7 ms·
Don't Pay UK
- echelon 4y agoThis is looks incredibly suspicious. Who was it founded by? "A group of friends", the website says. Really high production values for that. I wouldn't be shocked if this was well funded. Edit: did some digging. They have a Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Pay_UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Pay_UK There's lots of press, too: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/10/dont-pay-uk-campaign-will-cause-households-sorts-problems-warns/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/10/dont-pay-uk-camp... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/09/tuesday-briefing-how-dont-pay-uk-is-channelling-anger-into-action-while-the-fbi-raids-trump-mansion https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/09/tuesday-briefi...
- senectus1 4y agodon't discount it. its how Brexit and Maga took off. People can be powerful tools
- rblatz 4y agoBoth suspected to be sophisticated Russian backed propaganda. Who benefits from this energy protest? What’s the fastest solution to fix the energy cost issue?
- stunpix 4y agoMeantime russia’s state outlets last weeks are pushing narratives “eu is gonna to freeze and stink this winter” [1]. Also in russian social networks appeared a short reel allegedly filmed by Gasprom with a song “the winter will be long” [2] showing a winter landscapes interleaving with EU flags. All those narratives are focusing to show: this as an our answer on sanctions from EU so we are going to punish EU by turning off a gas pipe. Personally I see all that as a big campaign of propaganda. Russia is abusing democracy mechanisms to achieve own benefits. [1]: https://ria.ru/20220831/gaz-1813467401.html https://ria.ru/20220831/gaz-1813467401.html [2]: https://tjournal.ru/internet/734585-v-seti-zavirusilos-video-yakoby-gazproma-ob-otklyuchenii-gaza-v-evrope-rol-zamerzshego-goroda-sygral-krasnoyarsk https://tjournal.ru/internet/734585-v-seti-zavirusilos-video...
- luciusdomitius 4y agoNon-payment is not that straight-forward, but is still a very powerful tool: 1. You cannot serve the remaining 50-60% of customers at the same cost, leading to cascading shut-offs 2. Electricity can also be stolen in many ways and this is exactly what happens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolipinovo#Utilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolipinovo#Utilities
- testmasterflex 4y agoHope this movement spreads to the rest of Europe. Politicians needs to understand that nuclear needs to come back yesterday.
- anovikov 4y agoHow do they plan to achieve that? Simply have the state fork the bill and fund it through taxes? Sure energy costs will be high for the next few years, that's the reality. Nothing anyone could do about it. And no, nuclear is not the answer: even if we take nations where permissioning and red tape is not a problem at all (Russia), nuclear takes a LONG LONG LONG time. Belarusian nuclear plant was being built for 14 years now and still only one of the reactors is operating. So it's about 15 years lead time. In 15 years, energy issues will be solved with renewables, before nuclear will kick in.
- luciusdomitius 4y agoWell, it is entirely the state's fault - it wasn't me who cut off the only reasonably priced supplier who can provide enough supply in the name of some retarded ideology...
- anovikov 4y agoYou mean Russia? There is no way anyone in the free world will ever depend on it for anything, even if it means civil war or mass dieoff. Russia has to be suppressed or at least isolated from the West to the point it can be ignored. Secondly, UK never did. It never imported any considerable amounts of energy from Russia. What happens in UK now is consequence of lack of storage facilities "optimised" away by privatisation, combined with skyrocketing world prices because of Putin switching off gas (and no it wasn't done through sanctions, it was a one-sided Russian decision). What could the West do? Just allow occupation of Ukraine doing nothing? And in any case, UK could not do anything. It's not even a member of EU anymore to veto any sanctions if it wanted to. It just happened to UK, an indirect effect.
- luciusdomitius 4y agoWell, when your military is a joke after 30 years of underinvestment, this is what you do - watch by and squeak your teeth angrily. On top of that the will of actual Europeans regarding Ukraine is completely different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_Association_Agreement_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Dutch_Ukraine%E2%80%93Eur.... I forgot that in the "free" world, democracy and referendums don't really mean anything.
- King-Aaron 4y agoEnergy company: "Ok!" turns off service
- luciusdomitius 4y ago1. You cannot do that without bumping the price for the few remaining customers. 2. In some EU countries you would have problems with human rights legislation.
- simondotau 4y ago1. You can if you make the reasonable prediction that the overwhelming majority of protesters won’t (or can’t) stick to their pledge in the face of actual service shut-off.
- xlii 4y ago...and even if they did, most likely it'll be so fragmented that it won't have an impact. UK has population of around 67 million. 180k of pledges right now doesn't even make it 0.025%. It's probably not enough to turn off energy in one apartment per apartment building.
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y agoNope that's not how it works. Unfortunately in North America we are so brainwashed that we forget that mass protests really work.
- xyst 4y agoYet another reminder of American Exceptionalism
- happymellon 4y agoMaybe not cut off, but it's how you end up on a pre-pay meter rather than monthly billing. There are ways around this for the energy companies.
- 4y ago
- bruce511 4y agoso I get that energy prices are high, and I get that this has a cascading effect on, well, everything. I'm not really sure though that energy prices can be controlled by govts. (the comparison with the Poll Tax is somewhat irrelevant because the poll tax was 100% dreamed up by the govt, and was a new tax out of fresh air). Energy is however a commodity, and prices are set internationally either by private companies, or other govts (eg Russia). Yes there are taxes on energy, but that's just taxes, if they don't get the money there, they'll get it somewhere else. So given that the underlying price is set by extra-govt entities, who have plenty of customers elsewhere, I'm not sure that most govts have control over energy they would like. A better long-term solution is to a) Foster the use of less energy overall, better house insulation, electric cars etc and b) grow home-produced energy (wind etc.) if those reduce dependancies on oil and gas then that's likely a nice byproduct. Of course these won't change by Oct 1. So yeah, I get people are hurting, I'm just not sure there's a lot a single nation (which imports energy) can do much about it.
- ErrantX 4y agoI think that it's not true that govt are not a big influence on energy pricing. For example; UK energy costs are currently higher than EU because the govt decommissioned most of our long term gas storage meaning our usage is tied to the current price (hence we've had price shock a lot quicker than the EU). Also government's control the system of marginal pricing which generally was a good system for fair pricing - but with gas costs rocketing is skewing energy costs unduly.
- bruce511 4y agoOf course policy and long range planning can greatly affect real energy costs. This can be done on the govt level, or on occasion on the individual level (investing in houses, transport etc that improve energy efficiency.) But a "rent boycott" is typically a short-term even chasing a specific short term outcome. Yes old policies have an effect here, yes new policies will help in the future, but it's not clear what action the host article is trying to accomplish.
- dmitri1981 4y ago
- TekMol 4y agoRather than destructive action ("Do as we wish or we will hurt you!") I prefer productive action. If one million people came together to put solar panels on roofs - that would be cool! We could have a giant forum where we plan on helping each other by raising funds, sourcing the materials, negotiating with landlords, hiring contractors ... If something is really important to you, how much would you donate? $10? $100? $1000? Imagine every one of the one million people this campaign aims for would donate $100. We could put solar on roofs for $100000000. Solar panels that will reduce the need to buy from the energy companies for decades.
- bakugo 4y ago>If one million people came together to put solar panels on roofs That sounds cool. Are you going to pay for those millions of solar panels? If so, sign me up.
- luciusdomitius 4y ago
- alfiedotwtf 4y agoAustralia did pay, and we now have one of the highest uptakes on residential solar. ... too bad utility companies then reduced the feed-in credits to zilch to make up for lost margins.
- tatoalo 4y ago> If one million people came together to put solar panels on roofs - that would be cool! That would be “cool” and actually great. The problem is that people who cannot get through the month because the bills have skyrocketed, cannot afford the upfront price of installing solar panels. So unless there’s government intervention, I don’t really think this would be feasible.
- TekMol 4y agoThey cannot get through the month, but they have time to start a fight with the legal system by withholinding their due payments and then deal with whatever trouble comes from it?
- sleepyxuras91 4y agoHow to get a CCJ against your name 101.
- Sakos 4y agoCCJ: "You may get a county court judgment (CCJ) or high court judgment if someone takes court action against you (saying you owe them money) and you do not respond." https://www.gov.uk/county-court-judgments-ccj-for-debt https://www.gov.uk/county-court-judgments-ccj-for-debt
- smsm42 4y agoIn Canada, they'd probably just freeze (hah!) your bank account and take the payment from there.
- 4pkjai 4y agoCounty court judgement for anyone wondering
- throwaway67743 4y agoIn which case they'll likely get an attachment of earnings order and take the owed straight from anyone not paying anyway, silly muggles.
- throwaway102233 4y agoIt's sad that Europeans have to suffer under stupid leadership choices made by their leaders.
- 88840-8855 4y ago
- strzzz 4y ago8 in 10 europeans agree on european leadership in current situation agains rashist ruzzia according to the newest poll. Don't waste your time. Slava Ukraini!
- 88840-8855 4y ago
- afr0ck 4y agoEurope must regain its independence from the US. Only after that, Europe can defend its interests in the best way possible.
- nradov 4y agoYes the US government agrees, and has been urging European countries to take responsibility for their own defense instead of depending on the US security umbrella. And the EU probably should have done more to compromise on UK demands in order to prevent Brexit.
- orwin 4y agoWhat? in 2012 Eu compromised on Every Single Point. Every points. Not as much as the UK wanted sometime, but to put the brexit on EU is disingenuous. Also, the US government is really weird on EU security. Because while Trump pushed for higher defense spending, the military was in Belgium and Germany saying "See, you have to get new fighters carrying our bombs, and since the Viper is abandoned and we won't upgrade your F18 into superhornets, you will have to buy our F35". So Germany and Belgium at least will be paying an order of magnitude more in maintenance costs for at best the same air capabilities. But they did finance Lockheed, so all is good?
- Barrin92 4y agoOne lesson from this disruption of energy markets seems to be that it renders visible the incredibly inflated value attached to service economies. I strongly remember the "Russia's economy is the size of Italy, what's that going to do?!" arguments in spring.
- djhaskin987 4y agoThis kind of campaign would not be possible in the US because the provider can simply turn your service off with no questions asked, where from their FAQ it sounds like turning it off is heavily regulated in the UK. On the one hand, solar panels will not fix this problem. Sun and wind both die down in the UK in the winter. You need hydrocarbons. Honestly, if it were me, I'd ask them to turn my gas off and just heat a few rooms with electric heaters, and buy lots of blankets. It's not very convenient, but wearing a coat indoors is free. That feels more honest than stealing their gas and then not paying for it. Sure, they're probably ripping me off. Doesn't mean I should do the same.
- Raed667 4y agoProvider turns off utility for 100 people, those 100 people have a problem Provider turns off utility for 1 million people, the provider has a problem Collective action works.
- jzwinck 4y agoNot much gas will get stolen. This campaign says they'll stop their direct debit arrangements. They'll still owe the money and most people will pay eventually. It may squeeze the utility companies a bit in the short term though, and I wonder if they have insurance for this kind of thing.
- nradov 4y agoUtility companies don't purchase insurance against their customers not paying. The utilities can draw down their capital reserves, or if necessary borrow money to continue operating until customers pay their bills.
- Teknoman117 4y agoEither hydrocarbons or nuclear if renewables aren't an option.
- djhaskin987 4y agoIf only nuclear energy weren't so unpopular. Certainly it's unpopular in the states, though I can't speak to the UK.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hadlock 4y agoEnergy costs are high because there's not enough energy (oil, gas) to go around. Prices go up as people compete for the hot commodity. People have an upper limit that they are willing to pay, so usage is curbed. I am not sure how lowering fuel/energy prices at the beginning of fall is not going to cause life-threatening shortages by mid-winter. If prices follow demand/use then there ought to be enough fuel to last the winter. You cannot strike to create more energy, unfortunately.
- lucd 4y agoOnly purpose of this kind of initiative is to cause trouble.. Marketed by the same trolls who spread medical disinfo, climate negationism, Russian propaganda..
- Ekaros 4y agoEventually most of them will end up paying in one way or an other. Some might get away with it, but so do they today. If you own property I'm sure someone is willing to buy the debt and fund the fight.
- anovikov 4y agoI just asked my Russian friend how much do they pay for heating. He said he has no idea about his own place but has a bill for a small 31m2 rental he has and it was 1290 rub per month (charged year round). Average UK house is 1582 sq ft i.e. 4.74x bigger so would be 6226 rub or 86.93 GBP per month or 1043 per year. Meaning, the Brits are now paying only 1.86x as much (1940 GBP annually) and are about to pay about 3.3x as much (3500 GBP), meaning heating currently takes a smaller part of their incomes (UK nominal GDP per capita is over 3x Russian) and are about to pay about as much. Is it really that much to be concerned with? I haven't heard about anyone complaining on their heating bill in Russia.
- stunt 4y agoWhat a headache it causes in the world. I don't think anyone can measure the total cost of lost productivity in Europe, just people who read the news and worry. Sad.
- jimbob365 4y agoIs this now moot because the govt has frozen the price cap?