsche Welle (DW) on YT that informs on the issue. Anyway, as the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, this one at least won't be one to benefit primarily the children. At least one hopes.
- lionkor 4y ago
  Not sure how thats an excuse to make these kinds of changes in europe - it seems like an attempt to being emotion into a topic that shouldnt be emotionally charged
heap_perms 4y ago
Could not agree more. I'm completely flabbergasted by the amount of people on HN that seem so blind to this observation.
- bool3max 4y ago
  HN is no different than any other place on the internet. People on here are still just as gullible and manipulatable as any other person you encounter online.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  It's more of an opinion than an observation. Please don't construe this as an endorsement of the proposal at issue here.

Quarrelsome 4y ago

> Now that they are banning cash You're talking as if introducing a nationwide speed limit is equivalent to banning cars. The regulation of a given operation is not akin to outright banning it and to assert that is hyperbole.

ashwagary 4y ago
Remember about 10 years ago when Cyprus started confiscating money held in bank accounts to settle debts and the people holding cash kept their money because it was physically in their possession and harder to confiscate? Remember earlier this year when people in Lebanon had to hold bank managers at gun point to try and withdraw money from their own accounts as the economy collapsed? The "CaSH hAZ nO PuRpOSe eXCePt fOR cRImE" people in this comment section have massive blind spots. I'm not surprised politicians are taking advantage of it.

mr90210 4y ago

defaulter4once 4y ago

It seems like a technocrat's dream come true! :D

Teandw 4y ago

Let's be honest for a second. There are very few instances where a person would ever 'need' to pay for something over €10k in physical cash?

ccn0p 4y ago
uh huh. and "Member states will have the flexibility to impose a lower maximum limit if they wish." Don't worry, the water around us that's heating up is for our own good and not at all to cook us.
jjav 4y ago
10K isn't that much money today, relatively easy to do. But much more importantly, inflation means 10K is less and less every year.
SergeAx 4y ago
There are also very few instances where a person would 'need' to freely express their beliefs or opinions, so what?
lzaaz 4y ago
A vehicle, a house...
- senda 4y ago
  Sure if you don't want to pay tax
  - manscrober 4y ago
    you don't pay tax on a used vehicle
    - estebank 4y ago
      That depends on the country.
  - lzaaz 4y ago
    That's right, I don't. Good thing about cars and houses is that you can pay some amount officially and then pay more money under the table.

pelorat 4y ago

Define freedom.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
F(A) is a set of all actions an individual A is allowed to perform. If F(A') is a proper subset of F(A), we say that A' has less freedom than A.

CraigJPerry 4y ago

You don’t need CBDC, just the existing system today. Here in the UK something like 3% of money is available as paper cash. The rest is just a row in a database. Assets are zero sum - if i sell you my car, i no longer have that asset. Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. Which kinda frazzles people’s minds when they hear it. I know it certainly did mine when i first learned. https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm

franciscop 4y ago
Assets are luckily not zero-sum, that'd be horrifying. If I write some software, nothing has "disappeared". If you copy me a movie, you still have the movie. If I make a painting of build a table, a new asset has been created.
- CraigJPerry 4y ago
  You’re talking about intangible assets. For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. When you’ve sold your licence to use the software, the software is effectively gone. It’s not always as simple as that. E.g. my brand is an intangible asset. >> If I make a painting That’s just a regular asset, once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one.
  - franciscop 4y ago
    > For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. I can assure you I didn't have to issue manual licenses or make manual copies for the millions of downloads that my open source software had this year. When someone downloaded it, no one found it missing from their project. > once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one Hence is not zero-sum, I can keep making them and the amount of assets keep increasing (non-zero sum). Zero-sum means that "whatever is gained by one side is lost by the other." By creating a new painting nothing is lost.

isodev 4y ago

I think you are jumping the gun on freedom here. There are very few remaining instances in the region where people still pay large sums in cash. Transaction costs are so low (and mostly nonexistent) that cash remains in use either in very specialised circumstances or as part of “grey economy” activities.

SQueeeeeL 4y ago
WHO CARES if it "only has a few instances". I will never understand where people will say that having our right LITERALLY REMOVED somehow isn't eroding our freedom. It simply is, you are objectively less free now.
- isodev 4y ago
  The uppercase tells me you have strong feelings about this and maybe I’m missing something obvious. Would you explain why my freedom will be diminished by this? I can still pay and buy whatever I want. It just happens faster and more secure.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > I can still pay and buy whatever I want. That's a big claim. Can you put a guarantee on it? Seems like when your only option is to use a tightly regulated system that has opinions on how much you can spend, every time you do you are granted permission. Some day they may say no. What is your recourse when they do?
  - CapricornNoble 4y ago
    >>> I can still pay and buy whatever I want. Are you sure about that? https://www.zerohedge.com/political/gun-shops-and-customers-claim-credit-card-firms-restrict-purchases https://www.zerohedge.com/political/gun-shops-and-customers-...
  - stavros 4y ago
    Maybe you do, but not all countries function as well as yours. I'm Greek, and I remember a few years ago when we could only withdraw 50 euros a day from ATMs. You're on the happy path, and wondering why anyone would complain when the path is so happy. The problem is what happens when that breaks down, and when that happens you definitely want to be able to use cash.

expazl 4y ago

Where I live people in my generation have been primarily cashless at least the last quarter of a century, and yet we still significantly outrank the US in the freedom indexes, which isn't exactly a high bar these days, but still serves to underline that the typical American centrist argument that using primarily paper cash somehow improves freedom is wrong.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I'd be interested to see what freedoms you think you have that don't exist in the US. This is such a popular thing to say that I imagine it can be easily described.
bool3max 4y ago
"freedom indexes" - get a hold of yourself
foxhill 4y ago
evidence suggests the optimal amount law breaking is non-zero. that’s going to be very difficult against a regime that can track the movements of all money.
trafficante 4y ago
The major “freedom indices” are polluted neoliberal ideological wankery that shouldn’t be used to settle a bar argument let alone decide that it’s totally fine to do away with large cash transactions. Even limiting things to strictly “financial freedom” - while more germane to the cashless question and also happen to stick the US above all of Europe save Switzerland - are highly questionable due to the inclusion of weird subjective metrics like “labor regulations = less freedom”

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zsz 4y ago

Fortunately this will also make it more difficult for North Korea to employ compulsory labor of NK civilians in the EU, which is one of the principal contributing factors to the regime's continued ability to act as a source of instability in the SCS region. There is a 45 minute documentary by Deutsche Welle (DW) on YT that informs on the issue. Anyway, as the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, this one at least won't be one to benefit primarily the children. At least one hopes.

lionkor 4y ago
Not sure how thats an excuse to make these kinds of changes in europe - it seems like an attempt to being emotion into a topic that shouldnt be emotionally charged

heap_perms 4y ago

Could not agree more. I'm completely flabbergasted by the amount of people on HN that seem so blind to this observation.

bool3max 4y ago
HN is no different than any other place on the internet. People on here are still just as gullible and manipulatable as any other person you encounter online.
anigbrowl 4y ago
It's more of an opinion than an observation. Please don't construe this as an endorsement of the proposal at issue here.