9 ms·

Is it just me, or do major tech companies turn into advertising businesses even for paid products like Windows OS[1] or iPhone/iOS[2]? [1] https://www.makeuseo

Is it just me, or do major tech companies turn into advertising businesses even for paid products like Windows OS[1] or iPhone/iOS[2]? [1] https://www.makeuseof.com/windows-11-remove-ads/ https://www.makeuseof.com/windows-11-remove-ads/ [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-aapl-set-to-expand-advertising-bringing-ads-to-maps-tv-and-books-apps-l6tdqqmg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-...

ur-whale 4y ago
>Is it just me, or do major tech companies turn into advertising businesses The fact that matchmakers always make way more money than the makers is not a new phenomenon. As a matter of fact, I'd wager that it's been this way since the day man invented barter.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- londons_explore 4y ago
  All of retail is in a way a matchmaker. Cosco doesn't make the goods they sell - they are just being an intermediary between you and the the manufacturer. An intermediary that takes a 60+% fee for their work.
  - hsnewman 4y ago
    Costco has a variety of products the make, chicken, pizza etc.
  - hk__2 4y ago
    > Cosco doesn't make the goods they sell - they are just being an intermediary between you and the the manufacturer. An intermediary that takes a 60+% fee for their work. It can take such "fee" because it’s so enormous that it can negociate prices in a way you couldn’t, as well as handling the logistics and having lots of different products at the same place. It’s not "just an intermediary", it’s an intermediary that adds value. If you want to eat a yogurt, would you prefer paying $4 a pack of four at Costco or $1500 for 4000 yogurts you have to transport from the manufacturer to your home with your own truck?
    - otikik 4y ago
      Those are not the only two options available. A locally produced yogurt would cost more than in Costco, but not that much more. Maybe $20 a pack, with a deposit for the glass, and you would get it at your door with your milk.
      - hk__2 4y ago
        I don’t think this invalidates the point that Costco is not "just an intermediary".
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Would it? You are welcome to start the business and try to compete with Costco/Chobani/Dannon/etc
        otikik 4y ago
        Thanks for the kind offer, but when I move on from computer stuff I will start a woodworking business, as is tradition.
    - meowkit 4y ago
      > It can take such "fee" because it’s so enormous that it can negociate prices in a way you couldn’t So what's the solution to this problem? In one way I think this could be framed as rent seeking via economies of scale.
      - hk__2 4y ago
        > So what's the solution to this problem? There’s no problem; Costco is an intermediary that brings value and so it takes its cut. Why do people buy from Amazon, who is also "just" an intermediary? Because you can buy millions of different products from one single place instead of having to go see each manufacturer where you wouldn’t be able to buy individual items anyway. This situation is a lot more effective than forcing each manufacturer to develop its own customer-facing business with all the costs and logistics that go with it.
  - ur-whale 4y ago
    > All of retail is in a way a matchmaker. Disagree. A retailer does add tangible value beyond matchmaking. For example, to name a few: - transport - quality control - inventory management - fine-grained understanding of local demand and providing the corresponding supply. Advertising is pure matchmaking.
cowtools 4y ago
this really punches a hole in the idea that "if you're not the customer, you're the product"
- daptaq 4y ago
  To be fair, you can't deduce "A -> ~B" from "A -> B". You can be the customer and the product.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    But doesn't it imply that the only way to not be the product is to be the customer? In this case, we see that being the customer is insufficient to not be the product.
    - sneak 4y ago
      No, the only way to not be the product is to not provide PII to big tech, or their downstreams that immediately shuttle your PII to big tech.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        Advertising doesn't technically need PII, any kind of II is enough (PII typically refers to things like your name or face or address).
        sneak 4y ago
        Every app these days requires your unique and unchanging advertising identifier to log in. You can’t get an Apple ID or Google account, or order a pizza or make a dinner reservation without it. You might know it as your phone number.
    - daptaq 4y ago
      No, being a product or a customer stand in no relation to one another. You can be neither, either, or both. If you don't want to be a product, you have to work on that, not on being a better customer.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
It's not just you. The business model of many tech companies consists of creating digital fiefdoms to lock "their" users into and then selling access to "their" users. They sell access to "their" users to other software developers. They sell access to the attention of "their" users to advertisers. It's pretty disgusting and dehumanizing.
- sithlord 4y ago
  is that any different than going to Disney World and having coke products shoved in your face?
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Of course. When I go to places like that, it's because I want to consume. When I go to a store, when I open the store app, it's because I want to see products. That's the whole point. In those cases, it's not advertising, it's information. The problem with computers today is you get advertised to no matter what you do. Can't boot goddamn Windows without it finding an excuse to show you stupid Taboola ads. Can't open a simple website without being literally flooded with ads all around the "content". This "content" is just an incidental abstraction, an arbitrary square on the screen that ads mold themselves around like parasites. It doesn't matter what the "content" is, it could be anything that draws in users, the real product is their attention being captured by the ads.
    - grey_earthling 4y ago
      I describe this problem as misaligned purposes. You want to consume plastic stuff; Disney World wants to sell you plastic stuff; a magical time ensues. But you buy Windows because you want a useful OS; whereas Microsoft make Windows as a shop-front for their paid-for services; your purpose and the makers' purpose are misaligned, and you end up frustrated and annoyed that Windows isn't what you want it to be. Similarly, if a website's purpose is to make money (which is fair enough of course), but you're there because you want to read interesting stuff, that's a misaligned purpose and a frustrating time for you. Websites that exist primarily to show off interesting stuff tend not to tax the content-blocker so hard, because the author and audience's purposes are well-aligned. And community-governed OSes/distros tend not to push other services, because the purpose for making them genuinely is to be a useful OS (for their intended niche). My suggestion for what it's worth: choose tools and services where the maker's purpose for making it aligns with your purpose for using it.
summerlight 4y ago
Technically, advertising business basically solves a market optimization problem, which means you can keep improving revenue/profit while your business structure remaining transparent to customers. This gives you a definite control on your business as well as removing lots of uncertainties. I have no doubt Apple or MS want to get their hands into the advertising business; how to do that is a different question though.
- simfree 4y ago
  Apple already sells ads, and has been expanding where they show ads over time.
jeffbee 4y ago
Apple advertises their cloud services in macosx constantly and there's no way to permanently dismiss these advertisements, other than buying said services.
- rchaud 4y ago
  I am still running Catalina 10.15, and haven't seen any ads for Apple services. There is stuff like Apple TV and Apple News pre-installed, but I never open them, and they never send notifications.
- berkut 4y ago
  Turning off the Apple Music / iCloud / Apple Arcade notification badge "adverts" in iOS (just got a new iPhone) is also - while not that difficult technically - mildly annoying...
amelius 4y ago
This is at least as old as Smart TVs.
BbzzbB 4y ago
>On a long enough timeframe, everyone sells ads. https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/1002649360042283014 https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/10026493600422830...
bee_rider 4y ago
Huh, for some reason I'd gotten it into my head that Windows was free to OEMs. But it turns out that that was just a particular version of 8, "with Bing," a while ago. Wild that Windows is a paid product.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ur-whale 4y ago

>Is it just me, or do major tech companies turn into advertising businesses The fact that matchmakers always make way more money than the makers is not a new phenomenon. As a matter of fact, I'd wager that it's been this way since the day man invented barter.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
londons_explore 4y ago
All of retail is in a way a matchmaker. Cosco doesn't make the goods they sell - they are just being an intermediary between you and the the manufacturer. An intermediary that takes a 60+% fee for their work.
- hsnewman 4y ago
  Costco has a variety of products the make, chicken, pizza etc.
- hk__2 4y ago
  > Cosco doesn't make the goods they sell - they are just being an intermediary between you and the the manufacturer. An intermediary that takes a 60+% fee for their work. It can take such "fee" because it’s so enormous that it can negociate prices in a way you couldn’t, as well as handling the logistics and having lots of different products at the same place. It’s not "just an intermediary", it’s an intermediary that adds value. If you want to eat a yogurt, would you prefer paying $4 a pack of four at Costco or $1500 for 4000 yogurts you have to transport from the manufacturer to your home with your own truck?
  - otikik 4y ago
    Those are not the only two options available. A locally produced yogurt would cost more than in Costco, but not that much more. Maybe $20 a pack, with a deposit for the glass, and you would get it at your door with your milk.
    - hk__2 4y ago
      I don’t think this invalidates the point that Costco is not "just an intermediary".
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Would it? You are welcome to start the business and try to compete with Costco/Chobani/Dannon/etc
      - otikik 4y ago
        Thanks for the kind offer, but when I move on from computer stuff I will start a woodworking business, as is tradition.
  - meowkit 4y ago
    > It can take such "fee" because it’s so enormous that it can negociate prices in a way you couldn’t So what's the solution to this problem? In one way I think this could be framed as rent seeking via economies of scale.
    - hk__2 4y ago
      > So what's the solution to this problem? There’s no problem; Costco is an intermediary that brings value and so it takes its cut. Why do people buy from Amazon, who is also "just" an intermediary? Because you can buy millions of different products from one single place instead of having to go see each manufacturer where you wouldn’t be able to buy individual items anyway. This situation is a lot more effective than forcing each manufacturer to develop its own customer-facing business with all the costs and logistics that go with it.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > All of retail is in a way a matchmaker. Disagree. A retailer does add tangible value beyond matchmaking. For example, to name a few: - transport - quality control - inventory management - fine-grained understanding of local demand and providing the corresponding supply. Advertising is pure matchmaking.

cowtools 4y ago

this really punches a hole in the idea that "if you're not the customer, you're the product"

daptaq 4y ago
To be fair, you can't deduce "A -> ~B" from "A -> B". You can be the customer and the product.
- cowtools 4y ago
  But doesn't it imply that the only way to not be the product is to be the customer? In this case, we see that being the customer is insufficient to not be the product.
  - sneak 4y ago
    No, the only way to not be the product is to not provide PII to big tech, or their downstreams that immediately shuttle your PII to big tech.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Advertising doesn't technically need PII, any kind of II is enough (PII typically refers to things like your name or face or address).
      - sneak 4y ago
        Every app these days requires your unique and unchanging advertising identifier to log in. You can’t get an Apple ID or Google account, or order a pizza or make a dinner reservation without it. You might know it as your phone number.
  - daptaq 4y ago
    No, being a product or a customer stand in no relation to one another. You can be neither, either, or both. If you don't want to be a product, you have to work on that, not on being a better customer.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

It's not just you. The business model of many tech companies consists of creating digital fiefdoms to lock "their" users into and then selling access to "their" users. They sell access to "their" users to other software developers. They sell access to the attention of "their" users to advertisers. It's pretty disgusting and dehumanizing.

sithlord 4y ago
is that any different than going to Disney World and having coke products shoved in your face?
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Of course. When I go to places like that, it's because I want to consume. When I go to a store, when I open the store app, it's because I want to see products. That's the whole point. In those cases, it's not advertising, it's information. The problem with computers today is you get advertised to no matter what you do. Can't boot goddamn Windows without it finding an excuse to show you stupid Taboola ads. Can't open a simple website without being literally flooded with ads all around the "content". This "content" is just an incidental abstraction, an arbitrary square on the screen that ads mold themselves around like parasites. It doesn't matter what the "content" is, it could be anything that draws in users, the real product is their attention being captured by the ads.
  - grey_earthling 4y ago
    I describe this problem as misaligned purposes. You want to consume plastic stuff; Disney World wants to sell you plastic stuff; a magical time ensues. But you buy Windows because you want a useful OS; whereas Microsoft make Windows as a shop-front for their paid-for services; your purpose and the makers' purpose are misaligned, and you end up frustrated and annoyed that Windows isn't what you want it to be. Similarly, if a website's purpose is to make money (which is fair enough of course), but you're there because you want to read interesting stuff, that's a misaligned purpose and a frustrating time for you. Websites that exist primarily to show off interesting stuff tend not to tax the content-blocker so hard, because the author and audience's purposes are well-aligned. And community-governed OSes/distros tend not to push other services, because the purpose for making them genuinely is to be a useful OS (for their intended niche). My suggestion for what it's worth: choose tools and services where the maker's purpose for making it aligns with your purpose for using it.

summerlight 4y ago

Technically, advertising business basically solves a market optimization problem, which means you can keep improving revenue/profit while your business structure remaining transparent to customers. This gives you a definite control on your business as well as removing lots of uncertainties. I have no doubt Apple or MS want to get their hands into the advertising business; how to do that is a different question though.

simfree 4y ago
Apple already sells ads, and has been expanding where they show ads over time.

jeffbee 4y ago

Apple advertises their cloud services in macosx constantly and there's no way to permanently dismiss these advertisements, other than buying said services.

rchaud 4y ago
I am still running Catalina 10.15, and haven't seen any ads for Apple services. There is stuff like Apple TV and Apple News pre-installed, but I never open them, and they never send notifications.
berkut 4y ago
Turning off the Apple Music / iCloud / Apple Arcade notification badge "adverts" in iOS (just got a new iPhone) is also - while not that difficult technically - mildly annoying...

amelius 4y ago

This is at least as old as Smart TVs.

BbzzbB 4y ago

>On a long enough timeframe, everyone sells ads. https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/1002649360042283014 https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/10026493600422830...

bee_rider 4y ago

Huh, for some reason I'd gotten it into my head that Windows was free to OEMs. But it turns out that that was just a particular version of 8, "with Bing," a while ago. Wild that Windows is a paid product.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]