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Ask HN: Easing wife onto Linux laptop How to?

31 points by A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

Hey everyone, It is going to sound a little weird and if it does not belong here, let me know and I will remove the post, but I am looking for some advice. Long story short, wife requested a new laptop for upcoming event and her laptop is old and slowish by today's standards ( nothing really wrong with it and she is not really using it for anything other than Word, Excel -- to keep tabs on some bills and a browser ). I suggested SSD since that would immediately make all the perceived slowness mostly go away, but I guess it is more about having something new ( and I will inherit old lappy so no waste here ). Anyway.. the question is not about hardware, but about OS. I am trying to move her away from Windows, but she resists, because that is the only OS she knows and does not want to 're-learn how to do everything'. It is not completely wrong, but wasn't there a KDE profile that basically made it look like Windows or something? I can't seem to find it, but I could have sworn I saw discussions of Linux that looked like Windows somewhere.

spdustin 4y ago
This seems like it would make her dependent on you, and takes away her agency. Please don't do it. She's made her needs clear, and supporting those needs means a Windows laptop.
_eht 4y ago
Have you tried just the tip?
egypturnash 4y ago
Dude just don't. Talk with her and figure out what kind of specs she needs and help her shop for one she likes. She knows what kind of tool she needs and how to use it. This is an Am I The Asshole post in the making otherwise.
Nextgrid 4y ago
The UI itself is not going to be your problem. Compatibility is - if she uses Word or Excel, presumably to collaborate with other people, she will have a problem regardless of whether the Linux OS looks like Windows. A Mac could be a decent middle-ground, especially the recent M1-based ones. It's still a Unix system underneath should she need to use more "Linuxy" things.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  I did ask about Macs, but she is consistent in not wanting to learn new UI. That said, word and excel are used to keep track of various tasks; nothing fancy; no collaboration whatsoever.
blendergeek 4y ago
Don't worry about making it "look like windows". Just use the default KDE Plasma desktop. Will LibreOffice suffice as a stand in for MS Office for her? (It should if her spreadsheets aren't full of macros). LibreOffice has a ribbon; learn how to enable it. Does she currently use OneDrive? Obviously web browsing won't be an issue (just use Firefox+uBlock Origin). Does she watch Peacock streaming on the laptop? It blocks Linux for no good reason (DRM shills please stay quiet). She can get used to the new interface just like when would have to if she got a new version of Windows -- if she feels like it.
- jlund-molfese 4y ago
  I really wouldn't recommend LibreOffice Writer for collaboration with other people. You never know how your documents are going to look when they're opened up in Word, and vice versa. Photoshop is at least a decade ahead of GIMP, and has a less embarrassing name. As someone who's used desktop Linux for the last 10 years, it's come a long way, but is still a personal choice that works well for some workflows and not others. Also, common sites like OpenTable block access to anyone with a Linux user agent for no reason. Imagine hearing "sorry honey I couldn't get dinner reservations for our anniversary because you forced me to use that weird new desktop environment"!
  - blendergeek 4y ago
    > I really wouldn't recommend LibreOffice Writer for collaboration with other people. You never know how your documents are going to look when they're opened up in Word, and vice versa. Remember to set up fonts correctly. Install all the microsoft fonts that you can on Linux and then use Carlito/Caldea as replacements for Calibri/Cambria. Most of the weird layout issues going back and forth between MS Word and LibreOffice are about fonts. > Photoshop is at least a decade ahead of GIMP, and has a less embarrassing name. The average user can get by with photopea which works in the browser (or so I hear from HN). For me, The GIMP works just fine. > Also, common sites like OpenTable block access to anyone with a Linux user agent for no reason. I just used OpenTable on Linux five seconds ago. I know that some sites (very few actually, I mentioned Peacock as one) block Linux users; luckily OpenTable isn't one of these (anymore?).
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jjgreen 4y ago
Ask HN: Easing husband onto proper computer, How To? My husband uses some weird sort of computer which doesn't run any proper software and he keeps trying to persuade me to do the same, even though he knows I have work to do ... How would you like it? Leave the poor woman alone!
- hk1337 4y ago
  Along the same vein, I've thought about setting up PiHole on my parents internet connection but relent because if/when the internet quits working then I am the one that has to deal with it because it was working before I did what I did.
  - darrylb42 4y ago
    PiHole is interesting in the amount of ads it blocks, but also the ads it doesn't. Made most of the banners go away for the silly coloring applications my kids use, but the full screen video ads don't go away. The video ads really need to be blocked as there are a lot that are not appropriate for the age of my kids. Some applications also refuse to start without tracking active. Took a while to figure out that "Envoy" the desk booking system wouldn't start while getting DNS from pihole.
    - hk1337 4y ago
      Yeah, the biggest thing I noticed that showed me how well it works is viewing news article posts where everyone in the comments complains about how unreadable it is and the page loads fine for me with tons of whitespace. The video ads on YouTube infuriate me though because a lot of times the first one isn't skippable anymore and you have to wade through 2-3 to get to the video. EDIT: Also, I have a Sudoku game that's just about unplayable away from PiHole because it has an ad at the bottom and interrupts gameplay periodically with video ads.
      - androidu 4y ago
        why don’t you just watch youtube through Invidious ( https://invidious.io/ https://invidious.io/ ) there are so many instances available, and you can even watch them in HD by appending ‘ &quality=dash’ to the url. For Twitter you can use Nitter etc… there are alternatives, wrote a nice blog post about what I was able to collect https://dminca.codeberg.page/posts/improving-your-web-experience/ https://dminca.codeberg.page/posts/improving-your-web-experi...
browningstreet 4y ago
Why not a Chromebook?
mysore 4y ago
dual boot. give her a choice. don't force things onto her, even if you think its better. if windows gets slow, she can try linux and see how its faster. i tried giving my sister linux and she's a technically savvy product manager but she still ended up not liking it. you're wife might be really smart, but if the computer doesn't work correctly she will resent you lol. and by "correctly" i mean in any way that she doesn't expect or that is contrary to her intuition, which may have been built using windows. most people generally don't like using computers that much. even i don't as a software engineer. generally most people use computers as an interface to the web, so the OS is mostly irrelevant. But if the OS gets in her way like once or twice and forces her to install some package or whatever, that's just a little unnecessary friction that makes an already unpleasant experience worse. can't go wrong with dual booting anyway. if there's any wifi/hardware issues it might be due to linux or she might just blame linux and think its worse even if its better in your eyes and mine. i mean unless you want to spend extra time doing tech support, which isn't really productive for you, or for her to wait on you when she needs something done.
dxf 4y ago
Honest question -- why are you trying to get her to move away from Windows? What benefits for her do you see in doing that? Perhaps she would be more amenable to a Chromebook? (Depending on what apps she actually needs to run.)
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Hmm. That is a good question. Upon reflection it is more about me than her. I went out of my way to not let her laptop or my PC back then upgrade to Win10. I do have strong views on telemetry and any new Windows laptop will likely not listen to me when I ask it not to do things I don't want done ( which seems to be a common issue with software these days ). The benefit for her is the same as the benefit for me. I would like to keep as much of my life as private as possible. I am not sure bare Windows is the best way to achieve that goal ( even if she does not think it is relevant, her disregard for privacy considerations kinda forces me to put some blocks in place ). In case you are wondering, we have discussed privacy implications, but I am learning to pick my hills carefully. Out of the two evils, I would sooner do Windows ( because then at least I can gut it ). I wouldn't be able to do it Chromebook. Separately, she already said no to Macbook ( so at least she is consistent - no OS change ).
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    So you're basically forcing your decisions on to her? You've forced your decision of not upgrading to the latest windows version. And now you want to go out of your way to not get her a laptop she would be happy with. All because you're not happy with what many would consider be a minor issue. Since you're saying you've already talked about the privacy implications I'm going to assume your wife has made her opinion clear. Yet here you are trying to figure out how to get her to do what you want. Seems very controlling and generally controlling partners aren't healthy ones. Maybe you should seek some therapy (not couples therapy, just therapy for you) to help you get over this controlling urge you have.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      That seems.. unnecessarily harsh? I am not going to play armchair psychiatrist though. With that in mind allow me to focus on a technical piece: <<You've forced your decision of not upgrading to the latest windows version. Hmm. Why would you assume it was forced? At the time, my wife could barely mount an objection in that area. From her perspective, if status quo is maintained, it is good. Beyond that though, Windows 7 upgrade was an effective downgrade ( addition of telemetry being one sticking point, but there were others ). Edit: I am not going to respond to this portion of the post anymore. I dislike playing a game of gotcha especially if I do not see a good faith effort to respond to me. Apart from everything else, I do not think it is in the spirit of HN.
chomp 4y ago
As someone who's tried to convince their spouse to move from Windows to Mac or Linux, I'd personally not fight this battle unless they express interest. There will be friction regardless of how perfect you set up their DE, and unless they are actively interested in navigating the road blocks, they're going to get frustrated at you, and the computer. Look at it the reverse, how would you feel if she pressed for you to get off your freebie OS and use a "real operating system." (disclaimer, I use Fedora as my daily driver.) You'd probably feel frustrated and defensive that Linux checks your checkmarks and Windows does not. That is probably true of her position. Just show her a Chromebook if you want her to try Linux. You'll probably regret pressing for her to jump on anything anything more complex than that.
dashwehacct 4y ago
You’re in for an uphill battle my friend. The biggest obstacle will be converting her word/excel workflows to a OpenOffice write/calc (or other open source alternative). Unless of course she is using the web version of M$ Office. I have a work laptop, a personal project laptop (more work), and a gaming pc. I’ve intentionally resisted from installing any work/productivity/etc software on my gaming pc and found myself spending a couple hours navigating through OpenOffice Calc to perform a task that would have taken me 20 minutes in excel. It was possible, but without the familiar UI I was completely lost. But.. If you can convert her to using web version of these tools, and find an intuitive enough desktop environment, you/she may have a better time with this transition. Edit: On second thought, I would take a moment to consider what is causing you push her towards this transition. If learning how to operate in a completely different environment than what she is used to is not her fancy, neither of you are going to have a good time. Either way, good luck.
type0 4y ago
I wouldn't bother to style it like Windows, would do more harm than good Microsoft Surface with Fedora GNOME is a good easy gateway to Linux, mainly because of the touchscreen https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supported-Devices-and-Features#feature-matrix https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte... https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface
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qsort 4y ago
> I am trying to move her away from Windows Honestly, I think the "why" is missing here. Does she have a problem she'll be able to solve by switching to Linux? Why isn't installing a fresh copy of Windows without the OEM crap sufficient?
hengheng 4y ago
bitlax 4y ago
Linux Mint
winrid 4y ago
Give her a Windows laptop.
srk_hn 4y ago
Linux has been around for 30 years and still has not acquired any significant consumer share. Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language. As opposed to MacOS and Windows which just work, used throughout the world on a daily basis by the majority of the world, and have tangible results in terms of productivity benefit. Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  I am using PopOS as my daily driver. I have yet to see some of the problems with hardware or drivers ( so kudos to PopOS people ). Admittedly, it is not without flaws, but.. I don't turn on Windows VM that much anymore. <<Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it. You have a point although obviously I am not willing to discuss those on open forum more than that. Hmm, lets reverse roles a little and see where it takes us in a hypothetical. If I wanted to get a Acura, but wife was pushing for a Honda, is it forcing an opinion or discussing options with a partner?
  - srk_hn 4y ago
    That's a discussion because by and large those two choices are equal with minute differences in perceived social status and comfort, but the fundamental function is the same. On the other hand if I'm spending 2 minutes debugging why my microphone isn't working or why my 2nd monitor blinks out when my computer goes to sleep, that is a waste of my time. If I can figure out any general Windows or MacOS software in 5 minutes but need to read a manpage or ask my partner how to do some trivial piece of work or why I can't edit a document my coworker sent but everyone else can, you are intentionally sabotaging my life with your decisions. There's many things that are up for negotiation and consideration in a relationship, but wasting someone's time for the sake of some self righteous quest for privacy (that argument is moot btw, considering that you have now encouraged your partner to take risky actions such as finding new software and finding new ways of doing things without a "it just works" approach) crosses a line. If you use a cellphone, have a WiFi router, don't use a VPN with no records at the router level, or are located within a city, you already don't have privacy no matter how much you personally believe you do. Source: I work a lot with adtech and my partner works in a personal identification business
foogazi 4y ago
> I am trying to move her away from Windows Maybe you need relationship advice instead of tech advice get her the best windows laptop you can afford, make sure it's secured properly with updates and such and that it "just works" you get inherit the old laptop, put an ssd on it and install whatever linux flavor you want everyone is happy
- lcall 4y ago
  And then after some forced upgrades to versions she doesn't want and said "no" to, but Microsoft knew better and did it anyway (what happened to us), you can explain the alternatives and your experiences (stability, works well on old hardware, fewer viruses, free upgrades for life, local trust and control if/as desired, never a forced upgrade, easy and essentially no re-learning required [see my other comment in this discussion, with XFCE and some desktop icons and CUPS there was practically no re-learning as a user, but I was available to provide support as a long-time user], and let her decide differently if she wants. That's my general experience anyway. Though I admit, there have been some minor adventures with printing.
  - lcall 4y ago
    Maybe I should add: paid support is available, per the OS web sites where they list consultants. I mean, one is not only limited to searching/asking online. I have never used it but am glad to know it is there. And now you have decision-making control, yourself, over the system.
flint 4y ago
Hire some else to do it. Never explain technology to your wife.
- coherentpony 4y ago
  I don't agree with "don't educate someone" being a defensible position. I teach my wife things all the time, including technology. She teaches me things all the time, including technology.
vehemenz 4y ago
Why are you trying to move her away from Windows, when that's what she is familiar with?
sys_64738 4y ago
If you must, then Linux Mint would be my recommendation. She can keep using Office apps via Office 365 in Microsoft Edge.
andrewmutz 4y ago
I recently switched to Pop OS from the mac and I love it. Another solid option is a chromebook.
luc_ 4y ago
>It is going to sound a little weird and if it does not belong here, let me know and I will remove the post, but I am looking for some advice. Seems pretty weird, maybe you should remove the post and let your wife choose her own OS that suits her needs.
smallerfish 4y ago
I get this from the perspective of not wanting to be IT support for windows issues (I've only used linux for the past 22 years, with a brief period of OSX at work, and find windows generally really annoying, aside from having a philosophical hangover from 1990s MS). I put my computer phobic father on Linux 15 years ago, and he's been fine with it. Your issue is software. LibreOffice frankly looks bad compared to MS Office, and it will be a poor experience for her. If she's OK with google docs, then that friction at least is removed. What else does she use? Krita's good if she's a very light Photoshop user. You'll also want to make 100% sure that the hardware you get is well supported by Linux - you can't afford any wake from suspend, external monitor, or audio issues, or your credibility is shot (maybe get a Dell XPS developer edition with Ubuntu preinstalled). And be prepared to install Windows (promptly) if she encounters any issues or frustration other than a mild learning curve. You could also consider a powerful enough Chromebook.
implements 4y ago
There's a ubuntu Linux that attempts to be visually and software compatible: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/07/10/ubuntu-based-linux-os-similar-to-windows-10/?sh=6f601d7821b9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2020/07/10/ubunt... https://linuxfx.org/index.php https://linuxfx.org/index.php https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linuxfx https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=linuxfx - no personal knowledge of it, though.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Thank you. While I think I am inching towards Windows (gutted) default, I will check it out.
rngname22 4y ago
First step: ask yourself if this is really a worthwhile pursuit. Then ask yourself again. Then ask yourself, of all possible changes I could ask my wife to make for me and my happiness (spending more time together at social events or at home, getting more dressed up for fancy occasions, changing some frustrating personal habit in the household, communicating differently, etc) is this the one I want to cash in my chips for or should I hold out and use them for something more important.
NoGravitas 4y ago
If she doesn't want to use Linux, forcing it on her is not going to have an outcome you will be happy with.
mikedelago 4y ago
She's not going to be happy using Linux unless she doesn't want to use Windows. It's probably not worth trying to introduce her to Linux if she isn't interested in it.
bombcar 4y ago
If you really want to do this (trust me, you don't) then just get her laptop setup with Linux and run Windows in a virtual machine. The only way you might win this is showing her how different windows 11 is from 10 and say "you might as well try something new" and go Mac. You're going to lose this battle.
fezfight 4y ago
I made our TV an Ubuntu box. Now she knows how to use Ubuntu as well as she does Windows and iOS. Which is to say not at all, really. Click browser, browse.
filmgirlcw 4y ago
This is so unbelievably condescending and frankly, gross. Why do you get to choose what OS your wife uses? She likes Windows, for whatever reason. Why do you feel entitled to change what she’s using? How would you feel if someone tried to replace your Linux distro of choice with MacOS or a well-configured WSL2 setup? You’d probably be annoyed, even if you could do everything you did before, albeit in a different way. Look, I understand the support concerns with a family member using an OS you don’t like. But the move isn’t to force them or trick them into something else. I was able to get my mom to switch to macOS, which is my preference, 13 years ago. She was already used to iOS and Macs made more sense to her. My father, on the other hand, does not like Macs. I was able to get him to use a Chromebook for a time, but it broke and he went back to Windows. A few weeks ago, I bought him a new laptop that I got a great deal on (that was the price of a mid-tier Chromebook but significantly better specs and a much larger SSD), installed some extra RAM (that he probably didn’t need but he’s my dad and I love him and it was only $50) and I did a clean install of Windows 11 before I ever even logged into the machine. He’s exceedingly happy. And without the pre installed malware, I’m very happy to act as remote tech support if I need to. When I shared this with people, the overwhelming response from fellow nerds was that I should have bought him a computer he did not want (a MacBook), a lesser-computer that he’d already had a bad experience with (a Chromebook), or forced him to use Linux. You know what my dad would do if I tried to force him into Linux? He’d go to the store and buy himself a more expensive and shittier Windows laptop than the one I got him and then get suckered into Best Buy Geek Squad bullshit. And I’d still be stuck supporting him on Windows. But now it would be even worse. I say all this because your wife, like my father, is an adult. And she gets to choose what computer she uses. She’s not a child and she’s not your property. Let her like what she likes! And trying to convince someone that Libre Office is the same as Office 365 is a really, really mean thing to do for anyone that shares documents with others.
rejectfinite 4y ago
Windows 10 or 11, turn off the ads/suggestions in Settings and install ublock origin on Edge/Firefox/Chrome or whatever and it should be fine.
hrgiger 4y ago
My gf not good with computers yet still she is on fedora since about 4 year but she is only using for browsing, she doesnt mind to use work computer (windows) when needed for excel etc... But if she needs one particular win app I would install back without question.
erddfre3423 4y ago
Linux Mint with Cinnamon really reminds me of Windows 7 in terms of UX, and runs well on old machines, usually without any extra configuration required. I would recommend that.
mxuribe 4y ago
@A4ET8a8uTh0 I was about to suggest having your wife try Ubuntu Mate (via liveUSB/CD so its not a commitment just a test drive for her), since Mate allows for changing the panel to display like Windows (or MacOS, etc.): https://ubuntu-mate.org/features/panel/ https://ubuntu-mate.org/features/panel/ But, then, I re-read your initial question...and you stated that she "resists" this (sounds like its because of her work flow comfort level). If that's the case, changing to linux will not help her. If she has to "fight" the UI/UX then this will not make her happy (nor you)....Of course, she can test drive Ubuntu Mate and maybe it might come close...but ultimately this is an exercise that you and your wife can take together to see what about her workflow she likes with windows and see if something on linux makes sense. Basically, learn about her workflow and then you and her can work out what makes sense for her. Who knows, maybe going through that you both will learn something. ...or if Windows is too perfect of a fit for her, then i suggest do as others advised and simply get a Windows machine and keep up with maintenance, backups, etc. I say this as both a husband as well as a super fan of linux!
jefurii 4y ago
My wife is an attorney and has been happily using Ubuntu for her law practice for something like 10 years now. When it was time to replace her aging 12in TiBook (OSX) I suggested she consider a Linux laptop. I myself had switched to a Thinkpad with Linux several years before that and she heard me rave about it and looked over my shoulder and thought it looked interesting. She was already interested in the privacy and freedom aspects of free/open-source. I started by creating a user account on my laptop, setting it up with her most-used applications in the sidebar and a background and color scheme I knew she'd like, and copied a bunch of her documents to it. We went to a coffeehouse where I bought her whatever she wanted and answered her questions as she tried it out. There was absolutely no such thing as a dumb question. I thought Gnome Shell might seem weird to her but she did fine with it. We spent most of our time with LibreOffice. She's not an Office power-user which probably made things easier. Things were in different places but the apps are similar enough she was able to make the transition. The only real sticking point was that LibreOffice had no split-screen view, but we found a workaround. She agreed to try a Linux laptop on the condition that we would order a new Macintosh if it didn't work for her, but it worked for her. Factors that helped: - She was already interested in the social-justice aspects of free/open-source software. - She was already used to switching from Windows at her old job to OSX at home. - We agreed that she could switch back to Windows or Mac, or at least run Office using CrossOver/WINE if there was ever a problem. - She had her own law practice and didn't need to collaborate with other attorneys. Lawyers make heavy use of MS Word change tracking, and that would have sunk the whole thing. - We both worked from home and I had a job that let me offer tech support for her basically whenever she needed it. - She spends almost all her time in LibreOffice, Firefox, and Chrome. She basically doesn't interact with the OS that much. - I treated her every question as a professional support request. That's just baseline adulting. She used Ubuntu and LibreOffice for her practice until she took a new job this year. They gave her a Surface laptop with Windows for work but she continues to run Linux on her personal machine.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Thank you. That was useful information to me. It seems likely that Windows will be a better choice at this time.
gregjor 4y ago
After years of dealing with Windows bugs, updates, and malware for my parents I got them to switch to iPads. They use the web browser, email, light word processing, spreadsheet, and apps for banking and travel. They adapted reasonably fast and now love their iPads. They can’t touch-type anyway so the Apple keyboard cover works fine for them. They already used iPhones so the iPad was familiar enough. iOS/iPadOS have built-in secure password generation and management/autofill they can actually use so they aren’t using their dog’s name for every account like they did on Windows. They even figured out how to cast video to their smart tv on their own. The best part is I never get called to deal with their computer problems.
kornhole 4y ago
What worked for us was me first showing her the beautiful setup and things I could do in my KDE environment. I also explained additional benefits such as how private the setup is which she has come to value. If she shows interest, be very upfront that it will be different and she must want to learn how to do some things differently. Without that desire, you are on a path of frustration and conflict. Be prepared to do a lot of tech support to help her with things. Only Office might be a better UX for her than Libre Office.
kerri9494 4y ago
Husband requested that I pick up a six pack for an upcoming event, and his current choice of beer is kind of crappy by today's standards. I am trying to move him away from American lager beer, but he resists, because that is the only beer he knows and does not want to 're-learn how to like beer'. It is not completely wrong, but maybe Heineken would be a good compromise?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Interesting. Like the Honda/Acura analogy, is it really an apt analogy though?
Pr0ject217 4y ago
I set my wife up with vanilla Ubuntu and paired it with Microsoft Office 365 which she accesses from the browser. She's been using it for over a year with no complaints. I've had to intervene once when the wifi driver updated and broke her wifi, but other than that, she's had no issues.
rjmill 4y ago
I've been down that road before. Don't force it. Right now, all her computer problems are Microsoft's fault. If you force it, it'll be your fault whenever things go wrong.
narag 4y ago
So many people are advising to leave her choose her OS. I'm tempted to join them, even if I'm considering to ditch Windows at home myself. But there are a couple of thoughts I'd like to share. Does she maintain her current laptop? One of my current complaints with Windows is how intrusive the AV, indexing or other background tasks are. If you are shielding her from the real Windows experience and telling her that slowness is because the laptop is old, she has a biased outlook. At the end of the day, the question is if she can do the same things that she does now. Can't you set up a Linux VM in another beefier computer and let her check for herself? If you can't build an environment where she feels comfortable, just buy what she says.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Here the answer is no. I am the expected person to maintain anything approaching tech in our household. In a sense, she is already using media PC, but she either didn't notice different OS or it didn't matter, because it was not part of her normal routine.
  - narag 4y ago
    Then I would use that as a convincing point ;) Either way, good luck!
Bakary 4y ago
She probably is used to applications like the Office suite that are going to be a pain and a half to use on Linux and no don't tell me about Libreoffice we all know it's much worse except if you just want to type a bakesale advert Don't be that guy, OP.
ananiochita 4y ago
To answer the question and not discuss your private life or your relationship as most seem to want to do for some reason, the consensus these days when it comes to the most Windows-like experience seems to be Linux Mint with Cinnamon. ( Others have said the same already from what I've seen. ) If you want options and customization and are willing to spend serious time to set it up, then yes, KDE beats everything else and you can probably have it set up to her liking if she wanted to try it. I'd download a couple of live usbs, talk with her and see if she absolutely hates the idea of playing with them or not. ( Personally I'm not a fan of derivatives though, and would stick to an original distro; Debian, Fedora, Arch, SUSE ... Edit : Fedora has an official Cinnamon spin and people talk well of openSUSE's KDE. )
pengo 4y ago
I've migrated family, friends and neighbours to Linux Mint and had nothing but positive responses. In most cases they had a middle-aged computer that was not eligible for a newer Windows version; in others their existing computer died. Most mainstream Linux distros are not significantly different from Windows for your average user once they know which software is equivalent to what they used to use.
BlackLotus89 4y ago
What the hell is wrong with the hn crowd here? Why is everybody picking on that poor guy? Why are all the comments trying to paint the bleakest picture of him without knowing him or his wife? He wants to introduce linux to his wife and she fears that relearning everything will be hard. I'm sure he wont force linux down her throat if she says she can't use it and will gladly install her the OS she wants. I installed my family linux on their PC as well so that I could better support them. Most of them still use it happily and one used linux for a few tasks and windows for others. I couldn't imagine giving my wife windows support, but she still got a windows partition for a few games. Anyway.... Back to the topic If she does as little with windows as it sounds don't do anything fancy. Give her shortcuts on the desktop or in the favs and enable her to use her PC for what she does without distraction. Introduce the laptop parallel to her old laptop and let her try it first. If she doesn't like it you can dual boot windows or just install her windows. Don't try to hard making it like windows try making it easy to use. If you go the windows route don't forget "open shell" and "o&o shutup" are essentials for a minimal migration from win7 to win10. Powertoys are nice as well.
- jhanschoo 4y ago
  > I'm sure he wont force linux down her throat if she says she can't use it and will gladly install her the OS she wants. > I am trying to move her away from Windows, but she resists, because that is the only OS she knows and does not want to 're-learn how to do everything'. This does not seem like a case of a husband trying to help a wife keen on giving it a shot make it easy for her.
  - BlackLotus89 4y ago
    Sounds to me more like it was badly worded (could be wrong, but to me he doesn't sound like a native speaker) Resisting can take many forms like for instance the resistance of my wife to try mushrooms. I pressed her to try some that I liked and she "gave in". Hey she was right she didn't like the texture of any of them, but she was glad she tried it. In my opinion it's normal in a healthy relationship to persuade the partner to try new things. Without the insistence of my wife I wouldn't have tried a few series, didn't went to the doctor when it was necessary and would life a bit too unhealthy. My point is that she asked him to get her a laptop and she sounds unwilling to try it because she doesn't "know linux". Bringing the better half to try new things isn't a bad thing, that's at least my opinion.
lcall 4y ago
In my experience, it can work well. For several people, I put Debian (or OpenBSD) on their machine, with XFCE as the desktop environment, and some icons on the desktop for their most frequently-used apps (or direct browser URLs to go where they usually like to go), give them a few tips for finding things in the menu, set up and test CUPS printing, and be available to troubleshoot anything or answer questions, and they didn't have to "learn linux" at all. It's enough like Windows XP that they have been able to use it generally without problems other than the occasional question about how to manage a 2nd monitor (so I showed them how to click to xrandr or arandr or something). I also make/made sure to do upgrades for them. For debian, that includes but is not limited to installing the "unattended-upgrades" package, so many updates they get without my involvement. (Some users don't use these computers any more because it was for a class that was discontinued after a few years, another family member continues, happily.) edit:I admit, there have been some adventures with printing.
- lcall 4y ago
  Maybe I should add: paid support is available, per the OS web sites where they list consultants. I mean, one is not only limited to searching/asking online. I have never used it but am glad to know it is there. And now you have decision-making control, yourself, over the system. Some added thoughts are in my other comment on this page (Ctrl+F for lcall).
ha1zum 4y ago
I would recommend to first introduce her to softwares that available both on Windows and Linux, such as Only Office, GIMP, Chromium, VLC, and let her use it on Windows for awhile. After that, give her Linux Mint or Zorin OS and install the same softwares there, those 2 OSes have a very similar layout with Windows and very popular.
oliwarner 4y ago
I've transitioned large numbers of people onto new systems (operating and other) and I've hit just about every problem along the way. When you're introducing somebody to a new system, it's not enough to say "ah it looks they same, so they'll be okay". Visual parity helps but people very quickly get hesitant if things have different names, and it gets worse if they have muscle memory for certain operations that now don't work. Sometimes it's better that things don't look the same: Uncanny Valley is a real thing that upsets people. If it looks the same but works differently, it may as well look different. On your description I would suggest that document management is probably going to be your biggest focus. You need to familiarise yourself with the tasks that get performed, and also how they get performed. When jumping between office suites, people often struggle with the cooky names everything gets. Neither Excel or Calc say Spreadsheet. Consider altering your launchers. Icons can help too. Documents and downloads need to be in expected places and also look right (type icons). You also have to consider what happens when something breaks. This might be global, this might just be a particular function like printing, but veteran users usually find a way around problems that don't involve bug reports and a 2 week wait. > for upcoming event What's your lead time here? Deploying something significantly new to production without some burn-in and fault-finding time is a mistake, whatever the change. Check that there are no device requirements your solution won't fulfil (eg does it work with projectors) There's nothing wrong with Linux. Most people can get along with it fine. The Power Karens in here likening this to abuse are over-reacting. Ask her to try it. See if it sticks.
phendrenad2 4y ago
If you have to come to HN to ask about the best ways to convert someone to Linux, you should maybe consider that your reasons are ideological and not based on what's best for that person. Just a thought.

superchroma 4y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
I love my child, but if see said child doing something I think won't work well, I hesitate to not act. There is a benefit to allow a person fall and learn. I would venture same applies to my wife. I am not sure this is pushing anyone around, but I will admit you made me hesitate a little bit since it is pretty imposing.
- yuppie_scum 4y ago
  Your wife is not a child, hopefully
  - NoGravitas 4y ago
    This is HN, though. Lots of Libertarians here.
    - zo1 4y ago
      And none of them equate an adult partner as a child. Is that really what goes on in your head when you think Libertarian?
- superchroma 4y ago
  But she's not your child, she's your wife! Your adult wife. She has a lifetime of legitimate experiences and is at the wheel of her ship, and, at this time in the cosmos, you happen to be cruising together in the same direction. Take care not to infantilize her. You don't live inside her skull. You don't know what her choices and learned experiences mean to her, and how much she values them, in exactly the same way she doesn't for yours, it's unknowable.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Frankly - this is a statement that is completely disconnected from the post. He's getting asked to purchase a laptop for her - that means this is a place where she's already deferring to his choices on tech (likely for good reason - he's probably the domain expert in the family, whether he wanted it or not). > "she has a lifetime of legitimate experiences and is at the wheel of her ship" I utterly agree - so she can go buy her own laptop and set it up herself if it's really bugging her. If she's defaulting to him for these chores... then she gets the output he gives her.
    - superchroma 4y ago
      In my perspective, "if you want me to do it for you, you're going to get it done my way" is not a good relationship hill to die on.
      - horsawlarway 4y ago
        They're doing it, it will be done the way they do it. There's just no way to avoid that. A good relationship means "you're going to get it done my way" includes compromise and conversation. This one clearly already has - since the initial suggestion of a simple ssd upgrade was vetoed. Is he making a mistake? Maybe - who gives a fuck. That's for him and his wife to discuss afterwards. Why are you so eager to assume malicious intent here?
    - that_guy_iain 4y ago
      He's getting asked to purchase her a Windows laptop. This means that she has already decided what she wants. And OP wants to ignore that. Basically, what she is asking him to do is buy a laptop with good specs at a good price that has Windows installed. It's the specs she wants input on. If you ask someone to buy you a clock and they buy you a watch because they think clocks are outdated and they prefer watches even though they know you prefer clocks. You would be annoyed.
      - horsawlarway 4y ago
        He's getting asked to do a chore for his wife because she thinks he'll do a better job. If she knows what she wants - why ask him at all? Just go do it. If she doesn't know what she wants - then be prepared to get his full input (in this case - new hardware plus try linux). Should she be able to ignore his input? Sure. She's a grown up, she can do the chore herself in any way she wants. Basically - don't expect to force someone to be your free tech support because they happen to be your husband, and then also force them to do your tech support your way. In the same way that you shouldn't trust a friend to get you "exactly the clock your want" if you ask for it for your birthday or christmas - a lot of times you'll get a watch instead, because it's close enough and they got to pick it using their own expertise. You can make all sorts of assumptions about their relationship and whether this is a good idea or not, but we aren't them and we don't have the answer to that (who the fuck knows - it's unlikely - but maybe she'll end up loving it. Or maybe she hates it and divorces him. Or maybe she acts like a grown up and installs windows on it herself afterwards.)
yebyen 4y ago
> Windows isn't heroin, people don't need interventions off of it. This is exactly what someone who is addicted to Windows would say. I bought a Woot special laptop a few weeks ago and I was absolutely floored to see the number of ads in the default installation of Windows! (Not really, I've been randomly wandering back to Windows a few times over the last 20 years, and I'm mostly desensitized to it by now, but I still notice) It came with Windows on it, and it came with thermal issues. As soon as I had it running for more than 10-20 minutes, the CPU (an 8-core) would top out at about 12%, limping along on a single core's worth, with no other visible indication of any problems. I tried everything I could think of, including a new application of thermal paste on all the internal components, and basically everything short of sending it back all to no avail. But then I thought to install Linux... which actually allows the CPU to idle when you're not trying to do anything, and if there still remains any thermal problem, well, it's frankly undetectable to me while running Linux. This is an anecdote, but I bought this laptop for my wife, (with Windows on it, on purpose, as I knew that's what she'd want) as a replacement for a more expensive laptop (which is not that old and also runs Windows, but is already "aging" (WTF?)) and it already feels like a piece of trash, until I remove the "virus." I'm already Mr. Tech Support, there's no escaping it. The best practice to me is not to run spyware on your computer. This is something I'll be doing to empower her. She is a biologist and and ecologist, and she already started learning Git on her own to collab better with more HPC-focused data-science people. (I'm very proud of her, if that's not already obviously oozing out.)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >This is exactly what someone who is addicted to Windows would say. This is exactly what a GNU/Neckbeard would say. Addiction to an OS? Come on. It's not crack cocaine and it's not tik-tok. It's a tool that let's people do work and fun. I'm a huge Linux nerd myself but computing for most people is best when it involves the least amount of friction and zero learning curve. I tried migrating people to linux and it rarely went well: "Oh yea, now we can't read your external HDD because that's NTFS and Linux kernel doesn't have drivers for that yet, we can add them manually", "Oh yeah, that tearing you see is because you need to enable tear-free in the config file, haha, don't worry, it will be smooth like Windows when we finally switch to Wayland"; "Oh yeah, your laptop's fans now scream when watching YouTube because Chrome doesn't have GPU acceleration by default enabled and your laptop has an Nvidia chip who's drivers don't play well with linux but don't worry, that's not Linux's fault, that's Google's and Nvidia's fault haha. The fix is quite simple you see, we just go in Chrome config flags and then to the Arch wiki and modify these command line inputs to ..."
horsawlarway 4y ago
You see this type of post here because HN tends to attract the type of person that usually has the mantle of "tech expert" in families (often times, much to their regret and dismay...). It doesn't really have jack shit to do with gender in any way other than the historical imbalance in the IT space meaning the person here is more likely to be male (and frankly - that's changing somewhat, as well it should). The same type of posts pop up for grandparents all the time, and kids, and aunts/uncles/extended family. It's not about "controlling his wife" it's about doing literally the exact thing you wanted: > "teach her best practices, from a place of love, to empower her." That's literally this post. He's trying to make a tech decision he thinks is correct (whether it is or not is moot), when he's clearly been placed in a spot to make those decisions, since it seems like he's setting up the machines and making the purchases (and his first suggestion of "update to an ssd" was vetoed.) He's then working to ease the pain points of that choice by asking for a more coherent and less jarring way to do it here. Did he make the right choice? Who gives a fuck - that's a conversation for him and his wife. Is this post creepy? Hardly.

erddfre3423 4y ago

>Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language. I guess you've never tried Linux Mint with Cinnamon or anything similar. I've honestly had way more issues with Windows 10 than Mint. Before switching to it I had never even touched Linux, yet I found the transition to using it as my daily driver very easy. Everything I need to do for basic use can be done through UI, it's intuitive and quite similar to what I got used to with Windows 7. The only thing I miss is some Windows-software like MS Office. It's all about which distro you choose. At work I use RHEL with Gnome and it's nowhere near as beginner-friendly as Mint with Cinnamon.

srk_hn 4y ago
I've tried Fedora, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, CentOS, and Linux Mint. They all have issues you won't discover in the initial honeymoon stages but will randomly discover issues like sleep mode not working consistently, wifi disconnecting, second monitor not working, battery draining, etc. If your hardware combination works with 0 issues, consider yourself lucky, but if you plan to upgrade your hardware you need to set aside hours of your time just in case you have issues. If you're making any sort of serious $$ with your machine and Linux is not a hard requirement, good luck making that investment of time worth it. I know that if I have an issue with Windows a quick Google search and I can find a solution within minutes. But I don't think I will ever return to debugging for hours why my 2nd monitor with an AMD card refused to work after my Ubuntu desktop went to sleep.
- erddfre3423 4y ago
  Yeah, I think that for new hardware there's more chance of compatibility issues. But when it comes to old hardware that's too slow for Windows, I think installing used SSD and something like Mint is always a good idea over buying a new machine just to run browser on Windows. Good for the planet and your wallet. Personally I use a Thinkpad from 2011 as my daily-driver outside of work, couldn't be happier but it probably wouldn't really work well with Win 10.

yazzku 4y ago

> and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language. Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022?

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
We clearly don't live in the same 2022 then. Windows 11 has no high-dpi issues for me today on my 4ik monitor. And I even run 20 year old software and games on it. That has been a non-issue since later Windows 10 versions from like 2017. And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with.
- blendergeek 4y ago
  This post called out Linux for having an inconsistent UI: > and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language. This reply pointed out that Windows also has an inconsistent UI: > Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022? This reply to that post states, "well users don't actually care": > And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with. It causes "a mishmash of sofware with no consistent UI language" on Windows. Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things. At least on Windows 10 it was a nightmare of "which settings app from which generation of UI has that setting in it?".
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things. Average users don't know or care about any of that. That's a nitpicking issue for you because you know them all and are looking for flaws so you know where to look to go "A-ha, see, there's multiple ways to change settings!", but most users will not be bothered by any of that as they will always end up in the Settings panel in Windows 11 whenever you're trying to change something, and it has all the setting you need in a searchable categorized way, from screen resolution, to security, updates, internet connection, mouse acceleration to accessibility, since to find the old control panel you need to actually open it yourself manually, as it's never opened or suggested by any windows 11 setting itself, so again, this is a non-issue for average users just a nitpick from haters. No need to break out the old control panel unless you're doing complex sys-admin things. And what's wrong with having two ways in which to change the settings, a new and a legacy way? Even linux distros have that and it's considered a plus. That's like saying Linux is inconsistent because you can change a setting in the GUI and via the command line.
    - yazzku 4y ago
      What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX. Not to mention that half the windows on Control Panel are not resizable and the font does not scale with the rest of the system. Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer. You clearly don't use Windows very much.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX Why is that sub optimal? Nobody is forcing you to go looking for and dig up the old control panel especially that the average user has no idea the control panel even exists as it's hidden away since the Settings menu is always prevalent when searching for a setting and does everything. If the user can do everything using the default Settings app, what's the problem with the existence of the control panel hidden away in the bowels for sys-admins and legacy use cases? You're grasping at straws here for an argument. That's like saying "my car has an UX issues because it lets me change the volume of the radio from two different places, the radio front panel knob and the buttons on my steering wheel, and those buttons look different than the knob". >Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer. It's 2022. If you need to poke around in control panel to install a printer you might be writing this from windows 95 or from a stuffy corporate environment in which case IT will do it for you. Windows 10 & 11 automatically installed my Canon and my Brother printers at home. It's 2022.

yebyen 4y ago
> What if the lady actually enjoys the thing, then let her enjoy the thing. She doesn't, that was where we started. She knows (thinks) she has to use it, but the things she is doing can all be done on Linux, and she is only ever complaining about the computer. RStudio Cloud works just as well on Linux. What do you call it when someone has a thing they do every day for many years, in spite of the obvious drawbacks, knowing that there are well-trodden alternatives, and without ever having seriously considered trying the other options? If it's not "real addiction," then it's definitely another word which I'd associate with unhealthy behavior. I've been a computer people forever. I bought a $500 machine that is perfectly good, and there's no reason for me to send it back just because Windows seems to have an issue. It's less than 3 years old from the manufacturer, refurbished. There should be no problem, and without Windows there is no problem. But we get people with replies like this: > get her the best windows laptop you can afford, make sure it's secured properly with updates and such and that it "just works" $500 is plenty. Why should I spend more than that on a laptop? (Hell, they gave me back $75 just to try applying the thermal grease myself, if I can save that kind of money by being resourceful, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna show as many people as I can that they can do it too.) By the way, I should have definitely laughed at GNU/Neckbeard. That one is going in my pocket for later... LOLOL
- srk_hn 4y ago
  I would cal it valuing my time. I don't want to spend an hour or two a day learning something new when I've already invested in learning something that solves my problems good enough. Can I have gripes about the quirks and how some things could be better? Sure. Is it worth throwing the baby with the bathwater and learning something entirely new? Highly unlikely.
  - yebyen 4y ago
    > I don't want to spend an hour or two a day learning something new when I've already invested in learning something that solves my problems good enough. This is exactly how I felt after about 20 years of using Linux since the age of 14. Windows 7? 8? 10? 11? No thanks, I don't want to learn it, I've already had 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, XP, I enjoyed it throughout my childhood, (and then I became a man and put away childish things.) That's plenty of time for me to consider whether I really want to leave Windows or not, and I don't regret switching to Debian, it does basically everything I need. 20 years later, I've had lots of time to think about it, and I'm definitely still a Linux user. (And a Mac user... anything but Windows really.)
    - srk_hn 4y ago
      I use MacOS / Linux all the time. I still use Windows for gaming because nothing comes close.
      - yebyen 4y ago
        Maybe not entirely put away childish things... :) I still enjoy Minecraft, KSP, both of which can be played anywhere! I have a feeling that's not what you mean when you say gaming though
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >after about 20 years of using Linux since the age of 14. Most Average Joes that haven't had this Linux baptism through fire from an early ages definitely won't see eye to eye with you on the greatness of Linux. They just want their known shit to work out of the box. They don't want to format USB sticks with ISOs ("I can't find any 'Linux', is Ubuntu 'a Linux'? What is an ISO?), format and portion their disks, install and learn a new OS, figure out which command line commands enable HW video acceleration in Chrome, figure out why their screen is tearing, figure out why the webcam now doesn't work, etc. That's why Linux PC market share is still insignificant in 2022.
      - yebyen 4y ago
        You're not wrong, but the experience in 2022 is much, much, much better than in 2004. At that time, the main bragging right was at lan parties – I wasn't getting any tearing, in fact if I ran Quake 3 in Windows, there was a noticeable lag while the (whatever it was) was (doing something in the background) that was definitely not present on Linux. Baptism through fire is a good way to put it. Back in my day, we had one-way cable modems and you still had to dial in for your upstream! It was on the ISA bus, have you ever seen an IRQ? trailing off...