14 ms·

It's election season and I've been out talking to voters, who share their life stories... what I would say is that there are many women who are choosing WFH bec

It's election season and I've been out talking to voters, who share their life stories... what I would say is that there are many women who are choosing WFH because they either can't afford or can't find day care, which may lead to deciding that hey, they might as well have another baby if they are now committed to this employment model. I've spoken to several women who were over-qualified for the jobs they had taken to WFH, but felt it was the best job situation for their families - spouse could then take on new career opportunities when both weren't struggling with commutes, day care, etc. So this article feels like it is overlooking the way women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers.

CalRobert 4y ago
We had two kids largely because my wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed, so why not?
- rs999gti 4y ago
  > wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed Really? She traded one job for another or does corporate life really matter that much to her?
  - Pasorrijer 4y ago
    A fairly significant amount of women have dedicated a decent amount of time, and money, academically, socially, etc. To their careers. Why, some women have even found working to be more enjoyable to being at home with kids. All joking aside, my wife is extremely worried about the impact her career will take from having children and her life goals include executive level leadership as part of her career. So you could, in fact say that corporate life really does matter that much to her.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      She can always start her own business. Don't need anyone's approval for that.
      - ethbr0 4y ago
        Except in (unnecessarily-) boarded industries and ones with predatory non-competes. Pedantic pique, but both annoy the hell out of me.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Don't sign predatory non-competes. If one is executive material, negotiation is a necessary skill :-) I was helping a friend buy a car the other day. The salesman kept coming back with a "final" offer and "we can't go lower than that", etc., etc. But I advised my friend to hold the line, and he did till the offer got into his price range.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        I meant less so on the business owner side, although it is a lesser concern there too, and more so on employee side. Hard to hire experienced employees if no one in your industry (i.e. nail care) can change employers. And then there's the latest 'you owe the (arbitrary) cost of your training if you leave before X' restrictions. Also, car buying is the worst. The only working formula I've found is to deal with internet sales, confirm the number, show up, and say you're walking if they add anything but taxes to it.
        namecheapTA 4y ago
        Take it from a car salesman, this is often a tactic to slow down the negotiation and make you feel like your offer was a good deal for you. I have said those words many times when I could have gone lower than their offer, but if you just go back and accept it, a lot of "hard negotiators" get cold feet. Anyone that brings a friend to buy a car with them automatically broadcasts "I'm playing games and brought an extra player" so we turn on the games too.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - rdtwo 4y ago
      I don’t think you can be a executive and be a good mom/dad at the same time. At least not in most companies.
- logifail 4y ago
  > We had two kids largely because my wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed, so why not? <cough> there are also some men out here with (how can I put this nicely?) less-than-stellar-careers precisely because of this factor, too. [We live in a perhaps-somewhat-less-than-entirely-enlightened part of Europe] and our local "Mum and Baby" group finally got round to renaming itself to "Parent and Baby" group after I started attending the third time around... :)
tkk23 4y ago
>who were over-qualified for the jobs they had taken to WFH What's missing to link those women to matching jobs? There must also be many new mothers who would like to work but who haven't found a WFH job.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  In one memorable account, I spoke to a scientist working in some kind of environmental management role - where her husband ended up taking the job she would have otherwise by rank and seniority and she took a lesser role on the team so that she could stay home, IE: he did the field work, she did the office stuff. They had two kids and couldn't find care any longer for the kids as it was a supply-side issue. There's been this impression out there that Millenials (who are at child-bearing age now) are less likely to have children. It would be interesting to research if they are just sort of "late bloomers" who perhaps by virtue of WFH or maybe other TBD factors have decided it's now time to start a family.
rajin444 4y ago
> women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers Forcing 2 household incomes was/is awful for a healthy society. Women are the only humans that can produce children and they have to do it during a relatively short time window - especially if we want to reproduce at replacement level. Raising children should be regarded as one of the most important things a woman can do because they’re the only ones that can do it. I’m not sure how western society will continue if we view raising a child instead of having a career as “stepping up”. It’s certainly disrespectful to all the mothers of our future.
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  Or we could just make sure women have careers by having good social support?
  - rednerrus 4y ago
    Where does the social support come from if everyone is working?
    - washadjeffmad 4y ago
      People who work in social support? Look at east vs west Germany. West Germany struggled with demand for social and child services during the pandemic, but the East never dismantled theirs, and it showed. Care and support are jobs.
      - rednerrus 4y ago
        Where do the people who work in social support send their kids?
        thatfrenchguy 4y ago
        To the same daycares? Do you not live somewhere where there are daycares?
citilife 4y ago
> overlooking the way women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers. My favorite question to ask is: "why you want a career?" to pretty much anyone who speaks in this manner. Serious question to people, I don't get it. I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. That said, I don't work for a "career", I work to afford me opportunity. A family is an investment in the future, it provides you happiness, but more importantly purpose. Sure, there's a lot of stress, and you have to invest a lot of time. That said, it pays off an order of magnitude in terms of life satisfaction and having future opportunities. Who's going to take you on vacation when you're 65 and have a bad hip -- if not your children? My proudest achievement are things my children have done, not the accolades, promotions, bonuses, etc I've received in my career. If I work hard, slave at night to get my presentation(s) done, will our product be better? Maybe, but in all likelihood that just makes me look good enough to get promoted, but 5 years later I wont have anything but a pay check to show for it. Wealth without purpose is worthless.
- poulsbohemian 4y ago
  >I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. You wouldn't be content with your work situation in that case, right? Sure, it might just be for a few years - but what if those few years block you from key promotions or research opportunities? Do you get it? I'm certainly not saying that everyone should be focused on their careers, I'm just observing that sometimes people are making tradeoffs between their careers and their personal life, and more often than not it is the female in the heterosexual relationship that is making more of those tradeoffs.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. That is the primary reason women end up making more tradeoffs in terms of career vs. family. Sure, there are some cultural and political things that can be changed. But there are some fundamental biological realities that cannot. > Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family.
rayiner 4y ago
That’s part of the story. The other part is that many women don’t want to be in the workforce. Among women with children under 18, the majority (50-45) would prefer a “homemaker role.” https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer.... Among women without a college degree, whether or not they have kids, it’s 44%. The pandemic also coincides with a few years of strong wage growth among working class households. A lot of women left the workforce because they no longer had to work. It’s important to remember that most people have “jobs,” not “careers.”
- tsol 4y ago
  >Among women with children under 18, the majority (50-45) would prefer a “homemaker role.” Weird, I never hear this. I never see discussions of about women wanting to be homemakers, especially as much as the opposite(women wanting to enter the workforce). I wonder if people with these opinions just find it more easily.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    How many 30+ women do you know who don’t have a college degree?
purpleblue 4y ago
I've sacrificed my entire career so that I can take be the primary caregiver of the kids, and my wife can concentrate 100% on her career. During the pandemic, I quit my job and concentrated solely on the kids, and now that the pandemic is over, I'm at a much less demanding job so that I can do all the pick ups, drop offs, homework assignments, etc. I love it, and I feel truly lucky that my life has given me the opportunity to focus on my kids.
yndoendo 4y ago
NPR had a good radio episode about this. https://www.npr.org/2021/12/16/1064794349/child-care-costs-biden-plan https://www.npr.org/2021/12/16/1064794349/child-care-costs-b... The free market cannot sustain the day-care market and only government intervention is feasible in the long run. As they did during WWII and was axed by President Nixon. This single act drove the labor market during the war.
whoIsYou 4y ago
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I'm waiting for the day when an article like this doesn't result in someone turning it into a men vs women thing.

CalRobert 4y ago

We had two kids largely because my wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed, so why not?

rs999gti 4y ago
> wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed Really? She traded one job for another or does corporate life really matter that much to her?
- Pasorrijer 4y ago
  A fairly significant amount of women have dedicated a decent amount of time, and money, academically, socially, etc. To their careers. Why, some women have even found working to be more enjoyable to being at home with kids. All joking aside, my wife is extremely worried about the impact her career will take from having children and her life goals include executive level leadership as part of her career. So you could, in fact say that corporate life really does matter that much to her.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    She can always start her own business. Don't need anyone's approval for that.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      Except in (unnecessarily-) boarded industries and ones with predatory non-competes. Pedantic pique, but both annoy the hell out of me.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Don't sign predatory non-competes. If one is executive material, negotiation is a necessary skill :-) I was helping a friend buy a car the other day. The salesman kept coming back with a "final" offer and "we can't go lower than that", etc., etc. But I advised my friend to hold the line, and he did till the offer got into his price range.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        I meant less so on the business owner side, although it is a lesser concern there too, and more so on employee side. Hard to hire experienced employees if no one in your industry (i.e. nail care) can change employers. And then there's the latest 'you owe the (arbitrary) cost of your training if you leave before X' restrictions. Also, car buying is the worst. The only working formula I've found is to deal with internet sales, confirm the number, show up, and say you're walking if they add anything but taxes to it.
        namecheapTA 4y ago
        Take it from a car salesman, this is often a tactic to slow down the negotiation and make you feel like your offer was a good deal for you. I have said those words many times when I could have gone lower than their offer, but if you just go back and accept it, a lot of "hard negotiators" get cold feet. Anyone that brings a friend to buy a car with them automatically broadcasts "I'm playing games and brought an extra player" so we turn on the games too.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    I don’t think you can be a executive and be a good mom/dad at the same time. At least not in most companies.
logifail 4y ago
> We had two kids largely because my wife was resigned to her career already being destroyed, so why not? <cough> there are also some men out here with (how can I put this nicely?) less-than-stellar-careers precisely because of this factor, too. [We live in a perhaps-somewhat-less-than-entirely-enlightened part of Europe] and our local "Mum and Baby" group finally got round to renaming itself to "Parent and Baby" group after I started attending the third time around... :)

tkk23 4y ago

>who were over-qualified for the jobs they had taken to WFH What's missing to link those women to matching jobs? There must also be many new mothers who would like to work but who haven't found a WFH job.

poulsbohemian 4y ago
In one memorable account, I spoke to a scientist working in some kind of environmental management role - where her husband ended up taking the job she would have otherwise by rank and seniority and she took a lesser role on the team so that she could stay home, IE: he did the field work, she did the office stuff. They had two kids and couldn't find care any longer for the kids as it was a supply-side issue. There's been this impression out there that Millenials (who are at child-bearing age now) are less likely to have children. It would be interesting to research if they are just sort of "late bloomers" who perhaps by virtue of WFH or maybe other TBD factors have decided it's now time to start a family.

rajin444 4y ago

> women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers Forcing 2 household incomes was/is awful for a healthy society. Women are the only humans that can produce children and they have to do it during a relatively short time window - especially if we want to reproduce at replacement level. Raising children should be regarded as one of the most important things a woman can do because they’re the only ones that can do it. I’m not sure how western society will continue if we view raising a child instead of having a career as “stepping up”. It’s certainly disrespectful to all the mothers of our future.

thatfrenchguy 4y ago
Or we could just make sure women have careers by having good social support?
- rednerrus 4y ago
  Where does the social support come from if everyone is working?
  - washadjeffmad 4y ago
    People who work in social support? Look at east vs west Germany. West Germany struggled with demand for social and child services during the pandemic, but the East never dismantled theirs, and it showed. Care and support are jobs.
    - rednerrus 4y ago
      Where do the people who work in social support send their kids?
      - thatfrenchguy 4y ago
        To the same daycares? Do you not live somewhere where there are daycares?

citilife 4y ago

> overlooking the way women have stepped up for their families often to the detriment of their own careers. My favorite question to ask is: "why you want a career?" to pretty much anyone who speaks in this manner. Serious question to people, I don't get it. I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. That said, I don't work for a "career", I work to afford me opportunity. A family is an investment in the future, it provides you happiness, but more importantly purpose. Sure, there's a lot of stress, and you have to invest a lot of time. That said, it pays off an order of magnitude in terms of life satisfaction and having future opportunities. Who's going to take you on vacation when you're 65 and have a bad hip -- if not your children? My proudest achievement are things my children have done, not the accolades, promotions, bonuses, etc I've received in my career. If I work hard, slave at night to get my presentation(s) done, will our product be better? Maybe, but in all likelihood that just makes me look good enough to get promoted, but 5 years later I wont have anything but a pay check to show for it. Wealth without purpose is worthless.

poulsbohemian 4y ago
>I love learning, I'm highly qualified in the academic space and enjoy picking at problems. I've written papers, patents, well paid, etc. Highly successful by most metrics. Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. You wouldn't be content with your work situation in that case, right? Sure, it might just be for a few years - but what if those few years block you from key promotions or research opportunities? Do you get it? I'm certainly not saying that everyone should be focused on their careers, I'm just observing that sometimes people are making tradeoffs between their careers and their personal life, and more often than not it is the female in the heterosexual relationship that is making more of those tradeoffs.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  Women can get pregnant and breast feed. Men can't. That is the primary reason women end up making more tradeoffs in terms of career vs. family. Sure, there are some cultural and political things that can be changed. But there are some fundamental biological realities that cannot. > Right - so imagine that you didn't have that opportunity to do that academic work because you have an elderly parent at home who needs care. You've got two little kids at home who aren't yet school age and thus needs care. Many people will choose the elderly parents and little kids over academic work and promotions, given they have enough money to support themselves. The academic work and promotions are just a means to an end, which for many is the ability to support and raise a family.

rayiner 4y ago

That’s part of the story. The other part is that many women don’t want to be in the workforce. Among women with children under 18, the majority (50-45) would prefer a “homemaker role.” https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer.... Among women without a college degree, whether or not they have kids, it’s 44%. The pandemic also coincides with a few years of strong wage growth among working class households. A lot of women left the workforce because they no longer had to work. It’s important to remember that most people have “jobs,” not “careers.”

tsol 4y ago
>Among women with children under 18, the majority (50-45) would prefer a “homemaker role.” Weird, I never hear this. I never see discussions of about women wanting to be homemakers, especially as much as the opposite(women wanting to enter the workforce). I wonder if people with these opinions just find it more easily.
- rayiner 4y ago
  How many 30+ women do you know who don’t have a college degree?

purpleblue 4y ago

I've sacrificed my entire career so that I can take be the primary caregiver of the kids, and my wife can concentrate 100% on her career. During the pandemic, I quit my job and concentrated solely on the kids, and now that the pandemic is over, I'm at a much less demanding job so that I can do all the pick ups, drop offs, homework assignments, etc. I love it, and I feel truly lucky that my life has given me the opportunity to focus on my kids.

yndoendo 4y ago

NPR had a good radio episode about this. https://www.npr.org/2021/12/16/1064794349/child-care-costs-biden-plan https://www.npr.org/2021/12/16/1064794349/child-care-costs-b... The free market cannot sustain the day-care market and only government intervention is feasible in the long run. As they did during WWII and was axed by President Nixon. This single act drove the labor market during the war.

whoIsYou 4y ago

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I'm waiting for the day when an article like this doesn't result in someone turning it into a men vs women thing.