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I am relieved to see that regulators appear aware of the game that Frontier seems to be playing. I flew to Denver recently and didn't need to travel heavy so I

I am relieved to see that regulators appear aware of the game that Frontier seems to be playing. I flew to Denver recently and didn't need to travel heavy so I went with their cheap fare. The flight from SFO was fine. The flight from DEN to SFO was extremely frustrating. We arrived at DEN early because we got a text message warning us about major TSA delays. Literally the moment we were about to board Frontier changed the flight status to canceled. The plane was there, we saw it arrive and I didn't get the impression there was mechanical issues. It was one of those situations where I intuited that it was useless to try to get my money back and I should just vow to never fly with them again and give everyone a heads up not to use them (like I am doing here).

mattwad 4y ago
They are the scum of the universe. If you don't pay for your seats, they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together, because they know you'll shell out cash to fix it. (I think American does this now too, and possibly others but I haven't confirmed they also do it when there's available seats).
- gonehome 4y ago
  Isn't that their whole game? If you're going to fly them you should know it. They have the cheapest fares, but they do that by upselling everything and any mistake will be expensive. If that's worth it to you (and sometimes the cost difference is big enough for it to be worth it imo) then it can be a reasonable tradeoff. Flying an extreme lost cost airline that's entire existence is predicated on this model and expecting them to act contrary to that is confusing to me.
  - Benjammer 4y ago
    A large chunk of people think that every product should be certified as 100% effective and that just being able to read two numbers and see which one is the smaller number is the absolute maximum amount of work that should be required to be an informed customer of any product on the planet. Any defect in the product is "a scam," yet, anyone who pays anything more than the absolute minimum viable option is a total sucker. It's honestly a very strange way to view the world that I don't really understand. My source is that my mother is an ardent member of this group of peole. I find that it mostly just leads to the opportunity to complain about everything and build up a complex around you being "slighted" by the universe all the time.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      I see your point, but also believe markets of all kinds function better where there is price transparency and it's easy to see what you get for what you're paying, as early in the process as possible. Makes for a more efficient economy that benefits everyone, even the producers in the long run.
    - everforward 4y ago
      I don't think it should (or can) be that simple, but I also think some of these airlines intentionally hide that "standard" services aren't included, and sometimes even the pricing. E.g. [1]. I had no idea the pricing of carry-ons for Frontier changed depending on when/where you add it. It also makes it hard to compare prices across airlines, because I have to remember which charge for luggage and how much, so I can add it to the cost when I use flight finders. Sometimes the changes are also something I wouldn't think about. E.g. I flew Southwest recently and had no idea that "open seating" was even a thing to check for. I can see how people who don't fly regularly get confused. I fly a couple times a year and get surprised, I can't imagine the bewilderment of someone who flies once every 5 or 10 years.
- pxx 4y ago
  I'm actually fairly upset when airlines _don't_ do this. They're just leaving money on the table. If you want to pick your seat, pay for it.
  - elmomle 4y ago
    So you only get to sit with your loved ones if you have enough money? That's not a world I want to have any part in.
    - pxx 4y ago
      You only get to fly to see your loved ones if you have enough money too. Ancillary revenue like seat assignment fees makes it so that more people can afford to see their loved ones.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        This is only true if those seat assignment charges actually result in significantly lower ticket prices for everyone else, which is far from guaranteed.
        pxx 4y ago
        It's not guaranteed, but competition solves this problem, and competition has empirically been particularly effective in the airline industry. There is a very good reason people fly Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant/Sun Country.
        cool_dude85 4y ago
        No, you see, if they don't lower costs to the point of making no profit, then they will go out of business. Thats called competition and it's why no companies are able to buy shares back or pay dividends.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I'm not a fan of a lot of the fees that airlines impose--but then I also don't fly budget airlines or buy the cheapest tickets. Personally I'd probably be happier with a more premium flying experience and somewhat higher ticket prices--though not enough to routinely upgrade to business class. And I'm sure there are many people for whom air travel over Christmas to visit family is something of a luxury appreciate being able to spend less money.
- infotogivenm 4y ago
  Personally I’ve always seen them allow you to get up and relocate as soon as cabin doors closes. But yea, you didn’t pay for a seat assignment so you might get stuck where-ever. They’re pretty clear about this… Flown Frontier many dozens of times, since I usually travel alone with just a backpack. It’s probably saved me $5-10k in my adult life. Very often it will be $150+ less than the next cheapest option.
  - jghn 4y ago
    Speaking of relocating, I don't love having to pay to pick one's seat, but IMO the larger problem are the customers who choose to don't pay and assume they can bully other passengers into moving. Yeah it sucks you have to pay for the privilege, but it's not the other passenger's responsibility to handle it for you.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  > they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together Airline seats are also assigned based on weight distribution. It's not just malice and greed.
- qazxcvbnmlp 4y ago
  Right now American seats basic economy in the middle seats and main in isle or windows. The system will try and seat family’s together if they are on the same reservation and the kids are under 15. So you’re best to pay for seats if you want to be together. However, if you pay for seats and they change your flight on you, those seats are ‘lost and you need to call for a refund.
ceejayoz 4y ago
Why would you not get your money back from an airline-initiated cancellation? I get giving up on delay compensation - I'm currently fighting travel insurance on an 18 hour delay that incured a hotel stay - but "we canceled your flight, but we're keeping your money" seems like a scenario where the airline clearly has no leg to stand on. Hell, do a credit card chargeback.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  We had flights cancelled — they gave us a "voucher", not our money back. The voucher apparently expires so we had to use it or lose it. Also, the voucher was only good for the ticketed passengers it affected, so we could not use it for one of our daughters, for example. Also, when we did try to use it we were told it was not valid for many of the seats/tickets we were trying to book. Where it was valid: upgraded (business class or first class) flights, flights with several layovers.... Such bullshit.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I think you just play the call to complain game there. They have to give you like for like; if you bought the flight with a voucher that expires, sure, refund it with a voucher that expires. But if you bought with cash, they should give you cash back. In my experience (at 800k lifetime miles at this point), the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you're not happy with something, call to complain.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      This. The voucher is always their first offer and they will claim it is all they can do. Keep pushing and they will refund your money in the same form of payment you used but they don't want you to know you have that right.
      - TedKroft 4y ago
        Yea but you have to commit to spending hours on hold with the expectation that they might not cave. I've gone back in forth with airlines before only to get nothing, it's not worth the time often. There should be some law that refunds (and many other business operations) should be automatic and can't be gatekept with several layers of phone systems, lies about only giving you a restricted voucher, and holds of more than X minutes.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> major TSA delays. This infuriates me. Last week I was stuck in line for TSA for an hour and a half at Sea-Tac. The TSA clowns had one guy looking at the X-rays of luggage at the speed of molasses. Am I to believe that the TSA, FAA and airlines can't coordinate to determine when gluts of incoming passengers are expected? Bullshit. Why didn't they have more TSA workers on shift? Because they don't give a shit, nothing in the structure of the system gives the TSA an incentive to give a shit and do their job well. What do they care if people miss their flights? They don't, those smug pieces of shit don't care at all. They even have signs plastered all over their checkpoint threatening you with federal charges and huge fines if you "verbally abuse" the TSA workers. In this country it is legal for me to call a traffic cop a fascist pig, but I can't say the same to a TSA agent? I hate them so much.
- FigurativeVoid 4y ago
  I used to work in the same building as the TSA. They were some of the rudest people I have ever been around. They would smoke in the stairwells and literally anywhere other than the smoking areas. They have the same problem as BMVs, they have literally no incentive to improve. There is no competition.
  - mcculley 4y ago
    And now they are like other bad organizations (e.g., police departments that have a history of shooting unarmed people) in the respect that nobody wants to be associated with them, so they can only recruit from the bottom.
    - FigurativeVoid 4y ago
      They also don't get paid when we have budget legislation. Who would want to work in a place like that?
      - banannaise 4y ago
        Paying more for a job already designed to attract terrible people will still attract the same terrible people, it will just make them richer. Again, see police departments. You can see a different sort of example in teaching: teachers put up with terrible pay for a long time, but now they're quitting in droves because of terrible work conditions and lack of emotional fulfillment. You have to change the nature of the job from something designed around theater and blustering to something actually useful. The pay is never the problem, it's that the jobs are bullshit. Although once the jobs are no longer bullshit, we should probably pay them better.
wellareyousure 4y ago
Southwest also advertises many more flights than it plans to actually fly. Like if there's no penalty for a less than 2 hour adjustment, why not advertise flights every hour, and then regroup people day of? Or send them to Oakland instead of San Francisco, day of?
infotogivenm 4y ago
Probably flight crew resourcing issues. Incredibly common on all airlines lately unfortunately, this year I’ve had it happen on American (twice!) and United, but surprisingly not Frontier yet. United at least let me know before I went to the airport.
germandiago 4y ago
I would be happier if they gave back that money to customers directly. If the airlines do not do it, let the govt. do it after they pay the fine. However, what happens is that they put a fine and later they spend the money however they decide. It is funny. :)

mattwad 4y ago

They are the scum of the universe. If you don't pay for your seats, they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together, because they know you'll shell out cash to fix it. (I think American does this now too, and possibly others but I haven't confirmed they also do it when there's available seats).

gonehome 4y ago
Isn't that their whole game? If you're going to fly them you should know it. They have the cheapest fares, but they do that by upselling everything and any mistake will be expensive. If that's worth it to you (and sometimes the cost difference is big enough for it to be worth it imo) then it can be a reasonable tradeoff. Flying an extreme lost cost airline that's entire existence is predicated on this model and expecting them to act contrary to that is confusing to me.
- Benjammer 4y ago
  A large chunk of people think that every product should be certified as 100% effective and that just being able to read two numbers and see which one is the smaller number is the absolute maximum amount of work that should be required to be an informed customer of any product on the planet. Any defect in the product is "a scam," yet, anyone who pays anything more than the absolute minimum viable option is a total sucker. It's honestly a very strange way to view the world that I don't really understand. My source is that my mother is an ardent member of this group of peole. I find that it mostly just leads to the opportunity to complain about everything and build up a complex around you being "slighted" by the universe all the time.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    I see your point, but also believe markets of all kinds function better where there is price transparency and it's easy to see what you get for what you're paying, as early in the process as possible. Makes for a more efficient economy that benefits everyone, even the producers in the long run.
  - everforward 4y ago
    I don't think it should (or can) be that simple, but I also think some of these airlines intentionally hide that "standard" services aren't included, and sometimes even the pricing. E.g. [1]. I had no idea the pricing of carry-ons for Frontier changed depending on when/where you add it. It also makes it hard to compare prices across airlines, because I have to remember which charge for luggage and how much, so I can add it to the cost when I use flight finders. Sometimes the changes are also something I wouldn't think about. E.g. I flew Southwest recently and had no idea that "open seating" was even a thing to check for. I can see how people who don't fly regularly get confused. I fly a couple times a year and get surprised, I can't imagine the bewilderment of someone who flies once every 5 or 10 years.
pxx 4y ago
I'm actually fairly upset when airlines _don't_ do this. They're just leaving money on the table. If you want to pick your seat, pay for it.
- elmomle 4y ago
  So you only get to sit with your loved ones if you have enough money? That's not a world I want to have any part in.
  - pxx 4y ago
    You only get to fly to see your loved ones if you have enough money too. Ancillary revenue like seat assignment fees makes it so that more people can afford to see their loved ones.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      This is only true if those seat assignment charges actually result in significantly lower ticket prices for everyone else, which is far from guaranteed.
      - pxx 4y ago
        It's not guaranteed, but competition solves this problem, and competition has empirically been particularly effective in the airline industry. There is a very good reason people fly Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant/Sun Country.
      - cool_dude85 4y ago
        No, you see, if they don't lower costs to the point of making no profit, then they will go out of business. Thats called competition and it's why no companies are able to buy shares back or pay dividends.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I'm not a fan of a lot of the fees that airlines impose--but then I also don't fly budget airlines or buy the cheapest tickets. Personally I'd probably be happier with a more premium flying experience and somewhat higher ticket prices--though not enough to routinely upgrade to business class. And I'm sure there are many people for whom air travel over Christmas to visit family is something of a luxury appreciate being able to spend less money.
infotogivenm 4y ago
Personally I’ve always seen them allow you to get up and relocate as soon as cabin doors closes. But yea, you didn’t pay for a seat assignment so you might get stuck where-ever. They’re pretty clear about this… Flown Frontier many dozens of times, since I usually travel alone with just a backpack. It’s probably saved me $5-10k in my adult life. Very often it will be $150+ less than the next cheapest option.
- jghn 4y ago
  Speaking of relocating, I don't love having to pay to pick one's seat, but IMO the larger problem are the customers who choose to don't pay and assume they can bully other passengers into moving. Yeah it sucks you have to pay for the privilege, but it's not the other passenger's responsibility to handle it for you.
fknorangesite 4y ago
> they will separate you and your party even if there are available seats together Airline seats are also assigned based on weight distribution. It's not just malice and greed.
qazxcvbnmlp 4y ago
Right now American seats basic economy in the middle seats and main in isle or windows. The system will try and seat family’s together if they are on the same reservation and the kids are under 15. So you’re best to pay for seats if you want to be together. However, if you pay for seats and they change your flight on you, those seats are ‘lost and you need to call for a refund.

ceejayoz 4y ago

Why would you not get your money back from an airline-initiated cancellation? I get giving up on delay compensation - I'm currently fighting travel insurance on an 18 hour delay that incured a hotel stay - but "we canceled your flight, but we're keeping your money" seems like a scenario where the airline clearly has no leg to stand on. Hell, do a credit card chargeback.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
We had flights cancelled — they gave us a "voucher", not our money back. The voucher apparently expires so we had to use it or lose it. Also, the voucher was only good for the ticketed passengers it affected, so we could not use it for one of our daughters, for example. Also, when we did try to use it we were told it was not valid for many of the seats/tickets we were trying to book. Where it was valid: upgraded (business class or first class) flights, flights with several layovers.... Such bullshit.
- jrockway 4y ago
  I think you just play the call to complain game there. They have to give you like for like; if you bought the flight with a voucher that expires, sure, refund it with a voucher that expires. But if you bought with cash, they should give you cash back. In my experience (at 800k lifetime miles at this point), the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you're not happy with something, call to complain.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    This. The voucher is always their first offer and they will claim it is all they can do. Keep pushing and they will refund your money in the same form of payment you used but they don't want you to know you have that right.
    - TedKroft 4y ago
      Yea but you have to commit to spending hours on hold with the expectation that they might not cave. I've gone back in forth with airlines before only to get nothing, it's not worth the time often. There should be some law that refunds (and many other business operations) should be automatic and can't be gatekept with several layers of phone systems, lies about only giving you a restricted voucher, and holds of more than X minutes.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

> major TSA delays. This infuriates me. Last week I was stuck in line for TSA for an hour and a half at Sea-Tac. The TSA clowns had one guy looking at the X-rays of luggage at the speed of molasses. Am I to believe that the TSA, FAA and airlines can't coordinate to determine when gluts of incoming passengers are expected? Bullshit. Why didn't they have more TSA workers on shift? Because they don't give a shit, nothing in the structure of the system gives the TSA an incentive to give a shit and do their job well. What do they care if people miss their flights? They don't, those smug pieces of shit don't care at all. They even have signs plastered all over their checkpoint threatening you with federal charges and huge fines if you "verbally abuse" the TSA workers. In this country it is legal for me to call a traffic cop a fascist pig, but I can't say the same to a TSA agent? I hate them so much.

FigurativeVoid 4y ago
I used to work in the same building as the TSA. They were some of the rudest people I have ever been around. They would smoke in the stairwells and literally anywhere other than the smoking areas. They have the same problem as BMVs, they have literally no incentive to improve. There is no competition.
- mcculley 4y ago
  And now they are like other bad organizations (e.g., police departments that have a history of shooting unarmed people) in the respect that nobody wants to be associated with them, so they can only recruit from the bottom.
  - FigurativeVoid 4y ago
    They also don't get paid when we have budget legislation. Who would want to work in a place like that?
    - banannaise 4y ago
      Paying more for a job already designed to attract terrible people will still attract the same terrible people, it will just make them richer. Again, see police departments. You can see a different sort of example in teaching: teachers put up with terrible pay for a long time, but now they're quitting in droves because of terrible work conditions and lack of emotional fulfillment. You have to change the nature of the job from something designed around theater and blustering to something actually useful. The pay is never the problem, it's that the jobs are bullshit. Although once the jobs are no longer bullshit, we should probably pay them better.

wellareyousure 4y ago

Southwest also advertises many more flights than it plans to actually fly. Like if there's no penalty for a less than 2 hour adjustment, why not advertise flights every hour, and then regroup people day of? Or send them to Oakland instead of San Francisco, day of?

infotogivenm 4y ago

Probably flight crew resourcing issues. Incredibly common on all airlines lately unfortunately, this year I’ve had it happen on American (twice!) and United, but surprisingly not Frontier yet. United at least let me know before I went to the airport.

germandiago 4y ago

I would be happier if they gave back that money to customers directly. If the airlines do not do it, let the govt. do it after they pay the fine. However, what happens is that they put a fine and later they spend the money however they decide. It is funny. :)