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Apple launches Self Service Repair in Europe

218 points by Terretta 4y ago

Not15CharsLong 4y ago
I would really like to believe this is not some sort of cynical attempt to circumvent current-and-future "right to repair" laws. On the one hand: yes, this does allow third parties to carry out repairs on Apple equipment. On the other hand: no, this is so costly and inconvenient that it effectively locks out everyone but Apple anyway. So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? A relaxation of "parts DRM", even if it weakens overall ecosystem security? A mandate to enable side-loaded OSes to extend hardware lifetime and perhaps enable certain kinds of (security-sensitive) repairs? I truly don't know...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Manfred 4y ago
  I agree, right to repair is a difficult thing. Technically I can repair my own car, but realistically I will take it to a shop because owning or renting all the tools required to even replace a tire from a rim is way too high.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    This actually really upset me when Apple first released their Self Service Repair program. Apple said it was the exact same tools their repair technicians use, and offered all the tools for a $49 rental (which, honestly, probably doesn't even cover shipping for 77 lbs. of equipment). The Verge, iFixit, Ars Technica, and others claimed Apple deliberately designed and priced their repair program to make self-service repair not worth it, even if there wasn't the part serialization. Which... what malarkey. Of course repairs are cheaper when you don't need to rent the toolkit every time and can reuse tools. According to Apple, the parts are the same cost the Apple Stores and their repair partners get, and according to congressional testimony this is not a profitable program, so what do you expect? Apple to sell parts publicly for cheaper than they get themselves? Do you want Apple to send you the repair tools for free and have cheaper parts? That's what they were saying - the parts should be cheaper and the tools should be less complicated even though that is what Apple literally uses. You think Apple repairs screens with guitar picks and are upset Apple doesn't ship those instead? It was really disappointing. Imagine if Apple was a car company. They wanted the ability to repair their cars, so Apple agreed to loan them for $249 hundreds of pounds of equipment for repairing just about anything on their cars. Then imagine if people cried this made car repair too complicated by design. Right to Repair does not encompass right to simple, idiot-proof, no-tools repair.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      The underlying idea of the right to repair program is for companies to start designing their stuff with self-repair in mind. It's not only about making spare parts available. So that you don't need hundreds of dollars of equipment to open up your phone. Then the whole buying/rental thing is a non-issue because all you'll need is a Philips #0. Or torx even (I love torx because it doesn't skip and damage the screw head) Fairphone for example does a great job showing us what what would look like. But this is the criticism I have with Apple's program. Technically they comply here but not in spirit. It's clear to me they don't actually want this to happen. They didn't invent pentalobe because it looks cool like a little flower. But to keep people out. Of course existing products can't be improved but upcoming products should take be easier to repair.
      - gjsman-1000 4y ago
        This is a different definition of Right to Repair entirely. iFixit and others fall into this definition, while people like Louis Rossmann believe R2R simply means Right to Repair, and not Right to a Repairable Design. This is another issue with R2R - some define it as just getting parts and tools; others as mandatory design guidelines and requirements. Pay attention carefully and watch different videos about what R2R means. There's a significant schism in the R2R movement over whether R2R means repairable design or not. The most successful branch legislatively (New York, Rossmann, EU proposals) says that it does not include repairable design; and that Right to Repair only encompasses the right to have manuals and parts, not that the manufacturer has to make specific design choices (other than, like, USB-C but that's not repair-related). Edit: Another issue that comes up is how granular is a "part". Louis Rossmann sees a part as being on the level of a specific microchip and is upset he can't order parts at that level of granularity. Apple, and other R2R activists, view a part as a much larger finished item, such as a PCB or a Battery (rather than, say, the specific resistor on the inside of a Battery). Legislators for R2R in EU currently are trying to define R2R as being "if the manufacturer sells a part, they must sell it to everyone," not "the manufacturer must individually sell all pieces of a product until they are no longer divisible" - but the Louis Rossmann crowd views as being insufficient R2R. So... another loose R2R schism.
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
    Replace the whole wheel. You don't need any tools (except those that supplied with the car itself). There're plenty of perfectly serviceable cars. You might be too rich to care about it, but I live in a third-world country and there're lots of people who do self-service for some repairs and procedures. It's not hard and it doesn't require costly tools. Especially with modern resources when you can download service manuals and watch youtube videos its easier than ever. You only need a will (or necessity).
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      Replace the whole wheel. You don't need any tools (except those that supplied with the car itself). Note that many new cars these days don't come with any tools at all. And spare tires are an expensive optional extra that don't always come with the tools anymore.
  - Broken_Hippo 4y ago
    These aren't the same beast, though. A lot of car tools are specialty tools than can only be used on other cars. And they are big because cars are big. It is hard for a library to stock some of these tools, too. People often have a few car tools, though: A jack, wrenches, and things like that. You know, the ones that are easier to store in an apartment closet and can be used for other things. Some libraries rent these. Phone tools are closer to the car tools that people have. Even small libraries can rent them and you can store them in your desk. You'll probably be able to use some on other electronics or at least other phones. You'll probably let family borrow them. Some of the tools are already affordable, too. The things you can't do, you can pay someone for. And they can probably work out of a kiosk. I'd actually argue that right to repair is hard, though - just not for the reasons stated. It is easier to unscrew something than to unglue it. We don't design for ease repairs. Ease of manufacturing has been winning out.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      It's not ease of manufacturing. Looking closely, following for years, one notices it's never been "ease of making" above all else for Apple, it's been how the device feels and lasts. They've demonstrably gone to insane lengths to figure out how to manufacture things better for use but impossible to make at scale before they figured it out. Then they teach suppliers those methods. Eventually others benefit too.
  - aeyes 4y ago
    > I will take it to a shop The question is if you can take your car to an independent repair shop and do they have access to tools, repair manuals and original parts? Today, independent shops often don't have access to genuine parts and the manufacturers don't make them available on purpose so that only they can do the repair at much higher prices. Right to repair isn't necessarily about doing the work yourself.
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    It's very different being able to take your car/laptop to any old shop than there only being a single shop that's licensed (enforced by lawyers+DRM+tool/part availability) to do repairs on your particular brand.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Two tire irons and a static balancer are about $100 at harbor freight, which is the same price my dealership charges to mount and balance 4 tires. I’ve tried it. It’s a lot of work, but it can be done without expensive tools.
    - oneplane 4y ago
      The problem with 'a lot of work' is that people price that as $0 while it actually isn't "free", unless you are prohibited from doing meaningful work for others or yourself, which most people aren't. So if the cost for some low-quality tools is the same as having it done with high-quality tools but saving you time and effort, it doesn't make sense to try to mass-market the low quality option. This is also what is probably at the core of all this right to repair stuff: there are definitely some anti-consumer practises but in reality people might be too busy with other things to fiddle around with their products when someone else could be doing it instead (or they might simply prefer it and shift any blame and quality control to a third party while they are at it). Even for really simplistic things like changing a light bulb in a car people just can't seem to be bothered.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      I used to be a professional auto mechanic. I know how to swap tires on a rim. I know how to do it without scratching the fuck out of your nice alloys (which you, dear inexperienced reader, are guaranteed to do the first few times you try it). I know why you need to get the bead into the recess of the rim lest you struggle mightily to get the new tire on. I've changed motorcycle tires by the side of the road with nothing but a couple of tire irons. I also know that "a lot of work" doesn't even begin to describe it if I'm doing it on my garage floor with tire irons. If you're low on money and without other options, by all means, give it a go. But if $100 isn't the difference between your kids eating or not, save yourself a fuck-ton of grief (as well as half a Saturday) and just go get those new skins put on at a shop where they have big air-driven machines that will spoon those things on in mere seconds. Back in my pro days, myself and a helper timed ourselves from the time the car pulled into the bay until it hit the ground with four new tires: nine minutes. I probably can't get a single wheel off my car from a cold start in nine minutes. So, yeah, it can be done. But you don't want to do it.
  - mitchdoogle 4y ago
    Replacing a tire is one thing that requires specialized equipment built for the task, but something like regular maintenance - changing oil, replacing filters, battery etc is relatively easy and can be done with basic tools that almost every "handy" person will have: wrenches, screwdrivers, etc.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Years ago I decided I should know how to change the oil in my car, and do it myself regularly. I bought the required equipment, did it once, and then never did it again. It took me longer than it took someone with expertise (and expensive, professional equipment), and it actually cost more, when considering I couldn't buy motor oil in bulk, and had to pay to dispose of one-off quantities of used oil properly. I would certainly replace the battery on my own, though. Well, maybe: getting a new battery home without the use of my car might be so annoying that it would probably be easier to just get a tow to a mechanic (or get someone to jump it and then drive to the mechanic). And again I'd have to deal with disposing of the old battery on my own: again, annoying and costly.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        The main reason I do my own oil changes is that all the cheap places are notoriously bad at it.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  > So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? It would take people to stop stealing iPhones and selling the parts to unscrupulous repair shops.
  - Not15CharsLong 4y ago
    "People stopping stealing iPhones" is not going to happen. And the current Apple policy of "well, enter your AppleID credentials to unlock this phone" deals with that pretty effectively. What we're talking about here, is disabling that possibility once the fingerprint sensor (OK), screen (huh) or battery (double huh) has been replaced. In other words: after which "repairs" exactly does Apple get to disable a device? Some of these would enable fencing, others definitely not... TL;DR: yeah, difficult!
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? Forcing them to make a larger, more modular device that a few loud people want and most regular users couldn't care less about. I don't buy the argument that Apple is forcing people to choose their devices. They're in business to make what customers want, and their broad success suggests they've got that nailed.
  - mitchdoogle 4y ago
    No one is arguing that Apple is forcing people to choose their devices. That is a straw man. Consumers overwhelmingly support right to repair: https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/consumer-reports-survey-finds-americans-overwhelmingly-support-the-right-to-repair/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/consumer-... https://morningconsult.com/2022/03/23/right-to-repair-electronic-devices-survey/ https://morningconsult.com/2022/03/23/right-to-repair-electr...
  - filoleg 4y ago
    > Forcing them to make a larger, more modular device that a few loud people want and most regular users couldn't care less about. Even worse than that, those few loud people who say they want it can easily turn out to be just that - loud, but not actually wanting it once their demands are satisfied. Case in point - iPhone Mini. Some people were loudly demanding a smaller iPhone for years. Apple introduces iPhone 12 Mini in Q4 2020 with great specs in a small form-factor. Builds on top of it with iPhone 13 Mini a year later. Then in 2022, Apple announces discontinuing iPhone Mini line due to very weak sales.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Why would your takeaway from that be that even the loud people didn't want it? It's perfectly plausible that all the loud people bought the Mini, but it still wasn't enough to make it a viable product. Also, Apple gave it less then two years. I could easily imagine plenty of people wanting the Mini, but being unable to justify the purchase because their existing (larger) iPhone was only a few years old. Not everyone has the resources to buy a new iPhone every year or two.
mmastrac 4y ago
I'd love to hear the backroom conversations that lit a fire under them to launch this in the EU. I wager that right-to-repair is getting close over there and forcing Apple devices to use USB-C was a bellweather. Their programs haven't been great so far, but _some_ repairability is better than none, and eventually this will build a taste for non-disposable devices in consumers' minds.
- Zenst 4y ago
  The whole aspect this was already launched in the USA, meant that expanding it was logical, however it was needed. The real question is - how competitive is it, and prices. Hence, device insurance is, and probably will be, the safest move for many still.
- sircastor 4y ago
  I really don't think the law is what pushed Apple to adopt USB-C. I think they actually wanted to use it back in 2012 when they introduced lightning, but USB-C wasn't ready for primetime, so they made their own.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    It was pretty clear that Apple was going to phase out Lightning in favor of USB-C at some point. The only question is at what point given that it was going to be something of a slight negative for existing customers--but that's less true today with USB-C increasingly widespread.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Now is about the right time for my family. We've got critical mass for USB-C -- the macbooks, newest iPads for the kids, chromebooks, etc. We're down to only having Lightning for our iPhones and my wife's iPad. So we've crossed over the point where losing the lightning cable would be annoying, and into the zone where it'll be nice to throw it out and only have USB-C from here forward.
  - MBCook 4y ago
Zenst 4y ago
Including the UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63866869 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63866869
- Zenst 4y ago
  Ah I see the article says "Europe" not EU, many convolute the two alas. More so this is only some countries in Europe, so might want to change the title.
  - richrichardsson 4y ago
    Yes, I came to make this comment too. As a resident in a minor EU country, the fact we are often excluded from lists of EU countries in many companies websites is a source of much frustration. The title should be amended to say "parts of Europe", not "across EU".
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
And this probably should give everyone an idea of how powerful EU is an economic entity despite being more internally divided than US. Naturally, as moves go ( edit: for Apple ), it is very rational ( and as some already noted, it is not that dissimilar to what some car makers do -- provide tools, but at ridiculous cost and hoops to jump through ). It is absolutely a step in the right direction.
- yreg 4y ago
  This program was in the US first. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/04/apples-self-service-repair-now-available/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/04/apples-self-service-r...
- vinay427 4y ago
  What does this have to do with the EU and the US? The program just launched in 8 European countries, 7 of which are in the EU, several months after launching in the US. I don't see any clear pattern that has to do with the EU considering the program was launched in a non-EU country first and still isn't available in much of the EU.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    Are you suggesting Apple provided this program out of their good will? In a very real sense, were it not for the strength of EU as an economic block, this would not have happened.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      I don't think Apple cares that much about EU legislation. Given their location, I think it's more likely they're paying attention to legislation in California and getting out ahead of that.
    - daemoens 4y ago
      Most people don't see the EU as weak, just ineffectual. But it was definitely the EU that got them to do all this.
hubraumhugo 4y ago
I'm building a community that collects data about the longevity and repairability of products. This could evenentually help to keep corporations accountable: http://looria.com/ExitReviews http://looria.com/ExitReviews
- skywal_l 4y ago
  Great idea. The problem might be that only people pissed of at a product might be motivated enough to add a review and you end up with a skewed view. Anyway, added a review. Best of luck!
- arthurcolle 4y ago
  This redirects to looria?
- isx726552 4y ago
  If you’re relying entirely on user submitted data, how are you planning to combat spam, griefers, disgruntled types, and competitors trying to smear each other?
- mapierce 4y ago
  Interesting! Will bookmark
- solarkraft 4y ago
  Who will end up owning the data?
sircastor 4y ago
I've been recently trying to resurrect my mom's old 2015 MacBook Air and there's a special excitement in being able to follow the clues on the logic board as to where there's a problem, and then being able to fix it. When I was going through my father's stuff after he died, I came across a Television manual that had come with the product. It included a full schematic of the TV. Every resistor, capacitor, transistor, and diode. I marveled at the idea that the company who made this TV was more interested in your having confidence in the product than protecting their next sale...
- staringback 4y ago
  This is what they took from us
- kube-system 4y ago
  > I marveled at the idea that the company who made this TV was more interested in your having confidence in the product than protecting their next sale... Because back then a TV cost an arm and a leg and they broke more often. Being maintainable was a requirement for the initial sale.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Did a quick look and a 21" color TV in the mid-70s was around $3,000 in today's dollars.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      This is always an important point that seldom gets brought up these days when people are complaining about "they don't make things like they used to." Of course they don't, and we're generally better off as a result.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        And it's not like everything was made to last longer in the "good old days." If you lived somewhere with snow, you were lucky to get a car through 5 years and 50,000 miles--and it probably needed fairly regular tune-ups etc. to keep running.
celestialcheese 4y ago
The response from the folks at repair.eu is great[1] Apple is just trying to front-run legislation that is gaining momentum, just like they did last year when Biden and the FTC signaled R2R friendly legislation. They will do anything to make sure they stay at the center and in control of their products from cradle to grave. 1 - https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-the-right-to-repair-we-need/ https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-t...
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  If your default assumption is Apple is evil, you will always find a reason to be critical. There is literally nothing they could do which would make you happy.
  - celestialcheese 4y ago
    Where did I say Apple is evil? They make incredible products, and I've been a lifelong user. I'll happily give credit where credit is due - They have made great strides in their latest iteration of products towards repairability with battery glue tabs and making the batteries accessible without full disassembly. The Jony Ive era of "Thin at all costs" is thankfully over. But I'm not going to be their cheerleader when they make a move that is deliberately designed to undercut independents and preempt consumer-friendly legislation for repair in the EU and US. This program is purely corporate strategy and marketing to defend a major profit center.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    Isn’t it evil? The goal is a profit and ways to get there are secondary. Like for all mega corporations in the world.
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
iPhone 13 Display Bundle: $269.95 ($236.35 after credit). Letting Apple stores handle it is ~300, so not really worth doing it yourself. Yeah I guess they did that on purpose.
- W4ldi 4y ago
  Or: Apple isn't doing any profit repairing your device.
  - TrickyRick 4y ago
    Or: Apple is profiting from both repairs and sale of repair kits? (I have no idea which is true, but the fact that the kit is roughly the price of the repair+a reasonable salary for the work is by no means an indication that they make no profit)
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  What's the retail price of a 100% comparable display panel?
  - rasz 4y ago
    $110 on ebay
denysonique 4y ago
The parts for the EU market seem to be more expensive than for the US. Example, iPhone 13 Pro Max screen price: US: $311.96 UK: $338.63 ($26.73 more expensive) Poland: $351.35 ($39.39 more expensive) The prices are without VAT/Sales Tax (20% for UK and 23% for Poland already deducted respectively)
- sbuk 4y ago
  Consequences of poorly performing GBP and Euro.
  - denysonique 4y ago
    >Consequences of poorly performing GBP and Euro. In the comparison I have used current exchange rates. GBP or PLN don't have a tendency to drop down by 10% overnight. I also do not see the reason why Apple couldn't offer the option to charge in USD, in Europe many banks offer currency conversion without fees for online card payments, such as Monzo in the UK.
    - andylynch 4y ago
      It’s simple, their finance team’s would be made significantly more complicated and costly - eg now you get to do extra FX management on your stores local sales for VAT. And virtually all their local customers will be wanting/ only able to pay in their local currency anyway. All to sell at an arguably lower price ?
  - bonestamp2 4y ago
    Not to mention, potential higher operating costs in some countries (which means the cost to provide these items is also higher). For example, labor and energy costs are higher in the UK and Europe than in the US. Someone else mentioned that warranties are required to be longer in the EU, which would increase the OEM's operating cost as well.
    - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
polishdude20 4y ago
But do they provide board views?
cosentiyes 4y ago
A nice first step, but somewhat frustrating that they don't include pre-2020 models. A fan in my 2018 mbp has recently started to act up and "reputable" sellers (ifixit) are currently out of stock.
imiric 4y ago
> "We believe the best technology for our customers and for the planet is technology that lasts, which is why we design our products to be durable and rarely require maintenance or repair,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “But when a repair is needed, we want customers to have many options for safe, reliable, and secure repair. That’s why we’re excited to launch Self Service Repair in Europe, giving our customers direct access to genuine Apple parts, tools, and manuals.” Corporate PR doublespeak at its finest. My eyes rolled back into my head reading this. "Technology that lasts" from a company who perfected planned obsolescence. "Rarely require maintenance or repair" might've been their ethos decades ago, but nowadays there are plenty of dumb design and hardware issues. See Louis Rossman for examples. "We want customers to have many options for safe, reliable, and secure repair" translates to "we were happy gouging customers for an AppleCare subscription, and fighting 3rd party repair shops, until governments introduced pesky consumer rights and anti-competitive laws". But great, let's celebrate all mighty Apple finally doing what they should've been doing all along, _in one region of the world where they're legally obligated to do so_.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  I find Apple devices have outlasted similar caliber devices from Google or Samsung. Obviously, they all can suffer from battery issues over time, but everything from physical build quality to software updates seems to last.
- savanaly 4y ago
  I used my last iPhone for 7+ years I believe, and didn't feel forced to upgrade when I finally did either. How is that Apple have "perfected planned obsolescence"?
  - imiric 4y ago
    https://www.euroconsumers.org/activities/stop-planned-obsolescence-apple-case https://www.euroconsumers.org/activities/stop-planned-obsole... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/01/apple-lawsuit-portugal-planned-obsolescence/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/01/apple-lawsuit-portugal-planne... These are just the top results for "apple planned obsolescence". You've either been living under a rock or willfully ignoring these issues. Your personal anecdata doesn't make them any less true.
prophet_ 4y ago
my story: dropped my iphone x ended up with a detached screen. Decided to fix it myself. While handling the screen and disconnecting cables I managed to damage Face ID sensor permanently. Decided to take advantage and replace battery. In the process of removing the battery cable managed to damage it in such a way that cable now keeps disconnecting itself. While trying to disconnect the battery cables by removing the parts near charging connector I managed to pull it a bit strongly and damage the charging connector that is connected to the logic board. Even if I manage to repair the phone to the state it was (incl face id) with a professional it will cost as much as another phone. With the experience above I decided I will think twice next time before trying to repair devices myself. Update: typos.
- jboy55 4y ago
  I tried to fix a broken ringer switch along time ago, felt it just needed cleaning. Took off screen, unclipped connector. Cleaned out switch. Then I tried to hook connector back, couldn't get it connected back. Panicked. Felt I basically broke it, and needed to buy a new phone. Left it for a day, didn't sleep at night, with a sick feeling since I wasn't ready to buy a new phone at the time. Thought about buying the previous model used. But then the next day, I figured since it was broke to me, I'd just try really hard to push it back on. Eventually with enough force I thought I'd break everything on it, nearly all my weight, I felt the click of the connector snapping on. Phone turned on. Switch still didn't work. Gave up fixing my phone after that.

218 points by Terretta 4y ago

I would really like to believe this is not some sort of cynical attempt to circumvent current-and-future "right to repair" laws. On the one hand: yes, this does allow third parties to carry out repairs on Apple equipment. On the other hand: no, this is so costly and inconvenient that it effectively locks out everyone but Apple anyway. So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? A relaxation of "parts DRM", even if it weakens overall ecosystem security? A mandate to enable side-loaded OSes to extend hardware lifetime and perhaps enable certain kinds of (security-sensitive) repairs? I truly don't know...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Manfred 4y ago
I agree, right to repair is a difficult thing. Technically I can repair my own car, but realistically I will take it to a shop because owning or renting all the tools required to even replace a tire from a rim is way too high.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  This actually really upset me when Apple first released their Self Service Repair program. Apple said it was the exact same tools their repair technicians use, and offered all the tools for a $49 rental (which, honestly, probably doesn't even cover shipping for 77 lbs. of equipment). The Verge, iFixit, Ars Technica, and others claimed Apple deliberately designed and priced their repair program to make self-service repair not worth it, even if there wasn't the part serialization. Which... what malarkey. Of course repairs are cheaper when you don't need to rent the toolkit every time and can reuse tools. According to Apple, the parts are the same cost the Apple Stores and their repair partners get, and according to congressional testimony this is not a profitable program, so what do you expect? Apple to sell parts publicly for cheaper than they get themselves? Do you want Apple to send you the repair tools for free and have cheaper parts? That's what they were saying - the parts should be cheaper and the tools should be less complicated even though that is what Apple literally uses. You think Apple repairs screens with guitar picks and are upset Apple doesn't ship those instead? It was really disappointing. Imagine if Apple was a car company. They wanted the ability to repair their cars, so Apple agreed to loan them for $249 hundreds of pounds of equipment for repairing just about anything on their cars. Then imagine if people cried this made car repair too complicated by design. Right to Repair does not encompass right to simple, idiot-proof, no-tools repair.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    The underlying idea of the right to repair program is for companies to start designing their stuff with self-repair in mind. It's not only about making spare parts available. So that you don't need hundreds of dollars of equipment to open up your phone. Then the whole buying/rental thing is a non-issue because all you'll need is a Philips #0. Or torx even (I love torx because it doesn't skip and damage the screw head) Fairphone for example does a great job showing us what what would look like. But this is the criticism I have with Apple's program. Technically they comply here but not in spirit. It's clear to me they don't actually want this to happen. They didn't invent pentalobe because it looks cool like a little flower. But to keep people out. Of course existing products can't be improved but upcoming products should take be easier to repair.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      This is a different definition of Right to Repair entirely. iFixit and others fall into this definition, while people like Louis Rossmann believe R2R simply means Right to Repair, and not Right to a Repairable Design. This is another issue with R2R - some define it as just getting parts and tools; others as mandatory design guidelines and requirements. Pay attention carefully and watch different videos about what R2R means. There's a significant schism in the R2R movement over whether R2R means repairable design or not. The most successful branch legislatively (New York, Rossmann, EU proposals) says that it does not include repairable design; and that Right to Repair only encompasses the right to have manuals and parts, not that the manufacturer has to make specific design choices (other than, like, USB-C but that's not repair-related). Edit: Another issue that comes up is how granular is a "part". Louis Rossmann sees a part as being on the level of a specific microchip and is upset he can't order parts at that level of granularity. Apple, and other R2R activists, view a part as a much larger finished item, such as a PCB or a Battery (rather than, say, the specific resistor on the inside of a Battery). Legislators for R2R in EU currently are trying to define R2R as being "if the manufacturer sells a part, they must sell it to everyone," not "the manufacturer must individually sell all pieces of a product until they are no longer divisible" - but the Louis Rossmann crowd views as being insufficient R2R. So... another loose R2R schism.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  Replace the whole wheel. You don't need any tools (except those that supplied with the car itself). There're plenty of perfectly serviceable cars. You might be too rich to care about it, but I live in a third-world country and there're lots of people who do self-service for some repairs and procedures. It's not hard and it doesn't require costly tools. Especially with modern resources when you can download service manuals and watch youtube videos its easier than ever. You only need a will (or necessity).
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    Replace the whole wheel. You don't need any tools (except those that supplied with the car itself). Note that many new cars these days don't come with any tools at all. And spare tires are an expensive optional extra that don't always come with the tools anymore.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  These aren't the same beast, though. A lot of car tools are specialty tools than can only be used on other cars. And they are big because cars are big. It is hard for a library to stock some of these tools, too. People often have a few car tools, though: A jack, wrenches, and things like that. You know, the ones that are easier to store in an apartment closet and can be used for other things. Some libraries rent these. Phone tools are closer to the car tools that people have. Even small libraries can rent them and you can store them in your desk. You'll probably be able to use some on other electronics or at least other phones. You'll probably let family borrow them. Some of the tools are already affordable, too. The things you can't do, you can pay someone for. And they can probably work out of a kiosk. I'd actually argue that right to repair is hard, though - just not for the reasons stated. It is easier to unscrew something than to unglue it. We don't design for ease repairs. Ease of manufacturing has been winning out.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    It's not ease of manufacturing. Looking closely, following for years, one notices it's never been "ease of making" above all else for Apple, it's been how the device feels and lasts. They've demonstrably gone to insane lengths to figure out how to manufacture things better for use but impossible to make at scale before they figured it out. Then they teach suppliers those methods. Eventually others benefit too.
- aeyes 4y ago
  > I will take it to a shop The question is if you can take your car to an independent repair shop and do they have access to tools, repair manuals and original parts? Today, independent shops often don't have access to genuine parts and the manufacturers don't make them available on purpose so that only they can do the repair at much higher prices. Right to repair isn't necessarily about doing the work yourself.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  It's very different being able to take your car/laptop to any old shop than there only being a single shop that's licensed (enforced by lawyers+DRM+tool/part availability) to do repairs on your particular brand.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Two tire irons and a static balancer are about $100 at harbor freight, which is the same price my dealership charges to mount and balance 4 tires. I’ve tried it. It’s a lot of work, but it can be done without expensive tools.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    The problem with 'a lot of work' is that people price that as $0 while it actually isn't "free", unless you are prohibited from doing meaningful work for others or yourself, which most people aren't. So if the cost for some low-quality tools is the same as having it done with high-quality tools but saving you time and effort, it doesn't make sense to try to mass-market the low quality option. This is also what is probably at the core of all this right to repair stuff: there are definitely some anti-consumer practises but in reality people might be too busy with other things to fiddle around with their products when someone else could be doing it instead (or they might simply prefer it and shift any blame and quality control to a third party while they are at it). Even for really simplistic things like changing a light bulb in a car people just can't seem to be bothered.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    I used to be a professional auto mechanic. I know how to swap tires on a rim. I know how to do it without scratching the fuck out of your nice alloys (which you, dear inexperienced reader, are guaranteed to do the first few times you try it). I know why you need to get the bead into the recess of the rim lest you struggle mightily to get the new tire on. I've changed motorcycle tires by the side of the road with nothing but a couple of tire irons. I also know that "a lot of work" doesn't even begin to describe it if I'm doing it on my garage floor with tire irons. If you're low on money and without other options, by all means, give it a go. But if $100 isn't the difference between your kids eating or not, save yourself a fuck-ton of grief (as well as half a Saturday) and just go get those new skins put on at a shop where they have big air-driven machines that will spoon those things on in mere seconds. Back in my pro days, myself and a helper timed ourselves from the time the car pulled into the bay until it hit the ground with four new tires: nine minutes. I probably can't get a single wheel off my car from a cold start in nine minutes. So, yeah, it can be done. But you don't want to do it.
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  Replacing a tire is one thing that requires specialized equipment built for the task, but something like regular maintenance - changing oil, replacing filters, battery etc is relatively easy and can be done with basic tools that almost every "handy" person will have: wrenches, screwdrivers, etc.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Years ago I decided I should know how to change the oil in my car, and do it myself regularly. I bought the required equipment, did it once, and then never did it again. It took me longer than it took someone with expertise (and expensive, professional equipment), and it actually cost more, when considering I couldn't buy motor oil in bulk, and had to pay to dispose of one-off quantities of used oil properly. I would certainly replace the battery on my own, though. Well, maybe: getting a new battery home without the use of my car might be so annoying that it would probably be easier to just get a tow to a mechanic (or get someone to jump it and then drive to the mechanic). And again I'd have to deal with disposing of the old battery on my own: again, annoying and costly.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      The main reason I do my own oil changes is that all the cheap places are notoriously bad at it.
labcomputer 4y ago
> So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? It would take people to stop stealing iPhones and selling the parts to unscrupulous repair shops.
- Not15CharsLong 4y ago
  "People stopping stealing iPhones" is not going to happen. And the current Apple policy of "well, enter your AppleID credentials to unlock this phone" deals with that pretty effectively. What we're talking about here, is disabling that possibility once the fingerprint sensor (OK), screen (huh) or battery (double huh) has been replaced. In other words: after which "repairs" exactly does Apple get to disable a device? Some of these would enable fencing, others definitely not... TL;DR: yeah, difficult!
rootusrootus 4y ago
> So, what would it take to enable cost-effective repair of Apple equipment? Forcing them to make a larger, more modular device that a few loud people want and most regular users couldn't care less about. I don't buy the argument that Apple is forcing people to choose their devices. They're in business to make what customers want, and their broad success suggests they've got that nailed.
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  No one is arguing that Apple is forcing people to choose their devices. That is a straw man. Consumers overwhelmingly support right to repair: https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/consumer-reports-survey-finds-americans-overwhelmingly-support-the-right-to-repair/ https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/consumer-... https://morningconsult.com/2022/03/23/right-to-repair-electronic-devices-survey/ https://morningconsult.com/2022/03/23/right-to-repair-electr...
- filoleg 4y ago
  > Forcing them to make a larger, more modular device that a few loud people want and most regular users couldn't care less about. Even worse than that, those few loud people who say they want it can easily turn out to be just that - loud, but not actually wanting it once their demands are satisfied. Case in point - iPhone Mini. Some people were loudly demanding a smaller iPhone for years. Apple introduces iPhone 12 Mini in Q4 2020 with great specs in a small form-factor. Builds on top of it with iPhone 13 Mini a year later. Then in 2022, Apple announces discontinuing iPhone Mini line due to very weak sales.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Why would your takeaway from that be that even the loud people didn't want it? It's perfectly plausible that all the loud people bought the Mini, but it still wasn't enough to make it a viable product. Also, Apple gave it less then two years. I could easily imagine plenty of people wanting the Mini, but being unable to justify the purchase because their existing (larger) iPhone was only a few years old. Not everyone has the resources to buy a new iPhone every year or two.

mmastrac 4y ago

I'd love to hear the backroom conversations that lit a fire under them to launch this in the EU. I wager that right-to-repair is getting close over there and forcing Apple devices to use USB-C was a bellweather. Their programs haven't been great so far, but _some_ repairability is better than none, and eventually this will build a taste for non-disposable devices in consumers' minds.

Zenst 4y ago
The whole aspect this was already launched in the USA, meant that expanding it was logical, however it was needed. The real question is - how competitive is it, and prices. Hence, device insurance is, and probably will be, the safest move for many still.
sircastor 4y ago
I really don't think the law is what pushed Apple to adopt USB-C. I think they actually wanted to use it back in 2012 when they introduced lightning, but USB-C wasn't ready for primetime, so they made their own.
- ghaff 4y ago
  It was pretty clear that Apple was going to phase out Lightning in favor of USB-C at some point. The only question is at what point given that it was going to be something of a slight negative for existing customers--but that's less true today with USB-C increasingly widespread.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Now is about the right time for my family. We've got critical mass for USB-C -- the macbooks, newest iPads for the kids, chromebooks, etc. We're down to only having Lightning for our iPhones and my wife's iPad. So we've crossed over the point where losing the lightning cable would be annoying, and into the zone where it'll be nice to throw it out and only have USB-C from here forward.
- MBCook 4y ago

Zenst 4y ago

Including the UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63866869 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-63866869

Zenst 4y ago
Ah I see the article says "Europe" not EU, many convolute the two alas. More so this is only some countries in Europe, so might want to change the title.
- richrichardsson 4y ago
  Yes, I came to make this comment too. As a resident in a minor EU country, the fact we are often excluded from lists of EU countries in many companies websites is a source of much frustration. The title should be amended to say "parts of Europe", not "across EU".

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

And this probably should give everyone an idea of how powerful EU is an economic entity despite being more internally divided than US. Naturally, as moves go ( edit: for Apple ), it is very rational ( and as some already noted, it is not that dissimilar to what some car makers do -- provide tools, but at ridiculous cost and hoops to jump through ). It is absolutely a step in the right direction.

yreg 4y ago
This program was in the US first. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/04/apples-self-service-repair-now-available/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/04/apples-self-service-r...
vinay427 4y ago
What does this have to do with the EU and the US? The program just launched in 8 European countries, 7 of which are in the EU, several months after launching in the US. I don't see any clear pattern that has to do with the EU considering the program was launched in a non-EU country first and still isn't available in much of the EU.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Are you suggesting Apple provided this program out of their good will? In a very real sense, were it not for the strength of EU as an economic block, this would not have happened.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I don't think Apple cares that much about EU legislation. Given their location, I think it's more likely they're paying attention to legislation in California and getting out ahead of that.
  - daemoens 4y ago
    Most people don't see the EU as weak, just ineffectual. But it was definitely the EU that got them to do all this.

hubraumhugo 4y ago

I'm building a community that collects data about the longevity and repairability of products. This could evenentually help to keep corporations accountable: http://looria.com/ExitReviews http://looria.com/ExitReviews

skywal_l 4y ago
Great idea. The problem might be that only people pissed of at a product might be motivated enough to add a review and you end up with a skewed view. Anyway, added a review. Best of luck!
arthurcolle 4y ago
This redirects to looria?
isx726552 4y ago
If you’re relying entirely on user submitted data, how are you planning to combat spam, griefers, disgruntled types, and competitors trying to smear each other?
mapierce 4y ago
Interesting! Will bookmark
solarkraft 4y ago
Who will end up owning the data?

sircastor 4y ago

I've been recently trying to resurrect my mom's old 2015 MacBook Air and there's a special excitement in being able to follow the clues on the logic board as to where there's a problem, and then being able to fix it. When I was going through my father's stuff after he died, I came across a Television manual that had come with the product. It included a full schematic of the TV. Every resistor, capacitor, transistor, and diode. I marveled at the idea that the company who made this TV was more interested in your having confidence in the product than protecting their next sale...

staringback 4y ago
This is what they took from us
kube-system 4y ago
> I marveled at the idea that the company who made this TV was more interested in your having confidence in the product than protecting their next sale... Because back then a TV cost an arm and a leg and they broke more often. Being maintainable was a requirement for the initial sale.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Did a quick look and a 21" color TV in the mid-70s was around $3,000 in today's dollars.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    This is always an important point that seldom gets brought up these days when people are complaining about "they don't make things like they used to." Of course they don't, and we're generally better off as a result.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      And it's not like everything was made to last longer in the "good old days." If you lived somewhere with snow, you were lucky to get a car through 5 years and 50,000 miles--and it probably needed fairly regular tune-ups etc. to keep running.

celestialcheese 4y ago

The response from the folks at repair.eu is great[1] Apple is just trying to front-run legislation that is gaining momentum, just like they did last year when Biden and the FTC signaled R2R friendly legislation. They will do anything to make sure they stay at the center and in control of their products from cradle to grave. 1 - https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-the-right-to-repair-we-need/ https://repair.eu/news/apples-self-repair-programme-is-not-t...

rootusrootus 4y ago
If your default assumption is Apple is evil, you will always find a reason to be critical. There is literally nothing they could do which would make you happy.
- celestialcheese 4y ago
  Where did I say Apple is evil? They make incredible products, and I've been a lifelong user. I'll happily give credit where credit is due - They have made great strides in their latest iteration of products towards repairability with battery glue tabs and making the batteries accessible without full disassembly. The Jony Ive era of "Thin at all costs" is thankfully over. But I'm not going to be their cheerleader when they make a move that is deliberately designed to undercut independents and preempt consumer-friendly legislation for repair in the EU and US. This program is purely corporate strategy and marketing to defend a major profit center.
- lnsru 4y ago
  Isn’t it evil? The goal is a profit and ways to get there are secondary. Like for all mega corporations in the world.

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

iPhone 13 Display Bundle: $269.95 ($236.35 after credit). Letting Apple stores handle it is ~300, so not really worth doing it yourself. Yeah I guess they did that on purpose.

W4ldi 4y ago
Or: Apple isn't doing any profit repairing your device.
- TrickyRick 4y ago
  Or: Apple is profiting from both repairs and sale of repair kits? (I have no idea which is true, but the fact that the kit is roughly the price of the repair+a reasonable salary for the work is by no means an indication that they make no profit)
rootusrootus 4y ago
What's the retail price of a 100% comparable display panel?
- rasz 4y ago
  $110 on ebay

denysonique 4y ago

The parts for the EU market seem to be more expensive than for the US. Example, iPhone 13 Pro Max screen price: US: $311.96 UK: $338.63 ($26.73 more expensive) Poland: $351.35 ($39.39 more expensive) The prices are without VAT/Sales Tax (20% for UK and 23% for Poland already deducted respectively)

sbuk 4y ago
Consequences of poorly performing GBP and Euro.
- denysonique 4y ago
  >Consequences of poorly performing GBP and Euro. In the comparison I have used current exchange rates. GBP or PLN don't have a tendency to drop down by 10% overnight. I also do not see the reason why Apple couldn't offer the option to charge in USD, in Europe many banks offer currency conversion without fees for online card payments, such as Monzo in the UK.
  - andylynch 4y ago
    It’s simple, their finance team’s would be made significantly more complicated and costly - eg now you get to do extra FX management on your stores local sales for VAT. And virtually all their local customers will be wanting/ only able to pay in their local currency anyway. All to sell at an arguably lower price ?
- bonestamp2 4y ago
  Not to mention, potential higher operating costs in some countries (which means the cost to provide these items is also higher). For example, labor and energy costs are higher in the UK and Europe than in the US. Someone else mentioned that warranties are required to be longer in the EU, which would increase the OEM's operating cost as well.
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago

polishdude20 4y ago

But do they provide board views?

cosentiyes 4y ago

A nice first step, but somewhat frustrating that they don't include pre-2020 models. A fan in my 2018 mbp has recently started to act up and "reputable" sellers (ifixit) are currently out of stock.

imiric 4y ago

> "We believe the best technology for our customers and for the planet is technology that lasts, which is why we design our products to be durable and rarely require maintenance or repair,” said Jeff Williams, Apple’s chief operating officer. “But when a repair is needed, we want customers to have many options for safe, reliable, and secure repair. That’s why we’re excited to launch Self Service Repair in Europe, giving our customers direct access to genuine Apple parts, tools, and manuals.” Corporate PR doublespeak at its finest. My eyes rolled back into my head reading this. "Technology that lasts" from a company who perfected planned obsolescence. "Rarely require maintenance or repair" might've been their ethos decades ago, but nowadays there are plenty of dumb design and hardware issues. See Louis Rossman for examples. "We want customers to have many options for safe, reliable, and secure repair" translates to "we were happy gouging customers for an AppleCare subscription, and fighting 3rd party repair shops, until governments introduced pesky consumer rights and anti-competitive laws". But great, let's celebrate all mighty Apple finally doing what they should've been doing all along, _in one region of the world where they're legally obligated to do so_.

HWR_14 4y ago
I find Apple devices have outlasted similar caliber devices from Google or Samsung. Obviously, they all can suffer from battery issues over time, but everything from physical build quality to software updates seems to last.
savanaly 4y ago
I used my last iPhone for 7+ years I believe, and didn't feel forced to upgrade when I finally did either. How is that Apple have "perfected planned obsolescence"?
- imiric 4y ago
  https://www.euroconsumers.org/activities/stop-planned-obsolescence-apple-case https://www.euroconsumers.org/activities/stop-planned-obsole... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/01/apple-lawsuit-portugal-planned-obsolescence/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/03/01/apple-lawsuit-portugal-planne... These are just the top results for "apple planned obsolescence". You've either been living under a rock or willfully ignoring these issues. Your personal anecdata doesn't make them any less true.

prophet_ 4y ago

my story: dropped my iphone x ended up with a detached screen. Decided to fix it myself. While handling the screen and disconnecting cables I managed to damage Face ID sensor permanently. Decided to take advantage and replace battery. In the process of removing the battery cable managed to damage it in such a way that cable now keeps disconnecting itself. While trying to disconnect the battery cables by removing the parts near charging connector I managed to pull it a bit strongly and damage the charging connector that is connected to the logic board. Even if I manage to repair the phone to the state it was (incl face id) with a professional it will cost as much as another phone. With the experience above I decided I will think twice next time before trying to repair devices myself. Update: typos.

jboy55 4y ago
I tried to fix a broken ringer switch along time ago, felt it just needed cleaning. Took off screen, unclipped connector. Cleaned out switch. Then I tried to hook connector back, couldn't get it connected back. Panicked. Felt I basically broke it, and needed to buy a new phone. Left it for a day, didn't sleep at night, with a sick feeling since I wasn't ready to buy a new phone at the time. Thought about buying the previous model used. But then the next day, I figured since it was broke to me, I'd just try really hard to push it back on. Eventually with enough force I thought I'd break everything on it, nearly all my weight, I felt the click of the connector snapping on. Phone turned on. Switch still didn't work. Gave up fixing my phone after that.