15 ms·

This is a nice way to excuse your racism. A lot of people use this perverted logic. But at the end of the day, it's still evil racism. Different "worlds" (nei

by tomp 4y ago

This is a nice way to excuse your racism. A lot of people use this perverted logic. But at the end of the day, it's still evil racism. Different "worlds" (neighbourhoods, schools, health care) doesn't happen because of skin color, it happens because of wealth/poverty. So if you apply a racist filter on top of the (implicit) wealth filter, you're just being racist against poor Asian & white people.

guhidalg 4y ago
Ya you are, but you know white people and Asians are less likely to be poor compared to Hispanics and African Americans so reality is fighting against your argument.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Reality isn't fighting against their argument as long as a single white or Asian poor person exists. It still means an approach is punching a part of the population further down. These things aren't mutually exclusive, stop trying to project them as such.
- ponow 4y ago
  No it isn't.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  > Ya you are, but you know white people and Asians are less likely to be poor compared to Hispanics and African Americans so reality is fighting against your argument. Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in the US. If we are trying to give opportunity to impoverished people we would judge by poverty. If we want to live in a racist society then we would judge by race.
  - adamwk 4y ago
    > Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in the US Where are you people getting these stats? This is being repeated elsewhere and is not based in reality at all.
    - jimmygrapes 4y ago
      https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2022/demo/income-poverty/p60-277.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2022/demo/income-poverty/... You may be thinking of poverty rates or proportional percentages if you think the above is untrue. The data is there for you to manipulate for your purposes as you wish, though.
    - rcoveson 4y ago
      It is ambiguous as written, and false by one interpretation but true by the other. True: There are more white people in poverty (~5.5% of population) than black people [in poverty (~2.5%)] in the US. False: There are more white people in poverty (~5.5%) than black people [in or out of poverty (~13.6%)] in the US.
      - nonethewiser 4y ago
        To be clear, I meant "Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in poverty in the US."
    - cirgue 4y ago
      https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/p60/277/tableA1_pov_characteristics.xlsx https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/p60/277...
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      Why is that statistic even important to you? If it's about solving poverty then judge by how impoverished someone is, not their skin color. But it also shouldn't be surprising. There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. Do the math.
      - feoren 4y ago
        > There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. You've given the exact reason why your statement is a completely useless red herring. Say there was a minority in the U.S., the Romulans. Let's say literally every single Romulan in the U.S. was impoverished due to hundreds of years of systemic, intentional racism. But there's only, say, 500,000 of them. Half a million. Your argument is "we shouldn't give more opportunities to the Romulans to counteract the very obvious and intentional systemic racism that put them in the shitty position they're in, because way more white people are in that shitty position. We should only focus on poverty, so that we help 36 white people for every 1 Romulan helped. Even though the Romulans are impoverished because of intentional, systemic racism. Even though their towns were literally bombed if they dared get too successful. Nope, we have to help 36 white people each time we help 1 Romulan." Do you see why that sounds racist?
lordleft 4y ago
> Different "worlds" (neighbourhoods, schools, health care) doesn't happen because of skin color, it happens because of wealth/poverty. This is false. But let me charitably engage your argument and ask you the following -- if your premise is correct, that means that lower access to education and economic attainment among under represented people of color has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with...something. What is that thing? Why would it be the case that, as Philosopher Liam Bright says, "the people who have the stuff still tend to be white, and blacks must still sell our labour to them if we are to get by"?
- tomp 4y ago
  Do Obama's daughters have lower access to education? No. So it's not about race. (I just gave you proof.) It's about wealth and social class. Sure, those might correlate with race, and even be caused by racism (past or present), but virtually all real world consequences are downstream of wealth (in particular the ones mentioned: where you live, what you can afford, the amount of free time you have, your health, your nutrition, access to education/jobs, ...). If you ignore wealth and focus on race, you're racist.
  - rrradical 4y ago
    Has there ever been a poor person that has succeeded in our society? Of course. Therefore I proved money doesn't matter. (Do you see how stupid this argument is?)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  > that means that lower access to education and economic attainment But you're not arguing that we give opportunities to people without good access to education and poor finances. You're arguing we give opportunity based off race. In fact, there are far more white people in the US with poor access to education. If you really wanted to increase opportunities for such people you wouldn't accomplish it by judging by race.
nyuszika7h 4y ago
- djbebs 4y ago
  But they are systematically oppressed. Just look at college affirmative action policies.
  - psd1 4y ago
    ...but don't look at a century of explicitly racist zoning laws and school funding disparity...
- Octabrain 4y ago
  I hate to have to say something this obvious but here it goes: Discriminating against a group of human beings for an arbitrary detail such as the color of the skin is indeed racist. No matter if that human being is a freaking north-europe-blonde-arian-white or whatever. No matter if that human being is or not opressed or whatever. Judging people by the color of the skin is WRONG. This ideological bullshit that US is expelling that pretends to normalice racism against white people is atrocious and must end and everyone, like you, that follows this line of thought must be called out and being exposed as what you are, which is being a fucking racist. Seriously, it is beyond me.
  - ParetoOptimal 4y ago
    It is racist, but it's not the same kind of racist backed by 200 plus years of systematic oppression.
    - Octabrain 4y ago
      Ok, so we distinguish between "good racism" and "bad racism" then? Absurd. Sorry but I do not make that distinction: racism is bad no matter what your ancestor did and it's despicable. Also, *stop* assuming that the whole world has the same historical context as the US.
moistly 4y ago
- moistly 4y ago
- philwelch 4y ago
  - moistly 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - philwelch 4y ago
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 4y ago
        Your comments in this thread have broken the site guidelines shamefully. We ban accounts that post like this. I would have banned the two of you, but I don't want to ban you without a warning and I'm not going to let you off the hook while banning the other person, so I'm going to let you both off the hook. However, please don't ever vandalize HN like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - dang 4y ago
      You broke the site guidelines extremely, horribly, and repeatedly in this thread. If you do that again we will ban you. We've had to ask you this more than once before. You can't vandalize HN like this, no matter how right you are or feel you are. And you've done it elsewhere recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33148354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33148354. That's not ok. I actually banned you just now, but decided to undo it because the other user was also way over the line. If you don't want to be banned on HN, please respect the rules from now on. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ParetoOptimal 4y ago
I've met plenty of white programmers that grew up poor, but not many black programmers who grew up poor.
dang 4y ago
Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tomp 4y ago

by tomp 4y ago

guhidalg 4y ago

Ya you are, but you know white people and Asians are less likely to be poor compared to Hispanics and African Americans so reality is fighting against your argument.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Reality isn't fighting against their argument as long as a single white or Asian poor person exists. It still means an approach is punching a part of the population further down. These things aren't mutually exclusive, stop trying to project them as such.
ponow 4y ago
No it isn't.
nonethewiser 4y ago
> Ya you are, but you know white people and Asians are less likely to be poor compared to Hispanics and African Americans so reality is fighting against your argument. Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in the US. If we are trying to give opportunity to impoverished people we would judge by poverty. If we want to live in a racist society then we would judge by race.
- adamwk 4y ago
  > Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in the US Where are you people getting these stats? This is being repeated elsewhere and is not based in reality at all.
  - jimmygrapes 4y ago
    https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2022/demo/income-poverty/p60-277.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2022/demo/income-poverty/... You may be thinking of poverty rates or proportional percentages if you think the above is untrue. The data is there for you to manipulate for your purposes as you wish, though.
  - rcoveson 4y ago
    It is ambiguous as written, and false by one interpretation but true by the other. True: There are more white people in poverty (~5.5% of population) than black people [in poverty (~2.5%)] in the US. False: There are more white people in poverty (~5.5%) than black people [in or out of poverty (~13.6%)] in the US.
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      To be clear, I meant "Yet there are more white people in poverty than black people in poverty in the US."
  - cirgue 4y ago
    https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/p60/277/tableA1_pov_characteristics.xlsx https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/demo/tables/p60/277...
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    Why is that statistic even important to you? If it's about solving poverty then judge by how impoverished someone is, not their skin color. But it also shouldn't be surprising. There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. Do the math.
    - feoren 4y ago
      > There are almost 6x as many white people in the US as black people. Poverty rates amongst white people is about half of black people. You've given the exact reason why your statement is a completely useless red herring. Say there was a minority in the U.S., the Romulans. Let's say literally every single Romulan in the U.S. was impoverished due to hundreds of years of systemic, intentional racism. But there's only, say, 500,000 of them. Half a million. Your argument is "we shouldn't give more opportunities to the Romulans to counteract the very obvious and intentional systemic racism that put them in the shitty position they're in, because way more white people are in that shitty position. We should only focus on poverty, so that we help 36 white people for every 1 Romulan helped. Even though the Romulans are impoverished because of intentional, systemic racism. Even though their towns were literally bombed if they dared get too successful. Nope, we have to help 36 white people each time we help 1 Romulan." Do you see why that sounds racist?

lordleft 4y ago

> Different "worlds" (neighbourhoods, schools, health care) doesn't happen because of skin color, it happens because of wealth/poverty. This is false. But let me charitably engage your argument and ask you the following -- if your premise is correct, that means that lower access to education and economic attainment among under represented people of color has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with...something. What is that thing? Why would it be the case that, as Philosopher Liam Bright says, "the people who have the stuff still tend to be white, and blacks must still sell our labour to them if we are to get by"?

tomp 4y ago
Do Obama's daughters have lower access to education? No. So it's not about race. (I just gave you proof.) It's about wealth and social class. Sure, those might correlate with race, and even be caused by racism (past or present), but virtually all real world consequences are downstream of wealth (in particular the ones mentioned: where you live, what you can afford, the amount of free time you have, your health, your nutrition, access to education/jobs, ...). If you ignore wealth and focus on race, you're racist.
- rrradical 4y ago
  Has there ever been a poor person that has succeeded in our society? Of course. Therefore I proved money doesn't matter. (Do you see how stupid this argument is?)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
nonethewiser 4y ago
> that means that lower access to education and economic attainment But you're not arguing that we give opportunities to people without good access to education and poor finances. You're arguing we give opportunity based off race. In fact, there are far more white people in the US with poor access to education. If you really wanted to increase opportunities for such people you wouldn't accomplish it by judging by race.

nyuszika7h 4y ago

djbebs 4y ago
But they are systematically oppressed. Just look at college affirmative action policies.
- psd1 4y ago
  ...but don't look at a century of explicitly racist zoning laws and school funding disparity...
Octabrain 4y ago
I hate to have to say something this obvious but here it goes: Discriminating against a group of human beings for an arbitrary detail such as the color of the skin is indeed racist. No matter if that human being is a freaking north-europe-blonde-arian-white or whatever. No matter if that human being is or not opressed or whatever. Judging people by the color of the skin is WRONG. This ideological bullshit that US is expelling that pretends to normalice racism against white people is atrocious and must end and everyone, like you, that follows this line of thought must be called out and being exposed as what you are, which is being a fucking racist. Seriously, it is beyond me.
- ParetoOptimal 4y ago
  It is racist, but it's not the same kind of racist backed by 200 plus years of systematic oppression.
  - Octabrain 4y ago
    Ok, so we distinguish between "good racism" and "bad racism" then? Absurd. Sorry but I do not make that distinction: racism is bad no matter what your ancestor did and it's despicable. Also, *stop* assuming that the whole world has the same historical context as the US.

moistly 4y ago

moistly 4y ago
philwelch 4y ago
- moistly 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - philwelch 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - dang 4y ago
      Your comments in this thread have broken the site guidelines shamefully. We ban accounts that post like this. I would have banned the two of you, but I don't want to ban you without a warning and I'm not going to let you off the hook while banning the other person, so I'm going to let you both off the hook. However, please don't ever vandalize HN like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 4y ago
    You broke the site guidelines extremely, horribly, and repeatedly in this thread. If you do that again we will ban you. We've had to ask you this more than once before. You can't vandalize HN like this, no matter how right you are or feel you are. And you've done it elsewhere recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33148354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33148354. That's not ok. I actually banned you just now, but decided to undo it because the other user was also way over the line. If you don't want to be banned on HN, please respect the rules from now on. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ParetoOptimal 4y ago

I've met plenty of white programmers that grew up poor, but not many black programmers who grew up poor.

dang 4y ago

Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tomp 4y ago