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Layoffs at Canadian tech startups
- seibelj 4y ago
- pluc 4y agoI'll take getting shafted over working in crypto any day of the week
- fruit2020 4y agoBecause of the morals, the risks, or the pressure?
- Waterluvian 4y agoI can’t speak for parent but I’ve been headhunted by crypto companies a lot and my feeling is the same. For me it’s as simple as: I will never work for a company where I cannot immediately and concretely understand the value proposition. Crypto people can frame this as me not being competent if that’s what they need. But I think I’m reasonably smart and usually it just sounds like a fraud.
- seibelj 4y agoHN is the absolute worst place to recruit given the bias against crypto here. But I’ll flip it around and say many startups in all manner of verticals are shaky - Fast.com, innumerable food delivery and fintech, “AI for XYZ” etc. etc. One thing you can use to differentiate firms is the team, the founders, the funders. My company is backed by Point72 / Steve Cohen which does a lot more due diligence than most other firms. YMMV however - I myself would never work for adtech given my distaste. But a lot of HNers love certain FAANGs that data mine you and your children to sell you crap you don’t need. But many choose to disregard their morals and dismount their high horse when $$$ is involved.
- Waterluvian 4y agoMhm. My bias is not exclusive to Crypto. I need the value prop to be obvious. I’ve worked for a company where it wasn’t and nothing makes a job more miserable than pivoting every four months because everyone’s just playing startup and nobody has any clue where to aim.
- seibelj 4y agoTotally fair - my company has high revenues (unlike 99% of crypto) and we are essentially a digital Pokémon card company, and we resell our Pokémon card factory to others white label. It is a very straight forwards and logical business model.
- adventured 4y agoYou surely realize that in the US or Canadian tech cultures, Steven Cohen is only slightly better than being backed by a billionaire Russian oligarch. Cohen is certainly extraordinarily rich and well connected, his reputation isn't going to be positive for techies generally however. That is to say, tech workers are far more likely to be turned off by your pointing that investor out than the other way around (but hey, maybe it does some screening re potential applicants).
- seibelj 4y agoTo work in crypto at a sophisticated firm like Coinbase, Gemini, Circle (my former company) or my own co, it would be a given you believe in markets and the experimental nature of digital assets given… that is the whole reason to work here! I am a libertarian, free thinker, capitalist, etc. which is the standard profile in this industry. I have recruited engineers out of Amazon and Google who said they needed a change of pace from the “moralizing” (use your own judgement). It is a very open discussion, open inquiry industry. So if working for a Cohen company is against your morals, easy to ignore. If that doesn’t bother you, then you passed the first question! Steve is a genius - but not everyone likes Wall Street.
- dehrmann 4y ago> the value proposition You're selling a get rich quick fantasy.
- pluc 4y agoThe people - the intersection of finance and tech attracts some of the most spectacular international-level pro scumbags I've had the misfortune to meet. Then there's about 5% of everyone in the entire space that understands the technology, the rest are just bullshit peddlers along for the ride who can smell a quick buck and an industry ripe for abuse because so few understand what it actually is.
- neonate 4y agohttps://archive.ph/z1QKG https://archive.ph/z1QKG
- mjr00 4y agoThis isn't a uniquely Canadian problem at all, it's just Canada experiencing the pain of the wider tech sector. Ultimately, it's the same issue as what's happened (and happening) in the US: the VC fun money dried up, and it's no longer cool to be an unprofitable business with a lot of "growth potential". Now tech leadership is being forced to balance a budget and figure out a path to profitability instead of just perpetually increasing revenues at negative margins.
- Mikeb85 4y agoLike many other things affecting western countries though, it's worse in Canada since we have lower investment rates, spend less on R&D, have an ultra-risk averse culture, extremely high costs, etc...
- throwawaylinux 4y ago> lower investment rates, spend less on R&D, have an ultra-risk averse culture Why do those make it worse? Lower investment rates means less money to lose, R&D is often trimmed first, and investment should go to lower risk in this kind of environment. And costs shouldn't be much higher than USA. I think the problem is actually the opposite. People say the US is willing to take risks which is why their tech and startup scene is so good. Among the complaints about all other countries trying to work out how to become the "next silicon valley", near the top is almost universally "risk adverse". I think that's backwards though, investments in Canada and other such places in tech startup are very high risk and speculative, because people are just closing their eyes and praying that these fanciful predictions about being the next silicon valley are true and they hit it big, rather than being based on any real evidence or logic. True it's often governments engaging in this reckless risky spending, which seems to make it appear to be "low risk" to other investors. That doesn't make it so though.
- Mikeb85 4y agoHigher investment rate means when prices go down/a recession happens, people invest in new businesses which means a recovery happens quicker and is more robust. Just look at Canada's GDP per capita over time versus the US'. Or the fact our only job growth since the pandemic started has been in government jobs. Our private sector is dying because it's more profitable to simply move money to the US or to put it all into unproductive real estate.
- mkl95 4y agoI'm more interested in hiring freezes, i.e. locking people out of the industry vs forcing them to switch jobs
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoHiring freezes are definitely more sinister. I'll take being laid off over facing endless dead-end prospects. Too bad they usually come hand in hand.
- mkl95 4y agoLayoffs may not even be a bad thing if job mobility is high. Startups lay off a lot of people who have bullshitted their way into their position, members of low ROI teams who can't be easily be transferred somewhere else, quiet quitters, etc. On the other hand struggling to find a job as an experienced engineer is usually a symptom of a sick economy.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoHeck, I've even been almost jealous of the ones who got laid off once, at a company that was starting to circle the drain. They were effectively being paid to job hunt with the severance package.
- supernovae 4y agoI’ve never seen entire industry hiring freezes so i’m not aware of the concern. Would rather stay on job during hiring freeze than he let go. I can sense if i need to bail without being subject to one or another.
- mkl95 4y agoHiring freezes don't have to be industry wide to be problematic. If you are competing with dozens of people for a job, there is a high chance some of them are both a good fit and willing to accept crappier compensation.
- sbarre 4y agoThis part at the end of the article is probably the real true nugget in here: > But implicit in that risk, Mr. Nayyar points out, is a lot of downside. Many executives thought, “but didn’t say out loud, that if demand disappeared or changed course – sometimes even slightly changed course – those people we brought on, it might not make sense to have them around any more. … You’re just a number on the page; whatever happens, happens.” I have no doubt that a lot of tech companies, including Canadian startups like Shopify, hired like mad during the pandemic boom knowing full-well that they would end up laying off a bunch of those new hires once things got "normal" again. A lesson to be learned for anyone taking a job in a fast-growing company is to really think about the value that your specific job brings to the company. What is your direct contribution to the bottom line? Work this math into whatever official comms you get from your employer when trying to think about what your actual job security looks like. That and be prepared for layoffs. Have a couple of months of runway put aside somewhere and don't touch it. Because I think these cycles of boom-then-bust for growth are only going to get more frequent.
- ffggvv 4y ago> A lesson to be learned for anyone taking a job in a fast-growing company is to really think about the value that your specific job brings to the company. Imo the issue usually is that interesting and value bringing work are usually not in alignment at these companies. most companies i’ve worked at, no one wanted to work on ads and found them boring even though they brought in all the revenue. everyone wanted to work on the experimental or shiny new thing which may not have demonstrated value yet. but not sure if it’s worth working on the boring thing just for job safety
- sbarre 4y agoYou're absolutely right, and it's worth thinking this through even before you take a job, if you have that luxury.
- valzam 4y agoWhat I don't understand about this: What's the point of bringing on so many engineers with the expectation of firing many of them? It takes time to get productive and especially when you hire lots of engineers they will probably work on new projects. Spending a lot of money on an engineer and then firing them before they start to really produce value is very odd...
- 3qz 4y agoA “startup” in Canada is just a dozen guys who stay afloat by chasing $50k government grants full time. It’s very good when these go out of business
- eagsalazar2 4y agoI know this doesn't apply to all Canadian startups, but this is definitely a thing too.
- junofan 4y agoHaha the PMs at their pension funds on the other hand… I have heard it gets boring when everyone in a local startup ecosystem is chasing govt grants.
- raverbashing 4y agoThey also chase VC money but yeah. They usually go for the least plausible business models for some reason
- Kye 4y agoIt makes sense. Plausible business models can get normal business loans. Funding what no one else or not enough people are funding is typically the point of a grant.
- mikrl 4y agoOnce I looked into SRED and connected the dots, whenever I heard hypercapitalist talk at work I’d have to bite my tongue.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoSR&ED is just a nice-to-have break on taxes, no?
- throwawaysleep 4y agoI’m not sure of the details, but I worked for a company where SR&ED reporting and grant collecting determined product features.
- cardy31 4y agoCalling Shopify a Canadian Tech Startup is really getting old. At 10k+ employees the term “startup” should really stop being applied to it. It is really big, and many of its execs are from huge American banks. So even “Canadian” may soon cease to be a valid label for it.
- barkingcat 4y agoShopify was also launched in 2006, making it a 16 year old company. While not all startups are young in time-age, calling shopify a "startup" is a misnomer.
- michaelcampbell 4y agoI've seen this a couple times; a startup makes it past whatever threshold you'd consider a startup, but doesn't want to let go of that "culture" or zeitgeist, or whatever romantic notion they had of yore. In one case they were bought, so now they were part of a 75k+ employee behemoth. But still, with only some irony, called themselves "scrappy". In another they're still privately owned, but are over 7 years old, with close to 500 employees, and allegedly #1 in their space. I feel they like to hide behind this "startup" idea because it relieves them of putting on the big-boy pants and accepting that the expense of moving fast being the #1 priority is actually something they're having a hard time paying.
- Gene_Parmesan 4y agoAs a non-SVer, this has always been something that confused me. What is the actual definition for "startup"? It doesn't seem to be tied to age, funding level, employee counts, user counts, revenues, or really anything else at all. Honestly, it seems like a mostly self-selected tag used to indicate culture -- e.g., expectations of working conditions (hours, for instance) that in "normal" business we have long ago realized are actually counter-productive.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- 4y ago
- thomasjudge 4y agoWinter is coming
- zanybear 4y agoThis is the way
- phendrenad2 4y agoTo infinity, and beyond!
- vouaobrasil 4y agoI interviewed at a startup once in Canada. They offered 40K per year (Canadian) and asked late working hours right in the interview process. No thanks...
- hn_throwaway_99 4y agoThere are McDonalds in the US that offer 40k (USD) to entry-level, no-experience workers. With such an insulting salary proposal as you experienced, it's amazing that Canada has any startups at all.
- chaostheory 4y agoIt's probably not a coincidence that I've met many very good Canadian engineers in the US
- somerandomqaguy 4y agoThere were two very talented devs I know that took $11/hr CAD jobs personally. I know of more with rough salaries $40,000 and below. Even me; when I was in QA, my salary was $52,000 for 9 years of experience. And that was after a raise. Like it or not, there's people willing to take those positions. No where near as many as Canadian companies would like, but they are there.
- vic-traill 4y ago> two very talented devs I know that took $11/hr CAD jobs personally When was this? Note that $11/hr CAD is below the current minimum wage of every Canadian province and territory as of June 1 2022 [0] As an aside - what leads to a talented individual doing dev for $11/hr CAD? I'm not able to conjure up a scenario where that is the case other than they were working for their own startup ... ? [0] https://www.retailcouncil.org/resources/quick-facts/minimum-wage-by-province/ https://www.retailcouncil.org/resources/quick-facts/minimum-...
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago
- negamax 4y agoUnpopular opinion with some truth in it. Many of the SWEs and other product people in these companies left at the peak of pandemic due to burnout, but mostly due to cheap money. Many senior leaders cashed out their stock and went into the sunset. Companies responded with mass hiring as money was everywhere. They grossly underestimated the complexity of running an engineering org and now the bill is due. I think until the old guards come back, we will see the pain exacerbate. PS: It's an opinion
- cmrdporcupine 4y agoMost Canadian companies don't want to pay the salaries to have the "old guard." I suspect a lot of people left during COVID not just because they were burnt out but because they could get better pay working remotely for US companies. They better hope we end up in a deep recession, because they're not fit to compete for talent when there's employers out there hiring remote at competitive rates.
- negamax 4y agoThat's exactly the narrative I want to address. Because I have seen this first hand. When the stocks were booming. Old people left. They didn't took another job. They left. Some cashed out $x millions. Lot of indiscriminate hiring happened to puff up the leak. Companies were flushed with money. But that was a failing strategy. Companies can continue to go down that path, it will have further diminishing returns
- cmrdporcupine 4y agoI mean, I did that. I left Google and cashed out. I'm not old, but I'm mid-life. I'm not able to retire. I just couldn't handle the bullshit anymore. But now I'm working again (for less $) because I need the money :-) But TBH the hiring frenzy was happening long before that. When I left (end of last year), I heard Google had hired something like half its staff just during the pandemic period. Not sure if I believe that, but if so, that's crazy. None of those people even saw the inside of the office.
- TopYemen 4y ago
- walrus01 4y agoCanadian tech startups are hilarious. The domestic media likes to play up Hootsuite in Vancouver like it's a big deal. Maybe in the context of Vancouver's size of tech job market... But it's absolutely nothing compared to what exists in Seattle or anywhere in California or places in NY, Texas, etc. The unfortunate lesson that every Canadian working in the tech field will learn is that if you're really talented and experienced, you're going to ultimately be faced with the stark choice of accepting a dramatically lower salary for the privilege of living and working in Vancouver or Toronto, maybe because you have family obligations or can't/won't move to the USA. While you will see your peers who are free to move take jobs at double the salary in USD-equivalent in the US.
- joshlemer 4y agoHonestly fuck Canadian tech companies. The pay is literally half or even a third of what we can earn in the states. The rise of remote work has been such an amazing development for Canadian software developer. Really there isn’t much point in living in a Canadian tech city like Vancouver or Toronto since it makes no sense to work for a Canadian company anymore. Even taking a remote job at any run of the mill non flashy firm in the states will pay more than anyone pays in Canada, so may as well just move out to Winnipeg or Halifax.
- jeromegv 4y agoSome of us enjoy the culture, food and network of living in a large city. There’s a whole world in what your day to day is between living in the 3rd biggest city in US-Canada and living in Winnipeg. Both are fine, but they are different, not interchangeable
- joshlemer 4y agoSure, if you like it for its own sake but I’m just saying that there is no career advantage to living in Toronto rather than Winnipeg now, since I’ll probably never again work for any Canadian company.
- osigurdson 4y agoI feel like this is the first time that we've known with such certainty that a recession is coming in ~6 months.
- kazinator 4y agoWhen are there not layoffs in startups? Startups are a crapshoot; not a sure thing. Startups sputter and fail in the best of times and worst of times. You can go through 30 years of career doing nothing but hopping from one failed startup to another, which can span a bubble or two and a couple of recessions. Software? Most software ever written has been a commercial flop. Not a single customer.
- phendrenad2 4y agoWe're in a recession. Any time there's a recession, people become bearish and want to be paid in cash and not stock options. So it's bad times for startups. The good news is, the startups that make it though this will be the ones where people really made a product they were passionate about. Think Square or Skype.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Jemm 4y agoCompanies using jobs as a profit buffer is truly sociopathic. Yes of course when things get truly bad companies need to lay off staff, but what we are seeing is people being fired to preserve a profit margin and CEOs are massive bonuses.