10 ms·

This gives me some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, having a common connector will reduce waste and be much more convenient (eg "Hey have you got an iPhon

This gives me some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, having a common connector will reduce waste and be much more convenient (eg "Hey have you got an iPhone charger?") and make losing a charger a cheaper mistake. On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way (eg "banning encryption"). I don't know what to think.

messe 4y ago
I wouldn’t be too concerned. They did it before to standardise on micro USB, in such a way that didn’t stop manufacturers from moving to USB-C. This is really just an update of that same rule.
- skohan 4y ago
  How did Apple dodge this with micro-USB?
  - throwaway744678 4y ago
    A dongle was available.
  - danhor 4y ago
    It was not a law, but an agreement (to stop the EU enacting a law) and dongles were sufficient. This is a law and dongles aren't sufficient.
  - pimterry 4y ago
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply - they included a dongle that allowed micro-USB charging of iPhones.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
The general principle is wait for the dust to settle and then enforce whatever is the industry majority with an agreed mature tech. Btw the same thing happened with the EV charging (SAE J1772).
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  EV connector is different in EU.
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    The principle is the same IEC 62196.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
tgv 4y ago
Thank God nobody ever standardized electrical plugs. I'd hate being able to plug my vacuum cleaner and laptop in the same outlet.
- skohan 4y ago
  I have traveled to parts of the developing world where standardization hasn't happened and it's a huge mess
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    Yeah, I have bad memories from Italy, too.
    - alanfranz 4y ago
      About Europe, you mean? The problem is not Italy, it’s different EU countries abiding different standards.
      - salex89 4y ago
        Traveling much of Europe (humble brag) the only places where I have seen some noticeable difference is Britain (of course) Italy and Malta. That being said, any remotely modern building or establishment expecting travelers on Malta or Italy has plugs with at least USB-A or the two prong "European" (with the round prongs, don't know the standard name).
      - skohan 4y ago
        Have you seen this outside Italy? Everywhere else in Europe I've always seen the Europlug, it's only Italy where sometimes you have the weird 3-in-a-line plug, at least in Western Europe
        audunw 4y ago
        Denmark has the smiley face plug. It works fine if you don't need a grounded connection, but still.. they have a lot of sockets that don't follow the EU standard. I think France has the one where the ground pin sticks out? That can be a problem depending on which cable you have. And then there's UK of course, though they're not part of EU anymore.
skohan 4y ago
I am similarly of two minds. As an engineer, I can imagine how legal mandates for technology choices could stifle innovation and make the future of technology worse. But at the same time, I think there may be a place for mandating interface compatibility. To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards? Or where would we be if every country had a handful of competing power grids with different voltages and outlet types? So I am not sure the cable which plugs into our phones is the correct target for standardization, but in spirit I think it's worthwhile to consider how the public good of interoperability should be weighed against a handful of corporations' interest in building technological moats around themselves and their users.
- jmull 4y ago
  I can “reassure” you: this is unambiguously a bad idea. First, market forces already standardized on two main standards. Second, the interop problem is a $10 cable between wall-wart and device. So the problem solved is a small one. I think this idea got its momentum from years ago when practically every model of phone had a different charger and wall wart. Meanwhile, think about what you lose. Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors? It has existing issues with labeling and capabilities confusion. What about mag-safe-style connectors? Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all and might there not be advantages to not having one? As an aside, ewaste will increase in the short term, of course, as people will have to throw out their lighting stuff and buy USB-C stuff. (Don’t worry, it’s not a lot — small problem, remember.)
  - skohan 4y ago
    But you're assuming this USB-C decision is eternal right? Couldn't the problems you raised be solved by having a standards organization which could monitor and update the status quo over time based on the technologies available?
    - jmull 4y ago
      Which already exists -- without EU regulatory processes to encumber them.
lloydatkinson 4y ago
It will end up with the terrible quality fake usb cables and chargers we have today, thanks for the usb organisation not being stricter. Seems hard to find specific types of USB 3/C cables. In some cases they have damaged the connected devices which should be considered a failure of the U part. If anything this will increase the value of official apple chargers because at least those will be well designed.
- danhor 4y ago
  Even if you're buying from Amazon or AliExpress, there have been very few cases over the last few years of them damaging your device compared to the first years of USB-C. They might still have other issues, but nothing that damages your device.
krageon 4y ago
> stifle innovation We have plenty of free market examples of why "innovation" in the connector space almost always spawns lemons and makes everything worse in the meantime.
- hackeraccount 4y ago
  Do we? By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out? I find laws like this problematic because measuring success or failure is super tricky. How do you know about innovation that hasn't happened? If in 5 years or 10 years we're using USB-C connectors is that great or does it mean there's some better idea that isn't being taken to market? I'm sure there are subject matter experts who might confidently weigh in on that but could they realistically get this law changed? Even if those experts agreed there was a better solution would the majority of the incumbent players in the space want that solution? Laws like this create a situation where opposition depends upon people missing things they've never had and wanting things that they can't conceive of.
  - riffraff 4y ago
    > By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out? Power plugs (per country), audio jacks, gas plugs. Or do you miss the experience of being able to plug your GM car in GM-Approved™ gas stations?
  - Avamander 4y ago
    > Do we? Yes, EV charging in the states.
Kbelicius 4y ago
> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way (eg "banning encryption"). How can free sharing of ideas stifle innovation?
CharlieDigital 4y ago
Imagine if every house in the US has different types of outlet shapes and sizes and voltages instead of our standard 120v, 15A 20A 3 prong outlets. (Minus specialized sockets like 240v, 30A, etc.) It would be ridiculous to have adapters and specialized plugs for everything for such a basic purpose.
- thatfrenchguy 4y ago
  Electricity in the US is such a mess though, it's so easy to reach the limit of a 120V/15A circuit.
wisnoskij 4y ago
Forcing everyone to change cables creates waste. Apple is teh onyl company that might not have already been using USBC by the time this went into effect, and now all their customers that already had lightning cables and accessories will have to throw them out of get adapters. Not to mention that by then we will probably already be talking about USB-D or whatever is coming next. Maybe the USB counsel can just conglomerate everything under the usbc name so that companies can just use whatever they want. "Micro usbc, its just micro usb but with a new name!". Maybe that is why they have been renaming all their skews every 6 months. I wonder if they will just be able to ship iphones with lightning cables and a usbc adapter and a usbc to lightning port adapter so the customers can just throw out the adapters and use the lightning cables.
- matthew-wegner 4y ago
  Plenty of Apple products already use USB-C. Apple products aside, I'm sure the average household has USB-C cables by now Besides, existing phones are obviously going to stay Lightning. Cables aren't going to be thrown out any earlier than the phones themselves
  - Bilal_io 4y ago
    At this point, I think even the average household in developing countries has USB-C. And that's probably due to entry-level android phone makers choosing to go with it.
shpx 4y ago
And Lightning is physically a better connector.
- timbit42 4y ago
  A better connector would be round.
clouddrover 4y ago
> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices Depends on the device. Standards for EV fast charging are a very good thing. North America has two different plugs and protocols for DC fast charging (three if you count CHAdeMO) and it's a mess. The EU has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo so any brand of CCS charging car can charge on any brand of CCS charging network. That's good common sense and it benefits everyone. Incompatible charging infrastructure doesn't benefit any EV owner. It's a drag on the EV market. Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem. Tesla is (very) slowly changing in North America: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharger-elon-musk-open-network-charging-stations https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg... Rivian still hasn't got the memo. Rivian's chargers are at least CCS but because they're brand exclusive they don't see much use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8 Those chargers could be earning more revenue right now instead of sitting idle. All they have to do is unlock the software.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  > Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem. All new Tesla stations in Europe use CCS and most of the older stations have been retrofitted with CCS connectors in addition to Type 2. I have an adaptor for my 2017 Model S that allows it to use CCS instead of Type 2 and newer cars can be converted so that CCS connectors can be used without adaptors. All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car. So how is Tesla part of the problem?
  - dtech 4y ago
    Relevant to this discussion: Tesla only uses CCS in EU because it was mandated by law, just like USB-C now will be.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car. Yes. You're restating what I have said. Tesla should hurry up and open them all. > So how is Tesla part of the problem? Because Tesla chargers are not open to all brands everywhere. A better question to ask is why is Tesla not the leader in multi-brand charging. Other charging networks have delivered chargers which support all brands of EV with longer cables for more vehicle types and are faster than Tesla's chargers to boot. How can I charge my Volvo truck on Tesla's existing chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA What about my bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY How do I charge my Porsche Taycan on Tesla's chargers at 800 volts instead of this 400 volt business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 How do I charge my BMW without blocking another charger due to Tesla's short-sighted charger design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ Tesla's V4 chargers will apparently have longer cables, but Tesla is still no Alpitronic.
ChrisRR 4y ago
Does no-one remember how there were like 50 different phone connectors in the early 2000s? This is why we all (apart from Apple) settled on one standard
- Lutzb 4y ago
  This so much. This era was defined by vendor lock-in. Getting e.g. a dedicated car phone audio setup was tough decision, since you could not just change the phone. I still have a box of old phones with custom chargers, headsets and data cables. The Nokia barrel plug (different sizes), the Siemens comb style connector, the Ericsson break away type connector, the Motorola two prong, the Bosch connector and some really weird LG/NEC/SAGEM plugs. Good riddance.
- ralfd 4y ago
  Yes, exactly: The market could innovate and develop better connectors. For example Apples Lightning, which is older (and smaller/more robust) than USB-C. Imagine instead the EU mandating micro USB and how we would be forced till the end of times to have a 50% chance to plugging it in wrong. Is USB-C the best connector or form factor we could ever do?
  - ThatPlayer 4y ago
    Maybe not, but it is good enough. "Perfect is the enemy of good" is a phrase I like to keep in mind while programming or making something and can also apply here. Should we wait around for a perfect connector? Or is USB-C as close as we can get as of now?
kennend3 4y ago
> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way You seem unaware that the government regulate a LOT of things and while this has stiffed some innovation, the cost is probably worth it. When was the last time a house burned down due to electrical issues? In the past, prior to standards this was rather common. If you want a general understanding of what things were like prior to "regulation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring Now ask how you would plug an appliance into this mess...

messe 4y ago

I wouldn’t be too concerned. They did it before to standardise on micro USB, in such a way that didn’t stop manufacturers from moving to USB-C. This is really just an update of that same rule.

skohan 4y ago
How did Apple dodge this with micro-USB?
- throwaway744678 4y ago
  A dongle was available.
- danhor 4y ago
  It was not a law, but an agreement (to stop the EU enacting a law) and dongles were sufficient. This is a law and dongles aren't sufficient.
- pimterry 4y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply - they included a dongle that allowed micro-USB charging of iPhones.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

The general principle is wait for the dust to settle and then enforce whatever is the industry majority with an agreed mature tech. Btw the same thing happened with the EV charging (SAE J1772).

sam_lowry_ 4y ago
EV connector is different in EU.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  The principle is the same IEC 62196.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

tgv 4y ago

Thank God nobody ever standardized electrical plugs. I'd hate being able to plug my vacuum cleaner and laptop in the same outlet.

skohan 4y ago
I have traveled to parts of the developing world where standardization hasn't happened and it's a huge mess
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  Yeah, I have bad memories from Italy, too.
  - alanfranz 4y ago
    About Europe, you mean? The problem is not Italy, it’s different EU countries abiding different standards.
    - salex89 4y ago
      Traveling much of Europe (humble brag) the only places where I have seen some noticeable difference is Britain (of course) Italy and Malta. That being said, any remotely modern building or establishment expecting travelers on Malta or Italy has plugs with at least USB-A or the two prong "European" (with the round prongs, don't know the standard name).
    - skohan 4y ago
      Have you seen this outside Italy? Everywhere else in Europe I've always seen the Europlug, it's only Italy where sometimes you have the weird 3-in-a-line plug, at least in Western Europe
      - audunw 4y ago
        Denmark has the smiley face plug. It works fine if you don't need a grounded connection, but still.. they have a lot of sockets that don't follow the EU standard. I think France has the one where the ground pin sticks out? That can be a problem depending on which cable you have. And then there's UK of course, though they're not part of EU anymore.

skohan 4y ago

I am similarly of two minds. As an engineer, I can imagine how legal mandates for technology choices could stifle innovation and make the future of technology worse. But at the same time, I think there may be a place for mandating interface compatibility. To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards? Or where would we be if every country had a handful of competing power grids with different voltages and outlet types? So I am not sure the cable which plugs into our phones is the correct target for standardization, but in spirit I think it's worthwhile to consider how the public good of interoperability should be weighed against a handful of corporations' interest in building technological moats around themselves and their users.

jmull 4y ago
I can “reassure” you: this is unambiguously a bad idea. First, market forces already standardized on two main standards. Second, the interop problem is a $10 cable between wall-wart and device. So the problem solved is a small one. I think this idea got its momentum from years ago when practically every model of phone had a different charger and wall wart. Meanwhile, think about what you lose. Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors? It has existing issues with labeling and capabilities confusion. What about mag-safe-style connectors? Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all and might there not be advantages to not having one? As an aside, ewaste will increase in the short term, of course, as people will have to throw out their lighting stuff and buy USB-C stuff. (Don’t worry, it’s not a lot — small problem, remember.)
- skohan 4y ago
  But you're assuming this USB-C decision is eternal right? Couldn't the problems you raised be solved by having a standards organization which could monitor and update the status quo over time based on the technologies available?
  - jmull 4y ago
    Which already exists -- without EU regulatory processes to encumber them.

lloydatkinson 4y ago

It will end up with the terrible quality fake usb cables and chargers we have today, thanks for the usb organisation not being stricter. Seems hard to find specific types of USB 3/C cables. In some cases they have damaged the connected devices which should be considered a failure of the U part. If anything this will increase the value of official apple chargers because at least those will be well designed.

danhor 4y ago
Even if you're buying from Amazon or AliExpress, there have been very few cases over the last few years of them damaging your device compared to the first years of USB-C. They might still have other issues, but nothing that damages your device.

krageon 4y ago

> stifle innovation We have plenty of free market examples of why "innovation" in the connector space almost always spawns lemons and makes everything worse in the meantime.

hackeraccount 4y ago
Do we? By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out? I find laws like this problematic because measuring success or failure is super tricky. How do you know about innovation that hasn't happened? If in 5 years or 10 years we're using USB-C connectors is that great or does it mean there's some better idea that isn't being taken to market? I'm sure there are subject matter experts who might confidently weigh in on that but could they realistically get this law changed? Even if those experts agreed there was a better solution would the majority of the incumbent players in the space want that solution? Laws like this create a situation where opposition depends upon people missing things they've never had and wanting things that they can't conceive of.
- riffraff 4y ago
  > By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out? Power plugs (per country), audio jacks, gas plugs. Or do you miss the experience of being able to plug your GM car in GM-Approved™ gas stations?
- Avamander 4y ago
  > Do we? Yes, EV charging in the states.

Kbelicius 4y ago

CharlieDigital 4y ago

Imagine if every house in the US has different types of outlet shapes and sizes and voltages instead of our standard 120v, 15A 20A 3 prong outlets. (Minus specialized sockets like 240v, 30A, etc.) It would be ridiculous to have adapters and specialized plugs for everything for such a basic purpose.

thatfrenchguy 4y ago
Electricity in the US is such a mess though, it's so easy to reach the limit of a 120V/15A circuit.

wisnoskij 4y ago

Forcing everyone to change cables creates waste. Apple is teh onyl company that might not have already been using USBC by the time this went into effect, and now all their customers that already had lightning cables and accessories will have to throw them out of get adapters. Not to mention that by then we will probably already be talking about USB-D or whatever is coming next. Maybe the USB counsel can just conglomerate everything under the usbc name so that companies can just use whatever they want. "Micro usbc, its just micro usb but with a new name!". Maybe that is why they have been renaming all their skews every 6 months. I wonder if they will just be able to ship iphones with lightning cables and a usbc adapter and a usbc to lightning port adapter so the customers can just throw out the adapters and use the lightning cables.

matthew-wegner 4y ago
Plenty of Apple products already use USB-C. Apple products aside, I'm sure the average household has USB-C cables by now Besides, existing phones are obviously going to stay Lightning. Cables aren't going to be thrown out any earlier than the phones themselves
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  At this point, I think even the average household in developing countries has USB-C. And that's probably due to entry-level android phone makers choosing to go with it.

shpx 4y ago

And Lightning is physically a better connector.

timbit42 4y ago
A better connector would be round.

clouddrover 4y ago

> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices Depends on the device. Standards for EV fast charging are a very good thing. North America has two different plugs and protocols for DC fast charging (three if you count CHAdeMO) and it's a mess. The EU has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo so any brand of CCS charging car can charge on any brand of CCS charging network. That's good common sense and it benefits everyone. Incompatible charging infrastructure doesn't benefit any EV owner. It's a drag on the EV market. Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem. Tesla is (very) slowly changing in North America: https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharger-elon-musk-open-network-charging-stations https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg... Rivian still hasn't got the memo. Rivian's chargers are at least CCS but because they're brand exclusive they don't see much use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8 Those chargers could be earning more revenue right now instead of sitting idle. All they have to do is unlock the software.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
> Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem. All new Tesla stations in Europe use CCS and most of the older stations have been retrofitted with CCS connectors in addition to Type 2. I have an adaptor for my 2017 Model S that allows it to use CCS instead of Type 2 and newer cars can be converted so that CCS connectors can be used without adaptors. All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car. So how is Tesla part of the problem?
- dtech 4y ago
  Relevant to this discussion: Tesla only uses CCS in EU because it was mandated by law, just like USB-C now will be.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car. Yes. You're restating what I have said. Tesla should hurry up and open them all. > So how is Tesla part of the problem? Because Tesla chargers are not open to all brands everywhere. A better question to ask is why is Tesla not the leader in multi-brand charging. Other charging networks have delivered chargers which support all brands of EV with longer cables for more vehicle types and are faster than Tesla's chargers to boot. How can I charge my Volvo truck on Tesla's existing chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA What about my bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY How do I charge my Porsche Taycan on Tesla's chargers at 800 volts instead of this 400 volt business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 How do I charge my BMW without blocking another charger due to Tesla's short-sighted charger design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ Tesla's V4 chargers will apparently have longer cables, but Tesla is still no Alpitronic.

ChrisRR 4y ago

Does no-one remember how there were like 50 different phone connectors in the early 2000s? This is why we all (apart from Apple) settled on one standard

Lutzb 4y ago
This so much. This era was defined by vendor lock-in. Getting e.g. a dedicated car phone audio setup was tough decision, since you could not just change the phone. I still have a box of old phones with custom chargers, headsets and data cables. The Nokia barrel plug (different sizes), the Siemens comb style connector, the Ericsson break away type connector, the Motorola two prong, the Bosch connector and some really weird LG/NEC/SAGEM plugs. Good riddance.
ralfd 4y ago
Yes, exactly: The market could innovate and develop better connectors. For example Apples Lightning, which is older (and smaller/more robust) than USB-C. Imagine instead the EU mandating micro USB and how we would be forced till the end of times to have a 50% chance to plugging it in wrong. Is USB-C the best connector or form factor we could ever do?
- ThatPlayer 4y ago
  Maybe not, but it is good enough. "Perfect is the enemy of good" is a phrase I like to keep in mind while programming or making something and can also apply here. Should we wait around for a perfect connector? Or is USB-C as close as we can get as of now?

kennend3 4y ago

> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way You seem unaware that the government regulate a LOT of things and while this has stiffed some innovation, the cost is probably worth it. When was the last time a house burned down due to electrical issues? In the past, prior to standards this was rather common. If you want a general understanding of what things were like prior to "regulation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring Now ask how you would plug an appliance into this mess...