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A bunch of accounts like The Babylon Bee and Ye have been unbanned w/o input from any such committee of diverse viewpoints. I don't have much faith that Musk wi

A bunch of accounts like The Babylon Bee and Ye have been unbanned w/o input from any such committee of diverse viewpoints. I don't have much faith that Musk will not act unilaterally in service of his friends and allies.

mikkergp 4y ago
Were they? I know I can see their pages, but I don't see any new content from them. realdonaldtrump is still suspended, I imagine we'll just have to wait to see what happens.
- MBCook 4y ago
  Many of the “unbanned” accounts weren’t banned before and that didn’t change. They were in Twitter jail (or whatever the term is). The account is there but they couldn’t publish new tweets. That’s the change to watch for. He could unban Trump, say he kept his promise, but keep the account locked so that Trump couldn’t actually tweet. As a hypothetical example.
  - topynate 4y ago
    It's called a temporary suspension. Twitter asks you to acknowledge your tweet was bad by deleting it yourself. If you do, you get a time-out in the naughty corner for 12 hours, or a week, or whatever, and then you can tweet again. If you don't, you stay in the naughty corner. Whoever designed this process could stand to learn how to treat people like adults, in my opinion.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
      She has already been fired so the lesson is moot.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      > Whoever designed this process could stand to learn how to treat people like adults, in my opinion. So, simply shadow ban them, then?
      - topynate 4y ago
        If you're referring to HN policy then for an established account it's not really shadowbanning, because dang will tell you that you're banned and why. Being treated as a useless noob until proven otherwise is being treated as an adult. Twitter is different (although perhaps more different than it needs to be). Seeing as you ask, here is how to handle content deletion on Twitter without infantilizing users. Don't ask a user to "delete" a tweet – something which has no effect on that tweet's visibility anyway. Just hide it and tell him why. If the user chooses to appeal, that appeal can go forward without restricting the use of the account. Give time-outs sparingly. They should be more of a final warning than a routine measure. If it's necessary to give a time-out, start the clock immediately, not when the user takes some action.
  - ghostpepper 4y ago
    Why is banned vs Twitter jail (or whatever the term is) a meaningful distinction?
    - elpool2 4y ago
      It only matters when you're trying to determine if Musk or someone else at Twitter actually un-banned or un-twitter-jailed someone. If the account was merely restricted then it's possible the account owner themselves did whatever is required to un-restrict their own account (i.e., deleted some offending tweet).
trophycase 4y ago
According to sources he was unbanned before Musk got there
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  What sources?
  - jonas21 4y ago
    Source: Elon Musk https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601
    - vkou 4y ago
      He's been dishonest (in both small, and large things) with such frequency, that we're going to need independent verification before anything he says can be believed.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      Perhaps someone has independent corroboration?
dereg 4y ago
He was unbanned prior to musk’s arrival, according to musk.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  "Funding secured."
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
There have to be grades between banning and free for all.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  If we're dreaming big here, how about a slider that users can adjust for how much free speech they want to be exposed to? Or perhaps separate toggles for if they want to opt-in to seeing election misinformation, antivax conspiracies, bigotry against various groups, etc.
fasthands9 4y ago
I think one reasonable policy could be "form a council of diverse viewpoints and only ban someone if they all (or mostly all) agree the person should be kicked off" and another reasonable policy could be "form a council fo diverse viewpoints and ban someone if one (or a couple) think the person should be kicked off. I think its fair to say the committee will end up being a scapegoat - but to be charitable to the idea in general its pretty clear that not 100% or even 75% of the population thinks that Babylon Bee should be banned. If you have a system where one voice on the committee can ban someone then most liberal comedians would be banned for played up reasons, too.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Your first policy is reasonable, but your second is definitely not.
  - fasthands9 4y ago
    Sure. But ultimately there is some level of arbitrary lines where you have a trade-off of overbanning or underbanning. Say you have a committee of 9 people? What's your cut-off? There isn't a clear answer - especially as norms change a bit and the committee members change.
    - mbreese 4y ago
      I honestly don’t think it matters. The committee will answer to one person who can arbitrarily overrule the committee, whether formally or not. It’s his company and he can do what he wants with it. Any rules can be changed at any time without recourse. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. Well, it might be bad for Twitter the service, but as far as legal governance, it’s the way it works. The only limit will really be what advertisers will support. It is a business after all. But any type of council should be considered advisory at best.
  - orblivion 4y ago
    You could use the second standard to flag a user as "spicy" and hide them for users who prefer to be exposed to more "normal" opinions.
concinds 4y ago
Let's avoid disinfo. Neither account was banned to begin with. Both accounts were restricted, which could be lifted after the user deletes the offending tweet. It's overwhelmingly likely Musk had nothing to do with either case (and he said so himself). https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/technology/kanye-ye-twitter-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/technology/kanye-ye-twitt...
- mwint 4y ago
  Oh come on, that’s like saying someone isn’t being tortured, just temporarily having their pleasure removed until they confess.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Is it actually anything like torture, though?
    - GaylordTuring 4y ago
      That's often not the point of analogies like this. So for the analog to be valid, the seriousness of the situation described doesn't have to be on similar levels. If you look up the definition of "analogy" on merriam-webster.com it says: "resemblance in some [my emphasis] particulars between things otherwise unlike"
      - klyrs 4y ago
        Yeah, I know what an analogy is. It's a bloody stupid analogy because it's making a mountain out of a mole hill, when we all know that moles dig tunnels.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    No, that is like saying someone should remove some obscene clothing before entering a private establishment and here you are comparing it to be tortured.
AustinDev 4y ago
Unsuspended and Kanye's happened before he got there precisely for this framing if I had to guess. Likely a malicious employee.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > Likely a malicious employee. ...or an employee who felt unshackled from the previous management and knew they would have air-support by the time anyone else realized what had happened.
  - AustinDev 4y ago
    Also possible!
bogota 4y ago
That happened before elon officially took over. He replied to a question about it on Twitter and i really don’t see him lying about it. Im not a elon fan. At all. but the knee jerk reaction he gets at this point is kind of deserved… however you’re better off not falling into that trap.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  - bogota 4y ago
    Just my opinion. But why would you lie about what will become a fairly big piece of news right before you are about to go through and be cutting a bunch of jobs. It would be almost certain to leak.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
LastTrain 4y ago
I would imagine the committee is not bound by past decisions, so it would follow that we'd see accounts getting unbanned at first.
verisimi 4y ago
Whereas the previous crew were magnanimous?
partiallypro 4y ago
Babylon Bee being suspended was one of the dumber things the previous Twitter rules had done. It's a satire site, it's right leaning, nothing in the piece they said was hateful or even an unpopular view. Kanye's ban, he's just a mentally ill person. I don't think he meant "death con" he just didn't know that it's actually "def con." His remarks are still reprehensible. Twitter's whole moderation problem has been it is very, very inconsistent. I've seen accounts from certain political persuasions be banned or suspended, but then I have seen someone openly tell someone to kill themselves (or that they deserve to be killed or beaten) and the tweet was never removed, and the person was never suspended/banned because of the account it was aimed at. The Onion has had some questionable pieces that weren't any better than what Babylon Bee had, and they were never touched. The moderation has to be consistent; I don't think a council is a bad idea, especially for bigger account bans. All that said, I hope Trump is never allowed back, but he probably will be. In any case, things have to be equally applied and that has not been the case to anyone paying attention. Even the doxing rules have basically been completely ignored if it were aimed at -some- people. Then, there are things like the Taliban, Russia, China, etc which have at times actively cheered on social media about the death of Americans or an American defeat... having active accounts but then you ban sitting members of the US government? (I think Trump deserved it, but there are others.) How does that make any sense at all?
- pbreit 4y ago
  "I hope Trump is never allowed back," Why?
  - bitdestroyer 4y ago
    gestures broadly
  - sg47 4y ago
    - base698 4y ago
      If democracy got you Trump why would more democracy be the solution?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
moralestapia 4y ago
It seems the "private company can do what they want" argument is becoming quite unpopular all of a sudden :^)
- mikkergp 4y ago
  Is it? I haven't seen that yet, did someone put out a poll recently?
merely-unlikely 4y ago
> Ye’s account was restored by Twitter before the acquisition. They did not consult with or inform me. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601
bergenty 4y ago
- mikkergp 4y ago
  This is vague, but you're hoping to end the political oppression of trans people? > restore sanity to science and biology based cultural agreement What does this mean, like scientific studies on how to get people to agree?
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Rather the opposite. Return to sanity with gender defined by biology and provide mental health treatment for trans.
    - Elinvynia 4y ago
koonsolo 4y ago
I'm mostly curious what will happen to this account: https://twitter.com/ElonJet https://twitter.com/ElonJet
mlindner 4y ago
Babylon Bee was never unbanned (because they were never banned in the first place, just suspended and continue to be suspended) and Ye was unbanned before Elon Musk ever took over.
- judah 4y ago
  Babylon Bee's Seth Dillon put it[0] this way: > "The Babylon Bee was tossed in Twitter jail 7 months ago for a joke that referred to an adult male as a man. We could have restored our account at any time by deleting the tweet, but we refused. It was the right call. Never censor yourself, and never apologize for speaking truth." [0]: https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1585633678977544192?s=20&t=A2dKFigfjAzXc2QbtEgGMw https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1585633678977544192?s=...
  - mlindner 4y ago
    That's not the topic I'm talking about. I'm talking about the factual events of what occurred. The comment is neutral on whether it should have been suspended or not. The comment is just stating that Babylon Bee was never banned, the account still exists and it's status has not changed since that initial event and Elon Musk has had nothing to do with it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paganel 4y ago
> The Babylon Bee What's wrong with unbanning a satirical account?
wesapien 4y ago
Isn't that how it works Pre-Elon, Twitter had protected classes and ideological profiling of enemies.

mikkergp 4y ago

Were they? I know I can see their pages, but I don't see any new content from them. realdonaldtrump is still suspended, I imagine we'll just have to wait to see what happens.

MBCook 4y ago
Many of the “unbanned” accounts weren’t banned before and that didn’t change. They were in Twitter jail (or whatever the term is). The account is there but they couldn’t publish new tweets. That’s the change to watch for. He could unban Trump, say he kept his promise, but keep the account locked so that Trump couldn’t actually tweet. As a hypothetical example.
- topynate 4y ago
  It's called a temporary suspension. Twitter asks you to acknowledge your tweet was bad by deleting it yourself. If you do, you get a time-out in the naughty corner for 12 hours, or a week, or whatever, and then you can tweet again. If you don't, you stay in the naughty corner. Whoever designed this process could stand to learn how to treat people like adults, in my opinion.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    She has already been fired so the lesson is moot.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    > Whoever designed this process could stand to learn how to treat people like adults, in my opinion. So, simply shadow ban them, then?
    - topynate 4y ago
      If you're referring to HN policy then for an established account it's not really shadowbanning, because dang will tell you that you're banned and why. Being treated as a useless noob until proven otherwise is being treated as an adult. Twitter is different (although perhaps more different than it needs to be). Seeing as you ask, here is how to handle content deletion on Twitter without infantilizing users. Don't ask a user to "delete" a tweet – something which has no effect on that tweet's visibility anyway. Just hide it and tell him why. If the user chooses to appeal, that appeal can go forward without restricting the use of the account. Give time-outs sparingly. They should be more of a final warning than a routine measure. If it's necessary to give a time-out, start the clock immediately, not when the user takes some action.
- ghostpepper 4y ago
  Why is banned vs Twitter jail (or whatever the term is) a meaningful distinction?
  - elpool2 4y ago
    It only matters when you're trying to determine if Musk or someone else at Twitter actually un-banned or un-twitter-jailed someone. If the account was merely restricted then it's possible the account owner themselves did whatever is required to un-restrict their own account (i.e., deleted some offending tweet).

trophycase 4y ago

According to sources he was unbanned before Musk got there

denton-scratch 4y ago
What sources?
- jonas21 4y ago
  Source: Elon Musk https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601
  - vkou 4y ago
    He's been dishonest (in both small, and large things) with such frequency, that we're going to need independent verification before anything he says can be believed.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    Perhaps someone has independent corroboration?

dereg 4y ago

He was unbanned prior to musk’s arrival, according to musk.

FireBeyond 4y ago
"Funding secured."

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

There have to be grades between banning and free for all.

dane-pgp 4y ago
If we're dreaming big here, how about a slider that users can adjust for how much free speech they want to be exposed to? Or perhaps separate toggles for if they want to opt-in to seeing election misinformation, antivax conspiracies, bigotry against various groups, etc.

fasthands9 4y ago

I think one reasonable policy could be "form a council of diverse viewpoints and only ban someone if they all (or mostly all) agree the person should be kicked off" and another reasonable policy could be "form a council fo diverse viewpoints and ban someone if one (or a couple) think the person should be kicked off. I think its fair to say the committee will end up being a scapegoat - but to be charitable to the idea in general its pretty clear that not 100% or even 75% of the population thinks that Babylon Bee should be banned. If you have a system where one voice on the committee can ban someone then most liberal comedians would be banned for played up reasons, too.

josephcsible 4y ago
Your first policy is reasonable, but your second is definitely not.
- fasthands9 4y ago
  Sure. But ultimately there is some level of arbitrary lines where you have a trade-off of overbanning or underbanning. Say you have a committee of 9 people? What's your cut-off? There isn't a clear answer - especially as norms change a bit and the committee members change.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    I honestly don’t think it matters. The committee will answer to one person who can arbitrarily overrule the committee, whether formally or not. It’s his company and he can do what he wants with it. Any rules can be changed at any time without recourse. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. Well, it might be bad for Twitter the service, but as far as legal governance, it’s the way it works. The only limit will really be what advertisers will support. It is a business after all. But any type of council should be considered advisory at best.
- orblivion 4y ago
  You could use the second standard to flag a user as "spicy" and hide them for users who prefer to be exposed to more "normal" opinions.

concinds 4y ago

Let's avoid disinfo. Neither account was banned to begin with. Both accounts were restricted, which could be lifted after the user deletes the offending tweet. It's overwhelmingly likely Musk had nothing to do with either case (and he said so himself). https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/technology/kanye-ye-twitter-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/28/technology/kanye-ye-twitt...

mwint 4y ago
Oh come on, that’s like saying someone isn’t being tortured, just temporarily having their pleasure removed until they confess.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Is it actually anything like torture, though?
  - GaylordTuring 4y ago
    That's often not the point of analogies like this. So for the analog to be valid, the seriousness of the situation described doesn't have to be on similar levels. If you look up the definition of "analogy" on merriam-webster.com it says: "resemblance in some [my emphasis] particulars between things otherwise unlike"
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Yeah, I know what an analogy is. It's a bloody stupid analogy because it's making a mountain out of a mole hill, when we all know that moles dig tunnels.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  No, that is like saying someone should remove some obscene clothing before entering a private establishment and here you are comparing it to be tortured.

AustinDev 4y ago

Unsuspended and Kanye's happened before he got there precisely for this framing if I had to guess. Likely a malicious employee.

sangnoir 4y ago
> Likely a malicious employee. ...or an employee who felt unshackled from the previous management and knew they would have air-support by the time anyone else realized what had happened.
- AustinDev 4y ago
  Also possible!

bogota 4y ago

That happened before elon officially took over. He replied to a question about it on Twitter and i really don’t see him lying about it. Im not a elon fan. At all. but the knee jerk reaction he gets at this point is kind of deserved… however you’re better off not falling into that trap.

FireBeyond 4y ago
- bogota 4y ago
  Just my opinion. But why would you lie about what will become a fairly big piece of news right before you are about to go through and be cutting a bunch of jobs. It would be almost certain to leak.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

LastTrain 4y ago

I would imagine the committee is not bound by past decisions, so it would follow that we'd see accounts getting unbanned at first.

verisimi 4y ago

Whereas the previous crew were magnanimous?

partiallypro 4y ago

Babylon Bee being suspended was one of the dumber things the previous Twitter rules had done. It's a satire site, it's right leaning, nothing in the piece they said was hateful or even an unpopular view. Kanye's ban, he's just a mentally ill person. I don't think he meant "death con" he just didn't know that it's actually "def con." His remarks are still reprehensible. Twitter's whole moderation problem has been it is very, very inconsistent. I've seen accounts from certain political persuasions be banned or suspended, but then I have seen someone openly tell someone to kill themselves (or that they deserve to be killed or beaten) and the tweet was never removed, and the person was never suspended/banned because of the account it was aimed at. The Onion has had some questionable pieces that weren't any better than what Babylon Bee had, and they were never touched. The moderation has to be consistent; I don't think a council is a bad idea, especially for bigger account bans. All that said, I hope Trump is never allowed back, but he probably will be. In any case, things have to be equally applied and that has not been the case to anyone paying attention. Even the doxing rules have basically been completely ignored if it were aimed at -some- people. Then, there are things like the Taliban, Russia, China, etc which have at times actively cheered on social media about the death of Americans or an American defeat... having active accounts but then you ban sitting members of the US government? (I think Trump deserved it, but there are others.) How does that make any sense at all?

pbreit 4y ago
"I hope Trump is never allowed back," Why?
- bitdestroyer 4y ago
  gestures broadly
- sg47 4y ago
  - base698 4y ago
    If democracy got you Trump why would more democracy be the solution?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

moralestapia 4y ago

It seems the "private company can do what they want" argument is becoming quite unpopular all of a sudden :^)

mikkergp 4y ago
Is it? I haven't seen that yet, did someone put out a poll recently?

merely-unlikely 4y ago

> Ye’s account was restored by Twitter before the acquisition. They did not consult with or inform me. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586073042534297601

bergenty 4y ago

mikkergp 4y ago
This is vague, but you're hoping to end the political oppression of trans people? > restore sanity to science and biology based cultural agreement What does this mean, like scientific studies on how to get people to agree?
- bergenty 4y ago
  Rather the opposite. Return to sanity with gender defined by biology and provide mental health treatment for trans.
  - Elinvynia 4y ago

koonsolo 4y ago

I'm mostly curious what will happen to this account: https://twitter.com/ElonJet https://twitter.com/ElonJet

mlindner 4y ago

Babylon Bee was never unbanned (because they were never banned in the first place, just suspended and continue to be suspended) and Ye was unbanned before Elon Musk ever took over.

judah 4y ago
Babylon Bee's Seth Dillon put it[0] this way: > "The Babylon Bee was tossed in Twitter jail 7 months ago for a joke that referred to an adult male as a man. We could have restored our account at any time by deleting the tweet, but we refused. It was the right call. Never censor yourself, and never apologize for speaking truth." [0]: https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1585633678977544192?s=20&t=A2dKFigfjAzXc2QbtEgGMw https://twitter.com/SethDillon/status/1585633678977544192?s=...
- mlindner 4y ago
  That's not the topic I'm talking about. I'm talking about the factual events of what occurred. The comment is neutral on whether it should have been suspended or not. The comment is just stating that Babylon Bee was never banned, the account still exists and it's status has not changed since that initial event and Elon Musk has had nothing to do with it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

paganel 4y ago

> The Babylon Bee What's wrong with unbanning a satirical account?

wesapien 4y ago

Isn't that how it works Pre-Elon, Twitter had protected classes and ideological profiling of enemies.