18 ms·

Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

125 points by fffobar 4y ago

hericium 4y ago
> before Moscow sent its troops into Ukraine on Feb. 24. Do we really need to smooth "Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24"?
- scotty79 4y ago
  I guess it's a force of habit from reporting on US instigated wars.
  - davidro80 4y ago
- tokai 4y ago
  I don't see it as smoothing at all. "sent its troops into" is literally the definition of invading. Also the Russo-Ukrainian war started over 8 years ago. Calling the feb. 24. date for day-0 of the invasion is actually smoothing Russians aggregation even more.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ComodoHacker 4y ago
    Troops could be sent for other purposes, though. Like they were sent to Kazakhstan before Ukraine, without invading. So it's kind of smoothing. I'm not sure was it intentional or not.
    - Sakos 4y ago
      Except there's no need to account for that nuance because we know why Russia "sent their troops" to Ukraine. It was an invasion and they started a war.
      - butthatsit 4y ago
        You'd be surprised how many people think the opposite. For example in Slovakia more than half of the public blames Ukraine.
  - hericium 4y ago
    Putin's propaganda during the first hours of war was a rescue operation[1] and you can definitely send troops to help someone. Wording chosen by the Reuters editor leaves unnecessary room for interpretation imo. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30450498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30450498
- aa-jv 4y ago
  Do we really need to embellish reality with trigger-words designed to be as inflammatory as possible? What do you want - even more outrage?
  - Sakos 4y ago
    Since when is the truth a trigger-word? Wtf? They started a war. It's not "triggering" to state the facts.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      The question is, why clamour for more dramatic language when its quite clear that the words used adequately communicate the situation, in the first place? Your outrage won't make the world a more peaceful place - those who skillfully use language to de-escalate, do however. If only that skill were more widespread, we might actually have diplomatic solutions to this problem...
      - Sakos 4y ago
        It's not outrage to point out that it's a war. It's not dramatic to state what it is, that it's a war. And if you think there's a diplomatic solution here possible only through "softer" language, then you haven't been paying attention for the past 30 years, or even just in the past year. We didn't fuck this up. Putin did. He wanted to start a war and he did. It had nothing to do with language used.
        aa-jv 4y ago
        Why do you want to use more violent language about this war than is necessary? Whats your intention behind tone-policing people to be more violent in their language when discussing Russia's aggression? Nobody said it wasn't a war. The whole world knows its a war. The only ones clamouring to make it more of a war, are the ones who stand to profit from yet more, endless war. Is that your intent? If so, consider this: we've had 30 years of this kind of rhetoric, from both sides. We, who do not profit from this war in any way, would benefit from better language being used - by everyone.
- koheripbal 4y ago
  Don't read too much into that. You're thinking more about that phrasing than the author probably did.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    Ok. But that's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?
throwaway4good 4y ago
This is front page news in Denmark. Prime minister says "hard to imagine it happening by random", just short of declaring it a deliberate attack.
- mberning 4y ago
  Alphabet agencies working overtime.
  - o_1 4y ago
    so much for being covert, they aren't too great their job.
    - tokai 4y ago
      How would you blow up a pipeline without anyone noticing?
      - liftm 4y ago
        If nobody notices, did you really blow up the pipeline?
      - baybal2 4y ago
      - roenxi 4y ago
        If there was a 1-month delay between the explosions, the people claiming it was coordinated would look a lot less credible. Particularly with the presence of large numbers of people with stakes in the outcome who will argue that the reality that makes them happiest is real.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - randomcarbloke 4y ago
      You want it to be overt without being explicit, if it looked like an accident it wouldn't be threatening.
IAmGraydon 4y ago
Who would benefit from this?
- hericium 4y ago
  Someone planning to attack someone else.
- tokai 4y ago
  Anyone that wants to keep Germany off Russian gas no matter the developments.
  - jeltz 4y ago
    But who is that? Ukraine should be fine with having Germany buy Russian gas since Germany keeps sending arms and push others to send arms. I don't see why the US would care either now that Germany is finally moving away from Russian gas. And Russia can just close the pipeline in a less destructive way.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      >But who is that? The USA has long wanted to interfere in Germanys' relations with Russia and has done so, over and over, to ensure they are never true allies. So, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the US is behind these attacks.
      - bdg 4y ago
        Feb 7, 2022 > Biden: “If Russia invades -- that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine, again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2,” > Journalist: “But how will you do that exactly, since the project and control of the project is within Germany’s control?” > Biden: “We will, I promise you, we’ll be able to do it,” Biden replied. I don't want to play conspiracy guy, but the statement stuck in my mind since he said it.
        4y ago
exar0815 4y ago
Rupture of the pipes is visible on seismic recordings: https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054550/mag2quake-Sep-26-2022-Sweden-BALTIC-SEA.html https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054...
- ComodoHacker 4y ago
  Does it mean there was an explosion?
  - tokai 4y ago
    The pressure in the pipes went from +100 bar to 7 bar. Depending on your definitions you could call that an explosion i guess.
  - ComodoHacker 4y ago
    Turns out yes, there were explosions: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosio...
- londons_explore 4y ago
  The pipes are typically ~1000 psi. That multiplied by the entire inner volume of a rather long pipe could totally make rather a bang...
  - funnym0nk3y 4y ago
    Which convinietly covers up any explosion signs...
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      I think it would be hard to destroy an undersea pipe in a way that looked 'natural'. The broken ends will be cut out and brought ashore for failure analysis, and they'll soon find out if your explosives bent the pipe inwards first... I think your best bet would be to deliberately snag an anchor around it, and then say 'whoops'.
SanjayMehta 4y ago
Auric Goldfinger: Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action." -- Ian Fleming
- nateburke 4y ago
  In music: One note can show good sound. Two notes can show good intonation. 3 notes can show a sense of rhythm.
aaron695 4y ago
orwin 4y ago
I think the Russian explanation is simple enough and don't believe we have to put tinfoil hat for this. We knew that this would be the result of sanctions on western tech and knowledge. I've met and talked a lot with a Russian/Khazak "oil engineer" (asylum seeker, hosted by my mom) and to be honest, his knowledge in thermodynamics was abyssimal and wouldn't qualify for "system dynamics 201" (loose translation, sorry) in my country. I know there was difficulty with the language but even mathematic objects (tensor specifically, he knew what a matrix was) escaped his knowledge. He was probably a very good plumber and technician, able to repair a lot of mechanical issues (he found work in a garage), but the fundamental seemed very shaky in my western view. I think that if trully skilled workers left, and western monitoring and support are hit by sanctions, any issue like this is very likely to happen on its own and stand to happen more and more as the months pass.
- licebmi__at__ 4y ago
  > I think the Russian explanation is simple enough and don't believe we have to put tinfoil hat for this. How is the russian explanation simple? I mean, we all knew that Putin will pressure Europe with energy in exchange for a blind eye in Ukraine. But now, how can Putin even play that gambit?
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  Do you really think that incompetence or neglect caused three separate pipelines to fail on the same day?
mupuff1234 4y ago
Any shared dependencies between the pipelines? Maybe just a time sensitive maintenance task that was neglected due to current state of affairs?
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  > Maybe just a time sensitive maintenance task that was neglected due to current state of affairs? How can you suggest this with a straight face?
  - mupuff1234 4y ago
    Mostly since I have zero knowledge of the Nordstrom pipelines, that's why I'm wondering if there's any commonality. I assume the current mode of operation is far from the normal one, which probably brings a much higher likely chance of "edge case" malfunctions, but yeah just speculating here.
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      Three of the four "strings", the actual pipes making up Nord Stream 1 and 2, were damaged, and at different spots along their length. This is absolutely sabotage.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  I'm not an expert on the layout of those pipelines, but it's unlikely that catastrophic explosions damaging all three pipes stemmed from the same root maintenance cause. Not impossible without further information, but in general the whole point of having multiple pipelines would be to isolate them from this kind of shared failure.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
samuell 4y ago
Biden himself told they would do it, and "promised they have ways to do it" (from ca 1:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Which means, since this is cloak-and-dagger stuff, we could add to the list of suspects "anyone who could get access to that Pipeline and wants to destabilize relations between the United States and Germany."
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    It doesn't destabilize the relationship between US and Germany one bit - unless evidence comes out that the USA did do this damage - in which case the Germans will probably apologize and kowtow, as they always do when America is on the line ... It does make it hard for Germany and Russia to have energy trade, however. Which makes it easier for the USA to sell its dirty gas in Europe.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      It destabilizes it to the extant that if a bunch of armchair politicos on HN can reason to the conclusion "The likeliest perpetrator is the United States of America," every nation's espionage organization can certainly find that conclusion too, and possibly act on it, for the purposes of framing the US for their own political reasons. I'm reminded of the worm that was injected into NASA servers back in the '80s that eventually made its way into DOE servers (creating a possible nuclear crisis because the DOE deals with two things: energy policy and the posture of the American nuclear response system). Direct initial investigation pointed to the worm originating from servers in France, but further investigation revealed that those servers had been compromised, and the likely origin of the worm was hackers in the Australia / New Zealand area. The likeliest catalyst for the attack: France's blatant destruction of the Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbor. The attack ended up serving two purposes: bloody the nose of the Americans, who were (in the eyes of the attackers) playing fast-and-loose with nuclear payloads on NASA missions; and if their antics were discovered, embarrass the French with how easily their servers had been compromised. Essentially, a double-"don't fuck with us" via cyberspace from the Aussies or New Zealand. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt
LatteLazy 4y ago
Quick Question: Didn't Russia already turn off all of the actual flow for these? I mean technically it was the Russian gas company ~~sighting~~ citing urgent maintenance rather than Putin himself with a big spanner. But either way, flows were at <1% capacity right?
- seren 4y ago
  Nord stream 2 was never operational, Nord stream 1 was in maintenance if I remember correctly. But it raises the question if there are ever going to be operational again..
  - fffobar 4y ago
    It was in "maintenance", as claimed by the Russian end operators. Germany has successfully pressured Canada to send a replacement turbine to Russia (violating sanctions), after which the Russians said that the turbine isn't any good, it's missing some documents and they will not take and install it. Then Scholz decided to take a photo shoot in front of the massive turbine, looking all sad. The Paper Chancellor in full glory :D
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    In a way, it's sort of astonishing how much damage Putin has done to his legacy in Russia with this foolish invasion. One of the most impressive feats of pipeline engineering in the world and his inability to cooperate with other nations has catalyzed its destruction. In some poetic fashion, it makes sense. A pipeline like this is symbolic of interstate cooperation. Not surprising it would not survive the breakdown of such cooperation that he instigated. When a state engages in medieval-style aggression, it can't have nice things.
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    Thanks!
hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993116
squirejons 4y ago
radical_blogger 4y ago
timost 4y ago
I'm curious about the impact of such leaks in terms of CO2 equivalent emissions Another article mentions 117 million cubic meters of natural gaz in Nord stream 2[0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-leak-detected-near-nord-stream-2/ https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-leak-detected-near-nord-...
lakomen 4y ago
- alwayseasy 4y ago
  Yeah, Russian propaganda talking points disguised as an analysis don't really bring value to the discussion.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    Which talking points are those?
    - alwayseasy 4y ago
      The constant repeating of "The US are making money off Europe's back" implying any sanction against Russia is economically irrational for the EU. Like any effective propaganda talking point, it seems to make intuitive sense... but is completely empty and only serves to divide the European public opinion when you look at facts.
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        Is money being made of this situation? Yes, it is. Immense amounts of it - billions and billions of dollars. This is hardly a Russian talking point. But it is true that the US has long fought to keep Europe and Russia from economic alliance, and it is definitely true that it is US foreign policy to interfere with Europes' growth. Europeans understand this of Americas ruling class, even if the American public doesn't.
- fabian2k 4y ago
  The only one pushing for conflict here is Russia, who started an illegal war of aggression and invaded a neighbouring country.
  - stackola 4y ago
    Just because they are *also* pushing for conflict doesn't mean they are the *only* ones.
jl6 4y ago
The only thing that will put this pipeline back into operation is rehabilitation of Russia, which will involve unconditional withdrawal from Ukraine, apology, $350bn of reparations, and a war crimes tribunal.
- stackola 4y ago
  Or a new German government, but your option seems more likely.
  - dividedbyzero 4y ago
    That's within the realm of possibility I guess. The three parties in the current government are struggling quite hard to find a common strategy to manage this crisis, so it's not entirely certain that they'll make it to the next regular elections, and the far left and right have largely positioned themselves in favor of taking both Nord Streams online and appeasing Russia, and that view is apparently also held by part of the conservative electorate, who might drift rightward if the crisis deepens. If there were elections in late winter, who knows how that would turn out, especially for the AFD party on the right.
- gitanovic 4y ago
  It's more likely that hell freezes then
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Possibly related, but already flagged to death. Strange, innit? ;> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32994573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32994573 pointing to: https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054550/mag2quake-Sep-26-2022-Sweden-BALTIC-SEA.html https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054...
- detaro 4y ago
  it's not flagged...
  - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
    Shows as [dead], why else would it? edit: never mind, seen it mentioned elsewhere this thread now. (but still...)
    - detaro 4y ago
      if it were flagged, it would show as [flagged][dead]. Looking at the submission history for the domain, they've all been [dead] for years, so clearly the domain is banned.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
        Interesting. Didn't look for that. But I have to wonder why? At least with uBO nothing suspicious on that site. It looks just 'normal'? Does it always have to be https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/?extent=55.61249,16.30371&extent=58.70834,25.09277 https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/?extent=55.61249... ? It doesn't even show up there, because below 2.5 on the Richter scale.
        detaro 4y ago
        > But I have to wonder why? No idea, certainly the HN spam filter isn't perfect. You can mail the mods and ask about/ask for it to be unbanned, in my experience they appreciate people reporting false positives to them.
r721 4y ago
>The Russian submarine that caught fire and killed 14 may have been designed to cut undersea internet cables >"The Russians talk about these ships in this program doing bathymetric research and deep-ocean research, meaning they do stuff on the sea floor," Bryan Clark, a former US Navy officer and a submarine warfare expert, told Business Insider. "If they are doing research on the sea floor with a military submarine, they are probably also able to interdict or disrupt undersea cabling or other undersea infrastructure, like pipelines." https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-submarine-losharik-undersea-cables-media-speculation-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-submarine-losharik-un... (2019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Losharik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Losharik UPD Thread from a submarine expert: https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1574750260743880710 https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1574750260743880710
- koheripbal 4y ago
  The motive here is obvious. It is to stop any remaining gas shipments from Russia to Germany without formally violating their contracts and providing plausible deniability for future restoration negotiations using the newer Nordstream 2 pipeline which has much larger capacity anyway. Germany has struggled to store enough gas storage for winter. They have told the public they have enough, however those estimates assumed a continued flow along the Nordstream 1 pipeline. I suspect we will see additional oil/gas supply "mystery disruptions" to reduce Europe's willingness to support Ukraine and pressure Ukraine to accept a ceasefire along the existing front (which will defacto annex a big chunk of Ukraine to Russia). It's going to be a cold and politically difficult winter in Europe.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > Germany has struggled to store enough gas storage for winter. They have told the public they have enough, however those estimates assumed a continued flow along the Nordstream 1 pipeline. This isn't true based on what I've read in German and Swedish news. Storage was filling ahead of usual schedule, already having enough to sustain through the winter. What we haven't got, in my understanding, is any buffer room whatsoever. What's your source that knows better than public service news here? Edit: Here's a Bloomberg article about how you're wrong: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is-ready-for-a-winter-without-russian-gas-bnef-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is...
dzhiurgis 4y ago
Great timing to close off gulf of Finland to Russian vessels while “investigation” is going on.
Markoff 4y ago
On related note we had this Sunday evening power outage in big part of Prague, lasting around half an hour (second one in less than 4 months, previous lasted around 40 minutes and was due to some power station equipment failure, some gas insulation or something). Funniest thing is the cause for this Sunday outage - power company spokesman said it was caused by (NOT hot air) balloon crashing into powerlines! So never underestimate coincidence (Bulgarian lottery) and/or incompetence, though it was most likely Americans, if we are serious.
lm28469 4y ago
I bet my left nut that in 50 years we'll learn it was a US operation https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=95 https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=95
- rainworld 4y ago
  Won’t take 50 years.
- perihelions 4y ago
  We actually did do this 40 years ago. Reagan covertly blew up a Soviet gas pipeline supplying Europe in 1982, which was publicized in 2004 when the former Secretary of the Air Force boasted about it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/02/27/reagan-approved-plan-to-sabotage-soviets/a9184eff-47fd-402e-beb2-63970851e130/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/02/27/r... ("Reagan Approved Plan to Sabotage Soviets" (2004)) - "At the time, the United States was attempting to block Western Europe from importing Soviet natural gas. There were also signs that the Soviets were trying to steal a wide variety of Western technology. Then, a KGB insider revealed the specific shopping list and the CIA slipped the flawed software to the Soviets in a way they would not detect it." - "In order to disrupt the Soviet gas supply, its hard currency earnings from the West, and the internal Russian economy, the pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines, and valves was programmed to go haywire, after a decent interval, to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to pipeline joints and welds," Reed writes." Possibly the first software supply-chain attack in history? Before the term even existed.
  - phkahler 4y ago
    You left out the best part: "The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space," he recalls, adding that U.S. satellites picked up the explosion." Also: "When the pipeline exploded, Reed writes, the first reports caused concern in the U.S. military and at the White House. "NORAD feared a missile liftoff from a place where no rockets were known to be based," he said, referring to North American Air Defense Command. "Or perhaps it was the detonation of a small nuclear device." However, satellites did not pick up any telltale signs of a nuclear explosion. "Before these conflicting indicators could turn into an international crisis," he added, "Gus Weiss came down the hall to tell his fellow NSC staffers not to worry."
loxdalen 4y ago
Can anyone inform me why there is gas in both the pipes when they are in maintenance/not yet in use/no gas is being delivered by russia. Do they always have to be filled with gas for some reason?
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  Having empty pipes at the bottom of the sea would basically crush them, unless filled with either water or some high-pressure gas. It would be impossible to get rid of water later, and any other gas except an actual gas would be too complicated, so why not fill it with the thing which it is designed to transport anyway?
  - loxdalen 4y ago
    Understood! Does this mean that this leak will affect the whole pipe or can it be isolated? I assume it will perhaps not crush, but at least fill up with water.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBq5uapC-e0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBq5uapC-e0
funnym0nk3y 4y ago
I don't think this was some kind of psy op to drive a wedge between NATO countries as there aren't any benefits from that in the current situation. The only situation my tin foil hat could imagine this being useful is in the event of much stronger tension (like the constant threat of using nukes). This would need a coordinated reaction in which distrust could be fatal. For supplying weapons or sanctions that distrust is not doing much as politically Germany and its allies are more or less on the same page. However, the blown pipes limit the movement of the German government. It is more stable towards protests if a cold winter occurs as there is no option left to appease Russia as the restrictions in the gas sector aren't a product of a revertible decision anymore. Being cold can't be ignored, which a war in Ukraine can be. In addition, any half-baked compromise Russia could offer accompanied by influencing Germany's opinion with gas isn't an option anymore. In the end, this could even benefit Germany which lacks clear and brave decisions of its leaders. Not deciding if you want to evade the wall you are driving onto right or left eventually leads to crashing into it
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  how does Russia benefit of destroying those pipelines, though?
  - funnym0nk3y 4y ago
    It doesn't. Russia's benefit lies in insecurity and control over Europe's energy supply. This operation however reduces their control and influence. In the short term insecurity rises, but this is a one time thing and lasts until solutions are found, which definitely will be found. Gas prices might be higher, but Russia doesn't profit from them, as they can't send gas to Europe anymore and the prices for China aren't influenced. It benefits however US interests: Germany becomes a more stable partner, no matter how this thing turns out. Currently Russia is blamed, so the German reaction is more severe. In addition, LNG prices are higher, but I don't think that was the main reason for that operation in the first place. Blaming the US, even if their responsibility is certain, in a time of crisis won't happen as a united front against Russia is still needed. The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Poland's interests didn't lead to such a operation. They have even more problems with high gas prices than Germany because they don't have long term contracts with Norway.
lizardactivist 4y ago
Without a doubt US American sabotage. During the days and weeks leading up to Russia's move into Ukraine, the US rhetorized over and over again about Nord Stream. All the time the main issue was that the EU must not buy LNG from Russia, it must agree to USAs "energy dominance" politics and buy LNG from them and only them. This is a way to make sure that when winter comes, the EU has nowhere to go for LNG but to the US. It's getting more and more clear that the one major obstacle to true US hegemony is not Russia or China, it's the EU with its strict principles, laws and regulations, and that the US is working hard to wear down this resistance and force the EU into dependence and coerciveness.
- funnym0nk3y 4y ago
  I wouldn't say that this is a operation for global hegemony or energy dominance. It's simply about preserving political influence in Europe. Unfortunately, I must say, Europe/the EU is not capable of a proper geopolitical strategy. Europe would easily be annihilated by Russian psyops, so in all that misery this brings to the alliance, it's still net positive.
  - morpheos137 4y ago
    From an EU perspective why would peace and trade with Russia be so bad? Clearly US psyops are stronger than anything Russia puts out because EU governments have been persuaded to participate in a crusade in Ukraine against their own economic self interests. Making the EU kowtow to America may be in American interests but it certainly is not in EU interests. I am not sure when this myth of Russia psyop dominance came from. Only seemed to become a thing after Hillary lost the election and Brexit. More likely source of blame for that falls on endogenous populism in reaction to economic and social changes in the last decade or two. Russia was not responsible for bailing out western banks while real wages stagnated and also was not responsible for widespread immigration and others consequences of globalisation and conflict in the middle east and Africa. Reality does not correspond to the social media mythology that Russia has some how infiltrated western politics at a significant scale.
    - 4y ago
scotty79 4y ago
So what's next? Will newly opened Baltic pipe be blown up too by Russia in retaliation for this attack that many people here are suggesting was implemented by USA (directly or indirectly). It makes complete sense to put Europe in deeper hole.
benmmurphy 4y ago
this is also why we can't have nice things. spend billions of dollars on an undersea pipeline and someone will blow it up to achieve a geopolitical objective.
hn2017 4y ago
The amount of propaganda on these Russia related threads is concerning. Especially after this recent news https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/27/23374819/meta-russian-influence-ukraine-war-campaign-propaganda https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/27/23374819/meta-russian-inf...

125 points by fffobar 4y ago

> before Moscow sent its troops into Ukraine on Feb. 24. Do we really need to smooth "Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24"?

scotty79 4y ago
I guess it's a force of habit from reporting on US instigated wars.
- davidro80 4y ago
tokai 4y ago
I don't see it as smoothing at all. "sent its troops into" is literally the definition of invading. Also the Russo-Ukrainian war started over 8 years ago. Calling the feb. 24. date for day-0 of the invasion is actually smoothing Russians aggregation even more.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ComodoHacker 4y ago
  Troops could be sent for other purposes, though. Like they were sent to Kazakhstan before Ukraine, without invading. So it's kind of smoothing. I'm not sure was it intentional or not.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    Except there's no need to account for that nuance because we know why Russia "sent their troops" to Ukraine. It was an invasion and they started a war.
    - butthatsit 4y ago
      You'd be surprised how many people think the opposite. For example in Slovakia more than half of the public blames Ukraine.
- hericium 4y ago
  Putin's propaganda during the first hours of war was a rescue operation[1] and you can definitely send troops to help someone. Wording chosen by the Reuters editor leaves unnecessary room for interpretation imo. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30450498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30450498
aa-jv 4y ago
Do we really need to embellish reality with trigger-words designed to be as inflammatory as possible? What do you want - even more outrage?
- Sakos 4y ago
  Since when is the truth a trigger-word? Wtf? They started a war. It's not "triggering" to state the facts.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    The question is, why clamour for more dramatic language when its quite clear that the words used adequately communicate the situation, in the first place? Your outrage won't make the world a more peaceful place - those who skillfully use language to de-escalate, do however. If only that skill were more widespread, we might actually have diplomatic solutions to this problem...
    - Sakos 4y ago
      It's not outrage to point out that it's a war. It's not dramatic to state what it is, that it's a war. And if you think there's a diplomatic solution here possible only through "softer" language, then you haven't been paying attention for the past 30 years, or even just in the past year. We didn't fuck this up. Putin did. He wanted to start a war and he did. It had nothing to do with language used.
      - aa-jv 4y ago
        Why do you want to use more violent language about this war than is necessary? Whats your intention behind tone-policing people to be more violent in their language when discussing Russia's aggression? Nobody said it wasn't a war. The whole world knows its a war. The only ones clamouring to make it more of a war, are the ones who stand to profit from yet more, endless war. Is that your intent? If so, consider this: we've had 30 years of this kind of rhetoric, from both sides. We, who do not profit from this war in any way, would benefit from better language being used - by everyone.
koheripbal 4y ago
Don't read too much into that. You're thinking more about that phrasing than the author probably did.
- scotty79 4y ago
  Ok. But that's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?

throwaway4good 4y ago

This is front page news in Denmark. Prime minister says "hard to imagine it happening by random", just short of declaring it a deliberate attack.

mberning 4y ago
Alphabet agencies working overtime.
- o_1 4y ago
  so much for being covert, they aren't too great their job.
  - tokai 4y ago
    How would you blow up a pipeline without anyone noticing?
    - liftm 4y ago
      If nobody notices, did you really blow up the pipeline?
    - baybal2 4y ago
    - roenxi 4y ago
      If there was a 1-month delay between the explosions, the people claiming it was coordinated would look a lot less credible. Particularly with the presence of large numbers of people with stakes in the outcome who will argue that the reality that makes them happiest is real.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - randomcarbloke 4y ago
    You want it to be overt without being explicit, if it looked like an accident it wouldn't be threatening.

IAmGraydon 4y ago

Who would benefit from this?

hericium 4y ago
Someone planning to attack someone else.
tokai 4y ago
Anyone that wants to keep Germany off Russian gas no matter the developments.
- jeltz 4y ago
  But who is that? Ukraine should be fine with having Germany buy Russian gas since Germany keeps sending arms and push others to send arms. I don't see why the US would care either now that Germany is finally moving away from Russian gas. And Russia can just close the pipeline in a less destructive way.
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    >But who is that? The USA has long wanted to interfere in Germanys' relations with Russia and has done so, over and over, to ensure they are never true allies. So, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the US is behind these attacks.
    - bdg 4y ago
      Feb 7, 2022 > Biden: “If Russia invades -- that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine, again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2,” > Journalist: “But how will you do that exactly, since the project and control of the project is within Germany’s control?” > Biden: “We will, I promise you, we’ll be able to do it,” Biden replied. I don't want to play conspiracy guy, but the statement stuck in my mind since he said it.
      - 4y ago

exar0815 4y ago

Rupture of the pipes is visible on seismic recordings: https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054550/mag2quake-Sep-26-2022-Sweden-BALTIC-SEA.html https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054...

ComodoHacker 4y ago
Does it mean there was an explosion?
- tokai 4y ago
  The pressure in the pipes went from +100 bar to 7 bar. Depending on your definitions you could call that an explosion i guess.
- ComodoHacker 4y ago
  Turns out yes, there were explosions: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosio...
londons_explore 4y ago
The pipes are typically ~1000 psi. That multiplied by the entire inner volume of a rather long pipe could totally make rather a bang...
- funnym0nk3y 4y ago
  Which convinietly covers up any explosion signs...
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    I think it would be hard to destroy an undersea pipe in a way that looked 'natural'. The broken ends will be cut out and brought ashore for failure analysis, and they'll soon find out if your explosives bent the pipe inwards first... I think your best bet would be to deliberately snag an anchor around it, and then say 'whoops'.

SanjayMehta 4y ago

Auric Goldfinger: Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action." -- Ian Fleming

nateburke 4y ago
In music: One note can show good sound. Two notes can show good intonation. 3 notes can show a sense of rhythm.

aaron695 4y ago

orwin 4y ago

I think the Russian explanation is simple enough and don't believe we have to put tinfoil hat for this. We knew that this would be the result of sanctions on western tech and knowledge. I've met and talked a lot with a Russian/Khazak "oil engineer" (asylum seeker, hosted by my mom) and to be honest, his knowledge in thermodynamics was abyssimal and wouldn't qualify for "system dynamics 201" (loose translation, sorry) in my country. I know there was difficulty with the language but even mathematic objects (tensor specifically, he knew what a matrix was) escaped his knowledge. He was probably a very good plumber and technician, able to repair a lot of mechanical issues (he found work in a garage), but the fundamental seemed very shaky in my western view. I think that if trully skilled workers left, and western monitoring and support are hit by sanctions, any issue like this is very likely to happen on its own and stand to happen more and more as the months pass.

licebmi__at__ 4y ago
> I think the Russian explanation is simple enough and don't believe we have to put tinfoil hat for this. How is the russian explanation simple? I mean, we all knew that Putin will pressure Europe with energy in exchange for a blind eye in Ukraine. But now, how can Putin even play that gambit?
ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
Do you really think that incompetence or neglect caused three separate pipelines to fail on the same day?

mupuff1234 4y ago

Any shared dependencies between the pipelines? Maybe just a time sensitive maintenance task that was neglected due to current state of affairs?

ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
> Maybe just a time sensitive maintenance task that was neglected due to current state of affairs? How can you suggest this with a straight face?
- mupuff1234 4y ago
  Mostly since I have zero knowledge of the Nordstrom pipelines, that's why I'm wondering if there's any commonality. I assume the current mode of operation is far from the normal one, which probably brings a much higher likely chance of "edge case" malfunctions, but yeah just speculating here.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Three of the four "strings", the actual pipes making up Nord Stream 1 and 2, were damaged, and at different spots along their length. This is absolutely sabotage.
shadowgovt 4y ago
I'm not an expert on the layout of those pipelines, but it's unlikely that catastrophic explosions damaging all three pipes stemmed from the same root maintenance cause. Not impossible without further information, but in general the whole point of having multiple pipelines would be to isolate them from this kind of shared failure.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

samuell 4y ago

Biden himself told they would do it, and "promised they have ways to do it" (from ca 1:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=82s

shadowgovt 4y ago
Which means, since this is cloak-and-dagger stuff, we could add to the list of suspects "anyone who could get access to that Pipeline and wants to destabilize relations between the United States and Germany."
- aa-jv 4y ago
  It doesn't destabilize the relationship between US and Germany one bit - unless evidence comes out that the USA did do this damage - in which case the Germans will probably apologize and kowtow, as they always do when America is on the line ... It does make it hard for Germany and Russia to have energy trade, however. Which makes it easier for the USA to sell its dirty gas in Europe.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    It destabilizes it to the extant that if a bunch of armchair politicos on HN can reason to the conclusion "The likeliest perpetrator is the United States of America," every nation's espionage organization can certainly find that conclusion too, and possibly act on it, for the purposes of framing the US for their own political reasons. I'm reminded of the worm that was injected into NASA servers back in the '80s that eventually made its way into DOE servers (creating a possible nuclear crisis because the DOE deals with two things: energy policy and the posture of the American nuclear response system). Direct initial investigation pointed to the worm originating from servers in France, but further investigation revealed that those servers had been compromised, and the likely origin of the worm was hackers in the Australia / New Zealand area. The likeliest catalyst for the attack: France's blatant destruction of the Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbor. The attack ended up serving two purposes: bloody the nose of the Americans, who were (in the eyes of the attackers) playing fast-and-loose with nuclear payloads on NASA missions; and if their antics were discovered, embarrass the French with how easily their servers had been compromised. Essentially, a double-"don't fuck with us" via cyberspace from the Aussies or New Zealand. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt

LatteLazy 4y ago

Quick Question: Didn't Russia already turn off all of the actual flow for these? I mean technically it was the Russian gas company ~~sighting~~ citing urgent maintenance rather than Putin himself with a big spanner. But either way, flows were at <1% capacity right?

seren 4y ago
Nord stream 2 was never operational, Nord stream 1 was in maintenance if I remember correctly. But it raises the question if there are ever going to be operational again..
- fffobar 4y ago
  It was in "maintenance", as claimed by the Russian end operators. Germany has successfully pressured Canada to send a replacement turbine to Russia (violating sanctions), after which the Russians said that the turbine isn't any good, it's missing some documents and they will not take and install it. Then Scholz decided to take a photo shoot in front of the massive turbine, looking all sad. The Paper Chancellor in full glory :D
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  In a way, it's sort of astonishing how much damage Putin has done to his legacy in Russia with this foolish invasion. One of the most impressive feats of pipeline engineering in the world and his inability to cooperate with other nations has catalyzed its destruction. In some poetic fashion, it makes sense. A pipeline like this is symbolic of interstate cooperation. Not surprising it would not survive the breakdown of such cooperation that he instigated. When a state engages in medieval-style aggression, it can't have nice things.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  Thanks!

hoppyhoppy2 4y ago

See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993116

squirejons 4y ago

radical_blogger 4y ago

timost 4y ago

I'm curious about the impact of such leaks in terms of CO2 equivalent emissions Another article mentions 117 million cubic meters of natural gaz in Nord stream 2[0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-leak-detected-near-nord-stream-2/ https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-leak-detected-near-nord-...

lakomen 4y ago

alwayseasy 4y ago
Yeah, Russian propaganda talking points disguised as an analysis don't really bring value to the discussion.
- aa-jv 4y ago
  Which talking points are those?
  - alwayseasy 4y ago
    The constant repeating of "The US are making money off Europe's back" implying any sanction against Russia is economically irrational for the EU. Like any effective propaganda talking point, it seems to make intuitive sense... but is completely empty and only serves to divide the European public opinion when you look at facts.
    - aa-jv 4y ago
      Is money being made of this situation? Yes, it is. Immense amounts of it - billions and billions of dollars. This is hardly a Russian talking point. But it is true that the US has long fought to keep Europe and Russia from economic alliance, and it is definitely true that it is US foreign policy to interfere with Europes' growth. Europeans understand this of Americas ruling class, even if the American public doesn't.
fabian2k 4y ago
The only one pushing for conflict here is Russia, who started an illegal war of aggression and invaded a neighbouring country.
- stackola 4y ago
  Just because they are *also* pushing for conflict doesn't mean they are the *only* ones.

jl6 4y ago

The only thing that will put this pipeline back into operation is rehabilitation of Russia, which will involve unconditional withdrawal from Ukraine, apology, $350bn of reparations, and a war crimes tribunal.

stackola 4y ago
Or a new German government, but your option seems more likely.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  That's within the realm of possibility I guess. The three parties in the current government are struggling quite hard to find a common strategy to manage this crisis, so it's not entirely certain that they'll make it to the next regular elections, and the far left and right have largely positioned themselves in favor of taking both Nord Streams online and appeasing Russia, and that view is apparently also held by part of the conservative electorate, who might drift rightward if the crisis deepens. If there were elections in late winter, who knows how that would turn out, especially for the AFD party on the right.
gitanovic 4y ago
It's more likely that hell freezes then

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Possibly related, but already flagged to death. Strange, innit? ;> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32994573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32994573 pointing to: https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054550/mag2quake-Sep-26-2022-Sweden-BALTIC-SEA.html https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/quake-info/7054...

detaro 4y ago
it's not flagged...
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Shows as [dead], why else would it? edit: never mind, seen it mentioned elsewhere this thread now. (but still...)
  - detaro 4y ago
    if it were flagged, it would show as [flagged][dead]. Looking at the submission history for the domain, they've all been [dead] for years, so clearly the domain is banned.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
      Interesting. Didn't look for that. But I have to wonder why? At least with uBO nothing suspicious on that site. It looks just 'normal'? Does it always have to be https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/?extent=55.61249,16.30371&extent=58.70834,25.09277 https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/?extent=55.61249... ? It doesn't even show up there, because below 2.5 on the Richter scale.
      - detaro 4y ago
        > But I have to wonder why? No idea, certainly the HN spam filter isn't perfect. You can mail the mods and ask about/ask for it to be unbanned, in my experience they appreciate people reporting false positives to them.

r721 4y ago

>The Russian submarine that caught fire and killed 14 may have been designed to cut undersea internet cables >"The Russians talk about these ships in this program doing bathymetric research and deep-ocean research, meaning they do stuff on the sea floor," Bryan Clark, a former US Navy officer and a submarine warfare expert, told Business Insider. "If they are doing research on the sea floor with a military submarine, they are probably also able to interdict or disrupt undersea cabling or other undersea infrastructure, like pipelines." https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-submarine-losharik-undersea-cables-media-speculation-2019-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-submarine-losharik-un... (2019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Losharik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Losharik UPD Thread from a submarine expert: https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1574750260743880710 https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1574750260743880710

koheripbal 4y ago
The motive here is obvious. It is to stop any remaining gas shipments from Russia to Germany without formally violating their contracts and providing plausible deniability for future restoration negotiations using the newer Nordstream 2 pipeline which has much larger capacity anyway. Germany has struggled to store enough gas storage for winter. They have told the public they have enough, however those estimates assumed a continued flow along the Nordstream 1 pipeline. I suspect we will see additional oil/gas supply "mystery disruptions" to reduce Europe's willingness to support Ukraine and pressure Ukraine to accept a ceasefire along the existing front (which will defacto annex a big chunk of Ukraine to Russia). It's going to be a cold and politically difficult winter in Europe.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > Germany has struggled to store enough gas storage for winter. They have told the public they have enough, however those estimates assumed a continued flow along the Nordstream 1 pipeline. This isn't true based on what I've read in German and Swedish news. Storage was filling ahead of usual schedule, already having enough to sustain through the winter. What we haven't got, in my understanding, is any buffer room whatsoever. What's your source that knows better than public service news here? Edit: Here's a Bloomberg article about how you're wrong: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is-ready-for-a-winter-without-russian-gas-bnef-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is...

dzhiurgis 4y ago

Great timing to close off gulf of Finland to Russian vessels while “investigation” is going on.

Markoff 4y ago

On related note we had this Sunday evening power outage in big part of Prague, lasting around half an hour (second one in less than 4 months, previous lasted around 40 minutes and was due to some power station equipment failure, some gas insulation or something). Funniest thing is the cause for this Sunday outage - power company spokesman said it was caused by (NOT hot air) balloon crashing into powerlines! So never underestimate coincidence (Bulgarian lottery) and/or incompetence, though it was most likely Americans, if we are serious.

lm28469 4y ago

I bet my left nut that in 50 years we'll learn it was a US operation https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=95 https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=95

rainworld 4y ago
Won’t take 50 years.
perihelions 4y ago
We actually did do this 40 years ago. Reagan covertly blew up a Soviet gas pipeline supplying Europe in 1982, which was publicized in 2004 when the former Secretary of the Air Force boasted about it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/02/27/reagan-approved-plan-to-sabotage-soviets/a9184eff-47fd-402e-beb2-63970851e130/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/02/27/r... ("Reagan Approved Plan to Sabotage Soviets" (2004)) - "At the time, the United States was attempting to block Western Europe from importing Soviet natural gas. There were also signs that the Soviets were trying to steal a wide variety of Western technology. Then, a KGB insider revealed the specific shopping list and the CIA slipped the flawed software to the Soviets in a way they would not detect it." - "In order to disrupt the Soviet gas supply, its hard currency earnings from the West, and the internal Russian economy, the pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines, and valves was programmed to go haywire, after a decent interval, to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to pipeline joints and welds," Reed writes." Possibly the first software supply-chain attack in history? Before the term even existed.
- phkahler 4y ago
  You left out the best part: "The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space," he recalls, adding that U.S. satellites picked up the explosion." Also: "When the pipeline exploded, Reed writes, the first reports caused concern in the U.S. military and at the White House. "NORAD feared a missile liftoff from a place where no rockets were known to be based," he said, referring to North American Air Defense Command. "Or perhaps it was the detonation of a small nuclear device." However, satellites did not pick up any telltale signs of a nuclear explosion. "Before these conflicting indicators could turn into an international crisis," he added, "Gus Weiss came down the hall to tell his fellow NSC staffers not to worry."

loxdalen 4y ago

Can anyone inform me why there is gas in both the pipes when they are in maintenance/not yet in use/no gas is being delivered by russia. Do they always have to be filled with gas for some reason?

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
Having empty pipes at the bottom of the sea would basically crush them, unless filled with either water or some high-pressure gas. It would be impossible to get rid of water later, and any other gas except an actual gas would be too complicated, so why not fill it with the thing which it is designed to transport anyway?
- loxdalen 4y ago
  Understood! Does this mean that this leak will affect the whole pipe or can it be isolated? I assume it will perhaps not crush, but at least fill up with water.
justsomehnguy 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBq5uapC-e0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBq5uapC-e0

funnym0nk3y 4y ago

I don't think this was some kind of psy op to drive a wedge between NATO countries as there aren't any benefits from that in the current situation. The only situation my tin foil hat could imagine this being useful is in the event of much stronger tension (like the constant threat of using nukes). This would need a coordinated reaction in which distrust could be fatal. For supplying weapons or sanctions that distrust is not doing much as politically Germany and its allies are more or less on the same page. However, the blown pipes limit the movement of the German government. It is more stable towards protests if a cold winter occurs as there is no option left to appease Russia as the restrictions in the gas sector aren't a product of a revertible decision anymore. Being cold can't be ignored, which a war in Ukraine can be. In addition, any half-baked compromise Russia could offer accompanied by influencing Germany's opinion with gas isn't an option anymore. In the end, this could even benefit Germany which lacks clear and brave decisions of its leaders. Not deciding if you want to evade the wall you are driving onto right or left eventually leads to crashing into it

2-718-281-828 4y ago
how does Russia benefit of destroying those pipelines, though?
- funnym0nk3y 4y ago
  It doesn't. Russia's benefit lies in insecurity and control over Europe's energy supply. This operation however reduces their control and influence. In the short term insecurity rises, but this is a one time thing and lasts until solutions are found, which definitely will be found. Gas prices might be higher, but Russia doesn't profit from them, as they can't send gas to Europe anymore and the prices for China aren't influenced. It benefits however US interests: Germany becomes a more stable partner, no matter how this thing turns out. Currently Russia is blamed, so the German reaction is more severe. In addition, LNG prices are higher, but I don't think that was the main reason for that operation in the first place. Blaming the US, even if their responsibility is certain, in a time of crisis won't happen as a united front against Russia is still needed. The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Poland's interests didn't lead to such a operation. They have even more problems with high gas prices than Germany because they don't have long term contracts with Norway.

lizardactivist 4y ago

Without a doubt US American sabotage. During the days and weeks leading up to Russia's move into Ukraine, the US rhetorized over and over again about Nord Stream. All the time the main issue was that the EU must not buy LNG from Russia, it must agree to USAs "energy dominance" politics and buy LNG from them and only them. This is a way to make sure that when winter comes, the EU has nowhere to go for LNG but to the US. It's getting more and more clear that the one major obstacle to true US hegemony is not Russia or China, it's the EU with its strict principles, laws and regulations, and that the US is working hard to wear down this resistance and force the EU into dependence and coerciveness.

funnym0nk3y 4y ago
I wouldn't say that this is a operation for global hegemony or energy dominance. It's simply about preserving political influence in Europe. Unfortunately, I must say, Europe/the EU is not capable of a proper geopolitical strategy. Europe would easily be annihilated by Russian psyops, so in all that misery this brings to the alliance, it's still net positive.
- morpheos137 4y ago
  From an EU perspective why would peace and trade with Russia be so bad? Clearly US psyops are stronger than anything Russia puts out because EU governments have been persuaded to participate in a crusade in Ukraine against their own economic self interests. Making the EU kowtow to America may be in American interests but it certainly is not in EU interests. I am not sure when this myth of Russia psyop dominance came from. Only seemed to become a thing after Hillary lost the election and Brexit. More likely source of blame for that falls on endogenous populism in reaction to economic and social changes in the last decade or two. Russia was not responsible for bailing out western banks while real wages stagnated and also was not responsible for widespread immigration and others consequences of globalisation and conflict in the middle east and Africa. Reality does not correspond to the social media mythology that Russia has some how infiltrated western politics at a significant scale.
  - 4y ago

scotty79 4y ago

So what's next? Will newly opened Baltic pipe be blown up too by Russia in retaliation for this attack that many people here are suggesting was implemented by USA (directly or indirectly). It makes complete sense to put Europe in deeper hole.

benmmurphy 4y ago

this is also why we can't have nice things. spend billions of dollars on an undersea pipeline and someone will blow it up to achieve a geopolitical objective.

hn2017 4y ago

The amount of propaganda on these Russia related threads is concerning. Especially after this recent news https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/27/23374819/meta-russian-influence-ukraine-war-campaign-propaganda https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/27/23374819/meta-russian-inf...