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Effectivealtruism.org purchased a £15M estate for its headquarters in 2021
- monero-xmr 4y agoConsidering the orgy parties they had in the Bahamas penthouse, it's like Eyes Wide Shut fantasies come to life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaIdHUx7FQg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaIdHUx7FQg
- bamboozled 4y agoI think you’re referring to SBF and FTX people, who aren’t the same group ?
- datalopers 4y agoFTX’s Future Fund donated $13.9M to the Center for Effective Altruism. This was apparently most (all?) of their 2022 donations and over 50% of their total donations ever received. So, yeah, FTX paid for this mansion. [1] https://donations.vipulnaik.com/donee.php?donee=Centre+for+Effective+Altruism https://donations.vipulnaik.com/donee.php?donee=Centre+for+E...
- eddsh1994 4y agoJust to be clear, this is because most people within EA circles don't donate to EA infrastructure. SBF was a director of CEA for a few months prior to opening Alameda and likely was lobbied by someone to donate to infrastructure after it received so little.
- jefftk 4y ago> FTX paid for this mansion. "I was the person who owned the early development of the project idea, and fundraised for it. (The funding comes from a grant specifically for this project, and is not FTX-related.) ..." https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/why-did-cea-buy-wytham-abbey#u3yJfbm2pes8TFpYX https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/... Also, if you believe your link, the first FTX donation to CEA was in 2022, and this was purchased in 2021. But eyeballing the numbers at the link I don't think it's complete.
- Animats 4y agoIf they want to have orgies, fine. That's consensual. Fraud, no.
- quickthrower2 4y agoSort of. It could be evidence in favour of fraud, showing FTX / Alameda are literally and figuratively not at arm's length.
- kgwgk 4y agoNot even at penis's length, maybe.
- coding123 4y agoThat's not fine. It demonstrates a shit ton of backwards priorities of a group called "ea"
- bowsamic 4y agoHaving orgies is not fine
- HDThoreaun 4y agowhat's wrong with orgies?
- bowsamic 4y agoCommunal sex is immoral Abstractly hedonistic pleasure is of the devil
- fwipsy 4y agoPlease don't conflate effective altruism with SBF/FTX. Although SBF was a major donor to EA organizations, they were not party to his fraud and EAs do not generally approve of doing unethical things "for the greater good."(Citation: Point #5 here: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/open-thread-250 https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/open-thread-250)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- raverbashing 4y agoIt's hard to believe people taking multi-million $donations have no association with FTX. The box is still to be opened on that side, but I don't doubt we might find something soon
- jasonhansel 4y ago> they were not party to his fraud That remains to be seen. The investigation is ongoing, and for my part I suspect that more people in EA will be implicated.
- boeingUH60 4y agoAlameda got seed money (>$100 million) from two rich EA proponents: Skype co-founder Jann Tallinn and Luke Ding...at a steep interest rate of 43%. https://www.semafor.com/article/12/07/2022/charity-money-launched-sam-bankman-frieds-empire https://www.semafor.com/article/12/07/2022/charity-money-lau...
- ralph84 4y agoWhen the most famous advocate of your philosophy is the perpetrator of one of the biggest frauds in history, the conflation is unavoidable. EA will have to rebrand.
- unmole 4y ago[flagged]
- rsaz 4y agodid they ever say why? a quick glance through the twitter thread doesnt reveal anything
- maxbond 4y agohttps://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1600460052762009600?s=20&t=BV4aR4tYUAL--Wg6pkFjSQ https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1600460052762009600?... This is the closest thing in that thread, but it doesn't appear to be an official justification. In the replies of that tweet, someone suggests this as a better-faith representation of a justification. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/why-did-cea-buy-wytham-abbey?commentId=u3yJfbm2pes8TFpYX https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/...
- Aachen 4y ago> why? a quick glance through the twitter thread doesnt reveal anything One would almost think a twitter rant is not a great starting point for a thoughtful discussion :o I had to scroll this far, one comment above the grayed-out comments, to find the first person asking for the other side of the story instead of either (top comment) providing more info or (every other comment) taking out the pitchforks and condemning the whole concept of science-based altruism.
- jojobas 4y ago“Huh?” Collins said. “I don’t know. What would you suggest?” “Small mansion,” the man said promptly. “They usually start with that.” “They do?” “Oh, yes. Later, they move to a warm climate and build a palace.” Something for nothing, R. Sheckley
- defrost 4y agoBut hey, immortality is free.
- bamboozled 4y agoOk I know I’m the outlier here but I’m some ways I really don’t feel outraged about this and I almost understand it? The foundation still owns the property, and if money was still going to the right places is it the end of the world? I wonder where people would actually suggest they’d have their head quarters ? I know individuals who spend 2/10ths of they on their personal house so for a foundation it doesn’t see too outrageous. the tweet is scant on details, maybe a foundations member donated the money for that specific property ? Seems like Twitter is always looking for some thing / someone to lynch?
- quickthrower2 4y agoI am in two minds about it. It costs less than top exec yearly compensation, and probably less than a lot of London office floors (presumably ?). That said, there are cheaper ways to fire up the imagination of these luminaries: some decent grade tents in the woods, campfires etc. Sort of a poor mans burning man. I think the connection to nature and simplicity, and having slugs crawl on you at night, would create that creative bubble they are looking for. Optics are important too, and even if this estate is genuinely good for how the money is spent, there is no way the average charity donator will see this. Also I reckon anyone well connected enough to be an EA doesn't need accommodation or money or a job to survive.
- tptacek 4y agoTop execs where? The top exec at EA makes $18MM/yr? That is a lot of money, more than the overwhelming majority of "top execs" make outside of the very largest companies in the world.
- zone411 4y agoYou're comparing a one-time cost (or more accurately an asset purchase with recurring maintenance and tax costs) to yearly costs. Apples and oranges.
- bink 4y agoIt was the original comment that compared yearly exec salaries to an asset purchase.
- zone411 4y agoOK? So both comments make a poor comparison.
- tptacek 4y agoI'm not making any comparison. I'm saying that the comment suggesting "top execs" generally make $18MM/yr is wildly off. But this is some of the magical thinking that helps people justify making extravagant purchases in the name of "altruism".
- troydavis 4y agoBefore commenting, I recommend reading this thread as well: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/why-did-cea-buy-wytham-abbey https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/... Particularly the top reply: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/why-did-cea-buy-wytham-abbey?commentId=u3yJfbm2pes8TFpYX https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/... Of course, not everyone will agree with their decision, but it wasn’t done haphazardly. Here’s an excerpt: > We had various calculations about costings, which made it look somewhere between “moderately money-saving” and “mildly money-spending” vs renting venues for events that would happen anyway, depending on various assumptions e.g. about usage that we couldn’t get great data on before running the experiment. The main case for the project was not a cost-saving one, but that if it was a success it could generate many more valuable workshops than would otherwise exist. Note that this is a much less expensive experiment than it may look on face value, since we retain the underlying asset of the building.
- fasthands9 4y agoWhat are the workshops though? Admittedly if this was an org with a different mission it seems like something people would critique as inefficient overhead. But because its EA its assumed to be efficient? I still prefer the EA mindset to most other mindsets on giving but dont have a lot of faith that this org has produced much value. I think a lot of wealthy people (like Bill Gates) have already been doing this type of giving for years so I'm not sure what they have really invented either.
- eddsh1994 4y agoI assume Introduction to EA Fellowships and their subsequent follow-up Fellowships will be the main ones. They do run AI Safety workshops in Cambridge so maybe they'll move those down there? There will be quite a few both directly related to EA and other topics that they're interested in.
- fasthands9 4y agoI guess my point is what efficacy do any of those programs have - especially the AI safety workshop? It seems extremely unproven to me and frankly I'm a bit cynical about it. Even if you do think that's very important, why not just have video lectures on it for the public?
- pr337h4m 4y agoBetter that they throw away "their" money on stuff like this instead of trying to exert control over AI
- fdsafdasfdsafds 4y agoFTX donated $13.9 million to them. Will they return this money to investors? [1] They can sell this estate to do so. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-altruism.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/business/ftx-effective-al... "The second-largest grant, in the amount of $13.9 million, went to the Center for Effective Altruism."
- bamboozled 4y agoIs it their fault that FTX donated the money ?
- jraines 4y agoNo, but try that line if you’re gifted a stolen car
- bamboozled 4y agoNo one has been charged or convicted of anything, nor do you know if the specific amount donated / used to buy this property was stolen?
- bakuninsbart 4y agoI agree that the money should be given back if possible, but this isn't limited to EA, SBF spent much more money on both US parties for example, and was basically just throwing dollars at anyone with influence, prestige or a visible platform.
- hackernewds 4y agoThat would ironically go against their stated principles.
- ta988 4y agoIt is not effectuve altruism it is yen buddhism. https://wiki.lspace.org/Yen_Buddhism https://wiki.lspace.org/Yen_Buddhism Don't get fooled.
- patchtopic 4y agonext step: driving a rolls royce, as they can be good for the voice.
- chillbill 4y agoIf it talks like a scam and walks like a scam, it is a scam.
- AustinDev 4y agoYeah this whole FTX thing has to be some sort of government op. At this point it makes less sense that it is not.
- ggm 4y agoThe capital appreciation of a listed building can be high, but is not always high. "it depends" So from a non-altruistic PoV it may, or may not turn out to be a sound investment irrespective of it's utility as a venue right now. As a venue, it may be profoundly attractive, induce all the right moods for visitors, and be sellable for service (weddings, funerals, videos..) so supplement income. Have known occupants of listed buildings in the UK, stately homes. Mostly, tenants who got them off the National Trust on peppercorn rent for putting up with the perpetual damp. If they are seeking investment funding having a villains lair (is there a dungeon? is it in working order?), or a mansion, might project the right kind of message to people with money who want to be altruistic. If they want to deal with poor people, less so.
- cma 4y agoIf that's the case then they should rent it out to others, use the profits on EA causes, and hold their own conferences in rented (or financed with the castle's rent) cheaper venues.
- gptadmirer 4y ago
- sasaf5 4y agoKumbayah AI, Kumbayah~ Kumbayah AI, Kumbayah
- throwaway1326 4y agoA perhaps relevant parable: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-prophet-and-caesars-wife https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-prophet-and-caesar...
- carabiner 4y agoused to support them but what a fucking joke. most of the world's renowned scientific research, including at universities, takes place in drab boxy office buildings. look at caltech. "creative thinking" has nothing to do with the buildings. such waste.
- shaman1 4y agoI used to support them until they jumped on the diversity bandwagon. I believe humanity has bigger issues to tackle right now. The ftx involvement signals to me that they did not do their due diligence, supposedly their main job. A 15M estate in Oxford? Looks to me like their decision criteria is not aligned with what they preach.
- AlbertCory 4y agoIn [1] I hosted Hugh Sinclair, who spent 10 years on the front lines of microfinance lending. What does that have to do with this? As he says: The first thing a lot of the microfinance outfits in Africa do is buy new SUVs for the staff. Because, you know, they can't be taking a bus to go give loans to the poor, now can they? This is the same sort of thinking: first take care of yourself. If there's any more needs you can't fill, ask for donations. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhdZ2RfmiXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhdZ2RfmiXo
- 0xy 4y agoIt's the same for any form of aid. For example, an NGO source on the ground in Ukraine said that before US auditors showed up (6 months later), only 30% of the US hardware made it to the frontlines. [1] That means tens of billions of dollars of aid, equipment and weapons was effectively stolen by corrupt officials. Where is it now? Probably in the hands of European crime gangs & cartels, who will use it to tear Europe up. Similarly, the Red Cross (a supposedly trustworthy organization) pilfered 25% of aid bound for Haiti and squandered the rest building effectively zero infrastructure/housing. [2] [3] Charities and aid should be assumed a massive scam until proven otherwise. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-military-aid-weapons-front-lines/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-military-aid-weapons-fr... [2] https://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482020436/senators-report-finds-fundamental-concerns-about-red-cross-finances https://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482020436/senators-report-fin... [3] https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-half-a-billion-dollars-for-haiti-and-built-6-homes https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-red-cross-raised-...
- _kbh_ 4y ago> It's the same for any form of aid. For example, an NGO source on the ground in Ukraine said that before US auditors showed up (6 months later), only 30% of the US hardware made it to the frontlines. [1] This is simply not true and requires a lot more nuance to even discuss. There’s a reason that CBS retracted nearly everything to do with it, it’s because they were misrepresenting the words of the people they spoke to.
- metta2uall 4y agoI find this very disappointing - to me one of the main points of EA is trying to maximise proven effectiveness & minimising unnecessary overheads. Where is the evidence that hosting so many in-person conferences is much more effective than a rare large in-person conference + many "mini-conferences" online? There are still many organisations that seem to be doing excellent work aligned with the EA ethos. The Life You Can Save, GiveWell and Animal Charity Evaluators are still updating their charity reviews. I hope the brand damage doesn't reduce their donations!
- jack_riminton 4y agoDefinitely not something a cult would do
- 9864250 4y agoI don't see any problem with this. Buying a building for £15M doesn't make you £15M poorer because you can sell the building later. Additionally, as the funding came from a grant specifically for this purpose, it's not money they could have spent on other things, but the money they save by not paying conference centres can be spent elsewhere.
- Veen 4y agoBut is it the best possible way to spend £15M to achieve altruistic aims? Plus, they own the house and land but they also have to maintain it. That's not inexpensive: most of these country houses are no longer in the hands of the original owners because they couldn't afford the upkeep.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago>Buying a building for £15M doesn't make you £15M poorer because you can sell the building later. Spoken like someone who has never been responsible for the maintenance of a very old home. :)
- stephc_int13 4y agoIf you really care about effective altruism, the only thing you should look at is the outcome, that is verifiable facts, not the verbiage. It is way too easy to lie with language, this is why we have so many bullshit artists. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
- gnramires 4y agoI wouldn't object to owning a place for reunion, but that's a lot of money. It does have historical value but even then, I think a more accessible place and better equipped for meetings and creativity would be far better. And although it is historical, it's debatable if that is aligned with EA's mission (if the house were like falling apart maybe that could be justified, but it doesn't seem the case). It really seems like the grant money got to their heads.
- LightG 4y agoWhat a racket... If it talks like a racket... Why didn't they just go the whole hog and buy a megachurch?
- chillbill 4y agoIndeed. Altruism is a sickness. Effective Altruism has just institutionalized it.
- LightG 4y agoWell, I dont have an issue with "altruism". Nothing wrong with a selfless act for another... but this? No.
- hikingsimulator 4y agoChill there, Ayn Rand.
- fdw 4y agoWould care to explain why "Altriusm is a sickness"? Caring about other people seems to be a good thing to me, so I'd like to hear your take.
- gadders 4y agoThe more I hear about EA, the more I think it is becoming the World Economic Forum for for zoomers. You may or may not think this is a good thing.
- Aachen 4y agoThe more I hear, the more I wonder what smear campaign is going on. The idea is obviously good, I've checked out the website a few years ago and iirc it had useful information that people can use to donate to things they care about and are effective. I'm not otherwise involved, but I can't understand why all the hate, why report only the negatives / political aspects of the organisation and condemning the whole idea? Is it like with people who too loudly proclaim to be vegan and the people around them can't stand it because they're made to feel morally inferior?
- sicarsit 4y ago
- HDThoreaun 4y agoThere's a lot of smear campaign stuff as well as some grifting going on. Most EA money continues to support global health causes through givewell, although the thought leaders have unfortunately spent a lot of time on longtermism.
- cma 4y agoHalf (of this org, maybe not givewell) goes to "building the movement" (buying lavish stuff like this and self promotion).
- dmix 4y agoThat's a pretty nice house for only $15M
- napier 4y agoEA is the Scientology of our time.
- Aachen 4y agoLink should be changed to something that's not an informationless rant. Just look at the "discussion" going on. Looks more like a set of villagers with pitchforks than a hacker news thread.
- stuaxo 4y agoThey turned £15 million worth of crypto currency into real currency, that will no doubt be realised at some point in the future.
- stuaxo 4y agoWhat events were held there, exactly, and how was the space used ?
- HDThoreaun 4y agoEA runs fellowships which are basically just recruitment events for students at top schools around the world. They have semi annual conferences. I'm sure they can come up with more stuff, probably rent it out to others looking for conference space too.
- Self-Perfection 4y agoThe purchase was made a year ago. Can we at least check how this estate was used since the purchase before lashing out onto EA for doing this purchase?
- advisedwang 4y agoNo super-intelligent AI from wiped out humanity. See, money well spent.
- boeingUH60 4y agoGood to see what EA is about…a private club for people with a lot of disposable income to pat each other on the backs for supposedly doing good…if they were so concerned about effective altruism, then they won’t be doing this. Anyways, it’s not a lot different from the few non-profits I’ve had experience with.
- yieldcrv 4y agoGiving them money was the effective altruism, its in the name the whole time
- LeroyRaz 4y agoSeems pretty standard for large long term institutions. See universities and religions. Investing in this kind of stuff seems pretty tested and effective
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoSomeone needs to write a Christmas themed satire about "elf-ective altruism" where the elves decide they can do more good by saving childrens lives in the developing world and everyone awkwardly agrees even though it's a buzz kill. I'm not sure exactly how you get to them buying expensive HQs and worrying about time travelling robots sent by evil AI and existential risks to near infinite future space-faring children's gifts but I'm not sure how the real EA made that leap either.