17 ms·

Does anyone know to what extent China has advanced the state of the Soviet technology that they have (I assume) licensed? I have been to the Russian Star City t

Does anyone know to what extent China has advanced the state of the Soviet technology that they have (I assume) licensed? I have been to the Russian Star City training facility, Baikonur Cosmodrome and been in the full-size Mir training module and the Chinese station components look very similar. I am sure getting good information is difficult, but perhaps someone here has some more info.

dr-detroit 4y ago
bayesian_horse 4y ago
"Licensing" is a strong word when applied to China. I'm pretty sure they have advanced a lot and may have surpassed Russian technology in some areas. As far as I understand it, they have more diverse launch vehicles, for example. Hard to compare what constitutes "better", as long as it works. I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems.
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems. It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 with reuse. It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to SpaceX.
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    China is not a high-tech nation. There is a thin patina of bling-bling but underneath they have big trouble between corruption and nobody else trusting them. China has lots of money (for now...) so they can throw a lot of resources at the problem. In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.
    - FooBarWidget 4y ago
      Your view of China is 10 years behind reality. Corruption was a huge problem, it is still somewhat of a problem, but corruption has reduced significantly and continues to reduce. As for "nobody else trusting them": based on what evidence? Foreign investment into China is at an all-time high. Recent research has shown that while sentiments about China has become much more negative in the west (and its allies such as South Korea and Japan), sentiment in the rest of the world — accounting for 80% of humanity — has become much more positive. > In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right. I'd like to see some evidence for this huge, unnuanced claim. Of course they have an incentive to look good. So do companies all over the world. But to claim that that's all they do is to ignore the elephant in the room, namely 40 years of growth in prosperity that's unprecedented in human history.
      - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
        > sentiment in the rest of the world — accounting for 80% of humanity — has become much more positive. India is 1/6 of the world's population and its media sentiment towards China has been trending sharply downwards over the past few years.
        FooBarWidget 4y ago
        You can read the Cambridge University research yourself: https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-divided/ https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-... Check out figure 15 for South Asia's sentiment on China.
      - bayesian_horse 4y ago
        The ISS collaborators have banned Chinese astronauts. The system is a dictatorship, Xi Jinping has a bigger personality course than Mao. The real estate industry is a mess, mostly because of corruption. "Tofu" projects are rampant. The High Speed rail is too expensive and has the same "Tofu" construction problem (=corruption). Corruption is still a major problem and there is no signs it has gotten better. African Swine Flu as an example can't be contained because that would need unbribeable enforcement. No-Covid only works (in the enforcement sense) because of draconian penalties. Cronyism is an epidemic disease in itself, you can't advance in China, no matter your qualifications, if you aren't highly connected, and most aren't. Yes, I'm speaking in broad terms. But I did predict a glass ceiling years ago, because the lack of openness means terrible risk management and sophisticated risk management is crucial for sustained exponential. It has finally happened, growth in China shrank after Covid and the recovery is worse than in the rest of the world. If you need a reason not to trust China look at what happened to Hong Kong with all the promises made by CCP leadership. Look at the CCP attempts to shape policy, including in western universities. Look at the genocide against the Uyghurs. Look at the issue of organ harvesting, which is partly propaganda and partly the CCP itself hinders any attempts to actually disprove the allegations with their lack of transparency. I am forced to consider the CCP as evil-doers in the same order of magnitude as Nazi Germany. And that is before they try and retake Taiwan, which will be an unbelievably bloody business.
monocasa 4y ago
I can't speak at all to the space station, but my understanding from discussions over beers with American spacecraft MechEs was that Shenzhou resembles Soyuz (and is derived form Soyuz in real ways), but is noticeably larger. This has a significant amount of effects to essentially every aspect of the design making it pretty damn close to a fully indigenous design. They would've had to truly own every piece of the design and manufacturing to make those changes and end up with the flight safety record they currently hold.
russli1993 4y ago
Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It has expandable attachment system, allowing not only astronauts to attach, but also a smaller more precises robotic arm to attach that can manipulate external experiments. - It has a crew airlock and a cargo airlock, the cargo one is larger than the one on ISS. - It can also release small satellites through the cargo airlock. - Dozens of external experiment attachment points, some (maybe all) has power and control - What looks like pretty good communication links with the ground. Experiments can be controlled and monitored from the ground, saving astronaut time. - What looks like some advanced experiment equipment, including three very accurate atomic clocks, near absolute zero cooling systems etc. But I am not well versed in physics to speak on these. - It will operate a space telescope; telescope can dock with the station for servicing and upgrades, and equipment uploaded by regular space station cargo ship. I think it is a well-designed system, surprisingly capable in terms of research capabilities. As China's space industry is completely sanctioned by US and Wassenaar Arrangement, all technology here are from Chinese industries and local supply chains: materials, precision manufacturing, communication equipment, sensors used for guidance/automated docking, robotic arm, ion thrusters, solar panels, networking and control system within the station, even to the logistic system of building, launching and running the station. Then there is the whole rocket system themselves, 100% success rate thus far with CZ-5/B, CZ-7 cargo ship, and Shenzhou launch vehicle. And then the global positioning and communications satellite network. And then there is the whole research equipment part. There are millions+ ppl involved in all of the projects here.
- Jayab 4y ago
  So then maybe a little late to sanction their tech to keep them from being peer competitors.
  - russli1993 4y ago
    US did sanction all of China's space industry, defense dual use industries since the 1990s, and never let go ever since. That is pretty early. And this is what happens 30 years since the sanctions. But I have no idea what will happen in the future, plus the nature of industry and technology is also different.
thweirou23o43 4y ago
I doubt the Russians would share their deep-tech with China. There's quite a bit of enmity b/w the two after the Sino-Soviet split; China for much of recent history was US's weapon against Russia (and India). In fact, it was the US that indirectly help built up the US (much like the rest of East Asia). [I'm generally surprised by how ill-informed western populace is about their own govts doing.]
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  That may be the case. OTOH, why did Russia build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome almost right next to the border with China? Wouldn't something like that not be of utmost strategic importance?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
natch 4y ago
Licensed Soviet technology? Copycatted is more likely from what I’ve seen having lived in China.
- jejeyyy77 4y ago
  lol, name me any piece of art or technology and I'll let you know where it was copied from.

dr-detroit 4y ago

bayesian_horse 4y ago

"Licensing" is a strong word when applied to China. I'm pretty sure they have advanced a lot and may have surpassed Russian technology in some areas. As far as I understand it, they have more diverse launch vehicles, for example. Hard to compare what constitutes "better", as long as it works. I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems.

nordsieck 4y ago
> I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems. It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 with reuse. It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to SpaceX.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  China is not a high-tech nation. There is a thin patina of bling-bling but underneath they have big trouble between corruption and nobody else trusting them. China has lots of money (for now...) so they can throw a lot of resources at the problem. In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.
  - FooBarWidget 4y ago
    Your view of China is 10 years behind reality. Corruption was a huge problem, it is still somewhat of a problem, but corruption has reduced significantly and continues to reduce. As for "nobody else trusting them": based on what evidence? Foreign investment into China is at an all-time high. Recent research has shown that while sentiments about China has become much more negative in the west (and its allies such as South Korea and Japan), sentiment in the rest of the world — accounting for 80% of humanity — has become much more positive. > In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right. I'd like to see some evidence for this huge, unnuanced claim. Of course they have an incentive to look good. So do companies all over the world. But to claim that that's all they do is to ignore the elephant in the room, namely 40 years of growth in prosperity that's unprecedented in human history.
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      > sentiment in the rest of the world — accounting for 80% of humanity — has become much more positive. India is 1/6 of the world's population and its media sentiment towards China has been trending sharply downwards over the past few years.
      - FooBarWidget 4y ago
        You can read the Cambridge University research yourself: https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-divided/ https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-... Check out figure 15 for South Asia's sentiment on China.
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      The ISS collaborators have banned Chinese astronauts. The system is a dictatorship, Xi Jinping has a bigger personality course than Mao. The real estate industry is a mess, mostly because of corruption. "Tofu" projects are rampant. The High Speed rail is too expensive and has the same "Tofu" construction problem (=corruption). Corruption is still a major problem and there is no signs it has gotten better. African Swine Flu as an example can't be contained because that would need unbribeable enforcement. No-Covid only works (in the enforcement sense) because of draconian penalties. Cronyism is an epidemic disease in itself, you can't advance in China, no matter your qualifications, if you aren't highly connected, and most aren't. Yes, I'm speaking in broad terms. But I did predict a glass ceiling years ago, because the lack of openness means terrible risk management and sophisticated risk management is crucial for sustained exponential. It has finally happened, growth in China shrank after Covid and the recovery is worse than in the rest of the world. If you need a reason not to trust China look at what happened to Hong Kong with all the promises made by CCP leadership. Look at the CCP attempts to shape policy, including in western universities. Look at the genocide against the Uyghurs. Look at the issue of organ harvesting, which is partly propaganda and partly the CCP itself hinders any attempts to actually disprove the allegations with their lack of transparency. I am forced to consider the CCP as evil-doers in the same order of magnitude as Nazi Germany. And that is before they try and retake Taiwan, which will be an unbelievably bloody business.

monocasa 4y ago

I can't speak at all to the space station, but my understanding from discussions over beers with American spacecraft MechEs was that Shenzhou resembles Soyuz (and is derived form Soyuz in real ways), but is noticeably larger. This has a significant amount of effects to essentially every aspect of the design making it pretty damn close to a fully indigenous design. They would've had to truly own every piece of the design and manufacturing to make those changes and end up with the flight safety record they currently hold.

russli1993 4y ago

Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It has expandable attachment system, allowing not only astronauts to attach, but also a smaller more precises robotic arm to attach that can manipulate external experiments. - It has a crew airlock and a cargo airlock, the cargo one is larger than the one on ISS. - It can also release small satellites through the cargo airlock. - Dozens of external experiment attachment points, some (maybe all) has power and control - What looks like pretty good communication links with the ground. Experiments can be controlled and monitored from the ground, saving astronaut time. - What looks like some advanced experiment equipment, including three very accurate atomic clocks, near absolute zero cooling systems etc. But I am not well versed in physics to speak on these. - It will operate a space telescope; telescope can dock with the station for servicing and upgrades, and equipment uploaded by regular space station cargo ship. I think it is a well-designed system, surprisingly capable in terms of research capabilities. As China's space industry is completely sanctioned by US and Wassenaar Arrangement, all technology here are from Chinese industries and local supply chains: materials, precision manufacturing, communication equipment, sensors used for guidance/automated docking, robotic arm, ion thrusters, solar panels, networking and control system within the station, even to the logistic system of building, launching and running the station. Then there is the whole rocket system themselves, 100% success rate thus far with CZ-5/B, CZ-7 cargo ship, and Shenzhou launch vehicle. And then the global positioning and communications satellite network. And then there is the whole research equipment part. There are millions+ ppl involved in all of the projects here.

Jayab 4y ago
So then maybe a little late to sanction their tech to keep them from being peer competitors.
- russli1993 4y ago
  US did sanction all of China's space industry, defense dual use industries since the 1990s, and never let go ever since. That is pretty early. And this is what happens 30 years since the sanctions. But I have no idea what will happen in the future, plus the nature of industry and technology is also different.

thweirou23o43 4y ago

I doubt the Russians would share their deep-tech with China. There's quite a bit of enmity b/w the two after the Sino-Soviet split; China for much of recent history was US's weapon against Russia (and India). In fact, it was the US that indirectly help built up the US (much like the rest of East Asia). [I'm generally surprised by how ill-informed western populace is about their own govts doing.]

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
That may be the case. OTOH, why did Russia build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome almost right next to the border with China? Wouldn't something like that not be of utmost strategic importance?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

natch 4y ago

Licensed Soviet technology? Copycatted is more likely from what I’ve seen having lived in China.

jejeyyy77 4y ago
lol, name me any piece of art or technology and I'll let you know where it was copied from.