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Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach wher

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to study CS for fall 2023. We live in a highly competitive school district. He's hardworking and studious, as reflected in his 4.0 GPA and perfect 1600 SAT score (thankfully, some schools like MIT have brought back the SAT.) He has always taken the hardest possible AP and college-level classes and has strong extracurriculars. In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Our school counselor and other parents we've have spoken with have flat-out advised us to: Apply to more lower-tier schools. Amongst the elites, target "hard STEM" schools like MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, where he’s more likely to get a fair shot (Asians are 40+% of the incoming class at these places.) Forget the Ivies — the last thing they want is “another smart Indian male” (the counselor's words, not mine.) You see, that won’t help with “diversity.” Also — we use a system called Collegevine to keep track of applications. Applicants can input their GPA, SAT scores, extracurriculars etc. to understand their acceptance rate at specific universities based on historical data. For my son, keeping everything else the same but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances of getting in at the above elite schools from 4-8% to 60+%. I am not making this up — you can test this yourself. Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student?

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systemvoltage 4y ago
Vote accordingly. I know many Indian-Americans who do not jive with the Democratic party even in progressive places like California. The system is stacked against them and hard-work / perseverence can only go so far when you need to dodge systemic racism (literally, that's what AA is) that benefits one group over the other based on skin pigmentation. Asian immigrant class of US is probably the most inspiring story of the American Dream.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Most asians will resign themselves to their low rung in the BIPOC hierarchy and keep voting Democrat--against their self interest--because they won't be able to bring themselves to vote with "country people" in the GOP who didn't go to college.
thejman5200 4y ago
I would add that those CollegeVine calculators (and any acceptance rate calculator) are not based on any real data - extracurriculars really make or break applications at top schools when every applicant is in the 95th percentile. You can't really use that as data, although a lot of the data sets for top schools do support those acceptance rates you mention. If your child's school uses Naviance, that is a far more useful tool in my opinion for looking at acceptance rates since it takes data from your school district.
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  @thejman5200 That used to be the case, but for the last 2 years, CollegeVine's chancing calculator is pretty close (+/- 4%) to the real acceptance rates (https://www.collegevine.com/admissions-calculator https://www.collegevine.com/admissions-calculator) Our HS uses both CollegeVine and Naviance. FWIW, Naviance shows my kid's chances ~2% higher on average.
rr808 4y ago
> Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? No its not fair which is why its controversial. The real problem is that famous schools are too prestigious right now and there aren't enough of them. Perhaps over time the newer schools who accept all the smart, hardworking students will become recognized for having the best grads.
- josh_fyi 4y ago
  City University of New York had an incredible line up of world-class genius graduates, because they took the Jews who were excluded by the Ivies. For some reason that never translated to prestige status for the university.
- Jetrel 4y ago
  At this point, I don't think much of famous schools, and might even find them a -minus- on hiring criterion. I'd be much more likely to hire someone from a tier-2 school who doesn't have any of the negative baggage — the wealth and "connections" are kind of a big risk factor to my mind.
  - rswskg 4y ago
    Same. I've had two oxford graduates completely crumble in interviews recently who then dared bring it up after flunking the test. That they both did it says alot to me.
nradov 4y ago
Since race is a social construct with no objective definition, your son can select whichever value he likes in the race field without legal penalty. Or just leave it blank.
- worik 4y ago
  > Since race is a social construct with no objective definition That does not mean it is not a thing.
  - postsantum 4y ago
    If you suffer no consequences from lying then it's not a thing
zhoujianfu 4y ago
I just wanna say… apply to Harvey Mudd! Way better than those ivies anyway!
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  We're definitely applying there! Someone asked why he has to apply to elite STEM schools -- he will get a great education anywhere. That may be true, but he's one of those kids who love to be surrounded by people smarter than him and be inspired by them. It's weird but the harder the class, the more fun he seems to have. He wants to be challenged in college. He will thrive at Mudd.
  - shaklee3 4y ago
    the problem with HM is the population is so small that it's insignificant compared to the other schools. it's much more impacted, so even if their numbers align more with what you want, there are only a few hundred spots
pmonks 4y ago
What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates. [edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian
- ams92 4y ago
  The top ranked schools only help with getting your first job, and that's only if you want to work in big tech. Unlike some other industries, you can over compensate by networking or doing side projects if you don't have a high pedigree degree.
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I know he will get a fantastic education at most schools. But he truly is a special kid who gets inspired by super smart people and thrives on challenges, and will do better at Cal, Caltech, Harvey Mudd etc. We're not looking at non-STEM schools and Ivies -- I guess they don't want us and we don't want them.
  - pmonks 4y ago
    My point is that he’ll be surrounded by super smart people giving him real challenges at many schools beyond the ones you’ve listed.
    - light_hue_1 4y ago
      There is a massive gap between top schools and middle schools in terms of the quality of education, the connections you make, and the opportunities you get. The density of smart people is far higher at those top schools he mentioned. Downplaying that doesn't do anything for anyone.
      - JamesianP 4y ago
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pauljurczak 4y ago
Setting aside an obvious problem with AA, if your son is really interested in CS, MIT or Caltech will serve him better than any Ivy League establishment nursery.
the_cat_kittles 4y ago
its all about you and your son apparently?
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  You're totally missing the point. If it's happening to me, it's happening to many thousands of other families too, and it's not OK.
- latency-guy2 4y ago
  Why not? His son appears to have put forth the effort and sacrificed plenty, far more than 99% of students, and looks like his son has the smarts and grit for it as well. This should be about these people in this world. Why are you making it out like it isn't? This is quite literally THE subject. Why is his son being penalized for his skin color? There is no logical stance for Affirmative Action as it currently stands without admitting that you are for racist policies.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Racism by definition in the English language asserts racial superiority of one race over another. A policy being race aware isn’t necessarily asserting any form of superiority, and is therefore by definition not racist. I realize people want to use the word “racist” because it implies something bad being done related to race, but they fail to realize that the “bad” of racism is racial supremacy - not the “race” part.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Injustice tends to work on personal level. Would you happily sacrifice your son's wellbeing for the Greater Good, or whatever some talking heads say that the Greater Good is? In that case, think hard about yourself, because you just might be sliding into fanaticism, or that kind of suckership that keeps tyrants afloat and fills their armies with cannon fodder since time immemorial.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Let's talk numbers, then. How many cases like this would you consider an acceptable price to pay for the sake of remedying other discrimination?
csa 4y ago
> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applicant in a way that does not reflect a successful applicant (“another smart Indian male” or otherwise). I assure you that Harvard and Stanford reject approximately zero “strong admit” applicants. Your son, based on what you have stated here, is not a strong admit applicant. 1. In academics, has your son done anything impressive at a national or international level? Think Westinghouse award, international science fair, or something similar. If not, has he published any academic papers (co-author ok)? 2. In sports, is your son a recruited athlete? Is he a HS varsity athlete who is competitive enough to compete at the university level? If so, has he expressed interest to the school and in the application? 3. In arts, has your son won a spot in a regional or national arts group (like youth symphony), or has he won a regional, national, or international arts competition? 4. In leadership/community, has your son started a successful business or group that has accomplished something meaningful? 5. In terms of non-racial diversity, is your son in a state and school that is under-represented in elite schools? We know that this answer is “no”, and quite the contrary, his school is probably highly-represented, so the school has a ballpark quota (range, not an absolute number). This is probably why his counselors have a good idea where he is in the school pecking order for school references. Check out this article: https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-students-get-accepted-ivy-league- https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-st... Focus on #3. What is your son’s hook? > but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances of getting in at the above elite schools from 4-8% to 60+% Well, I am guessing that those numbers are correct, but I think that some of the story is being left out. Some (many?) black or Hispanic students with your son’s profile will be actively courted by organizations that will give them the experience they need to stand out (their “hook”). This may exist for Indian-Americans as well (I have no idea), but that wasn’t really reflected in anything you wrote. Anyway, most if not all of the black and hispanic undergrads I’ve met at ivies have had a very compelling hook, typically in leadership or sports (iirc, 20% of Harvard’s entering class are varsity athletes, and maybe half of those are recruited, so sports being their “hook” is not rare). > Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? He is being “penalized” for having too narrow of a focus. That focus may work in some elite schools that have an all or nothing admissions exam (like some schools in India, Japan, China, etc.), but that type of focus is too narrow for many elite US universities. The Ivies plus Stanford could fill their classes many times over with students who are very comparable to your son in terms of grades and SAT scores. They are looking for something more (the hook). If the guidance counselors at your son’s school didn’t share that with him or you early in his high school career, then that’s really on them. They should know better assuming that they knew he had ambitions for an elite school.
mythhouse 4y ago
- worik 4y ago
  >> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us >I hate this Strong words. You do not know their struggles, or their stories (beyond one fact and one assumption). Better to use weak words, because you are in a weak position
  - mythhouse 4y ago
    Yes i can only go by what was written in the comment. > You do not know their struggles, or their stories By your logic no one can respond to anything because no one will know the commenters life story.
    - kichimi 4y ago
      Don't be obtuse, you can respond with questions.
    - JamesianP 4y ago
      If no one ever responded to anything the way you did it would be an improvement. I don't think Indian education is noticeably better than other developing countries anyway. Much less poor regions of the US. Especially India a generation ago.
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  You don't know me, writing about high caste and whatnot. I remember having $30 in the bank, sleeping in my car in Detroit, and being awakened by gunshots near Wayne State Univ. The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days. I forgive you since you wrote out of ignorance.
  - maslam 4y ago
    Well written and kind response. Thank you for doing this. We could use a bit more of this on HN.
Tozen 4y ago
> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic. The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women. White Women and Affirmative Action https://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/03/11/white-women-affirmative-action/ https://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/03/11/white-women-aff... White women benefit most from affirmative action https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-... > My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars... That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India and were able to take advantage of the opportunity. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The original purpose of affirmative action, was to help those that were being actively and consistently discriminated against. As a more recent immigrant, you are benefiting from laws and polices, which are the result of historical issues, court battles, and actual battles in America. Many Americans fought, died, and were jailed to get laws changed. The context of why affirmative action was created, should not be skipped over, as if it applies simply to one person's situation and benefit. That you don't need something, is great for your situation, but that doesn't mean that's true for other ethnic groups and their situations. "Affirmative action laws are policies instituted by the government to help level the playing field for those historically disadvantaged due to factors such as race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. These laws typically pertain to equal opportunities in employment, education, and business." What is Affirmative Action and Why Was it Created? https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-affirmative-action-and-why-was-it-created-31524 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-affirmative-action... > For my son, keeping everything else the same but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances... That's gaming the system, for personal benefits, and contrary to the purposes for which affirmative action was created. That would be like a guy saying that if he writes down he's a different gender, he can now cheat his way into getting something he should not (by pretending to be female). If anything, you should arguably be against people falsifying documents or trying to present themselves as something they are not.
nanidin 4y ago
If I were a college application reviewer, I would filter for helicopter parents in an attempt to find kids genuinely seeking education as opposed to parents pushing their kids to unhappy places.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And I would only look at test scroes like SAT. Nothing else. Maybe few exceptions on relevant competitions like math olympics medalists.
  - pmonks 4y ago
    Yeah that’s a terrible approach. All you’d get are kids who are good at testing and nothing else.
    - momo_O 4y ago
      Or kids whose parents could afford a prep course or private tutoring.
    - JamesianP 4y ago
      Where do you think grades come from? Standardized tests are better because they are standardized (of course), and more fundamental to get at basic problem solving and reading comprehension. I would argue it is impossible to be good at testing and nothing else. Even with a relatively poorly-designed test, there are valuable skills needed to be "good at it". and the current standardized tests have years of development and constant updating behind them.
      - pmonks 4y ago
        Sure but grades aren’t all that indicative of anything in the real world. Some of the worst hires I’ve made were graduates who, on paper, should have been outstanding ICs.
        4y ago
rayiner 4y ago
When the Supreme Court strikes down legalized discrimination against asians, I hope you remember who put those judges there. Politics is about people voting in their self interest. If you're Asian, that calculus is simple. Trump might be boorish and say mean things, but his side wants to maintain a system that has worked extraordinarily well for Asians. Poor Asian kids have more than double the income mobility of poor white kids. Vietnamese people came to Reagan’s america in poverty, and closed the gap within a generation. The numbers are irrefutable. Sure, the other side will make an elaborate show of learning how to pronounce your name. But they want to create a system where your kids (and my kids) will be left holding the short end of the stick simply because they're "not the right kind of diversity." Just consider the phrase they love to use "BIPOC." Non-white people all lumped together, our distinctions erased, except for two groups listed as "first among equals." They are telling you who they are, believe them! And don't think for a second it will stop at college admissions: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-affirmative-action-had-to-go https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-affirmative-action-had.... In Kamala Harris’s America, Asians will be 7% of the engineers at Google and Facebook, instead of 40%. That’s “equity.”
- erenyeager 4y ago
  - prottog 4y ago
    > Most of the geographical US has places where non-white people basically feel not welcome. I'm a visibly non-white immigrant who has lived in a few different states and driven through most, including some very remote areas. I currently live in a Deep South state. I have not felt unwelcome anywhere in this country, nor have I felt more welcome in stereotypically liberal areas compared to stereotypically conservative areas. No doubt pockets of genuine racism exists, but both at a population level or square miles of land level, such pockets are in the tiny minority. I fear you are exaggerating the level of antipathy against non-white people amongst the so-called "Trump-voting types". Demand for racism in this country greatly outstrips the supply of it.
  - rayiner 4y ago
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ro_bit 4y ago
> Berkeley If it makes you feel better, public California colleges cannot employ affirmative action as documented by https://ballotpedia.org/Affirmative_action_in_California https://ballotpedia.org/Affirmative_action_in_California, so your son's chances in the UC system should be unaffected by race based quotas. Best of luck to your son on college admissions. Having recently gone through that myself, it's a hell of an undertaking.
TomSwirly 4y ago
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  But he didn't have anything to do with that. It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul!
chengiz 4y ago
> We're far from privileged. Indian-American father here as well. You came to the US from India. You are probably upper caste. You almost certainly got a good quality education in India for cheap. Your parents probably had servants. You are privileged. End of story.
- deleted 4y ago
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- strikelaserclaw 4y ago
  not to mention he must have come here 20+ years ago for an education, back then it was even rarer for an indian to come to us to study.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Bangladeshi-American father here. “Privileged” compared to who? It would be one thing if Ivy League universities accepted Appalachians and rural Georgians stuck in generational poverty. Ironically, people like Clarence Thomas—minorities who grew up in real poverty—are not the main target of AA. The whole reason this is a problem here is that these policies aren’t actually based on privilege. It’s racial gerrymandering—seeking privileged people from overall disadvantaged groups.
  - chengiz 4y ago
    Privileged compared to most around him? I'm not comparing OP to the Kennedys but just because he came to the US with a few hundred bucks and worked hard does not mean he is not privileged. The generational poverty thing is a disingenous distraction. Hypercompetitive environments like the bay area is rife with OP-like cases, the parents go after the boxes to check to get into the top schools, the kids check them. OP's son worked hard and will almost certainly go to a good school, but... Sharma's son went to MIT! All that has happened is that the gaming Indian parents do doesnt work as well as it once did because others wised up to it. I see nothing wrong with promoting someone who has "unforced" talent, and in some cases race may be a poor way in some cases to base that upon, but in general it is not so bad. The real tragedy is that the most unfair thing these colleges do, which the article mentions, legacy admissions, gets a pass in all the AA talk.
notlukesky 4y ago
It's interesting that Mike Burry of the Big Short fame just did a post on this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/michaeljburry/status/1587420720644214799 https://twitter.com/michaeljburry/status/1587420720644214799 The post is this since he famously deletes all his Twitter posts: If you are denying or justifying discrimination against Asian applicants for colleges or jobs, you know exactly how all the most oppressive racists of the past felt. -- By the way did you ever consider having your child apply to schooling in other countries that are purely exam and test based and somehow produce the engineers that FAANG companies love to hire? The education in those countries are almost free compared to the US and they graduate with minimal or zero debt and get hired for very high salaries by FAANG companies. Just look at the number of foreigners at FAANG companies with undergraduate STEM degrees from the rest of the world. They often do a masters or PHD (for free usually with TA or RA responsibilities) to get acclimated to the US and its nuances which your child does not need.
- sbierwagen 4y ago
  Presumably it's in reference to the case against Harvard currently before the Supreme Court: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/1131789230/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/1131789230/supreme-court-affi... Among other things, Harvard is accused of adding a "personality" metric to admissions, covering likeability and attractiveness, and consistently scoring Asians low on it, to cancel out less important things like GPA, AP credits and SAT scores. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/harvard-admissions-asian-american https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/harvard-admissions-a...
grog454 4y ago
> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. Define privileged. You came to the U.S. which means you had the means and impetus to do so. Doesn't that already put in the top 50th percentile of world population? 50 is wild speculation on my part and it could be higher or lower. I'm almost positive you are more privileged than someone born into a modern indigenous South American or African community. But what does it even matter? "Privileged" is completely relative and irrelevant because anyone who makes it past about the age of 18 is in some sense fortunate. > Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? No. You're son will have to overcome unfair and unfortunate circumstances just like you did. Hopefully he has been prepared to do so.
- speakfreely 4y ago
  It's odd that the focus of your post is mainly an analysis of whether he is privileged enough to ignore the injustices against his son. All of us have to overcome adversity, but waving the "life is not fair" wand at unjust practices is less useful than advocating for change to a more fair system.
RickJWagner 4y ago
It is not fair to penalize your son. The system needs adjustment. Thank you for coming to America and for raising your family here. We are collectively richer for it.
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  Your comment went straight to my heart. Thank you.
felix_n 4y ago
As long as we're talking about fair, is it fair that your son, who was given every possible advantage by his well-educated and affluent parents, is graded on the same blind rubric as a kid whose father is a felon for possessing a couple ounces of marijuana and whose mother has to work 3 shitty retail jobs? Wouldn't it be reasonable to argue that the second kid getting, say, a nearly (but not quite) perfect SAT score and a 3.9 GPA is at least as impressive, or arguably more impressive, than your little darling keeping his train on the tracks that you and your wife have laid out for him?
- rayiner 4y ago
  That’s an argument for basing admissions decisions on economic status not race.
- RigelKentaurus 4y ago
  >is it fair that your son, who was given every possible advantage by his well-educated and affluent parents, is graded on the same blind rubric as a kid whose father is a felon for possessing a couple ounces of marijuana and whose mother has to work 3 shitty retail jobs? That's the exact case I made. The kid with the absentee father has worked hard, and deserves to be helped. But it's independent of race. >little darling keeping his train on the tracks that you and your wife have laid out for him I caught the condescending tone here. We live in a good, safe school district but nothing else has been laid out for him. He found all the APs, college courses, internships and applied on his own. The one thing he's not is an entitled, spoilt brat -- he's the exact opposite who takes nothing for granted and works very hard to make full use of his opportunities. It's sad that some people can't see the difference.
  - speakfreely 4y ago
    > It's sad that some people can't see the difference Some people don't want to. There's an entire political movement devoted to removing individuality from the equation and seeing people only as oppressed or oppressor races. The heroes and villains are conveniently identifiable by their appearances and any details or personal history deviations from the storyline are disregarded.
erenyeager 4y ago
Ostensibly to you it isn’t “fair” in the way you have described it. But from a different view, your son is very privileged to be in the position he is, I’m sure he will do well wherever he goes for school. You’re in the South Bay bubble that has put so much hype and pressure on these things. Of course, education is important to you as a cultural value and practical matter; but consider that students who are capable can even flourish better in, for example, the community college setting for a few years before transferring (also more financially savvy). Anyways affirmative action for mostly white people (“legacy admits”) already exists. Removing AA based on race may not result in great outcomes for the underrepresented minorities. Huge disparities exist that cannot be corrected at the university level in entirely; but AA gives the opportunity for URMs to enter these spaces at higher rates than they would at a so called “level” playing field (it is never is the problem). It’s time to start considering that there is far more to life than what “elite” colleges will have people believe.
- JamesianP 4y ago
  Anyone who gets into a top tier school, by preference, legacy, or whatever, is already on a course to do well. They could have settled for the 2nd tier just as well. The different perspective you are referring to is groups versus individuals. to the degree that they differ, whatever is most fair for one will be less fair for the other. It is objectively true that a group preference will be unfair on an individual level to some people. For example, on an individual basis, legacy admits only benefit legacy applicants. Yet you're using this argument to support penalizing people who are not legacy applicants.
- jlkuester7 4y ago
  Side point, but I wonder if how many people who are opposed to AA are actually in favor of "legacy admits". Both smell very fishy to me. (No clear academic motive for either....)
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smcg 4y ago
I can't tell if these counselors are giving bad advice or the college admissions landscape really is that competitive now compared to 15 years ago. 4.0 and 1600 are perfect scores and trivially, higher than the average scores of admitted students, let alone all applicants. Every applicant needs stuff on their application besides academics as well, so try to stand out there. They look for unique talents. If they believe that someone is the best X at Y niche that the admissions team likes them they're getting in no matter what. Also... these schools admit a number of Indian-American males every year. Your son does have a chance. Unfortunately the competition is higher for him due to these unfair rules.
onetimeusename 4y ago
I have mixed feelings about this. The issue is that there aren't enough elite seats, maybe applying to those schools is a good idea because it starts to create more elite seats. I seriously doubt there would be a serious detriment to your son's education for going to Harvey Mudd for example. I think that the subtext here is the brand name of Stanford and MIT and the Ivies is very desirable and this is less about education. The brand is real though. Those top tier schools are gateways to power and money. I read through the law suit made against Harvard and other schools and it blames white people, not affirmative action in general. It compares the test scores of white people against Asians and argues that there should be fewer white people. The % of Harvard that is white is 33%. The % of the US is 57.5%. Whites are being shut out of the premier gateways to power in the US. I think AA based on race makes sense in some way because of what these schools mean in reality. It's not just about education. The test score gap between Asians and whites is not even very broad. So on the one hand, I think all this focus on race is detrimental to life if we use it to judge the most elite people in the country. On the other hand, I think this lawsuit is just more squabbling between races to be the #1. This is a fight about prestige and power and not education, at least in my opinion.
strikelaserclaw 4y ago
My father also came to this country with nothing and built himself up, but as someone else mentioned, my father was born in a high caste, he got an education to become an engineer when most people didn't even complete secondary school. There is something to be said about generations of cultural knowledge and success that makes you rise up from "temporary poverty". This is true of most of my family, due to a bad generation of parents they became poor but they used to be pretty wealth a couple generations ago, this is a stark difference in attitude from people who've always been in multi generational poverty, they don't know any succesful people, they don't have any role models, the color of their skin / caste makes them not confident in their abilities to succeed, realistically those people are the ones who need affirmative action. i'm sure your kid is smart enough to succeed in this world even if he went to berkeley instead of stanford.
eloff 4y ago
It's not fair, and it's messed up in my opinion. But then I'm an engineer and I highly value meritocracy over everything else. Other people have different values, like racial diversity, whatever they think that means. I think they're idiots, but they think I'm racist. Unfortunately for you and me, the "idiots" are currently running the show.
Puradolia 4y ago
I suggest, if you can afford it, to try go for a European university. There's great ones in Germany, Netherlands, England, Ireland (my home)

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systemvoltage 4y ago

Vote accordingly. I know many Indian-Americans who do not jive with the Democratic party even in progressive places like California. The system is stacked against them and hard-work / perseverence can only go so far when you need to dodge systemic racism (literally, that's what AA is) that benefits one group over the other based on skin pigmentation. Asian immigrant class of US is probably the most inspiring story of the American Dream.

rayiner 4y ago
Most asians will resign themselves to their low rung in the BIPOC hierarchy and keep voting Democrat--against their self interest--because they won't be able to bring themselves to vote with "country people" in the GOP who didn't go to college.

thejman5200 4y ago

I would add that those CollegeVine calculators (and any acceptance rate calculator) are not based on any real data - extracurriculars really make or break applications at top schools when every applicant is in the 95th percentile. You can't really use that as data, although a lot of the data sets for top schools do support those acceptance rates you mention. If your child's school uses Naviance, that is a far more useful tool in my opinion for looking at acceptance rates since it takes data from your school district.

RigelKentaurus 4y ago
@thejman5200 That used to be the case, but for the last 2 years, CollegeVine's chancing calculator is pretty close (+/- 4%) to the real acceptance rates (https://www.collegevine.com/admissions-calculator https://www.collegevine.com/admissions-calculator) Our HS uses both CollegeVine and Naviance. FWIW, Naviance shows my kid's chances ~2% higher on average.

rr808 4y ago

> Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? No its not fair which is why its controversial. The real problem is that famous schools are too prestigious right now and there aren't enough of them. Perhaps over time the newer schools who accept all the smart, hardworking students will become recognized for having the best grads.

josh_fyi 4y ago
City University of New York had an incredible line up of world-class genius graduates, because they took the Jews who were excluded by the Ivies. For some reason that never translated to prestige status for the university.
Jetrel 4y ago
At this point, I don't think much of famous schools, and might even find them a -minus- on hiring criterion. I'd be much more likely to hire someone from a tier-2 school who doesn't have any of the negative baggage — the wealth and "connections" are kind of a big risk factor to my mind.
- rswskg 4y ago
  Same. I've had two oxford graduates completely crumble in interviews recently who then dared bring it up after flunking the test. That they both did it says alot to me.

nradov 4y ago

Since race is a social construct with no objective definition, your son can select whichever value he likes in the race field without legal penalty. Or just leave it blank.

worik 4y ago
> Since race is a social construct with no objective definition That does not mean it is not a thing.
- postsantum 4y ago
  If you suffer no consequences from lying then it's not a thing

zhoujianfu 4y ago

I just wanna say… apply to Harvey Mudd! Way better than those ivies anyway!

RigelKentaurus 4y ago
We're definitely applying there! Someone asked why he has to apply to elite STEM schools -- he will get a great education anywhere. That may be true, but he's one of those kids who love to be surrounded by people smarter than him and be inspired by them. It's weird but the harder the class, the more fun he seems to have. He wants to be challenged in college. He will thrive at Mudd.
- shaklee3 4y ago
  the problem with HM is the population is so small that it's insignificant compared to the other schools. it's much more impacted, so even if their numbers align more with what you want, there are only a few hundred spots

pmonks 4y ago

What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates. [edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian

ams92 4y ago
The top ranked schools only help with getting your first job, and that's only if you want to work in big tech. Unlike some other industries, you can over compensate by networking or doing side projects if you don't have a high pedigree degree.
RigelKentaurus 4y ago
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I know he will get a fantastic education at most schools. But he truly is a special kid who gets inspired by super smart people and thrives on challenges, and will do better at Cal, Caltech, Harvey Mudd etc. We're not looking at non-STEM schools and Ivies -- I guess they don't want us and we don't want them.
- pmonks 4y ago
  My point is that he’ll be surrounded by super smart people giving him real challenges at many schools beyond the ones you’ve listed.
  - light_hue_1 4y ago
    There is a massive gap between top schools and middle schools in terms of the quality of education, the connections you make, and the opportunities you get. The density of smart people is far higher at those top schools he mentioned. Downplaying that doesn't do anything for anyone.
    - JamesianP 4y ago

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pauljurczak 4y ago

Setting aside an obvious problem with AA, if your son is really interested in CS, MIT or Caltech will serve him better than any Ivy League establishment nursery.

the_cat_kittles 4y ago

its all about you and your son apparently?

RigelKentaurus 4y ago
You're totally missing the point. If it's happening to me, it's happening to many thousands of other families too, and it's not OK.
latency-guy2 4y ago
Why not? His son appears to have put forth the effort and sacrificed plenty, far more than 99% of students, and looks like his son has the smarts and grit for it as well. This should be about these people in this world. Why are you making it out like it isn't? This is quite literally THE subject. Why is his son being penalized for his skin color? There is no logical stance for Affirmative Action as it currently stands without admitting that you are for racist policies.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Racism by definition in the English language asserts racial superiority of one race over another. A policy being race aware isn’t necessarily asserting any form of superiority, and is therefore by definition not racist. I realize people want to use the word “racist” because it implies something bad being done related to race, but they fail to realize that the “bad” of racism is racial supremacy - not the “race” part.
inglor_cz 4y ago
Injustice tends to work on personal level. Would you happily sacrifice your son's wellbeing for the Greater Good, or whatever some talking heads say that the Greater Good is? In that case, think hard about yourself, because you just might be sliding into fanaticism, or that kind of suckership that keeps tyrants afloat and fills their armies with cannon fodder since time immemorial.
int_19h 4y ago
Let's talk numbers, then. How many cases like this would you consider an acceptable price to pay for the sake of remedying other discrimination?

csa 4y ago

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applicant in a way that does not reflect a successful applicant (“another smart Indian male” or otherwise). I assure you that Harvard and Stanford reject approximately zero “strong admit” applicants. Your son, based on what you have stated here, is not a strong admit applicant. 1. In academics, has your son done anything impressive at a national or international level? Think Westinghouse award, international science fair, or something similar. If not, has he published any academic papers (co-author ok)? 2. In sports, is your son a recruited athlete? Is he a HS varsity athlete who is competitive enough to compete at the university level? If so, has he expressed interest to the school and in the application? 3. In arts, has your son won a spot in a regional or national arts group (like youth symphony), or has he won a regional, national, or international arts competition? 4. In leadership/community, has your son started a successful business or group that has accomplished something meaningful? 5. In terms of non-racial diversity, is your son in a state and school that is under-represented in elite schools? We know that this answer is “no”, and quite the contrary, his school is probably highly-represented, so the school has a ballpark quota (range, not an absolute number). This is probably why his counselors have a good idea where he is in the school pecking order for school references. Check out this article: https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-students-get-accepted-ivy-league- https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-st... Focus on #3. What is your son’s hook? > but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances of getting in at the above elite schools from 4-8% to 60+% Well, I am guessing that those numbers are correct, but I think that some of the story is being left out. Some (many?) black or Hispanic students with your son’s profile will be actively courted by organizations that will give them the experience they need to stand out (their “hook”). This may exist for Indian-Americans as well (I have no idea), but that wasn’t really reflected in anything you wrote. Anyway, most if not all of the black and hispanic undergrads I’ve met at ivies have had a very compelling hook, typically in leadership or sports (iirc, 20% of Harvard’s entering class are varsity athletes, and maybe half of those are recruited, so sports being their “hook” is not rare). > Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? He is being “penalized” for having too narrow of a focus. That focus may work in some elite schools that have an all or nothing admissions exam (like some schools in India, Japan, China, etc.), but that type of focus is too narrow for many elite US universities. The Ivies plus Stanford could fill their classes many times over with students who are very comparable to your son in terms of grades and SAT scores. They are looking for something more (the hook). If the guidance counselors at your son’s school didn’t share that with him or you early in his high school career, then that’s really on them. They should know better assuming that they knew he had ambitions for an elite school.

mythhouse 4y ago

worik 4y ago
>> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us >I hate this Strong words. You do not know their struggles, or their stories (beyond one fact and one assumption). Better to use weak words, because you are in a weak position
- mythhouse 4y ago
  Yes i can only go by what was written in the comment. > You do not know their struggles, or their stories By your logic no one can respond to anything because no one will know the commenters life story.
  - kichimi 4y ago
    Don't be obtuse, you can respond with questions.
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    If no one ever responded to anything the way you did it would be an improvement. I don't think Indian education is noticeably better than other developing countries anyway. Much less poor regions of the US. Especially India a generation ago.
RigelKentaurus 4y ago
You don't know me, writing about high caste and whatnot. I remember having $30 in the bank, sleeping in my car in Detroit, and being awakened by gunshots near Wayne State Univ. The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days. I forgive you since you wrote out of ignorance.
- maslam 4y ago
  Well written and kind response. Thank you for doing this. We could use a bit more of this on HN.

Tozen 4y ago

> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic. The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women. White Women and Affirmative Action https://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/03/11/white-women-affirmative-action/ https://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/03/11/white-women-aff... White women benefit most from affirmative action https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-... > My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars... That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India and were able to take advantage of the opportunity. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The original purpose of affirmative action, was to help those that were being actively and consistently discriminated against. As a more recent immigrant, you are benefiting from laws and polices, which are the result of historical issues, court battles, and actual battles in America. Many Americans fought, died, and were jailed to get laws changed. The context of why affirmative action was created, should not be skipped over, as if it applies simply to one person's situation and benefit. That you don't need something, is great for your situation, but that doesn't mean that's true for other ethnic groups and their situations. "Affirmative action laws are policies instituted by the government to help level the playing field for those historically disadvantaged due to factors such as race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. These laws typically pertain to equal opportunities in employment, education, and business." What is Affirmative Action and Why Was it Created? https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-affirmative-action-and-why-was-it-created-31524 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-affirmative-action... > For my son, keeping everything else the same but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances... That's gaming the system, for personal benefits, and contrary to the purposes for which affirmative action was created. That would be like a guy saying that if he writes down he's a different gender, he can now cheat his way into getting something he should not (by pretending to be female). If anything, you should arguably be against people falsifying documents or trying to present themselves as something they are not.

nanidin 4y ago

If I were a college application reviewer, I would filter for helicopter parents in an attempt to find kids genuinely seeking education as opposed to parents pushing their kids to unhappy places.

Ekaros 4y ago
And I would only look at test scroes like SAT. Nothing else. Maybe few exceptions on relevant competitions like math olympics medalists.
- pmonks 4y ago
  Yeah that’s a terrible approach. All you’d get are kids who are good at testing and nothing else.
  - momo_O 4y ago
    Or kids whose parents could afford a prep course or private tutoring.
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    Where do you think grades come from? Standardized tests are better because they are standardized (of course), and more fundamental to get at basic problem solving and reading comprehension. I would argue it is impossible to be good at testing and nothing else. Even with a relatively poorly-designed test, there are valuable skills needed to be "good at it". and the current standardized tests have years of development and constant updating behind them.
    - pmonks 4y ago
      Sure but grades aren’t all that indicative of anything in the real world. Some of the worst hires I’ve made were graduates who, on paper, should have been outstanding ICs.
      - 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

When the Supreme Court strikes down legalized discrimination against asians, I hope you remember who put those judges there. Politics is about people voting in their self interest. If you're Asian, that calculus is simple. Trump might be boorish and say mean things, but his side wants to maintain a system that has worked extraordinarily well for Asians. Poor Asian kids have more than double the income mobility of poor white kids. Vietnamese people came to Reagan’s america in poverty, and closed the gap within a generation. The numbers are irrefutable. Sure, the other side will make an elaborate show of learning how to pronounce your name. But they want to create a system where your kids (and my kids) will be left holding the short end of the stick simply because they're "not the right kind of diversity." Just consider the phrase they love to use "BIPOC." Non-white people all lumped together, our distinctions erased, except for two groups listed as "first among equals." They are telling you who they are, believe them! And don't think for a second it will stop at college admissions: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-affirmative-action-had-to-go https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-affirmative-action-had.... In Kamala Harris’s America, Asians will be 7% of the engineers at Google and Facebook, instead of 40%. That’s “equity.”

erenyeager 4y ago
- prottog 4y ago
  > Most of the geographical US has places where non-white people basically feel not welcome. I'm a visibly non-white immigrant who has lived in a few different states and driven through most, including some very remote areas. I currently live in a Deep South state. I have not felt unwelcome anywhere in this country, nor have I felt more welcome in stereotypically liberal areas compared to stereotypically conservative areas. No doubt pockets of genuine racism exists, but both at a population level or square miles of land level, such pockets are in the tiny minority. I fear you are exaggerating the level of antipathy against non-white people amongst the so-called "Trump-voting types". Demand for racism in this country greatly outstrips the supply of it.
- rayiner 4y ago

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ro_bit 4y ago

> Berkeley If it makes you feel better, public California colleges cannot employ affirmative action as documented by https://ballotpedia.org/Affirmative_action_in_California https://ballotpedia.org/Affirmative_action_in_California, so your son's chances in the UC system should be unaffected by race based quotas. Best of luck to your son on college admissions. Having recently gone through that myself, it's a hell of an undertaking.

TomSwirly 4y ago

cuteboy19 4y ago
But he didn't have anything to do with that. It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul!

chengiz 4y ago

> We're far from privileged. Indian-American father here as well. You came to the US from India. You are probably upper caste. You almost certainly got a good quality education in India for cheap. Your parents probably had servants. You are privileged. End of story.

deleted 4y ago
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strikelaserclaw 4y ago
not to mention he must have come here 20+ years ago for an education, back then it was even rarer for an indian to come to us to study.
rayiner 4y ago
Bangladeshi-American father here. “Privileged” compared to who? It would be one thing if Ivy League universities accepted Appalachians and rural Georgians stuck in generational poverty. Ironically, people like Clarence Thomas—minorities who grew up in real poverty—are not the main target of AA. The whole reason this is a problem here is that these policies aren’t actually based on privilege. It’s racial gerrymandering—seeking privileged people from overall disadvantaged groups.
- chengiz 4y ago
  Privileged compared to most around him? I'm not comparing OP to the Kennedys but just because he came to the US with a few hundred bucks and worked hard does not mean he is not privileged. The generational poverty thing is a disingenous distraction. Hypercompetitive environments like the bay area is rife with OP-like cases, the parents go after the boxes to check to get into the top schools, the kids check them. OP's son worked hard and will almost certainly go to a good school, but... Sharma's son went to MIT! All that has happened is that the gaming Indian parents do doesnt work as well as it once did because others wised up to it. I see nothing wrong with promoting someone who has "unforced" talent, and in some cases race may be a poor way in some cases to base that upon, but in general it is not so bad. The real tragedy is that the most unfair thing these colleges do, which the article mentions, legacy admissions, gets a pass in all the AA talk.

notlukesky 4y ago

It's interesting that Mike Burry of the Big Short fame just did a post on this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/michaeljburry/status/1587420720644214799 https://twitter.com/michaeljburry/status/1587420720644214799 The post is this since he famously deletes all his Twitter posts: If you are denying or justifying discrimination against Asian applicants for colleges or jobs, you know exactly how all the most oppressive racists of the past felt. -- By the way did you ever consider having your child apply to schooling in other countries that are purely exam and test based and somehow produce the engineers that FAANG companies love to hire? The education in those countries are almost free compared to the US and they graduate with minimal or zero debt and get hired for very high salaries by FAANG companies. Just look at the number of foreigners at FAANG companies with undergraduate STEM degrees from the rest of the world. They often do a masters or PHD (for free usually with TA or RA responsibilities) to get acclimated to the US and its nuances which your child does not need.

sbierwagen 4y ago
Presumably it's in reference to the case against Harvard currently before the Supreme Court: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/1131789230/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/1131789230/supreme-court-affi... Among other things, Harvard is accused of adding a "personality" metric to admissions, covering likeability and attractiveness, and consistently scoring Asians low on it, to cancel out less important things like GPA, AP credits and SAT scores. https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/harvard-admissions-asian-american https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/15/politics/harvard-admissions-a...

grog454 4y ago

> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. Define privileged. You came to the U.S. which means you had the means and impetus to do so. Doesn't that already put in the top 50th percentile of world population? 50 is wild speculation on my part and it could be higher or lower. I'm almost positive you are more privileged than someone born into a modern indigenous South American or African community. But what does it even matter? "Privileged" is completely relative and irrelevant because anyone who makes it past about the age of 18 is in some sense fortunate. > Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student? No. You're son will have to overcome unfair and unfortunate circumstances just like you did. Hopefully he has been prepared to do so.

speakfreely 4y ago
It's odd that the focus of your post is mainly an analysis of whether he is privileged enough to ignore the injustices against his son. All of us have to overcome adversity, but waving the "life is not fair" wand at unjust practices is less useful than advocating for change to a more fair system.

RickJWagner 4y ago

It is not fair to penalize your son. The system needs adjustment. Thank you for coming to America and for raising your family here. We are collectively richer for it.

RigelKentaurus 4y ago
Your comment went straight to my heart. Thank you.

felix_n 4y ago

As long as we're talking about fair, is it fair that your son, who was given every possible advantage by his well-educated and affluent parents, is graded on the same blind rubric as a kid whose father is a felon for possessing a couple ounces of marijuana and whose mother has to work 3 shitty retail jobs? Wouldn't it be reasonable to argue that the second kid getting, say, a nearly (but not quite) perfect SAT score and a 3.9 GPA is at least as impressive, or arguably more impressive, than your little darling keeping his train on the tracks that you and your wife have laid out for him?

rayiner 4y ago
That’s an argument for basing admissions decisions on economic status not race.
RigelKentaurus 4y ago
>is it fair that your son, who was given every possible advantage by his well-educated and affluent parents, is graded on the same blind rubric as a kid whose father is a felon for possessing a couple ounces of marijuana and whose mother has to work 3 shitty retail jobs? That's the exact case I made. The kid with the absentee father has worked hard, and deserves to be helped. But it's independent of race. >little darling keeping his train on the tracks that you and your wife have laid out for him I caught the condescending tone here. We live in a good, safe school district but nothing else has been laid out for him. He found all the APs, college courses, internships and applied on his own. The one thing he's not is an entitled, spoilt brat -- he's the exact opposite who takes nothing for granted and works very hard to make full use of his opportunities. It's sad that some people can't see the difference.
- speakfreely 4y ago
  > It's sad that some people can't see the difference Some people don't want to. There's an entire political movement devoted to removing individuality from the equation and seeing people only as oppressed or oppressor races. The heroes and villains are conveniently identifiable by their appearances and any details or personal history deviations from the storyline are disregarded.

erenyeager 4y ago

Ostensibly to you it isn’t “fair” in the way you have described it. But from a different view, your son is very privileged to be in the position he is, I’m sure he will do well wherever he goes for school. You’re in the South Bay bubble that has put so much hype and pressure on these things. Of course, education is important to you as a cultural value and practical matter; but consider that students who are capable can even flourish better in, for example, the community college setting for a few years before transferring (also more financially savvy). Anyways affirmative action for mostly white people (“legacy admits”) already exists. Removing AA based on race may not result in great outcomes for the underrepresented minorities. Huge disparities exist that cannot be corrected at the university level in entirely; but AA gives the opportunity for URMs to enter these spaces at higher rates than they would at a so called “level” playing field (it is never is the problem). It’s time to start considering that there is far more to life than what “elite” colleges will have people believe.

JamesianP 4y ago
Anyone who gets into a top tier school, by preference, legacy, or whatever, is already on a course to do well. They could have settled for the 2nd tier just as well. The different perspective you are referring to is groups versus individuals. to the degree that they differ, whatever is most fair for one will be less fair for the other. It is objectively true that a group preference will be unfair on an individual level to some people. For example, on an individual basis, legacy admits only benefit legacy applicants. Yet you're using this argument to support penalizing people who are not legacy applicants.
jlkuester7 4y ago
Side point, but I wonder if how many people who are opposed to AA are actually in favor of "legacy admits". Both smell very fishy to me. (No clear academic motive for either....)

deleted 4y ago

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smcg 4y ago

I can't tell if these counselors are giving bad advice or the college admissions landscape really is that competitive now compared to 15 years ago. 4.0 and 1600 are perfect scores and trivially, higher than the average scores of admitted students, let alone all applicants. Every applicant needs stuff on their application besides academics as well, so try to stand out there. They look for unique talents. If they believe that someone is the best X at Y niche that the admissions team likes them they're getting in no matter what. Also... these schools admit a number of Indian-American males every year. Your son does have a chance. Unfortunately the competition is higher for him due to these unfair rules.

onetimeusename 4y ago

I have mixed feelings about this. The issue is that there aren't enough elite seats, maybe applying to those schools is a good idea because it starts to create more elite seats. I seriously doubt there would be a serious detriment to your son's education for going to Harvey Mudd for example. I think that the subtext here is the brand name of Stanford and MIT and the Ivies is very desirable and this is less about education. The brand is real though. Those top tier schools are gateways to power and money. I read through the law suit made against Harvard and other schools and it blames white people, not affirmative action in general. It compares the test scores of white people against Asians and argues that there should be fewer white people. The % of Harvard that is white is 33%. The % of the US is 57.5%. Whites are being shut out of the premier gateways to power in the US. I think AA based on race makes sense in some way because of what these schools mean in reality. It's not just about education. The test score gap between Asians and whites is not even very broad. So on the one hand, I think all this focus on race is detrimental to life if we use it to judge the most elite people in the country. On the other hand, I think this lawsuit is just more squabbling between races to be the #1. This is a fight about prestige and power and not education, at least in my opinion.

strikelaserclaw 4y ago

My father also came to this country with nothing and built himself up, but as someone else mentioned, my father was born in a high caste, he got an education to become an engineer when most people didn't even complete secondary school. There is something to be said about generations of cultural knowledge and success that makes you rise up from "temporary poverty". This is true of most of my family, due to a bad generation of parents they became poor but they used to be pretty wealth a couple generations ago, this is a stark difference in attitude from people who've always been in multi generational poverty, they don't know any succesful people, they don't have any role models, the color of their skin / caste makes them not confident in their abilities to succeed, realistically those people are the ones who need affirmative action. i'm sure your kid is smart enough to succeed in this world even if he went to berkeley instead of stanford.

eloff 4y ago

It's not fair, and it's messed up in my opinion. But then I'm an engineer and I highly value meritocracy over everything else. Other people have different values, like racial diversity, whatever they think that means. I think they're idiots, but they think I'm racist. Unfortunately for you and me, the "idiots" are currently running the show.

Puradolia 4y ago

I suggest, if you can afford it, to try go for a European university. There's great ones in Germany, Netherlands, England, Ireland (my home)