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Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

• daniel-s 4y ago
  If they tested horoscopes we would roll our eyes but larp as academics and it's taken seriously.
• engineer_22 4y ago
  MBTI is astrology for grad students
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• themodelplumber 4y ago
  > And that’s it—there’s simply very little data on how well the Myers-Briggs (and other type-based personality tests) measures personality and even less on how it might predict job performance. I was surprised there wasn't any mention of a very interesting issue here, i.e. MBTI and other typological instruments come with user manuals, training, etc., and those materials specifically say "do not use this for hiring". This is true even in marketing materials...Here's an example directly from the Myers-Briggs Company website: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-us/company/press/press/2021/june/assessments-in-hiring https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-us/company/press/press/202... Even as a personal growth tool the instrument itself is kinda meh, but the soft science behind it is pretty fascinating... And if you are concerned your employer is going to misuse your MBTI type somehow, 1) know your type first, ideally before they do 2) learn the associated relational blind spots and decide how you'll work around them 3) call yourself a "reformed XXXX" because basically the deeper theory is that any given personality type is similar to an illness in a lot of ways. Oh and 4) this may not be a very good workplace, good luck out there.
  • IncRnd 4y ago
    Is that really what you would do when a prospective employer asks such a question? I'd never ask about this, the number of bumps on someone's head, or if the candidate still beats their spouse. However, the best response would be a candidate who would laugh and say, "I think you know enough of my capabilities and personality from this interview process, already"
    • themodelplumber 4y ago
      If they just ask you to spit it out during an interview? I'd move on to the next interview unless desperate. I wouldn't presume about what they know about me, I'd just say, look, my understanding is that personality type factors are not considered appropriate as hiring criteria, and so it wouldn't feel right to answer that. I know some would give the type that they feel best matches the position, which, I guess they are also desperate for a job in that case. Unfortunately from what I've seen some hiring teams will give a questionnaire to fill out and a) it's not labeled as any specific type of questionnaire, plus b) you don't get to know your results. One sales company administered a combined IQ test and personality instrument this way. Pretty cringe. They had no certification or corporate permission or anything, just a copy paste test done attitude. Otherwise there's also the post-hire event in which a trainer offers insights, among which is some personality type sorting and theory, and even one on one coaching. Some of this kind of thing is absolutely worth it depending on the situation. For example you've identified someone you want to work more closely with in future projects, so you want to learn how they see themselves and their contribution. So it's best to feel it out, see if you can find a good way to respond to the specific circumstances at work without raising the stakes for yourself. Or basically broadcasting your personal relational blind spots as part of a complaint-driven process. :-)
      • IncRnd 4y ago
        I get what you're saying. I do. It's true that interviews aren't always easy to maneuver, but the interview process of today reflects the manager, teammates, and workplace of tomorrow.
        • 4y ago
  • JohnFen 4y ago
    > if you are concerned your employer is going to misuse your MBTI type somehow A potential employer will never know what my MBTI type is, so they can't misuse it.
    • themodelplumber 4y ago
      That depends. For example I was trained and tested to meet with a person and determine not only their MBTI type, but also their preferred cognitive processes, without ever talking about personality type with them. The testing was extremely difficult. But the skill is extremely valuable in knowing which questions to ask people as they try to navigate career and life change. You might be surprised to find how easy it is to make a very good guess, after all there are 16 types and this usually narrows down to 3-4 common applicant types given the job and field. If you know how to differentiate between those types, or have friends who are of those types, it's going to be hard not to make a close guess. If you want to take on the global MBTI cabal it's important to learn the game IMO. The obvious weaknesses will become your friend rather than a point of defense to get intense about. Less MBTI-sucks and more MBTI-meh. It's also available in other disciplines, e.g. I once took a course on how to determine personality characteristics from texts and emails. Some obvious stuff, but also some really fascinating ideas in there.
      • mistrial9 4y ago
        physical health conditions, context of the meeting, significant recent events and naturally, drug use, can all skew these kinds of interview classification.. not to mention motive on your part.. lots of good reasons to discard this kind of human classification as psuedo-science IMHO
        • themodelplumber 4y ago
          Who is trying to use it as a science? That wasn't mentioned anywhere. Of course there are millions of factors. Usually the interesting ones call for follow-up thinking or discussion, not outright classification...
        • 4y ago
  • analog31 4y ago
    Given that beliefs about personality types are so widespread, it shouldn't be too hard to guess which traits have positive and negative connotations, and learn to project the positive ones. This is not radically different than just making an effort to get along with people.
    • themodelplumber 4y ago
      Context is king though. Traits or expressions have different good/bad connotations according to different types/type-informed contexts, that's the basic idea of how type works, how wars are started, etc. Personality type theory shines exactly in those kinds of situations, where it works better to zoom in and look at group composition, isolating for specific perspectives and integrations, rather than zooming out to broader abstractions about humans or people in general. It very often turns out that people have radically different ideas of what it means to get along, and who that should be done with, and when. Advising people to "make an effort to get along" can be extremely offensive when all parties have nearly exhausted their known resources for doing so.
      • analog31 4y ago
        I'm assuming that folk beliefs about personality typing are more widespread than actual constructive uses for it, so that if I ever encounter the latter, I can deal with it as an exception.
  • Aeolun 4y ago
    I just come out and say it? There’s nothing wrong with knowing you are a certain type. At least it’s helpful for me to point at the ‘challenges’ section and tell people ‘I do this, please keep poking me until I give you attention’. In the same way it’s helpful to have a literal definition of how other people think, because the idea that someone might deliberately go with a suboptimal idea because they value peace is absolutely foreign to me.
    • SOLAR_FIELDS 4y ago
      Recently in startups I’ve been a part of it’s become a bit of a fad to have a short write up called “how I work” which is basically a treatise consisting of that person telling everyone else how they interact with the world. I’ve found it refreshing, actually.
      • sdoering 4y ago
        I only ever saw one of those being posted to hn quite some time ago. I must admit, that I found this specific example quite disturbing. The implied undertone was that all others should accommodate the author and change themselves to better interact with the author so that his needs were met and he could be a productive member of the work force. But what does that imply the other way around? If I were to write a play book like this, were this person to also adapt to my ways/wants? Or would this be too much to ask? Working in any professional environment to me implies adapting to others around at least a bit (without loosing what makes out our personality). Out of respect to other human beings alone I think this is decent human behavior. But as said, to me these writings sound like excuses to expect one sided adaption and I could say "pampering". But maybe that is just me.
        • iam-TJ 4y ago
          I think it may be you feeling overly cynical. I was using this style of enquiry with new hires 20+ years ago as a natural step to ensure we would get the best out of them - it just seemed like an obvious thing to do. I don't like sticking square pegs in round holes so if by understanding, and being able to accommodate, personal characteristics, we can make the person more comfortable they'll generally contribute more, faster, and better. You hate travelling in rush-hour? fine, set your own hours to fit in with the team requirements. E.g. for myself I'd say: "No distractions - if I'm obviously focused on something do NOT disturb me - send an email" and "I'm productive when my brain gets intensely into something - when it doesn't I don't sit around I go do something else" and "I work better in darkness or dim light, or overnight" and "Sometimes I need to do intense random brain-storming sessions to clear the crap out my head".
  • mellavora 4y ago
    > basically the deeper theory is that any given personality type is similar to an illness in a lot of ways. Yet oddly enough just about everyone has at least one MB type.
    • StevePerkins 4y ago
      Well, yes. The religious right embraces the doctrine of "original sin". The secular left focuses on the concept of "unconscious bias". It seems to be part of the human condition across all cultures and ideologies to view people as inherently flawed, and to see the path toward sanctification as being recognition and never ending struggle against those inherent flaws. Myers-Briggs is just the LinkedIn counterpart to this. Fodder for "Tell me about your strengths and weaknesses, and a situation in which you've had to overcome the latter" interview questions. You're supposed to don your hairshirt, beat your breast, and talk about your struggle for salvation in order to demonstrate piety to the interviewer.
• compiler-guy 4y ago
  I appreciate it when a company asks about or tests my Myers-Briggs type early in the hiring process, because then I know that I don't want to work for them, and they wouldn't be happy with me either. Win/win.
  • 1retep 4y ago
    Love this answer, I was thinking the same thing. I remember in college I applied to over 100 internships and my friend said “I don’t understand how you wrote over 100 cover letters.” My response was “I didn’t. If they ask for a cover letter I don’t want to work for them.”
    • Sunspark 4y ago
      I hate cover letters so much. They're utterly ridiculous.. imagine applying for a lawnmower technician position or something and needing a cover letter. You'd have to write how you're great because ever since you were little you would read lawnmower catalogs to bed.
    • chefandy 4y ago
      And if you believe you're best represented as a bullet list of educational and professional accomplishments, I assure you that the feeling is mutual.
      • eikenberry 4y ago
        Cover letters are one of those things that are only really useful for the first few jobs. Once you've started working you will get most of your future jobs via your network and cover letters are pointless from then on.
        • chefandy 4y ago
          If you're content to work within your network or and only care about the craft rather than the overall purpose of your company and tasks, then sure. Jobs your friends and colleagues get you don't require a cover letter.
• gmarx 4y ago
  The author says each of the big 5 is on a "sliding scale". I admit this is a bit pedantic, but isn't each just on a plain old scale? Wouldn't a sliding scale imply that one score could affect how another was graded?
  • xvedejas 4y ago
    I always thought "sliding scale" was a redundant phrase. If it does mean something beyond a continuous scale, then the author may be making the same mistake as me.
    • gmarx 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_scale_fees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_scale_fees I learned the term WRT insulin for diabetes. I think the key is that the scale you use for determining something (fees, insulin dose) changes depending on other characteristics of the person
  • thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Wouldn't a sliding scale imply that one score could affect how another was graded? Not to me; I am actually not familiar with any clear meaning for the phrase "sliding scale". It's just a thing people sometimes say. If you wanted to say that your score on one axis could affect how your answers to questions on another axis are interpreted, you'd need to call them something like "non-independent". Not much call for that kind of terminology. Can you provide any examples of someone using "sliding scale" in the sense you suggest?
    • gmarx 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_scale_fees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_scale_fees
• 4ad 4y ago
  The article makes the mistake assuming that companies are using these tests to maximize for performance, when in fact they are trying to maximize internal culture fit.
  • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    Where said internal culture is either "people who'll believe in fortune tellers if they're wearing lab coats" or "people so desperate for employment and/or validation they'll cast aside their values to fit in".
    • UncleEntity 4y ago
      People who study for the “correct” personality alongside the code quiz questions which all have very little to do with the actual job they will be doing. No right minded person would hire me for an “energetic, outgoing go-getter” job.
• nitwit005 4y ago
  This doesn't answer the "Why" in the headline "Why Companies Are So Interested in Your Myers-Briggs Type".
  • CharlesW 4y ago
    It's a bit buried, but the gist appears to be (italics mine): "And that’s it — there’s simply very little data on how well the Myers-Briggs (and other type-based personality tests) measures personality and even less on how it might predict job performance."
• brnt 4y ago
  In Europe I've never seen these tests as an entrance exam; just yesterday I watched Persona and was surprised that McDonalds of all companies seems to require such testing. What's the deal here? Companies are so desperate for any criterion to reduce the pile of applicants? Do they believe it helps? Do they look for a few of these profiles and never the others? Hiring is hard, I know, but I only know of these models in the context of understanding existing teams, not hiring for individual positions.
  • poulsbohemian 4y ago
    >What's the deal here? Companies are so desperate for any criterion to reduce the pile of applicants? Do they believe it helps? Do they look for a few of these profiles and never the others? Yes. They are looking for anything that lends credibility to their choices and that they believe objectively guides them toward the right candidates. Truth is, it's a total crapshoot but no one wants to acknowledge or believe that.
  • beachy 4y ago
    The dirty secret of recruitment software/processes is that recruiters are dealing with hundreds or thousands of resumes, the vast majority of which they will end up rejecting somewhere along the funnel, and they are eager for better ways. It's actually pretty draining and difficult doing multi-way comparisons between so many candidates, let alone doing it day after day. And recruiters/HR are only human. So any technology or approach that can attach a number/rank a job application is seen as hugely welcome. If Bob scored 56 out of 100, and Sue scored 87, then even if we have doubts about the methodology, surely we can still go ahead and reject Bob based on such a large difference! Then we don't need to spend a lot of time looking at Bob's resume, we can screen him out early on. The dirty secret is that it doesn't even matter that much whether the scoring process has any real science behind it - the mere fact of attaching a number is so desirable that employers are wide open and begging for this kind of capability. At the end of the day, who really cares if Alice was better that Bob or not? Virtually no companies have the HR performance monitoring in place to even know this anyway. That's why in the HR world, psych testing firms are not quite fly by night, but they are the kind of companies an entrepeneurial type can set up in a couple of weeks with very little tech but a lot of powerpoints, and immediately start selling to really big companies that will funnel a lot of money their way. Such companies normally make a big song and dance about the scientific verifiability of their technology/approach, even to the extent of having on-staff psychologists. Many people would feel though that the process has little more validity than reading tea leaves, or drawing up astrology charts.
• StevePerkins 4y ago
  Myers-Briggs is essentially horoscopes for people who spend too much time on LinkedIn.
  • slothtrop 4y ago
    The analysis is, but "types" are just preferences/tendencies that everyone has, reflected back from the test. It says "I tend towards introversion or not, being detail-oriented or not" etc. That's it. Mind you, that's of no use to your employer who wants you to do your damn job whatever it happens to be. If you want the job, it's for you.
    • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
      The types themselves are also nonsense. There's sixteen of them, and all sixteen have significant tendencies in all four axes. It seems extremely unlikely that someone would always have a tendency in every axis all the time, so the types themselves are set up wrong. They're not even acknowledging the possibility of an inconclusive result. It's also easy to see the financial incentive of removing the possibility for someone to get an "unremarkable" result. Telling people that they're mostly average, even if for a lot of people it's the truth, doesn't convince them they're getting their money's worth.
      • nicoburns 4y ago
        A couple of points: - The types do not indicate the degree of tendency in each axis. That can vary within a type and isn't captured by the type code at all. The types just indicate the direction. There is some evidence that children tend to have more extreme preferences which balance out people mature. - Have you seen Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow? The "fast" and "slow" thinking described there is very similar to what the MBTI calls "perception" (fast) and "judgement" (slow). And notably those categories do have strong evidence of an innate tendency which remains consistent over time (but only if you don't bias the participant by asking them to approach the task in certain way indicating that this tendency can be overridden by the appropriateness of certain thinking mode to the task at hand)
• thatjoeoverthr 4y ago
  It’s business horoscopes. My Myers-Briggs type is Pisces.
  • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    I would also have accepted "Golgari", "Hufflepuff" or "Lawful Evil".
    • CatWChainsaw 4y ago
      Nah, Simic is where it's at!
• drchopchop 4y ago
  My company gave managers Clifton Strengths tests, and it was fairly interesting (and tracked with my own self-introspection). Wasn't used for hiring or performance, but more as a tool to people recognize their traits and how others may differ. https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/253790/science-of-cliftonstrengths.aspx https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/253790/science-of...
  • IWillForgetThis 4y ago
    Same, it was surprisingly on point when I took it.
  • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    Does your self-introspection read something like this? " You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. Your sexual adjustment has presented problems for you. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic. Security is one of your major goals in life. "
  • tyingq 4y ago
    It's saddled with a lot of the same issues as MBTI. Low repeatability, dubious extrapolations of what it might mean if you have one of those strengths, etc. If they treated it like an exercise to make people talk to each other about styles of communication, I wouldn't hate it as bad. They usually treat it like something conclusive, science based, etc. Meaning it might drive what assignments you get, training, etc. That's...dumb.
• PaulKeeble 4y ago
  The thing that has always amused me about the personality types is that everyone is all of these things and how much they are of one or the other depends on the circumstances. You can change the questions very slightly and get wildly different results. While interesting in a way to understand human interactions and some form of classification of that they aren't usually something fixed, they don't really measure personality because its a whole lot more complex than these measures. Most people still believe that your peak heart rate is 220 - age when the paper that determined this showed no one actually met that at all and the variance was massive, the same is true of Myers Briggs we are a long way away from the original science with the use of these tests and since no one reads the papers they don't realise how badly its being applied.
• YetAnotherNick 4y ago
  > there’s simply very little data on how well the Myers-Briggs (and other type-based personality tests) measures personality and even less on how it might predict job performance. Any personality test is bad in my opinion and I wouldn't like being tested in it but this statement and article feels like feel good pseudoscience. Is there any data on any kind of test that it works? At least for Myers-Briggs it has been tested and it hasn't been proved or disproved.
• rasz 4y ago
  Im sure there are tutorials on the net on how to pass for particular desired type. As anything, once you measure something it becomes the goal.
• LordGrey 4y ago
  Apple went through the Myers-Briggs phase in the 90's, along with a lot of the other tech giants. It was a half-day seminar. "Professionals" gave the tests and told everyone their type. That took only an hour. The rest of the time was spent doing role-playing, where you were supposed to use your coworkers' MB types to adjust your interaction with them in various settings. It was a waste of time then and I bet it still is.
  • anonymousiam 4y ago
    I never worked for Apple, but I went through a similar exercise in the late 1980's. I found the role-playing useful, and I found the techniques we were trained on to be enlightening. Not everybody thinks the same way, and even though it's not valid to categorize people into 16 personality groups, it's useful to understand that people prioritize things and think differently from each other. Here's a great example of that: https://generallythinking.com/richard-feynman-on-thinking-processes-did-he-know-nothing-about-psychology-v/ https://generallythinking.com/richard-feynman-on-thinking-pr...
    • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
      Do you need to spend $2000 plus $49.99 a head plus travel, catering and room hire to be told "It's useful to understand that people priorities things and think differently from each other?" If the specifics don't matter, what are you actually paying these consultants to do?
      • addaon 4y ago
        Is it worth $2k (or $20k) to communicate to a bunch of new managers that "we, as a company, feel that thinking about how your team of individuals thinks is worth spending money and time on"? The specifics aren't the point -- the demonstration that this is a priority, and part of your job that you're expected to spend time on, is the key. An e-mail saying "hey you're a manager now think about people!" doesn't have the same impact, inherently, and you end up with "managers" that think their job is still to be a tech lead.
• biomcgary 4y ago
  When I was managing, I informally typed people during the interview process, which was very helpful in predicting both how they would interact with other team members and how they would do at particular tasks. However, I learned not to rely on self-reported personality types or tests, which are often answered aspirationally, not realistically. To me, MBTI or Big 5 (not the actual tests, but their framing of aspects of personality) are mental tool kits for trying to make better predictions from limited data (i.e., the interview process). As a manager, I've found them incredibly helpful for avoiding problems (i.e., assigning the wrong task to a person). Interestingly, in my personal experience, I've found logicians (ISTJs in MTBI) seem to be the most resistant to quantifying aspects of personality.
  • Waterluvian 4y ago
    Better yet, you should scan the shape of each candidate’s skull and use that as a metric to aid in decisionmaking.
    • biomcgary 4y ago
      A stethoscope in the hands of a doctor is a useful, if limited, tool. Don't judge its value if you have never seen one except in the hands of the village idiot. (One could say the same about various programming languages.) If measuring skull shape during the interview process was a) socially acceptable and b) actually predictive of outcomes, why not? The problem is that it is neither. The reason that it is not a) is because it was not b) and thus easily misused to justify stereotypes.
      • Waterluvian 4y ago
        A galvanometer in a physician’s hand is even more dangerous than that of the village idiot. Just ask my late grandmother who was preyed on until the board de-certified that “doctor.”
      • YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
        Are you asserting that MBTI is either of those things?
• airocker 4y ago
  Helen Fischer's work on personality types may hold some value that various hormones cause personality traits. Myers Briggs imho is just messed up thing no better than horoscopes. It used to be used at a large company that I worked for. The preferred types were RED and BLUE around 2010. GREEN AND YELLOW I remember were overlooked for promotions. Everyone was trying to be the biggest idiot in the room to prove they were RED person. It propogated bullying and prevented good teamwork. Credit Stealing was legitimized with preference for RED. If Helen Fischer is correct and RED people are the closest to testesterone heavy people, the RED people have the shortest neural circuits.
• IWillForgetThis 4y ago
  I was asked to take the StrengthsFinder test (imo kind of similar to Myers-Briggs) after being hired on at my current employer. The results basically said my strengths are ADHD, but in a really positive way. Nobody ever followed up with me on it or mentioned it again. Honestly it was pretty accurate. The job is extremely laid back, no hard deadlines, no emergencies, etc. It's been a huge challenge to maintain a similar level of output when compared to past jobs.
  • Karunamon 4y ago
    This sounds so similar to my experience at a prior employer that I have to hazard a guess. Does this company, by chance, have (or had at least, prior to the pandemic) an elaborate on boarding ceremony?
    • IWillForgetThis 4y ago
      Haha no, almost no onboarding. They did have the longest hiring process I've ever seen. Something like 3 months from first interview to offer letter.
• savryn 4y ago
  It's funny how defensive hn and other parts of the internet are about being put in made-up 'no-evidence' /psuedoscience boxes.... yet everyone here completely understands the dozens of archetypes and human personality portraits invoked by hundreds of ever changing memes and meme-speak... "don't be that guy" "tell me youre x without telling me ..." ms-paint wojacks, etc I think people who's pattern recognition works great on classifying others in the private (read:petty) freedom of their own mind are also the exact brittle, neurotically vulnerable hypocrites bristling about other's pattern recognition seeing them... (I'm all the latter but embrace it lol) The same crowd that loves quantified self and concrete "evidence" would hate to be seen as they are by actual tally of what they do and how their time is spent, or especially to have their most common interpersonal reactions categorized into a dozen buckets, of gut-reactions, core values, status stuff, etc. Any whiff that someone has figured you out and hark, all of a sudden you contain multitudes! Meanwhile, developing advertising software to build ever more accurate portraits of consumer types... MBTI is as useful as you make it, as are harry potter groups, memes, vibes, DSM-mental illness groups, shakespeare's tragedies, etc. They work great if you put them to work, shrug. It's just a word-substrate to better deal with the intuitions you already have going on about people subconsciously. meh, I guess I'd just much rather know exactly what stereotypes / impressions I invoke in others with my looks/identity markers (age sex race etc), behaviors, class mannerisms, aesthetics, posture etc.... and then take it from there if I don't like what I see in the mirror. (seeing people seeing us is always a mirror i think)
  • Xcelerate 4y ago
    Myers-Briggs provides 4 bits of information. If Myers-Briggs was astrology, then it should not be possible to build a classifier that could predict the results of a Myers-Briggs test based upon attributes of a person that are not self-reported. I highly doubt this is the case. And though you could argue that self-selection is involved, at the tech company I work at, a large informal poll revealed ~70% of engineers to be INTJ and ~20% INTP. Whether people like it or not, MBTI is at least predictive of something. Whether that something is useful for some other purpose is a different debate, but the types are certainly not uniformly randomly distributed.
• mdcds 4y ago
  Myers-Briggs and Big 5 aren't the same thing. Knowing my MB category was amusing but not useful. Knowing my Big 5 percentiles - very useful. Understanding where I land on disagreeableness and openness to ideas made my life a lot easier (both at home and work). At least because I have a framework to understand personality differences when dealing with teammates and what frustrates me (like people being close-minded or indecisive, or both). My current company doesn't do it, but I would support mixing and matching people with complementary strengths. Like match someone with high openness to ideas to explore various angles on a particular problem and someone with high conscientiousness to get the project across the finish line.
  • themodelplumber 4y ago
    That's funny. One of the biggest complaints about Big 5 is that it's too wishy-washy and doesn't have much to offer behind the scenes in soft theory. For example the "generally people flip all their letters at the end of the work day" principle with four-letter type, or the way you can extract cognitive functionality from the four letters to explore potential cognitive gifts and blind spots. I've arranged groups like you stated and found some interesting takeaways. Like one of the partners can perceive an annoyance with the work requirement and they become an effective interference machine team rather than a results-team. It's tricky because they are never really working in isolation and one partner will also be looking for outside opportunities and so on. There is some interesting theory on this, which expresses that not only do some kinds of people work effectively together really well, but when they are also matched with the right project or field, they will carry the project out in a way that exceeds normal expectations. By definition they have more energy to spend and it replenishes quickly.
    • mdcds 4y ago
      I can share personal experiences. My MB letters tentatively are INTJ. I say tentatively because I took a couple of free online tests. Those might not be very accurate. Knowing those letters never aided me in anything. The only interesting that has come out of it is that I discovered a weird subculture of people who wish their MB letter were exactly those. Some kind of a weird obsession. Big 5 - I took Jordan Peterson's paid test. Discovering that I was more disagreeable and more open to ideas than roughly 90% of population was helpful with self awareness and managing expectations when dealing with others. For example, I don't expect most of my colleagues to be as critical of the company leadership or company policies as I am. And I fully expect some of my colleagues to shut down my ideas for deviating too much from existing patterns.
• nicoburns 4y ago
  Supposing these tests have any validity, using them for hiring is a terrible idea. People are likely to be very reluctant to hire people who they know they are likely to clash with. But in reality that's what you actually need to provide the variety of perspectives (one might call it diversity) necessary for resilient decision making.
• CobrastanJorji 4y ago
  The article title: "Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types" The article's answer: "We just don’t know." Whole bunch of words in that article and some interesting background, but zero effort to address the title of the piece. It's like they meant to be going somewhere, provided some interesting background information, and then just stopped. No hypotheses, no interviewing a company to ask them why, just a shrug. If you wanted to say "Companies shouldn't use Myers-Briggs," you should have made that the title.
• __derek__ 4y ago
  A previous company used Real Colors, an MBTI knock-off, and it was striking how attached people got to those results. People openly stereotyped whole groups of people because they appeared to cluster in one sector (e.g., SDEs must be Green). They disregarded all counter-examples because they conflicted with these biases. It was weird.
  • themodelplumber 4y ago
    Do you mean True Colors? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Colors_(personality) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Colors_(personality) My impression from some brief training was that it's based on temperament theory and not a knock off of MBTI.
    • __derek__ 4y ago
      > Do you mean True Colors? No.[1] > My impression from some brief training was that it's based on temperament theory and not a knock off of MBTI. From your link: > According to this personality temperament theory, which is a refined version of the popular Myers–Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) [...] To-may-to, to-mah-to. [1]: https://realcolors.org/ https://realcolors.org/
      • themodelplumber 4y ago
        Ah, that's interesting. I checked out their history page. https://realcolors.org/what_is_realcolors/history/ https://realcolors.org/what_is_realcolors/history/ Anytime they start by rewinding to millennia ago, that's temperament theory. Keirsey's temperament theory that they mention is fundamentally different from typical MBTI in lots of ways. In fact they can both be used to complement each other. So it's different, or not, depending on whether you want to be accurate, and true to details, or not. (Also someone should correct the way the Wikipedia article is written regarding MBTI)
        • A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
          Thank you for sharing this. That is so weird. Having been part of an MBA program meant that my profile was reviewed through multiple similar tests, but I have not heard of that one. The thing that jumped at me is that it is not some small companies that are using these. US Banks apparently used it with its private capital customers[1] ( I am almost curious as to how it was applied ). [1]https://realcolors.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/11/US-Bank-Knowing-Real-Colors.pdf https://realcolors.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/11/US...
• richwater 4y ago
  A lot of people who don't contribute to productivity care about Myers Briggs*
• ncmncm 4y ago
  People are always imagining they have "debunked" Myers-Briggs. All they demonstrate is that they didn't understand what it's for. What it's good for is to help you understand how people who think differently than you do are often not wrong. Other people are super great at things you can't hardly do at all, for reasons. Putting people good at X doing Y instead is a formula for dissatisfaction for those putting and those put. People naturally try to sort themselves into work that they are good at, where how they think works best. Great actors, pilots, artists, surgeons, musicians and engineers would mostly do one another's jobs very, very badly. That is not to say there aren't hucksters peddling it for what it is useless for, but that is on the hucksters and their pigeons.
  • 121789 4y ago
    it's a non-predictive meaningless classification that varies in time and has significant error bars. it is a horoscope applied by poorly trained, biased corporate managers. the only people that find it seemingly useful are inexperienced or incompetent managers
    • ncmncm 4y ago
      In other words, you don't understand it either. That is not surprising: you would need to learn something. That would involve work, so is understandably unpopular.
      • bitmunk 4y ago
        Saying "You just don't get it" isn't really an argument. The only times I've seen Myers-Briggs used are either as harmless entertainment ("Look at this meme. I'm such a INFP, tee hee.") or in Brazil-esque corporate settings where it could actually affect your employment ("Sorry, we were hoping for a XSTX person"). Sure, my experience is purely anecdotal much like most people here, but you could've shown us a counterexample, instead of wasting time implying that another user is a lazy moron. You mention that hucksters peddle it for things that it's isn't useful for, but in what context is it useful? The realization that people have different ways of thinking, abilities and interest, which in turn means they are good at different kinds of work isn't the invention of the MBTI. Why does a 4-axis test help with this? Why should people take it seriously, especially considering it's highly commercialized?
• vlod 4y ago
  Interestingly, the CIA spy that Lex Fridman had on [0] his podcast said that all the spy agencies use MBTI and that he (interviewee) thinks they are of value. [0] https://youtu.be/T3FC7qIAGZk?t=6127 https://youtu.be/T3FC7qIAGZk?t=6127
  • greedo 4y ago
    The list of technologies the CIA has evaluated since it's inception is long and full of quackery.
    • colejohnson66 4y ago
      Without commenting on Meyers-Briggs, the CIA/FBI still use polygraphs during their interviews despite widespread acceptance that it’s useless.
      • etempleton 4y ago
        It is an interrogation technique—nothing more. If you get stressed about lying as most people do you will probably get more stressed during a polygraph and your physical response will be measurable. This allows them to pressure you into admitting something you rather not admit. If you are a sociopath or practiced you will probably do just fine. In fact, my pet theory is that some of our problems with policing in the US are a direct result of hiring practices such as the use of personality tests and the polygraph. I suspect you may inadvertently pass people who are experienced liars at a far greater than normal rate under normal interviewing practices.
      • sarchertech 4y ago
        Polygraphs can be a useful interrogation tool if the person being interrogated believes they are a magic lie detecting machine.
        • stephen_g 4y ago
          But the problem is that (as far as I'm aware) most of the people running these tests also believe that polygraphs are magic lie detecting machines. So you get false negatives of people failing even though they're not being deceptive, while people who know what's up can lie and breeze past...
• yboris 4y ago
  An excellent article about how flawed this is: The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator: A popular but flawed way of understanding your personality https://80000hours.org/2012/07/the-myers-briggs-type-indicator-a-popular-but-flawed-way-of-understanding-your-personality/ https://80000hours.org/2012/07/the-myers-briggs-type-indicat...
• naniwaduni 4y ago
  MBTI pretty much takes what are supposed to be basically unimodal binomial distributions and ... slices them and labels the halves different things. Even without getting into whether it's testing something sensible, it's pretty clear that the typology is fundamentally fucked.
  • themodelplumber 4y ago
    This critique of typology applies to the way humans think about so many things though. Imagine a world in which we broke free of the unreasonable typology of the traffic light! Really, typologies are super helpful for solving lots of problems. And a nice thing about MBTI in the comparing-humans world is that it's way more objective _and_ uses more than one dichotomy unlike lots of other default typologies (cf men-women, especially when MBTI was first developed) _and_ can also resolve down into things like cognitive processes, which provide even more leverage and depth. Not that MBTI is everything, but it's damn impressive for where it came from. And, it usually works better to criticize specific typologies using qualitative means than quantitative, just IMO.
    • naniwaduni 4y ago
      > Really, typologies are super helpful for solving lots of problems. Sure, most of which involve multimodal distributions?
      • themodelplumber 4y ago
        "Most" is an assumption. And typology like MBTI is going to be intractable to distribution-thinking. After all, the instrument itself comes from soft theory. The same soft theory now explains why e.g. distributions are not a good lens by themselves. This is why Big 5 often gets dragged on by people who like MBTI better: It's not really qualitatively interesting to try to work in depth with such a broad and shallow tool. People can also try both and judge for themselves or just defray judgement and use both.
• immigrantheart 4y ago
  They want obedient employees. Make sense.
• russfink 4y ago
  The article fails to answer the question in its title: why?
• swader999 4y ago
  My wife was forced into a Myers Briggs exercise a while back. I learned some new cuss words.
• swader999 4y ago
  Just ask what animal you'd most like to be and why. It's as useful as MB. There, I saved your company thousands. You're welcome.
  • quercusa 4y ago
    Had a consultant come in and do the animal bit on what was essentially a non-profit board. It was a complete and total disaster.
    • swader999 4y ago
      Don't discount the team building aspects of a shared subject of scorn.
• Karupan 4y ago
  One of the companies I worked for had a similar personality test during on-boarding. The reasoning was it will be used to match up team members to get the "right balance". Of course it was never used or spoken of again, so maybe the best outcome in the end.
• greedo 4y ago
  When I was a wee sysadmin, still wet behind the ears, I interviewed with a Midwest company for a networking gig. The first step in the interview process was a group phone session (roughly 6 people from this company). They ask you a series of questions, over a 30 minute span. It was pretty fast paced, and there was no time for much reflection on an individual question. I thought it was odd, but I expected a job offer. The next day I received a call from either the recruiter or the interviewer (it's been decades and my memory isn't exact). They thanked me for my time but said they didn't feel I was a good candidate. I thought long and hard about it for a few days, feeling down and depressed. Then I realized that not one question was technical. It was a typical psychometric exam. Did some research and found that the company specialized in predictive evaluations. Imagine Gattaca... I was pissed. The idea that you can distill someone's performance down to 30 questions asked by faceless people giving limited feedback is HR homeopathy. I was glad that I had dodged a bullet, but treating people like "resources" is something I despise. This company claims to have lots of Fortune 500 companies as clients, now offers unlimited PTO (another red flag) and a pretty website espousing the virtues of their filtering system. Looks like a cult, smells like a cult.
• seadan83 4y ago
  I'm very skeptical of any information in this article. AFAIK Google never asked the "how many golfballs.." question or similar. To my knowledge, Microsoft notoriously were the ones that asked that kind of question and then stopped asking that perhaps 10 years ago or more. AFAIK if Google ever did ask such a question, it was even before then. Further, I've done the interview process with Google and they do not ask anything about personality types. All the information in this article about at least Google does not seem accurate. Overall, kinda seems like click-bait without even establishing how many companies actually do ask about personality.
  • sedatk 4y ago
    Yeah, Microsoft started to actively discourage such questions in interviews circa 2005.
  • neilk 4y ago
    They put Google in the lead paragraph just to hook people's attention. I don't think Google has ever done MBTI or any other standardized personality test. However, around 2005, I knew of interns who were interviewing for permanent roles and they got brainteaser questions. One of them was something about the expected payoff of bets about removing socks of various colors from a drawer. Another was a variation on the "missionaries and cannibals" problem. One of the interns failed, despite having delivered lots of value over their tenure there. I and the dev lead were pissed. Good times.
• snapdaddy 4y ago
  I feel like I am the odd one out in that I don't hate MBTI. I would not use them as a measurement of performance or individual worth, but I do think they might have some value as a team-building exercise. Imagine everyone on a team does a (free, found online, not 'legitimate') test and then spends an hour or two discussing the results. Everyone learns that the developers are not very agreeable (joking! Lighten up!) and that the sales people are extroverted and that we're all quite different but we can all work together to achieve a common goal, or whatever. I think it's fine so long as you don't claim it it science and that you don't get caught up in it. And it's better than going on a ropes course . . .
  • smegsicle 4y ago
    a lot of people seem to feel superior by calling them horoscopes- similar to how some people will confidently tell you that the polygraph is completely useless and not a measurement of anything, just because it's not a magically perfect lie-detector device that should be used in courtrooms
    • stephen_g 4y ago
      What are you trying to say about the polygraph? Polygraphs are definitely and absolutely a net negative in any situation if the person operating it believes they work, because you get honest people failing them because the operator thinks they're "hiding something" from the basically meaningless output. As far as I'm aware, a lot of the people working with these machines fall into this category. I guess on the other hand, if the operator did fully know it's complete pseudoscience, then it might be sometimes useful, because it could then function as a useful interrogation prop as long as the person being interrogated beleives it works.
  • EvenThisAcronym 4y ago
    I think the cognitive function model is fine and useful, which is why Dr. John Beebe's model is so appealing. My main issue with Meyers-Briggs is the use of a questionnaire to type people - I'm an ESFP, but every time I've taken an MBTI test I've gotten back INTJ or ISTP. I never felt that either of those were completely accurate, or that I was an introvert. It's far, far more accurate to type people based on their preferred styles of interaction and thinking (e.g., as an ESFP I have an informative, initiating, movement-based interaction style and I think in concrete, pragmatic, interest-based terms).
• Krisjohn 4y ago
  > " It’s too early to say that the test is “meaningless,” “totally meaningless,” or “a fad.”" No, it's not.
• dredmorbius 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke
• imglorp 4y ago
  I interviewed for a decent sounding software architecture position, where the CTO interview went very well. They moved me on to a Big Five personality test, which I failed somehow, and they wouldn't tell me the results or the criteria. End of the process. Bullet dodged? Does anyone know what kind of pass/fail filter would be used here?
  • etempleton 4y ago
    Depends on the test. I wouldn’t sweat it. These tests have little correlation to job success. Why anyone considers them at all is beyond me.
  • Aeolun 4y ago
    Bullet dodged for certain, but I have a hard time understanding why they’d ever make that a pass/fail kind of thing. Maybe the CEO had a bad experience with someone claiming to be a ASSH?
  • Sunspark 4y ago
    Why don't you find the test and do it again to see if what it says makes sense to you?
• brandonmenc 4y ago
  If Myers-Briggs is useful for anything, it's to help you avoid anyone who takes great pride in being an INTJ.
• wikitopian 4y ago
  Hopefully we INTJs will soon be able to apply for disability on account of being too arrogant and boorish to work with other people.
  • senttoschool 4y ago
    Every dev ops developer I know is an INTJ. They're usually the biggest assholes in the company - though necessary assholes in order to protect the service from going down. I would 100% hire an INTJ for dev ops.
    • JohnFen 4y ago
      > Every dev ops developer I know is an INTJ. How do you know this?
• jwilliams 4y ago
  Despite some important criticism, I think this article misses an important factor. The benefit with the MBTI is showing employees that people think differently from them. Yes, we all know that, but we still need prompting and practice on it. It's best as an exercise to highlight "I need to consider this person's perspective and take that into account". Flexing that muscle is incredibly useful, even if it's a somewhat arbitrary exercise in itself. However, I think approaches such as "User Manuals" do that better.
  • tartoran 4y ago
    Yes, awareness that differences amongst us exist matters, especially when coupled in the right way can make things flow smoother, better teams and such - especially when we don’t ensemble organically but by chance of where we land. Even if MBTI is not science, just dwelling a bit on the different types of personalities or modes of functioning helps in appreciating most if not all team members. For a while I was not advertising my introversion, I was perhaps trying to mask it (which is taxing to be honest) changed over time , especially when more conversation about it ensued in part due to MBTI. It may be junk science but helps start up needed conversations about our differences.
• tibbon 4y ago
  I’ve always been an ENFP. I also find MB to be nearly useless in life. In fact all personality systems have seemed of limited use, until I was shown the Enneagram. It has helped me think not about my strengths, but my weaknesses. It has been useful for understanding how I relate to others as well; and have better sympathy for their struggles
• bobbytherobot 4y ago
  In my personal experience, companies turn to these tools when there are organizational problems because it places the burden on the individuals instead of the system. Who has a large influence on the system, those at the top.
• sacrosancty 4y ago
  What always seemed an obvious problem with Myers-Briggs is that there's no way to be "normal". Somebody who's at the mean of all 4 axes is going to get a random score and look just the same as someone who's extreme in some way. Surely many or even most people are going to be close enough to the mean on some axes that error in the test can't place them on the correct side.
• ericmcer 4y ago
  I have noticed that people who get excited about Meyers-Briggs are very… employable? They usually are the same ones who chug whatever kool aid is being served.
  • batiudrami 4y ago
    You could probably say the same about people who are excited about horoscopes.
• rpmisms 4y ago
  Myers-Briggs can be useful. It's not some magic ball, but I'm an ENTP, which means I need to keep it fresh; I can't just chug away at one task for hours and maintain good output, I need to switch over to something else before I get fatigued, and then switch back. I'm glad I know this about myself, otherwise I'd feel terrible about my "lack of focus". I'll add to this that Enneagrams are useful for understanding my emotional approach to things. I'm an Enneagram 8, which is a more combative, take-the-bull-by-the-horns type of personality. This can be offputting, so I consciously tone it down when meeting new people.
• eshack94 4y ago
  Myers-Briggs is one step above astrology signs IMO. Pretty much a crock of horse shit.
• EvenThisAcronym 4y ago
  Meyers-Briggs is absolute trash and should not be used by companies for anything. Big 5 is also almost completely worthless beyond vaguely describing a person's general tendencies. The only system that seems to have any sort of validity and real-world use is Dr. John Beebe's Eight-Function Model.
• NalNezumi 4y ago
  It's horrifying that some comments are seriously arguing for the benefit of Myers Briggs here. It's a cold reminder that HN is not a rational place as a lot of us like to think; there's believers here that believe in psychology equivalent of flat earth, and can read about "confirmation bias" but not see it in themselves even after clearly writing it down for us! A friendly reminder of the beating this dead horse that is Myers Briggs have had almost a decade ago by Adam Grant https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog... Edit: non amp link (thanks smingo) https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309...
  • smingo 4y ago
    Link without Google amp: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/give-and-take/201309...
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • lliamander 4y ago
    > there's believers here that believe in psychology equivalent of flat earth That is clearly hyperbole, as is the equivocation with horoscopes mentioned in the article you linked. In both instances, the argument is hurting your case. Look, I agree that the big 5 is superior. But the MBTI traits are clearly rough first approximations of traits discovered by more rigorous science - not just pure superstition.
  • cttet 4y ago
    Just for this argument: "Research shows that as many as 75 percent of personality test-takers receive a different result when tested again." There is an easy counter: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248 The other two still holds for me though. But Big Five is not any better IMHO, it can be a trait for psychological health, but definitely not for personality.
• hooby 4y ago
  I kinda hate it, when an article is titled "Why companies are interested in...", and then goes on at length to explain what "..." actually is, and how it compares to something else, and how it's used by companies. And then just ends, never even touching the "why" question at all.
• wawjgreen 4y ago
  problems with MBT: 1- it contradicts the multiple-selves theory (which is based on science and backed by personal experience and observation.). You have your "good" self, your "private" self, your "evil" self, your "social" self, etc. 2- the human personality is subject to many variables to behave consistently across any given length of time (Bandura's formula). Same settings with a different music background and level of blood in our sugars might produce different outcomes. 3- the illusion of appearances: a person might appear as x but actually be y. I appear an extrovert but I am deeply introverted; it is not my fault that the people around me can't see it. 4- people are trainable. any set of traits and personality adjustments can be taught and trained under rigorous conditions. I became a dog person in 2021 even though for 30+ years my hair would stand on my back when the cutest puppy would appear in my social radius. Now I actively seek the most badass dogs others walk outside and pet them. 5- deep prejudicial and otherwise core personality traits are set in childhood, in the "parent ego state" and are not easy to remove or deprogram. These core traits stem from the millions of situations and interplay of various variables in childhood. labeling them into five neat categories is like classifying the plant world into five "basic" types of plants (which is totally unscientific) and naive.
• Fred27 4y ago
  If I'm interviewing for a job and they ask me to do one of these tests I just say "no thanks". Any company that puts this sort of HR astrology above technical ability is not for me.
• eschneider 4y ago
  Remember, you can study for a personality test just like any other test. Figure out what result you want and answer that way. Also, asking for a personality test tells you a lot about a company. Do what you will with that info.
• mysterydip 4y ago
  Personally I found enneagram types to be much more useful in both classifying a personality and understanding how to relate to them better. When my wife and I took it, the lightbulb finally went off on why there were certain conflicts. We both approached the same situation from different perspectives and motives, and our responses made logical sense with that context.
• naruvimama 4y ago