5 ms·

This stuff feels revolutionary, and I say that as someone that has watched the progress even the last few months and said to myself that it won't radically chan

by xrd 4y ago

This stuff feels revolutionary, and I say that as someone that has watched the progress even the last few months and said to myself that it won't radically change the software industry. I think I was wrong. Also, as they say, maintenance is where the true cost of software lies. Has to anyone asked ChatGPT to refactor existing horrible code? It's fascinating to think about what happens to refactoring existing code if the AI doesn't care if it gets laid off, and can refactor again (if the new code fails) within seconds rather than days. And, what happens when rewrite from scratch takes seconds instead of months. Joel's law of never rewrite from scratch might completely fall away. This feels really game changing. If anyone can come in and just pitch ideas to AI with zero barriers for cost analysis, it's going to open the doors for software to eat every tiny segment that has not already been devoured.

czbond 4y ago
One of the most likely professions eaten by software, is software. You are on point. I've been quietly mentioning this to software engineer friends, and poo pooed. I am more of the computer science-y than software engineer-y persuasion - and have seen this as a clear risk. edit 1: originally I thought it will mainly be for new code bases (green field) - but with the ability for code to "git pull" and then "chatgpt refactor" may be a game changer. edit 2: I think this is great - it can allow engineers to work on a higher level. I remember in CompSci training always thinking "why in the heck am I typing into a computer how to do its job?" and "why should engineers be dealing with stupid $hit like NaN and pointer overflows (C++) and heap issues an CRUD apps. It all seems like low brain stuff"
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  AI will eat software engineering the same way it'll eat art - from the bottom, and quickly at first then very very slowly. Engineers will be responsible for directing, verifying and correcting AIs at increasingly high levels over time. Hand written code will be limited to optimizations and working around weaknesses in the model much the same as inline assembly is still used with compiled code.
  - czbond 4y ago
    Fully agree with your assessment. Bottom up is vulnerable. I can then see engineers running entire department of AI by themselves..... someone who is an architect level and understands the business and can both envision the services, but also fix black box systems creating content that no one understands under the covers.
- dweekly 4y ago
  This could be a very good time to create a startup that can make that command line and: 1. Document its functioning overall ("chatgpt doc") 2. Find bugs / logical flaws ("chatgpt debug") 3. Refactor the code for readability ("chatgpt refactor") 4. Improve its compute/memory performance ("chatgpt speed") 5. Improve the quality of comments ("chatgpt comment") Or just "chatgpt fix" to do all the above ;)
  - worldsayshi 4y ago
    Seems that the main limitation at this point would be the OpenAI Terms of Use. How much freedom is given to build commercial services on top of their API?
quonn 4y ago
I think it's too early to tell. It feels like early translators. It's indeed very impressive, but could be 5-10 years from actually having something useful and it's unclear what the practical impact will be. But it's also true that I wouldn't know what career to recommend to someone now in their early 20s who has 30 years ahead. As I said too difficult to predict right now.
- wokwokwok 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s hard to predict at all. The diffusion art models make it very clear that these technologies go from toys to replacing people’s jobs very very quickly. Short of a (not impossible) breakdown in civilization, the current rate of change suggests that 5-10 years is probably unrealistic. More like 2-4 years, it will be technically possible to be reasonably high level software engineering. It’s already possible to chain high level “how would I do x?” Planning to “write code to do y…” code generation. It’s very very obvious that technically it’s going to be possible to do a great deal of mechanical work like refactoring and adding trivial features automatically. Companies do not need 50 engineers doing 100x productivity. They need like, 5. What remains to be seen is if governments and legal systems allow that scale of displacement of human labor to occur or not. …buuut, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.
  - johnfn 4y ago
    To my mind though this is only half the question. Let's assume that every company goes from 100 to 5 engineers - I could see that. But today, almost every company (aside from behemoths like FB, Google, etc) are engineer starved - they'd like to do so much more, but they don't have enough engineering manpower. One possibility is that, yes, engineers become much less in demand. But there's another possibility where the number of companies explodes because the amount of software that can be built is no longer bottlenecked on the number of engineers you can hire.
  - thr0wawayf00 4y ago
    > The diffusion art models make it very clear that these technologies go from toys to replacing people’s jobs very very quickly. Do you have any evidence that art jobs are being replaced now? I was talking with a designer friend of mine recently and he's not heard of Stable Diffusion, etc. replacing jobs yet. This is something that people keep bringing up but I haven't yet seen any evidence to back it up.
satvikpendem 4y ago
> Has to anyone asked ChatGPT to refactor existing horrible code? Yes it works well with stuff like React class components to functional ones with hooks. It even tells you what to optimize and does it for you, if you ask it to.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Whoa. Do you have a good guide on how to do this?
  - tarr11 4y ago
    you prompt with “rewrite this code, but use React Hooks”
dzink 4y ago
Someone fed it legacy buggy code and it fixed the bugs.
conradfr 4y ago
So, take-home code tests are dead?
- ekidd 4y ago
  Yes. I gave ChatGPT two favorite coding screens I'd used in the past. They're nothing fancy—ordinary, everyday coding tasks. ChatGPT implemented the first program successfully, and explained how it worked. (It compulsively explains code, which is nice.) ChatGPT's performance on the second program was more impressive. I explained what I wanted the program to do, and gave sample input and output data. ChatGPT wrote a clear, clever Python implementation with a single bug, and then explained that it would produce incorrect output. It showed what the incorrect output would be. The it explained how to fix the bug, and provided code for the fix. In both cases, it used some clever, clean tricks I had never seen before, and explained how they worked. It can absolutely pass coding screens better than half the people I saw submit resumes to one of my old jobs. Or you can ask it to answer essay questions about French literature, in French. It does that, too. (I have managed to break it. Try giving it perfectly correct code and telling it find 2 bugs and explain them.)
mrtksn 4y ago
Honestly I'm not that interested in the code part. It does well but it's not perfect, it's good for some stuff - just like with the copilot. For more concrete things like coding I like to have the control and not use a middleman. What blows my mind is that I suddenly gain extra powers that I previously did not posses. For example, let's say I'm developing an adventure game and I need to write content but writing is not my speciality. Fear not, I have access to Janet from the Good Place and it's called ChatGPT here on Earth. So I'm writing a dialog for my character who is a gentlemen in England that came from old money. I simply tell chatGPT: rewrite the sentence to sound more posh "I want to eat cookies but I am not hungry yet" chatGPT: "I wish to partake in some biscuits, but I am not yet famished." Okay, maybe its a bit overdone but I like it and can already imagine his moustache and the hat, I definitely couldn't have written that by myself and if "AI" think this is about right then it will probably sound right to many people because that "AI" is essentially a result of a study of other peoples work. IMHO this AI stuff enables access to mastery and experience, not really replacing the thoughts of real people. It's the same with Dall-E or Stable Diffusion, you still need to be able to think ideas but the ability to paint like Van Gogh comes for free(or something like 0.01$).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- akiselev 4y ago
  Imagine applying it to the tech job search: unique resumes and cover letters tailor made for each job application.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    good idea!
  - briga 4y ago
    Recruiters are going to use it too for personalized messages to every single candidate. I suspect future developments are going to make it increasingly difficult to filter out spam from your inbox
bjeanes 4y ago
> Has to anyone asked ChatGPT to refactor existing horrible code? I'm not sure if "horrible" but I did experiment with getting it to refactor some code. I also gave it code with a bug and asked it to fix it (I described the bug), which it was able to do. I didn't test very complicated scenarios though. In the bug fix case, it was code to wrap, indent, and prefix a block of text.

by xrd 4y ago

czbond 4y ago

One of the most likely professions eaten by software, is software. You are on point. I've been quietly mentioning this to software engineer friends, and poo pooed. I am more of the computer science-y than software engineer-y persuasion - and have seen this as a clear risk. edit 1: originally I thought it will mainly be for new code bases (green field) - but with the ability for code to "git pull" and then "chatgpt refactor" may be a game changer. edit 2: I think this is great - it can allow engineers to work on a higher level. I remember in CompSci training always thinking "why in the heck am I typing into a computer how to do its job?" and "why should engineers be dealing with stupid $hit like NaN and pointer overflows (C++) and heap issues an CRUD apps. It all seems like low brain stuff"

CuriouslyC 4y ago
AI will eat software engineering the same way it'll eat art - from the bottom, and quickly at first then very very slowly. Engineers will be responsible for directing, verifying and correcting AIs at increasingly high levels over time. Hand written code will be limited to optimizations and working around weaknesses in the model much the same as inline assembly is still used with compiled code.
- czbond 4y ago
  Fully agree with your assessment. Bottom up is vulnerable. I can then see engineers running entire department of AI by themselves..... someone who is an architect level and understands the business and can both envision the services, but also fix black box systems creating content that no one understands under the covers.
dweekly 4y ago
This could be a very good time to create a startup that can make that command line and: 1. Document its functioning overall ("chatgpt doc") 2. Find bugs / logical flaws ("chatgpt debug") 3. Refactor the code for readability ("chatgpt refactor") 4. Improve its compute/memory performance ("chatgpt speed") 5. Improve the quality of comments ("chatgpt comment") Or just "chatgpt fix" to do all the above ;)
- worldsayshi 4y ago
  Seems that the main limitation at this point would be the OpenAI Terms of Use. How much freedom is given to build commercial services on top of their API?

quonn 4y ago

I think it's too early to tell. It feels like early translators. It's indeed very impressive, but could be 5-10 years from actually having something useful and it's unclear what the practical impact will be. But it's also true that I wouldn't know what career to recommend to someone now in their early 20s who has 30 years ahead. As I said too difficult to predict right now.

wokwokwok 4y ago
I don’t think it’s hard to predict at all. The diffusion art models make it very clear that these technologies go from toys to replacing people’s jobs very very quickly. Short of a (not impossible) breakdown in civilization, the current rate of change suggests that 5-10 years is probably unrealistic. More like 2-4 years, it will be technically possible to be reasonably high level software engineering. It’s already possible to chain high level “how would I do x?” Planning to “write code to do y…” code generation. It’s very very obvious that technically it’s going to be possible to do a great deal of mechanical work like refactoring and adding trivial features automatically. Companies do not need 50 engineers doing 100x productivity. They need like, 5. What remains to be seen is if governments and legal systems allow that scale of displacement of human labor to occur or not. …buuut, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.
- johnfn 4y ago
  To my mind though this is only half the question. Let's assume that every company goes from 100 to 5 engineers - I could see that. But today, almost every company (aside from behemoths like FB, Google, etc) are engineer starved - they'd like to do so much more, but they don't have enough engineering manpower. One possibility is that, yes, engineers become much less in demand. But there's another possibility where the number of companies explodes because the amount of software that can be built is no longer bottlenecked on the number of engineers you can hire.
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  > The diffusion art models make it very clear that these technologies go from toys to replacing people’s jobs very very quickly. Do you have any evidence that art jobs are being replaced now? I was talking with a designer friend of mine recently and he's not heard of Stable Diffusion, etc. replacing jobs yet. This is something that people keep bringing up but I haven't yet seen any evidence to back it up.

satvikpendem 4y ago

> Has to anyone asked ChatGPT to refactor existing horrible code? Yes it works well with stuff like React class components to functional ones with hooks. It even tells you what to optimize and does it for you, if you ask it to.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
Whoa. Do you have a good guide on how to do this?
- tarr11 4y ago
  you prompt with “rewrite this code, but use React Hooks”

dzink 4y ago

Someone fed it legacy buggy code and it fixed the bugs.

conradfr 4y ago

So, take-home code tests are dead?

ekidd 4y ago
Yes. I gave ChatGPT two favorite coding screens I'd used in the past. They're nothing fancy—ordinary, everyday coding tasks. ChatGPT implemented the first program successfully, and explained how it worked. (It compulsively explains code, which is nice.) ChatGPT's performance on the second program was more impressive. I explained what I wanted the program to do, and gave sample input and output data. ChatGPT wrote a clear, clever Python implementation with a single bug, and then explained that it would produce incorrect output. It showed what the incorrect output would be. The it explained how to fix the bug, and provided code for the fix. In both cases, it used some clever, clean tricks I had never seen before, and explained how they worked. It can absolutely pass coding screens better than half the people I saw submit resumes to one of my old jobs. Or you can ask it to answer essay questions about French literature, in French. It does that, too. (I have managed to break it. Try giving it perfectly correct code and telling it find 2 bugs and explain them.)

mrtksn 4y ago

Honestly I'm not that interested in the code part. It does well but it's not perfect, it's good for some stuff - just like with the copilot. For more concrete things like coding I like to have the control and not use a middleman. What blows my mind is that I suddenly gain extra powers that I previously did not posses. For example, let's say I'm developing an adventure game and I need to write content but writing is not my speciality. Fear not, I have access to Janet from the Good Place and it's called ChatGPT here on Earth. So I'm writing a dialog for my character who is a gentlemen in England that came from old money. I simply tell chatGPT: rewrite the sentence to sound more posh "I want to eat cookies but I am not hungry yet" chatGPT: "I wish to partake in some biscuits, but I am not yet famished." Okay, maybe its a bit overdone but I like it and can already imagine his moustache and the hat, I definitely couldn't have written that by myself and if "AI" think this is about right then it will probably sound right to many people because that "AI" is essentially a result of a study of other peoples work. IMHO this AI stuff enables access to mastery and experience, not really replacing the thoughts of real people. It's the same with Dall-E or Stable Diffusion, you still need to be able to think ideas but the ability to paint like Van Gogh comes for free(or something like 0.01$).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
akiselev 4y ago
Imagine applying it to the tech job search: unique resumes and cover letters tailor made for each job application.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  good idea!
- briga 4y ago
  Recruiters are going to use it too for personalized messages to every single candidate. I suspect future developments are going to make it increasingly difficult to filter out spam from your inbox

bjeanes 4y ago

> Has to anyone asked ChatGPT to refactor existing horrible code? I'm not sure if "horrible" but I did experiment with getting it to refactor some code. I also gave it code with a bug and asked it to fix it (I described the bug), which it was able to do. I didn't test very complicated scenarios though. In the bug fix case, it was code to wrap, indent, and prefix a block of text.