15 ms·

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching defa

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an app every time I open a web version on my phone, my work laptop has 1 active notification in system settings for a year because I didn't enable iCloud backup. I'm not sure what's the solution here. I stick to the apps I use because I know what I'm doing, but so many users will just click "yes" when shown a pop-up. On the other hand, the built-in integrations provide value (e.g. it's better that people use and save random passwords in Keychain than using the same one everywhere). I feel it's always a cat-and-mouse game where the big tech is punished after they've already gained a lot, so they win anyway.

weikju 4y ago
Regarding keychain for password filling, you can choose to disable it in the settings -> passwords -> options. It’s selected by default but if you tap it it will deselect it.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  It would be nice if it disabled itself when another password manager is installed...
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    Many of us use more than one (especially shared use with work) and the default behavior seems correct.
    - themadturk 4y ago
      I actually use both Keychain and LastPass. They are more or less in synch. I need LastPass (or at least another non-Keychain alternative) because I don't just work in the Apple ecosystem, but I use Keychain as well because it is very convenient when I'm on an Apple device.
  - blooalien 4y ago
    Or at least asked you outright when installing a new one; "Please choose a default app to perform this function: Password Management" and then show you a list of currently installed ones (+ the newly installed one of course)…
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Problem is, lots of users have work and personal passwords in different apps.
  - oreilles 4y ago
    Keychain is opt-in, users choose wether they want to use it or not when configuring their iPhone for the first time.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      Not in my experience. I never turn it on (because I want to use Bitwarden), but Safari always offers to save passwords unless I manually disable it.
      - JimDabell 4y ago
        There are three different things here: - The keychain is an essential part of macOS and iOS; if an application wants to securely save data then that is the interface it uses. This is not optional because a huge proportion of applications would break if it were removed. - iCloud Keychain is the feature of iCloud that syncs your keychain to iCloud. iCloud itself is opt-in, and this particular feature of iCloud is opt-in as well, I think, or at the very least optional even if you use iCloud. - Safari has a built-in password manager, like every other browser these days. This saves to the keychain, whether that’s synced or not.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Oh, please don't! I use both 1Password and keychain for different purposes, and I want access to both. I definitely don't want keychain silently disabling itself just because I installed 1Password!
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    There are people who have their personal passwords in iCloud Keychain, and have work credentials/keys in 1Password.
ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago
Go to Settings (Win+I) -> System -> Notifications & actions [ ] Show me the Windows welcome experience after updates ... [ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device ... [ ] Get tips, tricks, ...
- philipov 4y ago
  what's the corresponding setting on an iphone? I have the same permanent notification because I refused to use icloud.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  just use Linux you get none of this nonsense
  - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
    This.
  - dmonitor 4y ago
    - svnpenn 4y ago
      > Wow, zealot much? someone makes a single, half sentence including the word Linux, and now they are a Zealot? Calm down dude.
      - pipeline_peak 4y ago
        Telling someone they should personally use Linux to avoid technical problems is kind of annoying lol.
      - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
        Telling someone to just use Linux comes from a position of privilege. Not everyone is tech savvy (no, I don't care about your grandma being able to write her own video drivers) and many people must use software that's not available on Linux. No, the open source version isn't the same thing and saying "just use WINE" is once again coming from a position of privilege. Overall, telling people to just use Linux is one that lacks empathy for individual circumstances.
cm2187 4y ago
Does the default browser matter that much? I mean how often do you click on a link outside of a browser?
- kaslai 4y ago
  Every time I click a link in email, IRC, Slack, Discord... At least 100+ times a day, easily.
- Osmose 4y ago
  On desktop there's emails, chat apps, etc. On mobile the default browser is often used for the webview within apps, e.g. on Android I have Firefox doing the rendering for webpages inside other apps' UI, which means I can block ads thanks the uBlock Origin. It happens all the time, for lots of people.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    Mobile is different. But on a desktop, most people use webmails, and many chat apps are web based. I barely click any link outside of a browser on a desktop.
    - kadoban 4y ago
      I click on links all the time from email (not everyone uses webmail), console, IDE, etc. Enough that yes, it very much matters. Even if not that many links happen, there's 0% chance you wouldn't end up by default using whatever browser it is that opens when you click one.
- dmonitor 4y ago
  You know that handy dandy search bar that Windows has decided will occupy your taskbar?
- ht85 4y ago
  You're right, it doesn't matter, they spend so much time and take so many risks (and pay so much in fines) to push their own settings for absolutely no reason.
bastardoperator 4y ago
So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?
- btown 4y ago
  I think the deeper question is: Are you truly being allowed to opt out if you can't disable (or aren't ever prompted to disable without knowing an arcane set of menus) the UI elements (e.g. the aforementioned prompts on password fields, or the prompt to install an app whenever opening the mobile web version of a site) that serve as an advertisement for the specific service? To be sure, this isn't just restricted to "please install this" dark patterns, and in certain ways it's been central to the ad-supported business model ever since the first television ad was shown on a network channel. But arguably we shouldn't give any of these examples credit for truthfully being "opt out."
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  I guess if you define "forced" as "completely 100% impossible to avoid or prevent" then yes. But I think it's reasonable to say that "forced" is acceptable shorthand for "coerced by dark patterns in such a way that 99% of actual users will end up doing what the vendor wants whether they want to or not".
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    You get prompted once on Windows unless you use Edge again. I don't think that would be considered force either. Force would be like a prompt on every reboot or whenever you opened Firefox.
    - ht85 4y ago
      That's not true. Major patches all have some dialog full of dark pattern suggesting you browse with the most secure, bestest browser. Within the last year I've had multiple family / friends ask me how to get back to their normal browser, not knowing why Edge was now launching by default whenever they clicked a link. Edge even has special behavior to show you the same bullshit when you try to download another browser [1] [2]. But no worries, they might get a slap on the wrist for it. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-edge-chrome-2008/ https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-edge-chrome-2008/ [2] https://www.debugpoint.com/edge-messages-controversy/ https://www.debugpoint.com/edge-messages-controversy/
osel 4y ago
You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling. It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Apple has become a parody of itself. A decade ago they were mocking Windows for the abundance of notifications. And now...
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Try the new Safari!
    - sbf501 4y ago
      "Try Apple Arcade for Three Months Free" Inside the *CONTROL PANEL* of the latest iOS.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  Honestly that sounds more like a dark pattern (advertising "notifications" you can't dismiss) + what they would consider a bug (dismissing the adware on installation start instead of finish).
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  It’s a straight up manipulation of people who don’t know the trick. They should be shamed for it
ouid 4y ago
Its not really a game of cat and mouse. Law enforcement can seek penalties sufficient to prevent the behavior from proliferating.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  And lobbyist groups can prevent, that those fines are too heavy.
oreilles 4y ago
Keychain is opt-in. If you have it configured on your iPhone, it's because you accepted it when configuring your iPhone for the first time. You had to choice to refuse it - and you still have the possibility to disable it in your iPhone settings.
- poglet 4y ago
  It's unclear how it works, I received a prompt in Firefox to save my password, and I thought that it was the Firefox browser that would be saving my password however, it turned out to be keychain. Now the keychain message pops on all the time, I will have a look in the settings to see how to disable it.
footlose_3815 4y ago
[dead]
ht85 4y ago
The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bullshit. Github new PR review UI is great on paper yet completely useless to review large PR because of performance issues. It took me one month to upgrade a zoom account to pro because the checkout would just show a blank page. Oh and I can't stay signed in on zoom.us because I disable "Functional Cookies", yet that's the only website that's ever had an issue, and I'm not using a hardened setup, just vanilla FF. So much for the modern, developer and open source-friendly narrative.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. Heh, try KDE's KRunner. I type 'kt' and it matches ktorrent. But if I type 'kto' it switches to matching "Desktop 8". 'ktor' once again matches ktorrent.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    That sounds about like m experience trying to open intellij in windows.
  - LtWorf 4y ago
    Sounds like you want trabucco! https://github.com/ltworf/trabucco https://github.com/ltworf/trabucco
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    That's a common autocomplete behaviour. It's trying to be helpful. If you actually wanted ktorrent, you probably would have selected ktorrent on 'kt'. By typing another letter you're hinting you might want something other than ktorrent. Not sure if I agree with the behaviour, but I understand it.
rlpb 4y ago
It's also impossible to set up someone less technical with an alternative. The platform will keep prompting them incessantly and in various different ways, and sooner or later they'll switch or activate something by mistake. It really needs to be possible to say "no means no". But somehow, continuously nagging seems to have become acceptable.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  Not entirely true, but they certainly don't make it simple and I don't think the government will care because they benefit from browsers trying to revert people out of privacy enhancements.
avereveard 4y ago
Also there was an uptake in integrations that open edge irregardless of what your default browser is, like start menu search results if you happen to have web search enabled in it.
causality0 4y ago
I wish I could just mail Microsoft a check and a note that says "I am not a tech ignoramus, stop treating me like your side bitch" and get the same Windows experience I was enjoying a decade ago.
- speed_spread 4y ago
  You can't do that because it's not about money. It's about power.
- executesorder66 4y ago
  So stop using windows then. The more you use their stuff the more you enable them to pull this kind of crap.
musicale 4y ago
> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field It is worth noting that KeyChain was introduced in Mac OS 8.6 in 1999, and has been part of every version of macOS since then, as well as every version of iOS ever. It's basically the user credential subsystem for Apple operating systems. As I understand it, 1Password came out in 2006. When I looked at it last, it seemed that 1Password didn't interoperate well with KeyChain and also required a subscription - decisions which I found unappealing.
judge2020 4y ago
> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. It's a system app. You also didn't explicitly install the TV app yet here we are. Settings -> Passwords -> Password Options -> uncheck iCloud Passwords & Keychain
- graftak 4y ago
  When looking for it I went to Settings -> Safari -> Autofill which I’d expect to have it’s own setting for this.

weikju 4y ago

Regarding keychain for password filling, you can choose to disable it in the settings -> passwords -> options. It’s selected by default but if you tap it it will deselect it.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
It would be nice if it disabled itself when another password manager is installed...
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  Many of us use more than one (especially shared use with work) and the default behavior seems correct.
  - themadturk 4y ago
    I actually use both Keychain and LastPass. They are more or less in synch. I need LastPass (or at least another non-Keychain alternative) because I don't just work in the Apple ecosystem, but I use Keychain as well because it is very convenient when I'm on an Apple device.
- blooalien 4y ago
  Or at least asked you outright when installing a new one; "Please choose a default app to perform this function: Password Management" and then show you a list of currently installed ones (+ the newly installed one of course)…
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Problem is, lots of users have work and personal passwords in different apps.
- oreilles 4y ago
  Keychain is opt-in, users choose wether they want to use it or not when configuring their iPhone for the first time.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    Not in my experience. I never turn it on (because I want to use Bitwarden), but Safari always offers to save passwords unless I manually disable it.
    - JimDabell 4y ago
      There are three different things here: - The keychain is an essential part of macOS and iOS; if an application wants to securely save data then that is the interface it uses. This is not optional because a huge proportion of applications would break if it were removed. - iCloud Keychain is the feature of iCloud that syncs your keychain to iCloud. iCloud itself is opt-in, and this particular feature of iCloud is opt-in as well, I think, or at the very least optional even if you use iCloud. - Safari has a built-in password manager, like every other browser these days. This saves to the keychain, whether that’s synced or not.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Oh, please don't! I use both 1Password and keychain for different purposes, and I want access to both. I definitely don't want keychain silently disabling itself just because I installed 1Password!
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  There are people who have their personal passwords in iCloud Keychain, and have work credentials/keys in 1Password.

ThatMedicIsASpy 4y ago

Go to Settings (Win+I) -> System -> Notifications & actions [ ] Show me the Windows welcome experience after updates ... [ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device ... [ ] Get tips, tricks, ...

philipov 4y ago
what's the corresponding setting on an iphone? I have the same permanent notification because I refused to use icloud.
emkoemko 4y ago
just use Linux you get none of this nonsense
- hunter-gatherer 4y ago
  This.
- dmonitor 4y ago
  - svnpenn 4y ago
    > Wow, zealot much? someone makes a single, half sentence including the word Linux, and now they are a Zealot? Calm down dude.
    - pipeline_peak 4y ago
      Telling someone they should personally use Linux to avoid technical problems is kind of annoying lol.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      Telling someone to just use Linux comes from a position of privilege. Not everyone is tech savvy (no, I don't care about your grandma being able to write her own video drivers) and many people must use software that's not available on Linux. No, the open source version isn't the same thing and saying "just use WINE" is once again coming from a position of privilege. Overall, telling people to just use Linux is one that lacks empathy for individual circumstances.

cm2187 4y ago

Does the default browser matter that much? I mean how often do you click on a link outside of a browser?

kaslai 4y ago
Every time I click a link in email, IRC, Slack, Discord... At least 100+ times a day, easily.
Osmose 4y ago
On desktop there's emails, chat apps, etc. On mobile the default browser is often used for the webview within apps, e.g. on Android I have Firefox doing the rendering for webpages inside other apps' UI, which means I can block ads thanks the uBlock Origin. It happens all the time, for lots of people.
- cm2187 4y ago
  Mobile is different. But on a desktop, most people use webmails, and many chat apps are web based. I barely click any link outside of a browser on a desktop.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    I click on links all the time from email (not everyone uses webmail), console, IDE, etc. Enough that yes, it very much matters. Even if not that many links happen, there's 0% chance you wouldn't end up by default using whatever browser it is that opens when you click one.
dmonitor 4y ago
You know that handy dandy search bar that Windows has decided will occupy your taskbar?
ht85 4y ago
You're right, it doesn't matter, they spend so much time and take so many risks (and pay so much in fines) to push their own settings for absolutely no reason.

bastardoperator 4y ago

So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?

btown 4y ago
I think the deeper question is: Are you truly being allowed to opt out if you can't disable (or aren't ever prompted to disable without knowing an arcane set of menus) the UI elements (e.g. the aforementioned prompts on password fields, or the prompt to install an app whenever opening the mobile web version of a site) that serve as an advertisement for the specific service? To be sure, this isn't just restricted to "please install this" dark patterns, and in certain ways it's been central to the ad-supported business model ever since the first television ad was shown on a network channel. But arguably we shouldn't give any of these examples credit for truthfully being "opt out."
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
I guess if you define "forced" as "completely 100% impossible to avoid or prevent" then yes. But I think it's reasonable to say that "forced" is acceptable shorthand for "coerced by dark patterns in such a way that 99% of actual users will end up doing what the vendor wants whether they want to or not".
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  You get prompted once on Windows unless you use Edge again. I don't think that would be considered force either. Force would be like a prompt on every reboot or whenever you opened Firefox.
  - ht85 4y ago
    That's not true. Major patches all have some dialog full of dark pattern suggesting you browse with the most secure, bestest browser. Within the last year I've had multiple family / friends ask me how to get back to their normal browser, not knowing why Edge was now launching by default whenever they clicked a link. Edge even has special behavior to show you the same bullshit when you try to download another browser [1] [2]. But no worries, they might get a slap on the wrist for it. [1] https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-edge-chrome-2008/ https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-edge-chrome-2008/ [2] https://www.debugpoint.com/edge-messages-controversy/ https://www.debugpoint.com/edge-messages-controversy/

osel 4y ago

You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling. It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.

dmitriid 4y ago
Apple has become a parody of itself. A decade ago they were mocking Windows for the abundance of notifications. And now...
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Try the new Safari!
  - sbf501 4y ago
    "Try Apple Arcade for Three Months Free" Inside the *CONTROL PANEL* of the latest iOS.
tsimionescu 4y ago
Honestly that sounds more like a dark pattern (advertising "notifications" you can't dismiss) + what they would consider a bug (dismissing the adware on installation start instead of finish).
GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
It’s a straight up manipulation of people who don’t know the trick. They should be shamed for it

ouid 4y ago

Its not really a game of cat and mouse. Law enforcement can seek penalties sufficient to prevent the behavior from proliferating.

hutzlibu 4y ago
And lobbyist groups can prevent, that those fines are too heavy.

oreilles 4y ago

Keychain is opt-in. If you have it configured on your iPhone, it's because you accepted it when configuring your iPhone for the first time. You had to choice to refuse it - and you still have the possibility to disable it in your iPhone settings.

poglet 4y ago
It's unclear how it works, I received a prompt in Firefox to save my password, and I thought that it was the Firefox browser that would be saving my password however, it turned out to be keychain. Now the keychain message pops on all the time, I will have a look in the settings to see how to disable it.

footlose_3815 4y ago

[dead]

ht85 4y ago

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bullshit. Github new PR review UI is great on paper yet completely useless to review large PR because of performance issues. It took me one month to upgrade a zoom account to pro because the checkout would just show a blank page. Oh and I can't stay signed in on zoom.us because I disable "Functional Cookies", yet that's the only website that's ever had an issue, and I'm not using a hardened setup, just vanilla FF. So much for the modern, developer and open source-friendly narrative.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
> The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. Heh, try KDE's KRunner. I type 'kt' and it matches ktorrent. But if I type 'kto' it switches to matching "Desktop 8". 'ktor' once again matches ktorrent.
- thfuran 4y ago
  That sounds about like m experience trying to open intellij in windows.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Sounds like you want trabucco! https://github.com/ltworf/trabucco https://github.com/ltworf/trabucco
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  That's a common autocomplete behaviour. It's trying to be helpful. If you actually wanted ktorrent, you probably would have selected ktorrent on 'kt'. By typing another letter you're hinting you might want something other than ktorrent. Not sure if I agree with the behaviour, but I understand it.

rlpb 4y ago

It's also impossible to set up someone less technical with an alternative. The platform will keep prompting them incessantly and in various different ways, and sooner or later they'll switch or activate something by mistake. It really needs to be possible to say "no means no". But somehow, continuously nagging seems to have become acceptable.

encryptluks2 4y ago
Not entirely true, but they certainly don't make it simple and I don't think the government will care because they benefit from browsers trying to revert people out of privacy enhancements.

avereveard 4y ago

Also there was an uptake in integrations that open edge irregardless of what your default browser is, like start menu search results if you happen to have web search enabled in it.

causality0 4y ago

I wish I could just mail Microsoft a check and a note that says "I am not a tech ignoramus, stop treating me like your side bitch" and get the same Windows experience I was enjoying a decade ago.

speed_spread 4y ago
You can't do that because it's not about money. It's about power.
executesorder66 4y ago
So stop using windows then. The more you use their stuff the more you enable them to pull this kind of crap.

musicale 4y ago

> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field It is worth noting that KeyChain was introduced in Mac OS 8.6 in 1999, and has been part of every version of macOS since then, as well as every version of iOS ever. It's basically the user credential subsystem for Apple operating systems. As I understand it, 1Password came out in 2006. When I looked at it last, it seemed that 1Password didn't interoperate well with KeyChain and also required a subscription - decisions which I found unappealing.

judge2020 4y ago

> I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. It's a system app. You also didn't explicitly install the TV app yet here we are. Settings -> Passwords -> Password Options -> uncheck iCloud Passwords & Keychain

graftak 4y ago
When looking for it I went to Settings -> Safari -> Autofill which I’d expect to have it’s own setting for this.