6 ms·

It's sad to see that fewer and fewer jobs provide enough to have a good life. If I have to point my finger to something it would be housing/land. Housing throg

It's sad to see that fewer and fewer jobs provide enough to have a good life. If I have to point my finger to something it would be housing/land. Housing throghout the west is the instrument that extracts the most from poor and modal income brackets. Software development is above this misery line for now. If we want to live in places where all the employees that support your lifestyle can find meaning and means to a decent life, we have to take care about this. I remember when I was in my small northern Spain faculty, learning about the beginnings of industrialization and urban planning, it was pretty clear to me that there was a sentiment in the ruling class that, for them to have a decent place to live and not being forced to live inside their palaces and houses, social stability was needed. And such goal could only be achieved providing amenities for the common man. It was for the best interest of the ruling class. Nowadays it seems to me that one can move up the payscale and forget about it. But I don't want crime in my neighborhood, nor homeless. I don't want to hear that someone I know lost his job and it's on the verge of hitting the street. A cashier should be able to pay rent, transport, utilities and a decent life.

kqr2 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige Housing in the West due to insufficient development is effectively a zero-sum game. So once people have their share, they do everything they can to maintain it's value. Great HN comment on a recent thread with regards to land and rent-seeking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32961554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32961554
- peterangular 4y ago
  Shelter as an investment vehicle leads to consolidation. And, no one in the capital class is going to address the scarcity as it's a conflict of their interests. Rent in my city has been going insane. At the end of the day this is all just capitalism and voting for your own interests. We optimize for this.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Housing and land as a store of value needs to be done away with. While Japan don't get everything right, I think this is one area in which their attitudes/policies are more aligned with the wellbeing of the masses. There, houses are more like cars in that they start deprecating the moment they're moved into and if anything are seen as a value subtract past a certain age, because it's expected that when you buy a plot of land the house on it will be demolished and a new one will be built in its place. Houses are more tied to families that live in them than they are the land they're built on. This might seem wasteful, but it's kept living costs in the residential outskirts of Japan's urban areas a lot more affordable than they would've been otherwise and also means that housing on average is more up to code, and it drives costs of building down since building is routine instead of something unusual. I would love to see this come to the US, and I say this despite standing to gain from the present system.
amelius 4y ago
> Software development is above this misery line for now. Yeah, the dream may be over when Asia gets a high quality development machine in every home.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Is access to hardware actually the blocker? My observation is that skill, communication and cultural alignment are what puts the West ahead of common outsourcing destinations (at least for Western projects - I would definitely pick a local developer for a local project as their cultural alignment and domain knowledge would be much better than an outsiders'). The problem I see is that access to hardware and educational resources is not enough. I don't believe software engineering as a whole can be taught, there are some things (including unwritten things nobody wants to admit) you only pick up from real-world experience, and some things that have less to do with software and more with culture and the local environment your software will be used in (since software in most cases is there to solve some kind of business problem that might be specific to a certain location or jurisdiction). Lack of real-world experience in the target environment is what's holding the common outsourcing destinations back. Giving free computers to everyone still won't magically make them competitive in our software engineering market.
  - amelius 4y ago
    Availability of better hardware in every home (from a young age) will improve all those things.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      The other problem of "better hardware" is that "better" according to us isn't the same as according to the market. General-purpose computing devices are less and less popular and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of developing countries have better smartphone penetration than computers, partly because smartphones offer better opportunities for rent-seeking and the attention economy where as general-purpose computers hamper those things, so the former are being pushed more and potentially subsidized. This is even a problem in Western countries - a lot of kids/teenagers today feel at home on a phone yet don't even understand the concept of a file. A lot of people got into software engineering by learning it themselves because they had access to a general-purpose computer, since back in the day it was the only computer you could get. Nowadays, a lot of families might be satisfied with a phone, tablet and games console - those offer zero opportunities for learning programming.
peterangular 4y ago
> A cashier should be able to pay rent, transport, utilities and a decent life. Unfortunately there's a huge group of people who will vehemently oppose this as they don't see that job as deserving of basic human dignity (rent, transport, utilities, medical). Not just the ruling class, but normal every day folks poop on these people...?! The older I get the more I'm disgusted at how many people can selectively turn off their empathy for stuff like this. In an equitable society we should take care of each other... I don't understand why a Wally World cashier making a base living wage offends so many people.
- mwint 4y ago
  Today, it seems cashiers mostly exist to fix the self checkout machine when it decides it doesn’t like me anymore. Perhaps we’re in a transition period between the legacy system - cashiers a handling one customer at a time, which is not providing much value to the company - and “cashiers” who are self-checkout-sitters handling 8+ customers at a time, which provides much more value and could bargain for a living wage.
  - peterangular 4y ago
    > could bargain for a living wage That's called collective bargaining and the only way we'll end up there is strong unions. Otherwise, I promise you - most companies will not altruistically ensure their employees are taken care of; exceptions exist like Costco. Someone's going to need to bend their arm, be it a union or the government through regulation. Also I'm not sure I understand your comment. The first sentence feels like you're devaluing the service employee that helps resolve your self-checkout issues? Then, the next paragraph you posit that we're in a transitionary period from a "legacy system" - this just isn't how I see it. From convenience stores, to grocery, etc. there will always be the need for traditional cashiers, along side of self-checkout folks. And, personally - I believe they both deserve a dignified wage that covers their base needs (rent, car, medical, etc) without necessarily having to "bargain for a living wage." IMO - even the most entry-level and lowly of jobs at 40hrs/week should be able to get someone by.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zapataband1 4y ago
I so heavily agree. 'above this misery line for now' is the key. I came from a poor background like OP. I have friends that can't afford homes, constantly getting laid off, and not many members of my family have any retirement plans. And this is in 'the worlds richest country' We can all pretend we will earn enough money for our families to survive, but the reality is those richer than us will try and find away to extract it somewhere down the line. Whether it's inflation, medical bills, or a financial crash that brings your life savings down to zero. Without large-scale changes to society the hyper-concentration of wealth will continue and millions will continue to live butchered lives.
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  The thing about housing is that it happens everywhere in the west (I presume other places too, IDK). In Spain at least, it wasn't always the case that people with low skilled jobs couldn't afford basic stuff. My old brothern could afford an appartment and going out every weekend working in a pizza place when he was in his teens.
  - zapataband1 4y ago
    Same in the US, an old teacher of mine said she put herself through college on a job waiting tables in the 70s. There's very small chance of that now
immigrantheart 4y ago
Sounds good, doesn’t work. Never will. Life is cruel, brutal competition. Ideal utopia like that is a fragile, forced state. Violence, hardships, is like energy and complexity. Can’t be eliminated. It can be suppressed only to find it pops out somewhere else. If a cashier finds out they can make a decent living more will want to be cashier and the cashiers will have less leverage, less salary because they are dime a dozen. This is the reality of this treacherous world. First worlders offload their less desirable work to poorer 2nd class immigrants, poorer countries. Like it or not, all well intentioned Tesla owning, apartment owning, software engineers are there because someone else in society do the dirty work for them with low pay, indirectly.
jimbokun 4y ago
In the US I believe healthcare and education far outstrip housing as increasingly unaffordable costs.
marcosdumay 4y ago
> a sentiment in the ruling class that, for them to have a decent place to live and not being forced to live inside their palaces and houses, social stability was needed. Unfortunately, that sentiment was created with a large and long lasting usage of violence by the people. It would be much better if we get some different way to create it.
UglyToad 4y ago
Unsolicited book recommendation but I saw someone mention "Rethinking the economics of land and housing" recently which serves as a good general primer of the history of and problems with housing. Mainly UK focused but I think it's increasingly the cause of immiseration globally.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
I don't foresee software developers being useless, but I can tell you what I have seen... The big, smart companies are able to leverage highly paid developers better than ever. For example, about 10 years ago, I was working at a company that had 100 devs. They now have 10 highly paid (FAANG+) full time devs + subcontractors and make more money than ever.
abhayhegde 4y ago
Thank you for that comment! As a grad student trying to find my groove in life, I find myself always worried about the job market and the tradeoff I've to pay for imparting meaning to my future job. We definitely need to take care of ensuring a decent life for all professions instead of only software engineers.
paulryanrogers 4y ago
Software engineers are making cashiers obsolete. This too is worrisome if we want jobs to be accessible to people of below average intelligence.

kqr2 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige Housing in the West due to insufficient development is effectively a zero-sum game. So once people have their share, they do everything they can to maintain it's value. Great HN comment on a recent thread with regards to land and rent-seeking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32961554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32961554

peterangular 4y ago
Shelter as an investment vehicle leads to consolidation. And, no one in the capital class is going to address the scarcity as it's a conflict of their interests. Rent in my city has been going insane. At the end of the day this is all just capitalism and voting for your own interests. We optimize for this.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
Housing and land as a store of value needs to be done away with. While Japan don't get everything right, I think this is one area in which their attitudes/policies are more aligned with the wellbeing of the masses. There, houses are more like cars in that they start deprecating the moment they're moved into and if anything are seen as a value subtract past a certain age, because it's expected that when you buy a plot of land the house on it will be demolished and a new one will be built in its place. Houses are more tied to families that live in them than they are the land they're built on. This might seem wasteful, but it's kept living costs in the residential outskirts of Japan's urban areas a lot more affordable than they would've been otherwise and also means that housing on average is more up to code, and it drives costs of building down since building is routine instead of something unusual. I would love to see this come to the US, and I say this despite standing to gain from the present system.

amelius 4y ago

> Software development is above this misery line for now. Yeah, the dream may be over when Asia gets a high quality development machine in every home.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Is access to hardware actually the blocker? My observation is that skill, communication and cultural alignment are what puts the West ahead of common outsourcing destinations (at least for Western projects - I would definitely pick a local developer for a local project as their cultural alignment and domain knowledge would be much better than an outsiders'). The problem I see is that access to hardware and educational resources is not enough. I don't believe software engineering as a whole can be taught, there are some things (including unwritten things nobody wants to admit) you only pick up from real-world experience, and some things that have less to do with software and more with culture and the local environment your software will be used in (since software in most cases is there to solve some kind of business problem that might be specific to a certain location or jurisdiction). Lack of real-world experience in the target environment is what's holding the common outsourcing destinations back. Giving free computers to everyone still won't magically make them competitive in our software engineering market.
- amelius 4y ago
  Availability of better hardware in every home (from a young age) will improve all those things.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    The other problem of "better hardware" is that "better" according to us isn't the same as according to the market. General-purpose computing devices are less and less popular and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of developing countries have better smartphone penetration than computers, partly because smartphones offer better opportunities for rent-seeking and the attention economy where as general-purpose computers hamper those things, so the former are being pushed more and potentially subsidized. This is even a problem in Western countries - a lot of kids/teenagers today feel at home on a phone yet don't even understand the concept of a file. A lot of people got into software engineering by learning it themselves because they had access to a general-purpose computer, since back in the day it was the only computer you could get. Nowadays, a lot of families might be satisfied with a phone, tablet and games console - those offer zero opportunities for learning programming.

peterangular 4y ago

> A cashier should be able to pay rent, transport, utilities and a decent life. Unfortunately there's a huge group of people who will vehemently oppose this as they don't see that job as deserving of basic human dignity (rent, transport, utilities, medical). Not just the ruling class, but normal every day folks poop on these people...?! The older I get the more I'm disgusted at how many people can selectively turn off their empathy for stuff like this. In an equitable society we should take care of each other... I don't understand why a Wally World cashier making a base living wage offends so many people.

mwint 4y ago
Today, it seems cashiers mostly exist to fix the self checkout machine when it decides it doesn’t like me anymore. Perhaps we’re in a transition period between the legacy system - cashiers a handling one customer at a time, which is not providing much value to the company - and “cashiers” who are self-checkout-sitters handling 8+ customers at a time, which provides much more value and could bargain for a living wage.
- peterangular 4y ago
  > could bargain for a living wage That's called collective bargaining and the only way we'll end up there is strong unions. Otherwise, I promise you - most companies will not altruistically ensure their employees are taken care of; exceptions exist like Costco. Someone's going to need to bend their arm, be it a union or the government through regulation. Also I'm not sure I understand your comment. The first sentence feels like you're devaluing the service employee that helps resolve your self-checkout issues? Then, the next paragraph you posit that we're in a transitionary period from a "legacy system" - this just isn't how I see it. From convenience stores, to grocery, etc. there will always be the need for traditional cashiers, along side of self-checkout folks. And, personally - I believe they both deserve a dignified wage that covers their base needs (rent, car, medical, etc) without necessarily having to "bargain for a living wage." IMO - even the most entry-level and lowly of jobs at 40hrs/week should be able to get someone by.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zapataband1 4y ago

I so heavily agree. 'above this misery line for now' is the key. I came from a poor background like OP. I have friends that can't afford homes, constantly getting laid off, and not many members of my family have any retirement plans. And this is in 'the worlds richest country' We can all pretend we will earn enough money for our families to survive, but the reality is those richer than us will try and find away to extract it somewhere down the line. Whether it's inflation, medical bills, or a financial crash that brings your life savings down to zero. Without large-scale changes to society the hyper-concentration of wealth will continue and millions will continue to live butchered lives.

spaniard89277 4y ago
The thing about housing is that it happens everywhere in the west (I presume other places too, IDK). In Spain at least, it wasn't always the case that people with low skilled jobs couldn't afford basic stuff. My old brothern could afford an appartment and going out every weekend working in a pizza place when he was in his teens.
- zapataband1 4y ago
  Same in the US, an old teacher of mine said she put herself through college on a job waiting tables in the 70s. There's very small chance of that now

immigrantheart 4y ago

Sounds good, doesn’t work. Never will. Life is cruel, brutal competition. Ideal utopia like that is a fragile, forced state. Violence, hardships, is like energy and complexity. Can’t be eliminated. It can be suppressed only to find it pops out somewhere else. If a cashier finds out they can make a decent living more will want to be cashier and the cashiers will have less leverage, less salary because they are dime a dozen. This is the reality of this treacherous world. First worlders offload their less desirable work to poorer 2nd class immigrants, poorer countries. Like it or not, all well intentioned Tesla owning, apartment owning, software engineers are there because someone else in society do the dirty work for them with low pay, indirectly.

jimbokun 4y ago

In the US I believe healthcare and education far outstrip housing as increasingly unaffordable costs.

marcosdumay 4y ago

> a sentiment in the ruling class that, for them to have a decent place to live and not being forced to live inside their palaces and houses, social stability was needed. Unfortunately, that sentiment was created with a large and long lasting usage of violence by the people. It would be much better if we get some different way to create it.

UglyToad 4y ago

Unsolicited book recommendation but I saw someone mention "Rethinking the economics of land and housing" recently which serves as a good general primer of the history of and problems with housing. Mainly UK focused but I think it's increasingly the cause of immiseration globally.

isthisthingon99 4y ago

I don't foresee software developers being useless, but I can tell you what I have seen... The big, smart companies are able to leverage highly paid developers better than ever. For example, about 10 years ago, I was working at a company that had 100 devs. They now have 10 highly paid (FAANG+) full time devs + subcontractors and make more money than ever.

abhayhegde 4y ago

Thank you for that comment! As a grad student trying to find my groove in life, I find myself always worried about the job market and the tradeoff I've to pay for imparting meaning to my future job. We definitely need to take care of ensuring a decent life for all professions instead of only software engineers.

paulryanrogers 4y ago

Software engineers are making cashiers obsolete. This too is worrisome if we want jobs to be accessible to people of below average intelligence.