6 ms·

To use another sports example, I watched "The Last Dance" recently. There's footage of Dennis Rodman working out and he says to the camera, "Its not just basket

To use another sports example, I watched "The Last Dance" recently. There's footage of Dennis Rodman working out and he says to the camera, "Its not just basketball we have to deal with on this team... Its the pressure of the bullshit. I'll play the game for free. You get paid for the bullshit after. Basketball is a simple game, but when you leave this confined zone. Its hard."[1] That's why people get disenchanted with programming (and with a lot of other things)! We love to do the actual core activity. We love it so much we do it for free. You get paid for having to deal with the pressure to succeed. And you get paid for having to do all the other stuff that comes along with it. Its the other stuff that grates on you until you hate it. [1] https://youtu.be/-Ythtg8ZVbY?t=166 https://youtu.be/-Ythtg8ZVbY?t=166

jason-phillips 4y ago
> We love it so much we do it for free. Absolutely. I would have worked for SpaceX if they let me sleep in a hanger, they wouldn't have to pay me. I would work for free for a company making widgets for which people paid cash money if they let me work on interesting problems, interfacing with my customers, so as to see the fruits of my labor pay off. Happiness isn't always derived from that which our society says it should be.
- amelius 4y ago
  People forget that even without salary an employee still costs quite a lot of money.
nicbou 4y ago
Definitely. I got to experience programming before and after doing it professionally. My passion for it left, then returned as quickly as it left. I always loved programming, but doing it professionally just wasn't the same.
- Maphistow 4y ago
  What did you do after coding?
  - nicbou 4y ago
    allaboutberlin.com
- lordgroff 4y ago
  One of my colleagues often asks how I have the energy to code after work. The reason is simple, one is coding things that give me a comfortable life, the other is coding things for pleasure. They're also very specifically not the same subject area at all because that would be awful.
mozman 4y ago
Software was great 20 years ago, now everyone is searching for money.
- WJW 4y ago
  20 years ago was 2002, only a few years after the dotcom boom in which people were most definitely searching for money. There is plenty of great software right now, if you look for it carefully.
  - hnfong 4y ago
    Also, most "great" software available in 2002 can still be accessed today. You wouldn't want to run it though. Which OS to start with? - Windows? Unpatched Windows XP gets compromised within minutes on the internet. Microsoft spent years trying to fix all sorts of trivial security holes. - Linux? Have fun with Mozilla 0.9 (pretty much the only browser choice) - MacOSX? Only just recently released, not quite featureful as subsequent releases, and required you to buy expensive Mac hardware. Why don't people run these systems on VMs on their browsers (it's quite feasible these days)? Because they aren't actually as good as the stuff we have today.
- capableweb 4y ago
  That's why Open Source (the "Individual-OSS", not "corporate/PR-OSS" that is also very popular today) is still great and pervasive. People writing code to solve their own problems, publishing the code for everyone to use if they want to, with no expectations of anything else than "Here is the code, do what you want with it".
- pjc50 4y ago
  I think you're missing a /s tag there, as 20 years ago was the end of the first dotcom boom, which was surprisingly similar to today in terms of vague business plans getting huge amounts of money thrown at them, and a lot of people getting into software for the money.
- golergka 4y ago
  What's bad about searching for money?
jerrre 4y ago
I see it as: it's the "bullshit" that creates the value for others. Basketball, or programming for your own pleasure is just that: pleasure. of course you'd do it for free if it's something you enjoy. But the fact that it has to generate value for others is what removes the fun. You will have to make changes to your priorities, take into account others' preferences, etc etc. Luckily if done right generates enough money to compensate for that.
- matkoniecz 4y ago
  > But the fact that it has to generate value for others is what removes the fun. At least for me that adds to fun.
- krageon 4y ago
  Money will never compensate fun. It's just what you do so you can eat at all. I have not met a single person who on their deathbed thought "I could have had more fun, but that's fine because I have money".
  - rob74 4y ago
    Not on their deathbed, but before that, having money can help you have more fun, if not while working, then at least in your free time. It doesn't have to be obscene amounts of money, but if you're constantly broke and can't afford anything, that's definitely not fun either...
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  The constraint that you need to generate value also makes it fun, or at least, rewarding (to the heart) 2 programs. One only gets used by me, the other by 100 people. It is way more fun to write the second. Compensation being equal and all.
  - WJW 4y ago
    I don't know. I've written programs used by millions in an enterprise-grade code base and the amount of paperwork, poor management, meetings and mandatory HR trainings made the process not much fun at all, even if compensation was pretty good. OTOH I really enjoyed the programs used just by me, written in my spare time exactly the way I want.
grecy 4y ago
Yep, I gave up a software eng career 7 years ago. I always say I loved using my brain, solving hard problems and working with smart people. All the rest is why I walked away.
- pragmatic 4y ago
  What do you do now?
  - grecy 4y ago
    Travel writer, photographer, you tuber. I drive around the world and tell stories about it. I’m “The Road Chose Me”
loudmax 4y ago
Agreed. You could be romantic about carpentry or bicycle repair or even accounting if you create the right mental framework. What strangles the romance isn't the craft itself, it's the pressures that surround it.
slothtrop 4y ago
> We love it so much we do it for free. I think this truism is well overstated by HN regulars.
fallous 4y ago
"Play" is doing something you want to do. "Work" is doing something someone else wants you to do or needs to be done. The former gives you complete agency, the latter is a reduction of your agency. If that something is valuable enough to someone they will pay for someone else to do that thing they can't or don't want to do (the pay is necessarily related to the value they have assigned as well as the retention of their agency in the matter). Of course they have to find that someone else that is willing to do that something for the pay offered, which means that someone else has to weigh whether the loss of agency is worth the payment offered to them. It is not so much that "we love to do the actual core activity" since there are few programmers that would enjoy being constrained to constantly re-implementing basic CRUD functionality for months or years. We instead love the core activity driven by our own agency, doing what we want simply because the reward is satisfying that want.
albrewer 4y ago
This is why I quit my engineering job. I loved what I did. I hated the environments I had to do it in, and the other stuff that wasn't engineering that inevitably comes with engineering roles.

jason-phillips 4y ago

> We love it so much we do it for free. Absolutely. I would have worked for SpaceX if they let me sleep in a hanger, they wouldn't have to pay me. I would work for free for a company making widgets for which people paid cash money if they let me work on interesting problems, interfacing with my customers, so as to see the fruits of my labor pay off. Happiness isn't always derived from that which our society says it should be.

amelius 4y ago
People forget that even without salary an employee still costs quite a lot of money.

nicbou 4y ago

Definitely. I got to experience programming before and after doing it professionally. My passion for it left, then returned as quickly as it left. I always loved programming, but doing it professionally just wasn't the same.

Maphistow 4y ago
What did you do after coding?
- nicbou 4y ago
  allaboutberlin.com
lordgroff 4y ago
One of my colleagues often asks how I have the energy to code after work. The reason is simple, one is coding things that give me a comfortable life, the other is coding things for pleasure. They're also very specifically not the same subject area at all because that would be awful.

mozman 4y ago

Software was great 20 years ago, now everyone is searching for money.

WJW 4y ago
20 years ago was 2002, only a few years after the dotcom boom in which people were most definitely searching for money. There is plenty of great software right now, if you look for it carefully.
- hnfong 4y ago
  Also, most "great" software available in 2002 can still be accessed today. You wouldn't want to run it though. Which OS to start with? - Windows? Unpatched Windows XP gets compromised within minutes on the internet. Microsoft spent years trying to fix all sorts of trivial security holes. - Linux? Have fun with Mozilla 0.9 (pretty much the only browser choice) - MacOSX? Only just recently released, not quite featureful as subsequent releases, and required you to buy expensive Mac hardware. Why don't people run these systems on VMs on their browsers (it's quite feasible these days)? Because they aren't actually as good as the stuff we have today.
capableweb 4y ago
That's why Open Source (the "Individual-OSS", not "corporate/PR-OSS" that is also very popular today) is still great and pervasive. People writing code to solve their own problems, publishing the code for everyone to use if they want to, with no expectations of anything else than "Here is the code, do what you want with it".
pjc50 4y ago
I think you're missing a /s tag there, as 20 years ago was the end of the first dotcom boom, which was surprisingly similar to today in terms of vague business plans getting huge amounts of money thrown at them, and a lot of people getting into software for the money.
golergka 4y ago
What's bad about searching for money?

jerrre 4y ago

I see it as: it's the "bullshit" that creates the value for others. Basketball, or programming for your own pleasure is just that: pleasure. of course you'd do it for free if it's something you enjoy. But the fact that it has to generate value for others is what removes the fun. You will have to make changes to your priorities, take into account others' preferences, etc etc. Luckily if done right generates enough money to compensate for that.

matkoniecz 4y ago
> But the fact that it has to generate value for others is what removes the fun. At least for me that adds to fun.
krageon 4y ago
Money will never compensate fun. It's just what you do so you can eat at all. I have not met a single person who on their deathbed thought "I could have had more fun, but that's fine because I have money".
- rob74 4y ago
  Not on their deathbed, but before that, having money can help you have more fun, if not while working, then at least in your free time. It doesn't have to be obscene amounts of money, but if you're constantly broke and can't afford anything, that's definitely not fun either...
quickthrower2 4y ago
The constraint that you need to generate value also makes it fun, or at least, rewarding (to the heart) 2 programs. One only gets used by me, the other by 100 people. It is way more fun to write the second. Compensation being equal and all.
- WJW 4y ago
  I don't know. I've written programs used by millions in an enterprise-grade code base and the amount of paperwork, poor management, meetings and mandatory HR trainings made the process not much fun at all, even if compensation was pretty good. OTOH I really enjoyed the programs used just by me, written in my spare time exactly the way I want.

grecy 4y ago

Yep, I gave up a software eng career 7 years ago. I always say I loved using my brain, solving hard problems and working with smart people. All the rest is why I walked away.

pragmatic 4y ago
What do you do now?
- grecy 4y ago
  Travel writer, photographer, you tuber. I drive around the world and tell stories about it. I’m “The Road Chose Me”

loudmax 4y ago

Agreed. You could be romantic about carpentry or bicycle repair or even accounting if you create the right mental framework. What strangles the romance isn't the craft itself, it's the pressures that surround it.

slothtrop 4y ago

> We love it so much we do it for free. I think this truism is well overstated by HN regulars.

fallous 4y ago

"Play" is doing something you want to do. "Work" is doing something someone else wants you to do or needs to be done. The former gives you complete agency, the latter is a reduction of your agency. If that something is valuable enough to someone they will pay for someone else to do that thing they can't or don't want to do (the pay is necessarily related to the value they have assigned as well as the retention of their agency in the matter). Of course they have to find that someone else that is willing to do that something for the pay offered, which means that someone else has to weigh whether the loss of agency is worth the payment offered to them. It is not so much that "we love to do the actual core activity" since there are few programmers that would enjoy being constrained to constantly re-implementing basic CRUD functionality for months or years. We instead love the core activity driven by our own agency, doing what we want simply because the reward is satisfying that want.

albrewer 4y ago

This is why I quit my engineering job. I loved what I did. I hated the environments I had to do it in, and the other stuff that wasn't engineering that inevitably comes with engineering roles.