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Because men are bullied when they ask for it. This is what Brene Brown found: > Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them

Because men are bullied when they ask for it. This is what Brene Brown found: > Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. I've experienced this firsthand, and I think most men have, with their girlfriend or wife (or even mother or sister). Your value as a male romantic partner relies on you being that "rock," and anything to dispel that notion makes your value plummet. Women, even Margaret Atwood-quoting feminists like my ex, are repulsed by male vulnerability.

qnsi 4y ago
[deleted]
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  I think it is more that many men don't consider the benefits worth the effort. Plenty of men are happy living in an old building playing video games all day. Don't need a lot of money for that. They need a better reward than just a nicer career to consider it worth it.
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    Honestly fellow throwaway, that sounds pretty nice.
    - throwawaysleep 4y ago
      Admittedly, if I end up never having a relationship/family, I could walk away from anything intense in 5-10 years pretty easily.
danielvaughn 4y ago
I’d recount some of my own experiences here, but since my actual name is connected to this account, I’d rather not. But I have also experienced this first-hand, many times throughout my life.
- em-bee 4y ago
  create a throwaway account?
throwaway5959 4y ago
“Don’t Worry Darling” screams this out loud.
cbozeman 4y ago
This is the one and only answer. Every other comment in this thread can be deleted. Many - if not all - of the difficult modern sociological problems we face are rooted in the inability for people to accept that while our technological understanding is, frankly, unfathomable compared to 100,000 years ago, our biology, our neurobiology, etc., is all still running under the software that was developed hundreds of thousands of years ago.
- pddpro 4y ago
  Or as I like to say, our Software might be up to date but our OS and BIOS are still legacy.
  - Diris 4y ago
    This is great. I'm putting this in my favorite comments.
  - I_complete_me 4y ago
    Is your idea that Software could be an analogy for our worldview, OS could be an analogy for instincts and BIOS an analogy for genes or do you mean something entirely different to my interpretation?
    - pddpro 4y ago
      Precisely. There is a (now outdated) model called Truine Brain model which proposes three layers of intelligence: the cortex which is responsible for higher thinking/planning/executive functions, the limbic system responsible for 4Fs/emotions, and the basal gangalia/brainstem responsible for basic functions like movement, homeostasis and etc. It's uncanny how this matches closely with the Software/OS/BIOS analogy.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  I'm skeptical that biology plays a significant role in this, it seems much more likely that it is a purely societal and cultural artefact.
enw 4y ago
As a man I also feel repulsed by it, if it's too much. Even when I am being vulnerable, I unconsciously make sure to stay in the "strong because vulnerable and facing hell" zone instead of the "weak and pathetic cry-baby" zone.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Sadly, I've had a similar experience. I had a friend whose mental health always seemed a little precarious. One time he told me that he'd broken down and just hugged one of his kids and cried. Intellectually, I knew he deserved pity. But my gut reaction was revulsion at showing such weakness to one of his kids. In retrospect, what most bothered me was probably the inversion of caregiving burden between a parent and a young child.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    > I'm retrospect, what most bothered me was probably the inversion of caregiving burden between a parent and a young child. Sorry for going off-thread a little, as I appreciate the subject here is men experiencing negative behaviours when showing vulnerability. But I wrote about the issue of "inversion of caregiving" (good compact phrase) in Digital Vegan in respect to technology. It's become perfectly acceptable for parents/adults to lionise the supposed skills of children around tech. They say things like: "Oh well kids just instinctively know about technology don't they", or feel perfectly happy recounting with a laugh how "My five year old has to show me how to use the TV remote". If adults are too lazy or stupid to understand any technology and its attendant risks, handing it to children under their care is neglect. I think this is part of a wider problem of shrugging abdication of agency under condition of "convenience" worship.
    - ejiblabahaba 4y ago
      I think it's possible to be proud of your children for adapting to modern interfaces more quickly and easily than you, while simultaneously remaining cautious about risks those technologies can present. I don't think the straw-parent in your example needs to know how to work the remote (or the computer) to understand most of the important risks, e.g. of unmoderated content consumption. I'm pretty sure it's still unacceptable in most spheres for parents to admit no boundaries or limitations to TV or internet usage, especially conditioned on age or subject matter. Understanding the technology and understanding its attendant risks aren't completely orthogonal, but neither does one imply the other - or else the kids who "instinctively know about technology" would also instinctively know the risks. On the other hand, it's probably faster and easier for someone who understands the technology to learn about the attendant risks, and understanding the technology may be required to personally validate the risks or to invent the best remediation strategies. But a considerable amount of parenting is, and always has been, received wisdom, for better or worse. I can see an argument to describe "lazy" as neglectful, but I take issue with "stupid": the scope of a parent's best reasonable effort to understand and mitigate technological risks for their children should be conditioned on what level of understanding they can realistically achieve, or else "neglect" is reduced to an IQ test.
John23832 4y ago
Bingo. “Ask for help” and get ignored at best, or stigmatized at worse.
qorrect 4y ago
Also have experienced it first hand. Show real emotion and they immediately start to distance themselves, and stop talking, and physically move away from you.
devwastaken 4y ago
Exactly this. Specifically in the U.S. we have a self righteous moralist problem. People say words about how they want equality. In action they're just following discriminatory culture all the same. It's not new, it's influenced from American Christian culture where the social perception of individuals is more important than the truth. The perception of holiness to buy ones way. In reality the overwhelming majority of those that say it's "okay" for men to be vulnerable and emotional will react negatively when it happens. Unfortunately that in itself is an unacceptable opinion by the moralist because it paints woman in a poor light. Again, caring about perceptions, not the truth. In truth its universal, woman+man relationships just happen to be the majority. It happens in all other forms. It's something about the power dynamic of relationships.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  > It's not new, it's influenced from American Christian culture where the social perception of individuals is more important than the truth. This isn't a uniquely Christian thing, and it's definitely not something that suddenly popped up in the last century. Here's Jesus rebuking the 1st century jews for this exact behavior: “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward." Matthew 6:5 ESV I think this is more of a "human" problem than a uniquely Christian problem.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    The only way I can read that that makes sense is to say that "American Christian" is used to distinguish from actual Christianity. Because indeed, the Bible is extremely explicit, repeatedly and at considerable length, that appearances are either irrelevant or inversely correlated with things that actually matter.
norwalkbear 4y ago
I have experienced this all too well. You have to be an extraordinary man to have an ordinary life these days.
notaslave 4y ago
Same here. My wife calls herself a feminist. Yet, when I cried one time in front of her, instead of comforting me, she told me - stop crying, you are making me angry. Another time, she told me that the only value I bring to her life is 'to provide for our kid until they turn adult'. I don't think we will be together much longer lol.
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  Her treatment of you is absolutely disgusting. She should be told that in those terms, and you should demand an apology.
  - atq2119 4y ago
    While I agree that nobody should have to put up with that sort of treatment, demanding an apology is not going to work. Couple's therapy might help if you manage to find a good one, but frankly chances are low and he should mentally prepare himself to move out and potentially fight for custody.
    - naijaboiler 4y ago
      Or just accept that's his role as man, even though matte modern feminism tries to tell you otherwise
      - atq2119 4y ago
        Some people might be happy with that role, and sure, if it works for them, great! But I do think it's quite reasonable to expect more from life and relationships. Women tend to expect more, and society doesn't tell them not to. It's possible to have a self-consistent worldview that does tell both men and women to expect less, but personally I think that would make for a worse society.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    I'd be curious to hear from an experienced marriage counselor how often this kind of situation can be salvaged.
dleslie 4y ago
Perhaps unrelated, but there's the large problem of unaddressed spousal abuse that victimizes men. Self-reported data from here in Canada[0] shows that men are more likely to experience spousal violence overall, albeit roughly half as likely to experience sexual assault or a serious beating. But there are no shelters for men in most provinces, and many shelters that accept children will reject male children over a certain age. Moreover, based on court-enforced outcomes, men who leave an abusive home face a serious risk of significantly diminished custody and access in the future[1]. The fact is, a lot of Canadian men are living in abusive homes with nowhere to turn and the knowledge that if they leave their children will be left to face their abuser alone. 0: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303/01-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article... 1: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2017/nov02.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2017/nov02.html
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  Violence against men by women isn't socially considered violence.
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    Similarly, circumcision is not regarded with the disgust and horror as FGM is.
    - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
      I spent valuable credits in my degree arguing that it should be. Clearly I didn't make a good argument, as I didn't get a good grade ;)
    - yucky 4y ago
      In all fairness though, these don't really seem comparable considering that FGM is only done to reduce/eliminate sexual pleasure for females and that's not the case for male circumcision.
ericmcer 4y ago
Good point. The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against. It is a bit confusing to me as an adult with a long time relationship, I can't imagine how you would navigate that as a 13 year old. At 13 I was basically doing backflips trying to get girls to notice me lol. It is also possible that all the modern pressures and beliefs won't really override physical attraction. In general if someone is pretty to look at they have a lot of slack personality wise, whether they are a chest thumping mansplainer or an emotional crybaby.
- lostdog 4y ago
  There's good advice for an individual and good advice for a society, and as a young person it's hard to tell these things apart. Good for society: People should not be harassed or mugged when they walk at night. Good advice for an individual: Stay aware of your surroundings and make situational choices about your clothes and behavior. Good for society: Men should also express their feelings, including their bad ones. Good for individuals: Know who is safe to express your feelings to, and who is not. There was a big revelation that maybe we should try to improve society instead of all the victim blaming of the 70s-90s. I think it's great that we focus on perpetrators more than victims, but we forgot to tell individuals that they still live in a imperfect world, and that even though it's not their fault when they get targeted, they could still take action to protect themselves while waiting for society to improve.
  - atq2119 4y ago
    > There's good advice for an individual and good advice for a society, and as a young person it's hard to tell these things apart. This is an awesome way to put it and applies to so many more topics of public debate. Consider as a simple example: Good for society: Close tax loopholes. Good for individuals: Exploit tax loopholes. We should all be mindful that this distinction exists, and acknowledging it openly should be part of healthy debate culture.
- pfisherman 4y ago
  > The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against. I think this is wrong - like 180 degrees wrong. The mode of failure I see most often for men is low EQ - misreading the wants / needs of the woman and delivering the wrong things with no awareness of where they are going wrong. The reason why women find confidence attractive is because low self esteem / insecurity is often the root cause of negative and harmful behaviors. See pride and envy occupying the lowest circles of hell. Many guys totally misread this as women want assholes, rather than incessant approval seeking behavior indicates low self esteem / insecurity which has the potential to make her life hell. It’s not that you can’t be kind to women, you just need to be doing it for the right reasons - because you feel this is the right way to conduct yourself - and not because you are scared that you are unworthy of love or admiration.
rtanks 4y ago
I agree
str8tillin 4y ago
citilife 4y ago
If you act your gender, age and confident you'll be better off in most scenarios. That may sound like a strange statement, but our programming is strong and no matter how much we debate it in the society it doesn't change. We are what we are. We may be able to evolve, but you can't snap your fingers and have that happen in a century. Arguably, I don't see us evolving past it either, as our programming likely gives us some advantage in reproduction. In terms of "helping men" I used to work with troubled youth (13-17yrs); young men need role models and a place in society. They'll ask for help and the role models can help them. They do much better in apprenticeship type roles. I don't really think it can be force, but a bit of encouragement and guidance goes a LONG way. Today our society coddles everyone, young men need responsibility, guidance and hard work. Everyone has the desire to be respected, show them how to fit into society and be respected and they'll follow your lead. Many of the issues we face in society today is we don't have high expectations coupled with mentorship. Sports do this to a degree, but it needs to be through all walks of life. The main issue IMO is that we have removed male and female only spaces and are attempting to homogenize. We also coddle children and young adults to the point they are offended when someone uses their wrong pronoun. It's good to have roles in society it helps optimize and provides guidance to those who need it. It's also good to have a thick skin, so you can roll with the punches and still succeed. Men and women alike are attracted to the traditional roles of the opposite gender because it helps both partner. There's a good reason for that, historically and today. That's not to say other configurations aren't possible, but biologically, societally and economically the traditional roles make sense to most people internally.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  Most people aren't offended when someone accidently uses the wrong pronoun. They do get offended when people purposefully use the wrong pronoun to intentionally offend. Pretending that those are the same thing is part of the problem.
  - ls612 4y ago
    Many people feign offense at benign things to gain power over others.
mattgreenrocks 4y ago
> anything to dispel that notion makes your value plummet The disgusting thing is that if one's value does plummet, that serves as a blank check for the partner to harm the relationship as a passive-aggressive feedback mechanism to discourage subsequent behavior like it, be that withdrawal, or avoidance, or picking fights over inconsequential things. Thus, men should constantly be striving for more value (read: status), or risk losing leverage with those they love. In a sense, projected status anxiety ensures that it is impossible for men to fully escape the evaluative sphere. Internalizing this will age your soul, and not in a good way.
- npc54321 4y ago
- paulcole 4y ago
  > The disgusting thing is that if one's value does plummet A more disgusting thing to me is the idea that people see their partners (or believe their partners see them) as having “value” like they’re a breathing stock ticker symbol.
  - mattgreenrocks 4y ago
    I say value to mean "status," but for either word, I fully agree. Something's profoundly wrong when people put so much importance on what is an externally mediated measure. I don't know what it points to other than a sort of spiritual void, but the status game is one you are statistically almost guaranteed to lose. It is the thing I hate most about my 30s and 40s: the utter seriousness with which status is regarded.
    - quesera 4y ago
      > It is the thing I hate most about my 30s and 40s: the utter seriousness with which status is regarded. There are some sad stories in these threads. I just want to add that not all partners are like this. But the ones we attract in certain parts of our lives are definitely prone to it! When our self-identity (or at least our time and energy) is wrapped up in material success, or job prestige or some other externality, we attract people who agree with us. It's a delicate edge, because most of us want to build, accomplish, achieve something that makes us proud of our efforts, and we dump a lot of that into "work" in our most-eligible years. So if we "succeed", or move toward success, we attract those that see us the same way we imagine that part of ourselves. And then the rest of life starts happening. I want to live in a van and see the national parks! I want to take the modest exit and move to the Caribbean. I want to get a dog and stop running in place in BigCity. I've saved enough and don't want to deal with issue X. Etc. This new status is not always met with the same enthusiasm as the climbing part of our journey. We created the fiction, so maybe it's not completely fair to be disappointed when our focus shifts and theirs does not. (I don't mean to suggest that I know anything about your life, I'm just riffing on your last sentence.)
georgeburdell 4y ago
As a happily married man (I say this only to pre-empt the aspersions of being a frustrated, involuntarily celibate man), I believe modern feminism has some logical inconsistencies, such as the above, to work out if it's to be a sustainable movement. I have my doubts, as fertility rates are higher in more conservative areas of the U.S. [0]. Another major inconsistency in feminism is upholding the career woman ideal, yet women's preference is still that the man should be higher earning or more successful. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fertility_rates.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fer...
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > Another major inconsistency in feminism is upholding the career woman ideal, yet women's preference is still that the man should be higher earning or more successful. But this is not an inconsistency in feminism, this is a discrepancy between feminism and what many women actually want.
  - packetlost 4y ago
    But then it's a movement by a minority of women who profess to speak for a majority of which the demonstrably do not represent
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      >But then it's a movement by a minority of women who profess to speak for a majority of which the demonstrably do not represent I wonder how many analogues to that beyond feminism I can come up to that in a minute?
- gtowey 4y ago
  The thing is, I think we are just in a time of social rediscovery. Everything seems chaotic because there were a lot of repressed people in society who are just now finding the freedom not to hide themselves. Nobody really knows what it means to integrate all these new elements and we are trying to figure it out. Combined with larger geopolitical issues like economic inequality, immigration and climate change it seems like the whole world in in turmoil. My point is that I feel like it's not necessary to hold these groups to the standard of being logically consistent and rational all the time. The movements are still in their infancy. They will make mistakes. It's all experimental right now. We will figure it out, but it may take generations so the best thing to do is just relax and be supportive.
throwawaysleep 4y ago
My mother had cancer when I was in high school. My Dad ended up crying when my grandmother was around over it. My grandmother then told my Mom that she didn't think he was up to being her husband through difficult times. I have a lot of female friends. They will rip their boyfriends apart for vulnerable moments or emotional needs or economic inadequacies. One complained about him having to visit his dying aunt and leaving her alone for a weekend. Another called her boyfriend a loser for not making enough money for them to live in Vancouver proper (an expensive place). Heck, my mother has called my father as loser for "only" making about 250K a year (my parents live in a 1 million person LCOL city).
- spacemadness 4y ago
  This isn’t “normal”, or at least it’s not in my experience. They sound like immature spoiled brats.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    Surprisingly more normal than people realize. Most don’t ever air their dirty laundry like this. You go through this as a man and it reinforces your suppression of feelings and desires to never open up to anyone because of the humiliation. No wonder men kill themselves 4x as often as women.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  Find better people to hang out with. Not everybody is like that. Do all you can to cut that sort of toxic behavior from your life.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Man, I am sorry to say but you have some f**ed up people around you, care to maybe let some of them off your life? Quality over quantity of relationships as in everything else
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Curious how much your mother makes and the girlfriend as well.
agumonkey 4y ago
goes well with the primitive reactions at the apparent foundation of seduction (something I don't like btw) good old triggers are more potent than any progressist concept that popped up in the last century
tksiden 4y ago
at_a_remove 4y ago
If I want to break up with a woman, without me doing the breaking up? I have a moment of vulnerability over something, even allow myself to cry. She'll do the rest. You're allowed to cry when your mother dies or your dog dies. Anything else and you may as well be wearing a dress. The constant encouragement to be vulnerable and express feelings is merely a test to make sure you're still "masculine enough."
- Buttons840 4y ago
  A social hacker! You never had to initiate the hard conversation. Just indulge your feelings a bit, it's even a little therapeutic, and then the burden for ending things is on her.
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    If you want a moment of nastiness, during the Breakup Speech, you whirl around and say, "It's really because I cried over X, isn't it?" and there's this uncomfortable squirm and outright denial, because they will never admit it.
- tsol 4y ago
  >Anything else and you may as well be wearing a dress. I've always found it strange how women wearing men clothes is normal and just a style choice, while men wearing women's clothes is perverse and emasculating. Even many of the pro equality people feel this way
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  I’m not saying it’s fair, but it’s pretty obvious why this is the case. A 200lb man, who has the physical ability kill someone with their bare hands crying over an emotional vulnerability is scary. The issue isn’t “men aren’t allowed to have feelings”, but men are expected to have self-control over how they express themselves.
trane_project 4y ago
I have experienced this first hand as well and will never commit that naive mistake again. See also the responses of women learning their partner is bisexual or their dating racial preferences. Their mating strategy optimizes for status and in the process creates and reinforces the very structures they claim to oppose. What they are really opposing is the negative effects these structures have on them. They are not evil or man-hating, but all of us are ruled by instinct way more than we would like to admit. And the people self aware enough to recognize and avoid reacting to them, specially when they relate to something as important as romantic relationships, are not very common.
- atq2119 4y ago
  To be fair, there are women out there who are consistently feminist and whose revealed relationship preferences match the rhetoric. But of course cherrypicking just the convenient parts of feminism is common, and it's not always easy to tell early on what kind of person the other one is.
andelink 4y ago
Did you read the article? It's about social/educational/economic programs that have profound impact for women but little to no impact for men. Programs that include both men and women, but where men aren't seeing any real improvements from them. It discusses men and women both having the same opportunities, but men are not seizing them like women are, due to what is cited as a lack of drive/ambition/motivation. It mentions that research into understanding this gender gap is not being done, but is paramount for effective program and policy design, and that continuing to spend money on these programs that don't work for half of the population is irresponsible. I don't know if I see the connection to emotional vulnerability in a romantic relationship.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  > Because men are bullied when they ask for it. This is what Brene Brown found: >> Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. How is that relevant? Supposedly men are not good at asking for and receiving help because of their traditional gender role.
ttiurani 4y ago
After reading the replies I believe this dynamic is real, but from my own opposite experiences, not universal. I asked my feminist wife about this and she said the reason she isn't put off by vulnerable men is partly because her father was a sensitive man and traditional gender roles were not enforced by her mother either. And that feminists are not immune to the pathriarchy. So I think this reaction can change but it will take time.
rayiner 4y ago
I come from a conservative Muslim country, and there is no doubt that we’re well behind America in terms of gender equality when considering the whole picture. But I think there are areas where we are distinctly ahead. The women in my family are all highly educated and accomplished. But at the same time, none grew up being fed a narrative that what will make them happy is to find a sensitive man who shares their taste in music. And none believe that. American society by contrast feeds women all these false narratives. And then it leaves them holding the bag—raising children alone, etc.—when ideals don’t match reality.
- em-bee 4y ago
  but the problem is that those ideals are the result of the western model of gender equality. maybe they are false narratives, but the current alternative is going back to the inequality of the past. the question then would be, how does gender equality look like that doesn't rely on these narratives? if on the other hand we assume that these ideals are good, then the problem is not that the narratives are false, but that we haven't yet actually achieved equality.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I think that’s a false dichotomy. First, greater equality today isn’t only, and possibly isn’t even primarily, a function of “ideals” but instead economic change. Women are more equal to men today because “good jobs” involve knowledge work, instead of putting up utility polls are lifting up heavy things on an assembly line. Second, you can have “moral equality” without assuming “fungibility.” My cousin just got married. The wife is brilliant—she’s civil engineer. The aunties are all impressed. But if they have a baby and her priorities shift and she decides she wants to stay home (which happens to many women!) those same aunties will 100% expect my cousin to take up the slack and support the family, because he’s the man. Morally equal, but not fungible.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      yes, that's true, but that is not the equality we seem to want in the west. statistics show that female engineers are still a stark minority in the west. we are far from achieving equality here. in muslim countries and in china there are way more women in those fields. there is a school of thought that believes that the reason for that is because in the east, women can't get equality at home, so they find it at work. whereas in the west, women are expecting to get equality at home and are therefore not looking for it at work. my personal guess is that in the west career is more important to men than family, whereas in the east family matters more, and women only achieve equality in the areas that matter less. traditionally picking up the slack would mean for the man to go earn more money. but women want to keep working. and, this is part of the issue, in middle to lower income families they have to. we have created a situation where a single income is no longer enough to support a family. the economic change is not financial freedom for women as much as a financial dependency on both parents working. and the narrative we are creating and that we seem to want is that men help in the household and with childcare. and that too is happening but only just enough so that everyone supporting that narrative can point to an example, but not as much as everyone thinks. even in households where both parents are working, most of the housework is still done by women.
chengiz 4y ago
This is 100% accurate in my experience. It is good to know that others have also experienced this. At least the more old-fashioned women are honest about their needs. The feminist type pretends to like sensitive men but is disgusted when they open up. If you're a straight man you should never open up to your SO (easier said than done of course).
- atq2119 4y ago
  This is too simplistic. Life is better when you can open up, and there are women who welcome it for real and not just with words. The hard part is that it's something you can only really learn about your partner with certainty once it really matters. So in a way it's actually better to open up early, when the cost of being disappointed isn't too high yet.
988747 4y ago
Women are like rats, first to flee a sinking ship. A man needs male friends, counting on your spouse to be your support system is the biggest mistake man can make.
- em-bee 4y ago
  the problem is that not being able to ask for help also makes finding this kind of friends that can be your support system very difficult. so i have to disagree. i need my partner to be my support system, and i want to be hers. it is still good to have friends, but for me this is the definition of an ideal relationship. a fortress of well-being where both partners support each other.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  My mom is filing for divorce right now and my dad has been entirely financially dependent on her for the past 30 years. He was a homemaker, after all. I have been reflecting on this exact thought (specifically, women are not "loyal" and will abandon a partner that doesn't produce income or has some other shortcoming much more readily than men will). I used the "rats fleeing a sinking ship" metaphor when talking about it with my wife the other day. That isn't to say I don't think they should be divorced. It's just what's on my mind.
- silexia 4y ago
  So don't be a sinking ship.
  - 988747 4y ago
    Tell me that you're a woman without telling me that you're a woman :)
    - silexia 4y ago
      Haha, man here. See other comments.
JamesBarney 4y ago
Yeah I definitely remember the "i didn't marry an emotional man" talk from my wife.
ryanwaggoner 4y ago
As someone who divorced last year and is now in a relationship with a wonderful woman who identifies as a feminist: not all women are like this. I’ve been open and emotional on multiple occasions with my partner, including to the point of crying. I’m open about my doubts, flaws, and weaknesses. It hasn’t diminished her desire or commitment in the slightest. And if it did, I’d much rather lose her than lose myself like I did in my marriage. Living your life behind a mask to earn the approval of someone else is the path to the life of “quiet desperation” that Thoreau wrote about. You’ll never feel loved and accepted for who you are, because you won’t have truly revealed yourself. Why be with someone if you can’t be truly known by them?
throwaway81ADF3 4y ago
Chiming in on a throwaway account to confirm that this behavior toward men who've shown vulnerability is 100% not limited to current or potential romantic partners and may be displayed by supposed friends and family. People you've known for years, maybe for nearly your whole life, can turn and treat you as worthless human trash for having shown yourself to be "less of a man". Maybe they cut you off as a friend. Maybe they fail to call 911 when you need medical attention, neglect you after major surgery, and then gaslight you about it while still making sure to remind you how worthless you are. And people wonder how toxic masculinity perpetuates.
leobg 4y ago
Strongly disagree. Very dangerous conclusion to draw. There is a difference between vulnerability and being “a rock”. Being “a rock” is helpful in terms of being reliable and safe. But repressing emotions and giving the impression that you always are in control is what eventually kills many marriages.
_yb2s 4y ago
Lots of people in this discussion are misunderstanding what is happening here with this dynamic where men "finally have the courage to be vulnerable" but are then immediately seen as unattractive. It's not the vulnerability itself that is the problem- it's that the vulnerability is revealing what is perceived as a huge character flaw: emotional weakness. When guys are admitting that they feel afraid, helpless, scared, etc. it's demonstrating that they are lacking strength, courage, and emotional maturity to deal with hardships constructively. They probably really are lacking these things, and the women didn't realize it before because they kept silent. Ironically, vulnerability is actually one thing women find most attractive in men, as explained in Mark Manson's book models- it is really an impressive and attractive thing when done properly, it shows that you aren't afraid of the woman's rejection. However, to be attractively vulnerable you also need to be strong, brave, and emotionally mature. You can't really fake this, it comes from hard work and life experience. It takes a lot of work and time for most people, and yes, crying over little things might be a valuable first step in being aware of your own emotions and starting to work on these issues. What women are looking for in a vulnerable man, is a man that has overcome some really difficult stuff, and is tough and stable as nails in the face of adversity. He might be upset about something, and share that, but he also has a plan for what he is going to do about it. He isn't much afraid of her, or of sharing his inner feelings and challenges, because he has a lifelong habit of directly facing his fears in a courageous way with circumstances much more difficult. I do share my inner challenges and feelings with my girlfriend, and she finds it attractive. I have also been through some really terrible shit in my life, and always have that in mind that the current challenge is tiny in comparison, and something that will make me even stronger once I overcome it. I also plan to fix the problem myself, and let her know that I have such a plan. Vulnerability revels inner truths about a person. Are those truths about you attractive or unattractive? If your inner truths are unattractive is that her fault or yours?

qnsi 4y ago

[deleted]

throwawaysleep 4y ago
I think it is more that many men don't consider the benefits worth the effort. Plenty of men are happy living in an old building playing video games all day. Don't need a lot of money for that. They need a better reward than just a nicer career to consider it worth it.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Honestly fellow throwaway, that sounds pretty nice.
  - throwawaysleep 4y ago
    Admittedly, if I end up never having a relationship/family, I could walk away from anything intense in 5-10 years pretty easily.

danielvaughn 4y ago

I’d recount some of my own experiences here, but since my actual name is connected to this account, I’d rather not. But I have also experienced this first-hand, many times throughout my life.

em-bee 4y ago
create a throwaway account?

throwaway5959 4y ago

“Don’t Worry Darling” screams this out loud.

cbozeman 4y ago

This is the one and only answer. Every other comment in this thread can be deleted. Many - if not all - of the difficult modern sociological problems we face are rooted in the inability for people to accept that while our technological understanding is, frankly, unfathomable compared to 100,000 years ago, our biology, our neurobiology, etc., is all still running under the software that was developed hundreds of thousands of years ago.

pddpro 4y ago
Or as I like to say, our Software might be up to date but our OS and BIOS are still legacy.
- Diris 4y ago
  This is great. I'm putting this in my favorite comments.
- I_complete_me 4y ago
  Is your idea that Software could be an analogy for our worldview, OS could be an analogy for instincts and BIOS an analogy for genes or do you mean something entirely different to my interpretation?
  - pddpro 4y ago
    Precisely. There is a (now outdated) model called Truine Brain model which proposes three layers of intelligence: the cortex which is responsible for higher thinking/planning/executive functions, the limbic system responsible for 4Fs/emotions, and the basal gangalia/brainstem responsible for basic functions like movement, homeostasis and etc. It's uncanny how this matches closely with the Software/OS/BIOS analogy.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
I'm skeptical that biology plays a significant role in this, it seems much more likely that it is a purely societal and cultural artefact.

enw 4y ago

As a man I also feel repulsed by it, if it's too much. Even when I am being vulnerable, I unconsciously make sure to stay in the "strong because vulnerable and facing hell" zone instead of the "weak and pathetic cry-baby" zone.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
Sadly, I've had a similar experience. I had a friend whose mental health always seemed a little precarious. One time he told me that he'd broken down and just hugged one of his kids and cried. Intellectually, I knew he deserved pity. But my gut reaction was revulsion at showing such weakness to one of his kids. In retrospect, what most bothered me was probably the inversion of caregiving burden between a parent and a young child.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > I'm retrospect, what most bothered me was probably the inversion of caregiving burden between a parent and a young child. Sorry for going off-thread a little, as I appreciate the subject here is men experiencing negative behaviours when showing vulnerability. But I wrote about the issue of "inversion of caregiving" (good compact phrase) in Digital Vegan in respect to technology. It's become perfectly acceptable for parents/adults to lionise the supposed skills of children around tech. They say things like: "Oh well kids just instinctively know about technology don't they", or feel perfectly happy recounting with a laugh how "My five year old has to show me how to use the TV remote". If adults are too lazy or stupid to understand any technology and its attendant risks, handing it to children under their care is neglect. I think this is part of a wider problem of shrugging abdication of agency under condition of "convenience" worship.
  - ejiblabahaba 4y ago
    I think it's possible to be proud of your children for adapting to modern interfaces more quickly and easily than you, while simultaneously remaining cautious about risks those technologies can present. I don't think the straw-parent in your example needs to know how to work the remote (or the computer) to understand most of the important risks, e.g. of unmoderated content consumption. I'm pretty sure it's still unacceptable in most spheres for parents to admit no boundaries or limitations to TV or internet usage, especially conditioned on age or subject matter. Understanding the technology and understanding its attendant risks aren't completely orthogonal, but neither does one imply the other - or else the kids who "instinctively know about technology" would also instinctively know the risks. On the other hand, it's probably faster and easier for someone who understands the technology to learn about the attendant risks, and understanding the technology may be required to personally validate the risks or to invent the best remediation strategies. But a considerable amount of parenting is, and always has been, received wisdom, for better or worse. I can see an argument to describe "lazy" as neglectful, but I take issue with "stupid": the scope of a parent's best reasonable effort to understand and mitigate technological risks for their children should be conditioned on what level of understanding they can realistically achieve, or else "neglect" is reduced to an IQ test.

John23832 4y ago

Bingo. “Ask for help” and get ignored at best, or stigmatized at worse.

qorrect 4y ago

Also have experienced it first hand. Show real emotion and they immediately start to distance themselves, and stop talking, and physically move away from you.

devwastaken 4y ago

Exactly this. Specifically in the U.S. we have a self righteous moralist problem. People say words about how they want equality. In action they're just following discriminatory culture all the same. It's not new, it's influenced from American Christian culture where the social perception of individuals is more important than the truth. The perception of holiness to buy ones way. In reality the overwhelming majority of those that say it's "okay" for men to be vulnerable and emotional will react negatively when it happens. Unfortunately that in itself is an unacceptable opinion by the moralist because it paints woman in a poor light. Again, caring about perceptions, not the truth. In truth its universal, woman+man relationships just happen to be the majority. It happens in all other forms. It's something about the power dynamic of relationships.

_gabe_ 4y ago
> It's not new, it's influenced from American Christian culture where the social perception of individuals is more important than the truth. This isn't a uniquely Christian thing, and it's definitely not something that suddenly popped up in the last century. Here's Jesus rebuking the 1st century jews for this exact behavior: “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward." Matthew 6:5 ESV I think this is more of a "human" problem than a uniquely Christian problem.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  The only way I can read that that makes sense is to say that "American Christian" is used to distinguish from actual Christianity. Because indeed, the Bible is extremely explicit, repeatedly and at considerable length, that appearances are either irrelevant or inversely correlated with things that actually matter.

norwalkbear 4y ago

I have experienced this all too well. You have to be an extraordinary man to have an ordinary life these days.

notaslave 4y ago

Same here. My wife calls herself a feminist. Yet, when I cried one time in front of her, instead of comforting me, she told me - stop crying, you are making me angry. Another time, she told me that the only value I bring to her life is 'to provide for our kid until they turn adult'. I don't think we will be together much longer lol.

mattgreenrocks 4y ago
Her treatment of you is absolutely disgusting. She should be told that in those terms, and you should demand an apology.
- atq2119 4y ago
  While I agree that nobody should have to put up with that sort of treatment, demanding an apology is not going to work. Couple's therapy might help if you manage to find a good one, but frankly chances are low and he should mentally prepare himself to move out and potentially fight for custody.
  - naijaboiler 4y ago
    Or just accept that's his role as man, even though matte modern feminism tries to tell you otherwise
    - atq2119 4y ago
      Some people might be happy with that role, and sure, if it works for them, great! But I do think it's quite reasonable to expect more from life and relationships. Women tend to expect more, and society doesn't tell them not to. It's possible to have a self-consistent worldview that does tell both men and women to expect less, but personally I think that would make for a worse society.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  I'd be curious to hear from an experienced marriage counselor how often this kind of situation can be salvaged.

dleslie 4y ago

Perhaps unrelated, but there's the large problem of unaddressed spousal abuse that victimizes men. Self-reported data from here in Canada[0] shows that men are more likely to experience spousal violence overall, albeit roughly half as likely to experience sexual assault or a serious beating. But there are no shelters for men in most provinces, and many shelters that accept children will reject male children over a certain age. Moreover, based on court-enforced outcomes, men who leave an abusive home face a serious risk of significantly diminished custody and access in the future[1]. The fact is, a lot of Canadian men are living in abusive homes with nowhere to turn and the knowledge that if they leave their children will be left to face their abuser alone. 0: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303/01-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article... 1: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2017/nov02.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2017/nov02.html

throwawaysleep 4y ago
Violence against men by women isn't socially considered violence.
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  Similarly, circumcision is not regarded with the disgust and horror as FGM is.
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    I spent valuable credits in my degree arguing that it should be. Clearly I didn't make a good argument, as I didn't get a good grade ;)
  - yucky 4y ago
    In all fairness though, these don't really seem comparable considering that FGM is only done to reduce/eliminate sexual pleasure for females and that's not the case for male circumcision.

ericmcer 4y ago

Good point. The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against. It is a bit confusing to me as an adult with a long time relationship, I can't imagine how you would navigate that as a 13 year old. At 13 I was basically doing backflips trying to get girls to notice me lol. It is also possible that all the modern pressures and beliefs won't really override physical attraction. In general if someone is pretty to look at they have a lot of slack personality wise, whether they are a chest thumping mansplainer or an emotional crybaby.

lostdog 4y ago
There's good advice for an individual and good advice for a society, and as a young person it's hard to tell these things apart. Good for society: People should not be harassed or mugged when they walk at night. Good advice for an individual: Stay aware of your surroundings and make situational choices about your clothes and behavior. Good for society: Men should also express their feelings, including their bad ones. Good for individuals: Know who is safe to express your feelings to, and who is not. There was a big revelation that maybe we should try to improve society instead of all the victim blaming of the 70s-90s. I think it's great that we focus on perpetrators more than victims, but we forgot to tell individuals that they still live in a imperfect world, and that even though it's not their fault when they get targeted, they could still take action to protect themselves while waiting for society to improve.
- atq2119 4y ago
  > There's good advice for an individual and good advice for a society, and as a young person it's hard to tell these things apart. This is an awesome way to put it and applies to so many more topics of public debate. Consider as a simple example: Good for society: Close tax loopholes. Good for individuals: Exploit tax loopholes. We should all be mindful that this distinction exists, and acknowledging it openly should be part of healthy debate culture.
pfisherman 4y ago
> The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against. I think this is wrong - like 180 degrees wrong. The mode of failure I see most often for men is low EQ - misreading the wants / needs of the woman and delivering the wrong things with no awareness of where they are going wrong. The reason why women find confidence attractive is because low self esteem / insecurity is often the root cause of negative and harmful behaviors. See pride and envy occupying the lowest circles of hell. Many guys totally misread this as women want assholes, rather than incessant approval seeking behavior indicates low self esteem / insecurity which has the potential to make her life hell. It’s not that you can’t be kind to women, you just need to be doing it for the right reasons - because you feel this is the right way to conduct yourself - and not because you are scared that you are unworthy of love or admiration.

rtanks 4y ago

I agree

str8tillin 4y ago

citilife 4y ago

If you act your gender, age and confident you'll be better off in most scenarios. That may sound like a strange statement, but our programming is strong and no matter how much we debate it in the society it doesn't change. We are what we are. We may be able to evolve, but you can't snap your fingers and have that happen in a century. Arguably, I don't see us evolving past it either, as our programming likely gives us some advantage in reproduction. In terms of "helping men" I used to work with troubled youth (13-17yrs); young men need role models and a place in society. They'll ask for help and the role models can help them. They do much better in apprenticeship type roles. I don't really think it can be force, but a bit of encouragement and guidance goes a LONG way. Today our society coddles everyone, young men need responsibility, guidance and hard work. Everyone has the desire to be respected, show them how to fit into society and be respected and they'll follow your lead. Many of the issues we face in society today is we don't have high expectations coupled with mentorship. Sports do this to a degree, but it needs to be through all walks of life. The main issue IMO is that we have removed male and female only spaces and are attempting to homogenize. We also coddle children and young adults to the point they are offended when someone uses their wrong pronoun. It's good to have roles in society it helps optimize and provides guidance to those who need it. It's also good to have a thick skin, so you can roll with the punches and still succeed. Men and women alike are attracted to the traditional roles of the opposite gender because it helps both partner. There's a good reason for that, historically and today. That's not to say other configurations aren't possible, but biologically, societally and economically the traditional roles make sense to most people internally.

amanaplanacanal 4y ago
Most people aren't offended when someone accidently uses the wrong pronoun. They do get offended when people purposefully use the wrong pronoun to intentionally offend. Pretending that those are the same thing is part of the problem.
- ls612 4y ago
  Many people feign offense at benign things to gain power over others.

mattgreenrocks 4y ago

> anything to dispel that notion makes your value plummet The disgusting thing is that if one's value does plummet, that serves as a blank check for the partner to harm the relationship as a passive-aggressive feedback mechanism to discourage subsequent behavior like it, be that withdrawal, or avoidance, or picking fights over inconsequential things. Thus, men should constantly be striving for more value (read: status), or risk losing leverage with those they love. In a sense, projected status anxiety ensures that it is impossible for men to fully escape the evaluative sphere. Internalizing this will age your soul, and not in a good way.

npc54321 4y ago
paulcole 4y ago
> The disgusting thing is that if one's value does plummet A more disgusting thing to me is the idea that people see their partners (or believe their partners see them) as having “value” like they’re a breathing stock ticker symbol.
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  I say value to mean "status," but for either word, I fully agree. Something's profoundly wrong when people put so much importance on what is an externally mediated measure. I don't know what it points to other than a sort of spiritual void, but the status game is one you are statistically almost guaranteed to lose. It is the thing I hate most about my 30s and 40s: the utter seriousness with which status is regarded.
  - quesera 4y ago
    > It is the thing I hate most about my 30s and 40s: the utter seriousness with which status is regarded. There are some sad stories in these threads. I just want to add that not all partners are like this. But the ones we attract in certain parts of our lives are definitely prone to it! When our self-identity (or at least our time and energy) is wrapped up in material success, or job prestige or some other externality, we attract people who agree with us. It's a delicate edge, because most of us want to build, accomplish, achieve something that makes us proud of our efforts, and we dump a lot of that into "work" in our most-eligible years. So if we "succeed", or move toward success, we attract those that see us the same way we imagine that part of ourselves. And then the rest of life starts happening. I want to live in a van and see the national parks! I want to take the modest exit and move to the Caribbean. I want to get a dog and stop running in place in BigCity. I've saved enough and don't want to deal with issue X. Etc. This new status is not always met with the same enthusiasm as the climbing part of our journey. We created the fiction, so maybe it's not completely fair to be disappointed when our focus shifts and theirs does not. (I don't mean to suggest that I know anything about your life, I'm just riffing on your last sentence.)

georgeburdell 4y ago

As a happily married man (I say this only to pre-empt the aspersions of being a frustrated, involuntarily celibate man), I believe modern feminism has some logical inconsistencies, such as the above, to work out if it's to be a sustainable movement. I have my doubts, as fertility rates are higher in more conservative areas of the U.S. [0]. Another major inconsistency in feminism is upholding the career woman ideal, yet women's preference is still that the man should be higher earning or more successful. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fertility_rates.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fer...

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> Another major inconsistency in feminism is upholding the career woman ideal, yet women's preference is still that the man should be higher earning or more successful. But this is not an inconsistency in feminism, this is a discrepancy between feminism and what many women actually want.
- packetlost 4y ago
  But then it's a movement by a minority of women who profess to speak for a majority of which the demonstrably do not represent
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    >But then it's a movement by a minority of women who profess to speak for a majority of which the demonstrably do not represent I wonder how many analogues to that beyond feminism I can come up to that in a minute?
gtowey 4y ago
The thing is, I think we are just in a time of social rediscovery. Everything seems chaotic because there were a lot of repressed people in society who are just now finding the freedom not to hide themselves. Nobody really knows what it means to integrate all these new elements and we are trying to figure it out. Combined with larger geopolitical issues like economic inequality, immigration and climate change it seems like the whole world in in turmoil. My point is that I feel like it's not necessary to hold these groups to the standard of being logically consistent and rational all the time. The movements are still in their infancy. They will make mistakes. It's all experimental right now. We will figure it out, but it may take generations so the best thing to do is just relax and be supportive.

throwawaysleep 4y ago

My mother had cancer when I was in high school. My Dad ended up crying when my grandmother was around over it. My grandmother then told my Mom that she didn't think he was up to being her husband through difficult times. I have a lot of female friends. They will rip their boyfriends apart for vulnerable moments or emotional needs or economic inadequacies. One complained about him having to visit his dying aunt and leaving her alone for a weekend. Another called her boyfriend a loser for not making enough money for them to live in Vancouver proper (an expensive place). Heck, my mother has called my father as loser for "only" making about 250K a year (my parents live in a 1 million person LCOL city).

spacemadness 4y ago
This isn’t “normal”, or at least it’s not in my experience. They sound like immature spoiled brats.
- bradlys 4y ago
  Surprisingly more normal than people realize. Most don’t ever air their dirty laundry like this. You go through this as a man and it reinforces your suppression of feelings and desires to never open up to anyone because of the humiliation. No wonder men kill themselves 4x as often as women.
amanaplanacanal 4y ago
Find better people to hang out with. Not everybody is like that. Do all you can to cut that sort of toxic behavior from your life.
saiya-jin 4y ago
Man, I am sorry to say but you have some f**ed up people around you, care to maybe let some of them off your life? Quality over quantity of relationships as in everything else
throwaway5959 4y ago
Curious how much your mother makes and the girlfriend as well.

agumonkey 4y ago

goes well with the primitive reactions at the apparent foundation of seduction (something I don't like btw) good old triggers are more potent than any progressist concept that popped up in the last century

tksiden 4y ago

at_a_remove 4y ago

If I want to break up with a woman, without me doing the breaking up? I have a moment of vulnerability over something, even allow myself to cry. She'll do the rest. You're allowed to cry when your mother dies or your dog dies. Anything else and you may as well be wearing a dress. The constant encouragement to be vulnerable and express feelings is merely a test to make sure you're still "masculine enough."

Buttons840 4y ago
A social hacker! You never had to initiate the hard conversation. Just indulge your feelings a bit, it's even a little therapeutic, and then the burden for ending things is on her.
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  If you want a moment of nastiness, during the Breakup Speech, you whirl around and say, "It's really because I cried over X, isn't it?" and there's this uncomfortable squirm and outright denial, because they will never admit it.
tsol 4y ago
>Anything else and you may as well be wearing a dress. I've always found it strange how women wearing men clothes is normal and just a style choice, while men wearing women's clothes is perverse and emasculating. Even many of the pro equality people feel this way
oceanplexian 4y ago
I’m not saying it’s fair, but it’s pretty obvious why this is the case. A 200lb man, who has the physical ability kill someone with their bare hands crying over an emotional vulnerability is scary. The issue isn’t “men aren’t allowed to have feelings”, but men are expected to have self-control over how they express themselves.

trane_project 4y ago

I have experienced this first hand as well and will never commit that naive mistake again. See also the responses of women learning their partner is bisexual or their dating racial preferences. Their mating strategy optimizes for status and in the process creates and reinforces the very structures they claim to oppose. What they are really opposing is the negative effects these structures have on them. They are not evil or man-hating, but all of us are ruled by instinct way more than we would like to admit. And the people self aware enough to recognize and avoid reacting to them, specially when they relate to something as important as romantic relationships, are not very common.

atq2119 4y ago
To be fair, there are women out there who are consistently feminist and whose revealed relationship preferences match the rhetoric. But of course cherrypicking just the convenient parts of feminism is common, and it's not always easy to tell early on what kind of person the other one is.

andelink 4y ago

Did you read the article? It's about social/educational/economic programs that have profound impact for women but little to no impact for men. Programs that include both men and women, but where men aren't seeing any real improvements from them. It discusses men and women both having the same opportunities, but men are not seizing them like women are, due to what is cited as a lack of drive/ambition/motivation. It mentions that research into understanding this gender gap is not being done, but is paramount for effective program and policy design, and that continuing to spend money on these programs that don't work for half of the population is irresponsible. I don't know if I see the connection to emotional vulnerability in a romantic relationship.

DangitBobby 4y ago
> Because men are bullied when they ask for it. This is what Brene Brown found: >> Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. How is that relevant? Supposedly men are not good at asking for and receiving help because of their traditional gender role.

ttiurani 4y ago

After reading the replies I believe this dynamic is real, but from my own opposite experiences, not universal. I asked my feminist wife about this and she said the reason she isn't put off by vulnerable men is partly because her father was a sensitive man and traditional gender roles were not enforced by her mother either. And that feminists are not immune to the pathriarchy. So I think this reaction can change but it will take time.

rayiner 4y ago

I come from a conservative Muslim country, and there is no doubt that we’re well behind America in terms of gender equality when considering the whole picture. But I think there are areas where we are distinctly ahead. The women in my family are all highly educated and accomplished. But at the same time, none grew up being fed a narrative that what will make them happy is to find a sensitive man who shares their taste in music. And none believe that. American society by contrast feeds women all these false narratives. And then it leaves them holding the bag—raising children alone, etc.—when ideals don’t match reality.

em-bee 4y ago
but the problem is that those ideals are the result of the western model of gender equality. maybe they are false narratives, but the current alternative is going back to the inequality of the past. the question then would be, how does gender equality look like that doesn't rely on these narratives? if on the other hand we assume that these ideals are good, then the problem is not that the narratives are false, but that we haven't yet actually achieved equality.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I think that’s a false dichotomy. First, greater equality today isn’t only, and possibly isn’t even primarily, a function of “ideals” but instead economic change. Women are more equal to men today because “good jobs” involve knowledge work, instead of putting up utility polls are lifting up heavy things on an assembly line. Second, you can have “moral equality” without assuming “fungibility.” My cousin just got married. The wife is brilliant—she’s civil engineer. The aunties are all impressed. But if they have a baby and her priorities shift and she decides she wants to stay home (which happens to many women!) those same aunties will 100% expect my cousin to take up the slack and support the family, because he’s the man. Morally equal, but not fungible.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    yes, that's true, but that is not the equality we seem to want in the west. statistics show that female engineers are still a stark minority in the west. we are far from achieving equality here. in muslim countries and in china there are way more women in those fields. there is a school of thought that believes that the reason for that is because in the east, women can't get equality at home, so they find it at work. whereas in the west, women are expecting to get equality at home and are therefore not looking for it at work. my personal guess is that in the west career is more important to men than family, whereas in the east family matters more, and women only achieve equality in the areas that matter less. traditionally picking up the slack would mean for the man to go earn more money. but women want to keep working. and, this is part of the issue, in middle to lower income families they have to. we have created a situation where a single income is no longer enough to support a family. the economic change is not financial freedom for women as much as a financial dependency on both parents working. and the narrative we are creating and that we seem to want is that men help in the household and with childcare. and that too is happening but only just enough so that everyone supporting that narrative can point to an example, but not as much as everyone thinks. even in households where both parents are working, most of the housework is still done by women.

chengiz 4y ago

This is 100% accurate in my experience. It is good to know that others have also experienced this. At least the more old-fashioned women are honest about their needs. The feminist type pretends to like sensitive men but is disgusted when they open up. If you're a straight man you should never open up to your SO (easier said than done of course).

atq2119 4y ago
This is too simplistic. Life is better when you can open up, and there are women who welcome it for real and not just with words. The hard part is that it's something you can only really learn about your partner with certainty once it really matters. So in a way it's actually better to open up early, when the cost of being disappointed isn't too high yet.

988747 4y ago

Women are like rats, first to flee a sinking ship. A man needs male friends, counting on your spouse to be your support system is the biggest mistake man can make.

em-bee 4y ago
the problem is that not being able to ask for help also makes finding this kind of friends that can be your support system very difficult. so i have to disagree. i need my partner to be my support system, and i want to be hers. it is still good to have friends, but for me this is the definition of an ideal relationship. a fortress of well-being where both partners support each other.
DangitBobby 4y ago
My mom is filing for divorce right now and my dad has been entirely financially dependent on her for the past 30 years. He was a homemaker, after all. I have been reflecting on this exact thought (specifically, women are not "loyal" and will abandon a partner that doesn't produce income or has some other shortcoming much more readily than men will). I used the "rats fleeing a sinking ship" metaphor when talking about it with my wife the other day. That isn't to say I don't think they should be divorced. It's just what's on my mind.
silexia 4y ago
So don't be a sinking ship.
- 988747 4y ago
  Tell me that you're a woman without telling me that you're a woman :)
  - silexia 4y ago
    Haha, man here. See other comments.

JamesBarney 4y ago

Yeah I definitely remember the "i didn't marry an emotional man" talk from my wife.

ryanwaggoner 4y ago

As someone who divorced last year and is now in a relationship with a wonderful woman who identifies as a feminist: not all women are like this. I’ve been open and emotional on multiple occasions with my partner, including to the point of crying. I’m open about my doubts, flaws, and weaknesses. It hasn’t diminished her desire or commitment in the slightest. And if it did, I’d much rather lose her than lose myself like I did in my marriage. Living your life behind a mask to earn the approval of someone else is the path to the life of “quiet desperation” that Thoreau wrote about. You’ll never feel loved and accepted for who you are, because you won’t have truly revealed yourself. Why be with someone if you can’t be truly known by them?

throwaway81ADF3 4y ago

Chiming in on a throwaway account to confirm that this behavior toward men who've shown vulnerability is 100% not limited to current or potential romantic partners and may be displayed by supposed friends and family. People you've known for years, maybe for nearly your whole life, can turn and treat you as worthless human trash for having shown yourself to be "less of a man". Maybe they cut you off as a friend. Maybe they fail to call 911 when you need medical attention, neglect you after major surgery, and then gaslight you about it while still making sure to remind you how worthless you are. And people wonder how toxic masculinity perpetuates.

leobg 4y ago

Strongly disagree. Very dangerous conclusion to draw. There is a difference between vulnerability and being “a rock”. Being “a rock” is helpful in terms of being reliable and safe. But repressing emotions and giving the impression that you always are in control is what eventually kills many marriages.

_yb2s 4y ago

Lots of people in this discussion are misunderstanding what is happening here with this dynamic where men "finally have the courage to be vulnerable" but are then immediately seen as unattractive. It's not the vulnerability itself that is the problem- it's that the vulnerability is revealing what is perceived as a huge character flaw: emotional weakness. When guys are admitting that they feel afraid, helpless, scared, etc. it's demonstrating that they are lacking strength, courage, and emotional maturity to deal with hardships constructively. They probably really are lacking these things, and the women didn't realize it before because they kept silent. Ironically, vulnerability is actually one thing women find most attractive in men, as explained in Mark Manson's book models- it is really an impressive and attractive thing when done properly, it shows that you aren't afraid of the woman's rejection. However, to be attractively vulnerable you also need to be strong, brave, and emotionally mature. You can't really fake this, it comes from hard work and life experience. It takes a lot of work and time for most people, and yes, crying over little things might be a valuable first step in being aware of your own emotions and starting to work on these issues. What women are looking for in a vulnerable man, is a man that has overcome some really difficult stuff, and is tough and stable as nails in the face of adversity. He might be upset about something, and share that, but he also has a plan for what he is going to do about it. He isn't much afraid of her, or of sharing his inner feelings and challenges, because he has a lifelong habit of directly facing his fears in a courageous way with circumstances much more difficult. I do share my inner challenges and feelings with my girlfriend, and she finds it attractive. I have also been through some really terrible shit in my life, and always have that in mind that the current challenge is tiny in comparison, and something that will make me even stronger once I overcome it. I also plan to fix the problem myself, and let her know that I have such a plan. Vulnerability revels inner truths about a person. Are those truths about you attractive or unattractive? If your inner truths are unattractive is that her fault or yours?