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Riding in a peloton is the most energy efficient locomotion – research (2018)
- bbojan 4y ago"It’s long been known that an average person on a bicycle is a more efficient translator of energy per gram per kilometre than any other machine or animal..." I love bicycles!
- hirundo 4y agoTailgaiting is hypermiling. We're close to having the tech necessary to make the tailgating safe. A critical mass of cooperating auto pilot software should do it.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago> We're close to having the tech necessary to make the tailgating safe. A critical mass of cooperating auto pilot software should do it. Technically you are already there. All train and metro carriages already do this. :)
- dopidopHN 4y agoThanks for sanity
- nomel 4y agoThis is an extremely small fraction of traffic (edit: in large countries like America), and only works if you're all going to the same place. Being able to zip onto the freeway, then insert/connect/merge into the "road train", perhaps with charging, could be amazing.
- rzzzt 4y agoEven without a physical connection, a "virtual trailer hitch" would be easier to implement (I imagine, hah) than a general autopilot. The control loop would have to reference the next vehicle in the chain, and adjust the speed to maintain a constant distance from it, as well as keep the centerlines of the two vehicles aligned. For emergency braking and other surprise situations a broadcast system would be useful.
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago> This is an extremely small fraction of traffic Public transit was made into a small fraction of traffic. [0] It absolutely doesn't have to be that way. If you live in a city you are likely going somewhere that a lot of other people are going to as well. With proper urban planning a door to door car should only really make sense in a rural environment. And that is absolutely a needed mindshift to curb GHG emissions. I made a deliberate choice of moving to a country and city with good governance and planning. I haven't owned a car in 5 years. When I do absolutely need a car I will just rent one for a weekend trip or for hauling big things. It still is a huge saving. The only pro-car argument I can think of is the prepper aspect of having a getaway vehicle in the event of a natural disaster. [0] https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562007/streetcar-history-demise https://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562007/streetcar-history-demis...
- nomel 4y ago> Public transit was made into a small fraction of traffic. I think "was made" is the key term, since that is what defines the current state of reality, which is where our solutions must exist. Any feasible solution will not requiring destroying the last 100 years of development, in the US. Improvements are still a good thing, especially if they can be implemented as a glorified, cooperative, cruise control. I'm all for rail, since more trams could mean my 20 minute drive wouldn't have to be 3 hours by track + bus + 3 mile walk, but putting enough metal on the ground isn't trivial [1]. 1. https://www.vox.com/videos/2022/7/29/23283654/california-high-speed-rail-palmdale-warning https://www.vox.com/videos/2022/7/29/23283654/california-hig...
- nicoburns 4y agoWorth noting that Europe went a long towards being car centric during the 20th century, and has since revered course. Of course, it was never as car centric as the US is, but it absolutely can be done.
- nomel 4y ago> but it absolutely can be done. Could you explain how this could be approached, with the wide sprawl of suburbs that exists, today?
- crote 4y agoIn The Netherlands, cars drove a total of 100 billion kilometers in 2019. For comparison, a total of 30 billion passenger-kilometers were made on public transit during the same year. Granted, that's counting vehicle-kilometers and not person-kilometers for cars, but calling it an "extremely small fraction" is not quite accurate. ;-)
- nomel 4y agoSorry, I was speaking from an American mind. Here, 45% don't have access to public transit. Around 5% use it daily or weekly [1]. Statistics are much better in dense cities. 1. https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/us-public-transit-has-struggled-retain-riders-over-past-half-century-reversing-trend-could-advance-equity-and-sustainability https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/us-public-transit-has-strug...
- pornel 4y agoRolling resistance of vehicles with rubber tires is an order of magnitude worse than steel wheels of a train. Steel wheels are the key reason why trains are so efficient.
- nomel 4y agoSince it's not feasible to lay track everywhere, and since this could be implemented in software, it could be an achievable, relatively cheap, and possibly near term, improvement. "Long range" road trains could include some hardware. This isn't some new idea [1], so I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted. This has always been a goal for self driving. 1. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1076588_sartre-self-driving-road-train-takes-to-public-roads-video https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1076588_sartre-self-driv...
- pornel 4y agoThe track isn't an inconvenience to be removed, track is the major source of the efficiency. Rubber-wheeled train cosplay would not achieve the same levels of efficiency.
- adrianN 4y agoIn Berlin the majority of commutes are on public transport, even though the public transport system is far from perfect.
- phailhaus 4y ago"Critical mass" only makes sense in systems where you need a minimum concentration to achieve a self-sustaining feedback loop, but traffic is not such a system. You just need two cars to get the benefits of hypermiling via tailgating. But the amount of cooperation needed between the two cars is such that we'll probably never see it outside of long-haul trucks, and even then only within fleets operated by the same company.
- bluGill 4y agoI think for long haul trucks if this ever works every company will want in, and want each other in. Maybe there will be some system to ensure no cheating (pay the lead truck?), but there are enough companies that run trucks that it is easy to create a convoy on the fly, with someone else, but much harder to get one for your company.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoIt will be banned as soon as enough people are killed by the carnage caused when a lead truck causes a chain reaction among those following.
- bluGill 4y agoSome safety is assumed from the start. Right now such things are banned and truckers are much more likely than average to actually maintain safe following distances.
- Lio 4y agoWould Adaptive Cruise Control count as an existing system to do this? It’s not that close granted but it does improve safety by watching the car in front on a long drive.
- hprotagonist 4y agothe air resistance savings in a paceline are absolutely insane to experience. Even with just one riding partner, we can go significantly farther on a ride.
- agumonkey 4y agoHas there been long races with wind-shield on bike. Not windshields per se but just something to increase air penetration.
- InCityDreams 4y agohttps://youtu.be/5wmGp2pKF60 https://youtu.be/5wmGp2pKF60 - echelon explained. Personally i average 25-27kmh. With a friend or two 32-37, in a bunch 40+kmh, easy. * It's just such a shame that a group >3 of cyclists turn into such a selfish bunch of self-entitled twats, i avoid them like the vermin they are. I average 100-350km+ a week or ride before anyone gets too upset at that uncalled-for statement :-) Oh, and i can recommend the website intervals.icu - amazing cycling-analytic tech on display.
- mvc 4y agoWe're allowed to refer to groups of people on here as "vermin" and "self-entitled twats"? Doesn't seem very kind. You think because you ride a lot gives you permission to refer to people in that way?
- bosswipe 4y agoWhy would you need a supercomputer to figure this out instead of putting simple sensors on the bikes in a peloton?
- rconti 4y agoThey all already have power meters! It seems like you should know that 2 riders of similar weight and profile are doing vastly different amounts of work, and extrapolate from there. Of course, you won't be doing 5-10% the output because there's still mechanical losses and rolling losses, but they should have decent models of those as well.
- crote 4y agoBecause the sensors aren't simple and there would be too many variables to account for. The riders are not exact clones of each others. The bikes aren't going to be exactly identical either. You won't be able to have them ride in an exact straight line with zero wind and zero temperature fluctuation. You won't be able to track the position of 100+ riders to within sub-centimeter precision while moving at 60km/h. The actual power measurement is easy: they already have sensors for that. But good luck trying to get them to give you that data: it's like asking a Formula 1 team for their engine performance data!
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- afterburner 4y agoThey can use the computer sim for many other things. Not to mention they don't have to hire or coordinate any cyclists.
- JoeAltmaier 4y agoThe study is good, with the possible exception of using stationary (terra-cotta) riders in the wind tunnel. It seems possible that moving riders would create turbulence that would change the equation.
- maxerickson 4y agoAdditional turbulence? The air moving around the stationary riders will be turbulent.
- lbriner 4y agoYes but the interactions of moving objects are much more complex and are likely to cause inefficiencies. Obviously the amount of that would be hard to measure in real world conditions.
- shmapf 4y agoFor anyone as confused as I was, peloton is the term for riding bicycles close together in a group. Not the brand of indoor exercise machines.
- hackernewds 4y agoThank you. Testament to the strength of Peloton's brand that most of us related to the exercise bike right away. Unfortunately brand does not sustain a company in the absence of a product+price market fit
- mupuff1234 4y agoImo there is a product+price market fit, just lacking the ego fit.
- Kukumber 4y agoIt's not the "strength of the brand", it's a brand name that should have never been allowed in the first place because of that kind of confusion, that's specially why they went with that name, they knew, it is market manipulation, for the same reason Phone is not allowed as a phone brand That brand is only known in few US states, the world refer to peloton as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloton
- Lio 4y agoThis! They actually had the balls to threaten a few bloggers for using the term peloton correctly on YouTube. Luckily the blogger didn’t give in and the exercise firm had to back down. I also note that tickets to the (most excellent) Tour of Flanders came from a different firm also calling themselves Peloton. So the exercise bike group aren’t exclusively trading under name either.
- morpheuskafka 4y agoThere's a difference between whether a name is sufficiently distinguished to trademark and whether it is prohibited as "market manipulation." One certainly could not trademark the word "phone," but it would be perfectly legal to sell a phone branded as such.
- cyclingfarther 4y agoYou can always gain efficiency by giving up safety. Just look up peloton crashes. Or imagine cars driving like that.
- Unearned5161 4y agoI'd say it depends on the group, if you have a group of riders that know each other and have ridden in packs before then the risk of issues are slim. Essentially just stuff that probably would have given you trouble riding alone anyway. The risk starts when you either have a race going on or you have riders that are inexperienced and don't know the customs/procedures.
- Lio 4y agoYep. It’s definitely something you want to train for. It’s one of the main reasons to join a bike club. A good group will call out obstacles in the road and say when the are going to slow down. They’ll have set procedures to move the group round when the riders at the front get tired. The experience of being pulled along faster than you could ride on your own is a truely joyous experience! :D
- jamiek88 4y ago> The experience of being pulled along faster than you could ride on your own is a truely joyous experience! It truly is! As a kid we used to hide behind the double decker busses on our mountain bikes at the stop and accelerate with it when it got going again. We’d be riding only a few feet from the rear of the bus and it’d pull us up the big hill home so fast. The bus driver used to get really annoyed and eventually snitched to the school so we had an assembly about it ! boys are stupid! I’d never have the balls to do that now!
- username223 4y agoHaha! I remember latching onto school buses and other large vehicles at stoplights when I was younger. Stay close enough, and you could get sucked along at incredible speeds. It was interesting how some drivers would get super-pissed, while others would think "hey, that's awesome!" and help you stay attached. Riding in a pack is a whole different experience, though. You have to be hyper-aware and -predictable in your lines, but the feeling of cruising along at over 20 MPH on a flat, aided only by your fellow cyclists, is something special.
- antipaul 4y agoI thought you stay in once place on a Peloton bike??
- _ph_ 4y agoI would like to have seen a comparison to a state-of-the-art velomobile though. They have greatly reduced drag compared to a single cyclist too.
- gonzo41 4y agoBig Triangle (UCI) will never let that happen. They have a stake in keeping that technology supressed. Just like big oil and the electric car. :P
- _ph_ 4y agoWell, this is not about UCI regulations, it is about what is physically most efficient. But indeed, it is a pity that the UCI blocks any new bicycle designs.
- chrisshroba 4y agoWhere can I learn more about this?
- pmontra 4y agoThe UCI regulations for equipment are at https://www.uci.org/equipment/bh2JJzw1eB0n876rX2iB1 https://www.uci.org/equipment/bh2JJzw1eB0n876rX2iB1
- pmontra 4y agoTheir goal is to keep race bicycles close to bicycles used by normal people. They don't want to end up with Formula 1 or Indycar cars vs the car we use to go to the mall. Both have 4 wheels but that's it. However there are competitions for non UCI bicycles. The speed world records are among them.
- kllrnohj 4y agoAlthough F1 & IndyCar both ban performance-enhancing technologies that every single road-going car is required to have, specifically ABS & traction control. They are a weird mix of extremely cutting edge & expensive and also intentionally outdated & bad technology. And before someone jumps in about how those technologies are actually somehow bad for the track or race car drivers don't benefit from them, F1 actually had to give up their 1994 ban because every team was doing it anyway and the FIA couldn't adequately police it until the ECU itself was made standard in 2008: https://racingnews365.com/traction-control-in-f1-a-short-history https://racingnews365.com/traction-control-in-f1-a-short-his...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Waterluvian 4y agoThere’s YouTube videos of a guy who, on a downhill stretch, gets on his tummy and is like a rigid dart flying through the air, overtaking everyone at a ridiculous speed. I was always curious if it was real and why not everyone does it.
- TremendousJudge 4y agoNot sure about the specific video, but it can be done[0]. It is extremely dangerous of course, which I guess is why most people don't try to do it. It may also even be against regulations. [0] Example of a particularly dangerous version: https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=133 https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=133
- latchkey 4y agoThe guy is on a fixie. Likely got to an RPM point on the downhill where it was actually safer to pull his feet off the pedals. This isn't really as unsafe as it looks... or at least not any more dangerous than keeping their feet on the pedals at that speed. I spent a lot of time riding around velodromes... you only forget to stop peddling once on a fixie. It is like riding a bucking horse. Perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXJmELmmXos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXJmELmmXos
- TremendousJudge 4y agoIt's the clipping back that's more dangerous
- latchkey 4y agoNot really... you can watch him do it here https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=297 https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=297 and here: https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=630 https://youtu.be/p0mE2b5zu48?t=630 The guy obviously has skill and experience on two wheels, you kind of picked a poor example.
- schoen 4y ago
- smm11 4y agoA cycling peloton is just humans imitating birds. If Peloton, the company, did not want to lose lawsuits it should have used a word that wasn't already in use in the same neighborhood. They could have called the company Wopat or something, and people still would have bought the things (given Covid, but still).
- michaelwww 4y agoI'm glad they specified "planet" because bicycle riding on the Moon is probably the most energy efficient human locomotion
- dang 4y agoOk, we've uncleared that up in the title above. Thanks!
- tokai 4y agoYou forgot to put in the year.
- WalterBright 4y agoUntil you get moon dust in the gears!
- michaelwww 4y agoThe robots who will maintain bike paths on the Moon will take care of that problem
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sockaddr 4y agoI think a spore floating thousands of miles simply because of its geometry is the most efficient.
- ars 4y ago"It’s long been known that an average person on a bicycle is a more efficient translator of energy per gram per kilometre than any other machine or animal" Yah, that's not actually true. A human is around 25% efficient (counting only the actual energy in the food), while electric cars are around 60%. And if you count the energy needed to grow the food, even gas cars are more efficient than humans. And that's even if you only count the payload and not the weight of the vehicle. And flying birds easily are more efficient than humans on a bike because they can use wind to help them.
- pclmulqdq 4y agoGiven that the energy used for both humans and electric cars is about 50% from dinosaurs, an internal combustion engine car has better efficiency on dinosaur to joule conversion than an electric car. So a human is basically not competitive with any form of transportation.
- nonameiguess 4y agoIt's giving you the metric right there. Energy consumed per gram of weight moved per kilometre traveled. Not percentage of energy used for locomotion versus lost as heat (note that maintaining internal homeostasis in a human is not exactly "losing" energy to heat, but certainly some excess is generated when you're exercising as opposed to just sitting around). You're definitely still right about creatures that can simply catch sea and air currents, though.
- ars 4y agoYes, I saw that metric, and my point stands. Cars are more efficient than humans, even humans on bikes. > note that maintaining internal homeostasis in a human is not exactly "losing" energy to heat If you bike a lot you will eat more. People tend to forget that and assuming the biking is "free" energy. I guess if it's just a causal activity then it is, but if you do it to commute you will end up eating more.
- fyvhbhn 4y agoWell, humans can use Windpower as well (e-bikes)
- twawaaay 4y agoAnd I thought that paragliding or traveling by boat downriver are more efficient. I guess I was wrong.
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- henry_bone 4y agoI think I've known this for years. When I was a kid I had a book entitled "How things work". In it was a large picture, spread across 2 pages, showing birds, land animals, people in cars, trains, aeroplanes etc, all moving from left to right as if in a race. Above each participant was a figure indicating something like Joules per gram. The "participants" in the "race" were ranked according to this figure, with the front-runners having the lowest associated values. Waay out in front was a man on a bicycle. Add in the help of cumulative drag and sharing the load against the wind resistance, it makes sense.
- everyone 4y agoAlso taking into account the embodied energy of the bike?
- bandyaboot 4y agoI got the chance to ride in a pretty large and fast formation during an otherwise casual charity ride a few years back. Really enjoyable and a bit nerve wracking at the same time being in close quarters like that. When in the middle of the pack, it was pretty amazing how little energy it took to maintain speed--just a few half-hearted pedal strokes every few seconds. Any more and you'd start creeping up on the rear tire of the person in front of you. edit: Forgot the best part. The formation ended when someone near the front swerved to avoid a hole in the trail. Person behind them--taken by surprise--abruptly braked. Chaos ensued. Chaos propagated upstream and eventually got to me. I ran over a downed bike and flew over my own bike landing on my handle bars--broke a rib (though didn't know it until a few days later). Why would the organizers of a casual charity ride allow formation riding, you ask? They don't.
- brippalcharrid 4y agoYou mentioned it was on a trail; normally you'd only have a peloton on a paved road where the event organizers had checked the surfaces beforehand. You get some fairly close formation riding in (road) club runs as well, but riders are typically less closely bunched together, subject to conditions, experience and the level of competitiveness that morning.
- hinkley 4y agoClubs tend to pick known routes as well.
- bandyaboot 4y agoYeah, I chose to use “formation” rather than “peloton” because the latter would have been a stretch. It was two long, closely packed columns. It definitely was ill-advised and ended exactly how it should have.
- cerol 4y agoAlthough I'm a marathon runner, I've dabbled in speed cycling many times, and rode in a "pro" peloton (amateur pro) for a while. There are a couple of rules you end up learning. 1. When you're leading a peloton, never go aero (when you lower your upper body so you're "cutting the wind"). Always keep your eyes on the road ahead, looking for potholes. 2. Whenever you spot a pothole, call it. Shout "pothole", loud and clear. As you go around it, point to it for the person behind you. 3. When someone in front of you shouts "pothole" and points to it, shout "pothole" and point to it, recursively. 4. Never break abruptly in the middle of a peloton. 5. For maximum efficiency and safety, your front wheel should a wheel's distance from the rear wheel of the bike in front of you. 6. If you need to do anything that is somewhat abrupt, like leaving the peloton, always warn, loud and clear.
- tomger 4y agoMeanwhile if you have a Peloton™ bike at home, you’re probably looking at the _least_ energy efficient locomotion.
- wyldfire 4y agoI was thinking of the brand name when I read the headline. I didn't know it referred to something real.
- xattt 4y agoI had to double check it wasn’t an Onion article.
- godelski 4y agoI was confused and googled it and the first page was the brand until I added "what is a" to the search. Sometimes the model is over fit.
- executesorder66 4y agoPeloton™ bikes are not real, apparently.
- fomine3 4y agoArithmeticException is thrown
- 29athrowaway 4y agoIt gets you from A to A in 0 seconds
- leshenka 4y agoUh oh, undefined speed. Not something I would pay for.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- paulpauper 4y ago“Man on a bicycle can go three or four times faster than the pedestrian, but uses five times less energy in the process. He carries one gram of his weight over a kilometre of flat road at an expense of only 0.15 calories. The bicycle is the perfect transducer to match man’s metabolic energy to the impedance of locomotion. Equipped with this tool, man outstrips the efficiency of not only all machines but all other animals as well. What about uphill or uneven terrain. going downhill on bike is very efficient too. You can test this by rolling a ball down even a slight grade. Yes, in artificial conditions bikes are better.
- joexner 4y agoOr through water?
- tomcam 4y agoI’m not the only underwater cyclist?
- ungamedplayer 4y agoSays you.
- vidanay 4y ago> but uses five times less energy One fifth goddammit!
- neither_color 4y agoFun/grim fact that's related to your question about terrain: In world war 2 the Japanese army used bicycles to invade Malaysia and modern Singapore and it was highly effective. It allowed them to continuously advance faster than retreating British forces on foot and vehicle. The key point being it was more viable to put thousands of troops on bicycles than to put them all on vehicles that could go through rugged terrain and jungle. Under normal conditions, retreating armies move faster than their pursuers because the invaders are slowed down by destroyed infrastructure such as blown-up bridges or obstructed roads. But this time, Japanese soldiers on light bicycles were able to use narrow roads, hidden paths and improvised log bridges. Even when bridges were missing, soldiers waded across the rivers carrying their bicycles on their shoulders. The bicycles also proved to be an excellent help in the transportation of equipment. While the British soldiers carried up to 18 kilograms while marching through the jungle, their Japanese enemies could carry twice as much, benefiting from the distribution of weight onto two wheels. “Even the long-legged Englishmen could not escape our bicycles”, remembered Colonel Masanobu Tsuji. https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2019/06/28/japanese-style-bicycle-blitzkrieg/ https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2019/06/28/japanese-style...
- paulpauper 4y agoIt seems like having more people makes everything more efficient. For example, with hiking if you have 100 + people single file on a trail , the guy in front can stop, take a break, and rejoin at the end without everyone having to stop. repeat.
- tomcam 4y agowut
- aqfamnzc 4y agoBut the line of people overall shifts back one person each time, so the average speed would still be the same as if the guy was alone.
- paulpauper 4y agoi think it can work if the second to first person on the line does not shift immedialty after the first person but waits until the first person rejoins at the end.
- InitialLastName 4y agoThe second person starts the process 1 person-space behind the front of the line. Every person who takes a break and moves to the back moves the front of the group back by one person-space. From an individual perspective, how is it any faster than walking alone (or everyone taking the same break at once, assuming they don't take any time to regroup or string out). If it isn't more efficient from any given person's perspective (for all of the walkers), it isn't better for the group.
- WalterBright 4y agoIf bicycles are so efficient, one wonders why motorcycles are not. As for evolution, bicycles require smooth roads, which are not naturally encountered at all.
- fyvhbhn 4y agoFriction, weight, engine, aerodynamics
- ptmcc 4y agoMotorcycles can be insanely efficient, some pretty ordinary ones achieve well over 100mpg. But internal combustion engines themselves are pretty maxed out on efficiency, in the mid 30% range. At least in the US, motorcycles are more often toys than tools so people buy bikes that emphasize other characteristics at the great expense of efficiency, and the more practical and efficient options are not even for sale.
- WalterBright 4y agoAre human muscles more efficient than motorcycle engines?
- ip26 4y agoBicycles have 200-300W to work with. Motorcycles have 50,000-125,000W to work with. One puts a far higher premium on efficiency than the other.
- adrianN 4y agoIf you optimized a motorcycle for a top speed of around 30mph it would be very efficient too (and look a lot like an electric bicycle).
- ummonk 4y ago> It’s long been known that an average person on a bicycle is a more efficient translator of energy per gram per kilometre than any other machine or animal This seems highly questionable. I would hazard a guess for example that cargo ships are significantly more energy efficient per gram per kilometer. Edit: indeed my intuition was right, going by Wikipedia. Domestic waterborn and rail can transport a metric ton (i.e. 1000 kg) of freight 4-6 km using 1 MJ of energy. By contrast, a velomobile can transport a person ~12 km using 1 MJ of energy, but a person weights only about 70 kg.
- pkulak 4y agoMy bet is on freight trains.
- theptip 4y agoNeither of those translate energy from the human to the conveyance though.
- vidanay 4y ago> any other machine or animal It doesn't say it's limited to humans.
- vidanay 4y agoPeregrine Falcon in a dive?
- InitialLastName 4y agoIf you're only going to count the "going with gravity" part, a ball falling out of the sky is very efficient too.
- idontwantthis 4y agoMountain bikes are most efficient when you ride them off a cliff.
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- dogmatism 4y agoThey weren’t on my group ride tonight
- kazinator 4y agoI once drafted behind a 2 ton truck that was doing about 45 km/h, over the space of about a mile. It felt like cycling down a gentle hill: just a minimal effort to maintain speed.
- iou 4y agoAnyone else misread this as “on a Peloton”?
- kidme5 4y ago100% efficiency if the back rider just hitches a rope to his peloton.
- manuel_w 4y agoNon-native speaker here. Didn't know what a "Peloton" is, but assumed it's what we call "Pedalo" [1]. Gave me quite a laugh when opening OPs link. ;-) [1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pedalo https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pedalo
- rkagerer 4y agoIt’s long been known that an average person on a bicycle is a more efficient translator of energy per gram per kilometre than any other machine or animal, but this new research suggests that a cyclist shielded from the wind is even more energy efficient than, say, a hang-glider. What are they counting as the input energy for a hang-glider?
- rkagerer 4y agoI kind of think of it as "free" in the way a ball falling from a height doesn't require any fuel to locomote. Yes, you put energy into the throw. But if you count the guy hauling a hang-glider up a hill (or in other words it's potential energy at the top), I wouldn't think of hang-gliders as energy efficient at all. So either way I'm having trouble reconciling the comparison. Either they're infinitely efficient (zero input energy) or not comparably efficient. Maybe they're counting the twitches / muscle movements and such of steering the apparatus while in flight?
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- pollux01 4y agoIs'nt this bad for peloton sales?. Don't you need to be not so efficient to burn calories.
- astannard 4y agoI cycled the UK coast to coast with friends. We did a peleton on a boring straight cycle track that went on for many miles. We managed to do 20mph for a couple of hours with each of us taking a turn at the front for 5 minutes a time. I've also done track cycling where you leave a 30cm gap between wheels and have no brakes. That is truly unnerving.
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- eru 4y agoI call bullshit on the title. Those guys didn't even check recumbent bikes. And they didn't check having a cover around riders, either. If you want to go for full efficiency, safety or practicality be damned, a recumbent that makes you lie basically flat just above the ground and covered all over should be really efficient. For maximum insanity, lie prone. Or, since they allowed multiple riders, you could build a contraption that allows multiple people to ride in a recumbent position inside a single cover. See https://www.engineering.com/story/human-powered-vehicle-breaks-world-record https://www.engineering.com/story/human-powered-vehicle-brea... > Analysis of the vehicle performance showed that Eta requires less than 198 watts of pedal power at 90 km/h, which translates to a 9,544 MPGe highway fuel efficiency. According to Aerovelo, this is the highest per-passenger MPGe of any existing transportation technology at this speed. And they didn't even ride that thing in a pack.
- tokai 4y agoThe research paper is not about peloton riding being the most efficient locomotion. That is some weird angle this 'news' article puts on. That said recumbents might be the most aero dynamic bikes, but lying down pedalling is less biomechanically efficient.
- eru 4y ago> That said recumbents might be the most aero dynamic bikes, but lying down pedalling is less biomechanically efficient. Even when you have something to push against?
- tokai 4y agoYeah. Lying down your glute is not activated as much. The upright position also gives better activation of the upper body which gives much better breathing.
- eru 4y agoThanks! I guess whatever the guys who are setting the human-powered vehicle speed world records are doing is probably close to the optimal trade-off.
- tokai 4y ago(2018)
- hartator 4y agoSailing?