9 ms·

Long-term cardiac pathology in individuals with mild initial Covid-19 illness

118 points by belltaco 4y ago

phendrenad2 4y ago
I find it funny that 25% of comments are people complaining that they didn't assess the effects of the vaccine. And yet those people will be the first to believe that there's a vast conspiracy against studying the effects of the vaccine. You can't really have it both ways, you know? If you want to see governmental negligence, look no further than the fact that studies like this keep coming out, and no one in government is taking them seriously. Guess we'll all just die from heart problems from mild covid? The governments of the world seem entirely okay with that.
nigrioid 4y ago
"The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed."
- jcoq 4y ago
  > "The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed." I think you're either paraphrasing deceptively, or you are being intellectually lazy. Perhaps it is better to not assume malice... The rest of the quote is: "In total, 144 participants received an mRNA vaccination between the baseline and the follow-up scan. We performed separate analyses for participants with vaccination as well as for participants without vaccination. The results were not different from the findings of the full cohort as presented. The cardiac effects of vaccination require further research."
  - nigrioid 4y ago
    Malice with respect to the researchers or the CDC/Pfizer?
    - jcoq 4y ago
      I was saying that I think it's better to assume you're not dishonest, just intellectually lazy.
ramesh31 4y ago
At a certain point these articles have blended into the background “this thing is bad for you” noise. We’ve all had COVID at this point. Either we will or we won’t have complications down the line. I don’t care to worry about it anymore.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  There is nothing wrong with this comment other than "all" should instead be "most.
- azinman2 4y ago
  I haven't had COVID at this point, and information like this helps me understand how much I should be trying to continue this conservative lifestyle that's let me avoid it thus far. It's helpful to know what the complications are, because not only can people better understand the potential source of issues, it helps direct research & attention to where it's needed for treatment.
  - sprior 4y ago
    Same situation as you and totally agreed.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Given that many people don't have any symptoms, how do you know that you haven't had it? The latest wave seemed to be very thorough at infecting every last person.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      If one has been working remotely, gotten everything delivered, and not spent any time out and about since January it's reasonable to assume that they never caught it. Little to no contact with outsiders means little to no chance of contracting it.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
bamboozled 4y ago
I honestly wonder how many studies have been done on peoples fitness in 2022. Most people I know do next to nothing for their cardio vascular systems, or their health. Maybe these things are unavoidable no matter how fit one is, but some in their thirties are less fit than 75 year olds I know.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  yeah, this study is missing controls
  - mikewarot 4y ago
    Well, where can you get a large population who haven't been exposed to Covid-19, to be that control group?
    - qbasic_forever 4y ago
      China.
    - mbreese 4y ago
      Ideally you’d use matched historical controls from before 2019. Depending on the study, that’s a common source for “controls”. But it depends on using measurements/diagnoses that are roughly standard. For example, prior to 2019, 30-40 years old made up X% or people diagnosed with a cardiomyopathy. Post 2020, that number is Y%.
      - cma 4y ago
        But many other diseases are way down since 2019, due to more social distancing and remote work.
        Scoundreller 4y ago
        or less testing!
    - 4y ago
Scoundreller 4y ago
Can this explain why the quality of twitter has taken a dive (in my opinion of course)? I blocked all the crypto stuff by blocking 'bitcoin' and 'crypto', as well as 'trump', but something has been going on for the last 6-12 months. I mean, all the crypto stuff at least objectively made sense: people trying to make money, but I don't know what's going on anymore.
zuminator 4y ago
I always wonder with these reports, how does Covid-19 compare with other illnesses of comparable severity such as influenza? Such as, does the flu have potential of long term cardiac pathology? Is it possible we will eventually determine that all manner of infectious disease generally has a deleterious, long term systematic effect on the body that has largely gone unnoticed, albeit not perhaps to the same extent as Covid?
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Just look at the death counts, COVID-19 is killing 10x more people than the flu per year. You realize over a million Americans are dead in two years from COVID-19, right? The flu in a similar timespan kills ~100k. Right now COVID-19 is the #3 killer of Americans, period. Right behind heart disease and cancer. Doesn't seem comparable to the flu _at all_.
  - RalfWausE 4y ago
    - deepdriver 4y ago
      - RalfWausE 4y ago
        Ok, let me rephrase it: "It is very comparable to the flu if you look at the time when Columbus introduced illnesses in the americas that would later benefit eurpean settlers - and so unknowingly introduced biological warfare to the americas".
        deepdriver 4y ago
        Unwittingly spreading disease is simply not biological warfare. There is no such thing as “unknowingly” waging it. That is just a pandemic.
fsociety999 4y ago
This entire study should never have made it through peer review for this alone: > The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed. In total, 144 participants received an mRNA vaccination between the baseline and the follow-up scan. We performed separate analyses for participants with vaccination as well as for participants without vaccination. The results were not different from the findings of the full cohort as presented. The cardiac effects of vaccination require further research. 144 out of 346 total participants is statistically significant, but this number only includes people who received a vaccine dose between the baseline and the follow-up. The study makes no mention of people who received a vaccine dose before the baseline measurement. Since the baseline group covered people who got COVID between April 2020 and October 2021, there is a high likelihood that even more people were vaccinated before they were selected to participate in the study. Therefore, it’s impossible to prove if the cardiac related issues have to do with COVID or the vaccine. In addition, two of the three authors of this study received speaker fees and grants from Bayer AG who helped develop and manufacture COVID vaccines in Europe.
- birken 4y ago
  The vast majority (>80% for men, >90% for women) of professional cyclists have gotten vaccinated, who are among the most closely monitored endurance athletes in the world, whose livelihood depends on their cardiovascular system. If the vaccine were actually dangerous to your heart (or rather, more risky for their heart than getting COVID while being unvaccinated), they'd had have more than enough data to show it.
  - thro388 4y ago
    Several vaccines were pulled from market for causing heart problems.
    - fabian2k 4y ago
      The AZ vaccine was not pulled from the market, the recommendation was changed to not give it to younger people anymore. Or at least this was the case for any market I know where it was initially approved.
trention 4y ago
Not only has covid knocked ~2 years off the life expectancy in the US, it is likely to permanently knock a lot more of the healthy life expectancy. The long tail of sequlae is a reality and no level of denying and "I just want to live my life not worrying about it" will change that.
thentherewere2 4y ago
I'll add my anecdotal experience, got covid in 2020, got the vaccine a year later and felt butterflies in my chest immediately after. Went away after a few seconds but after a month discomfort started during intense exercise. Another month later and I went to the ER with mild pericarditis. Its been a long ~year of recovery where I had to keep my HR under 100 and take tons of anti-inflammatories. Got lucky that I had it mild and finally back to normal (minus getting out of fitness), lets hope it stays that way. What I learned (perhaps too late lol): * Medical Science is largely empirical (requires statistical nous), unfortunately doctors do not understand statistics, take argmaxes and treat things deterministically in the guise of evidence based medicine. * Said doctors advise Insurance companies so any doctors that do understand statistics will be bounded within the confines of what the insurance company considers evidence based medicine. This creates wasted work and even frustration as the doctor has to jump through hoops to get things done. * getting a rare disease or disease with uncertainty requires becoming an expert on it to "correctly" navigate the health system (US here). I have a newfound appreciation for not only those who have to deal with insurance but simply navigating the uncertainty.
- beagle3 4y ago
  Getting a rare disease means you have to become the expert of your own disease in other places as well. For the “average” rare disease, the vast majority of the people in the medical system have either (a) not heard of it at all (b) had one paragraph (at most, one lecture) about it while studying. (c) have likely not met a patient with said disease, or maybe a couple over a decade or two The doctors you see have no time to study and be up to date about multiple rare diseases. Whereas you have the time and the motivation (and hopefully the ability) to understand all the updates, consider anecdotes, etc.
- timr 4y ago
  I got the vaccine long before getting Covid (about a year before), and have had palpitations ("butterflies") since the vaccine. Are the two related? No idea. But it illustrates the fallacy of relying on anecdote. For anything. That said: we know that the vaccine causes myocarditis in younger men, and the rate is at least in 1 in 5000, and quite probably higher than that [1]. A recent study of Thai boys suggested a much higher rate, on the order of 1 in 100 [2]: [1] https://anishkokamd.substack.com/p/vaccine-myocarditis-update-from-thailand?r=6chj5&utm_medium=ios https://anishkokamd.substack.com/p/vaccine-myocarditis-updat... [2] https://twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1560617943762878464 https://twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1560617943762878464
halfjoking 4y ago
- aklemm 4y ago
  Classic! Good ol’ trialsitenews.com and a declaration from a rando that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. Your thing is a danger to everyone.
wesleywt 4y ago
Researchers investigate effects of covid on the body. HN commenters.... BUT THE VACCINE. This site is really full of psuedointellectuals.

118 points by belltaco 4y ago

I find it funny that 25% of comments are people complaining that they didn't assess the effects of the vaccine. And yet those people will be the first to believe that there's a vast conspiracy against studying the effects of the vaccine. You can't really have it both ways, you know? If you want to see governmental negligence, look no further than the fact that studies like this keep coming out, and no one in government is taking them seriously. Guess we'll all just die from heart problems from mild covid? The governments of the world seem entirely okay with that.

nigrioid 4y ago

"The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed."

jcoq 4y ago
> "The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed." I think you're either paraphrasing deceptively, or you are being intellectually lazy. Perhaps it is better to not assume malice... The rest of the quote is: "In total, 144 participants received an mRNA vaccination between the baseline and the follow-up scan. We performed separate analyses for participants with vaccination as well as for participants without vaccination. The results were not different from the findings of the full cohort as presented. The cardiac effects of vaccination require further research."
- nigrioid 4y ago
  Malice with respect to the researchers or the CDC/Pfizer?
  - jcoq 4y ago
    I was saying that I think it's better to assume you're not dishonest, just intellectually lazy.

ramesh31 4y ago

At a certain point these articles have blended into the background “this thing is bad for you” noise. We’ve all had COVID at this point. Either we will or we won’t have complications down the line. I don’t care to worry about it anymore.

osigurdson 4y ago
There is nothing wrong with this comment other than "all" should instead be "most.
azinman2 4y ago
I haven't had COVID at this point, and information like this helps me understand how much I should be trying to continue this conservative lifestyle that's let me avoid it thus far. It's helpful to know what the complications are, because not only can people better understand the potential source of issues, it helps direct research & attention to where it's needed for treatment.
- sprior 4y ago
  Same situation as you and totally agreed.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Given that many people don't have any symptoms, how do you know that you haven't had it? The latest wave seemed to be very thorough at infecting every last person.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    If one has been working remotely, gotten everything delivered, and not spent any time out and about since January it's reasonable to assume that they never caught it. Little to no contact with outsiders means little to no chance of contracting it.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

bamboozled 4y ago

I honestly wonder how many studies have been done on peoples fitness in 2022. Most people I know do next to nothing for their cardio vascular systems, or their health. Maybe these things are unavoidable no matter how fit one is, but some in their thirties are less fit than 75 year olds I know.

Scoundreller 4y ago
yeah, this study is missing controls
- mikewarot 4y ago
  Well, where can you get a large population who haven't been exposed to Covid-19, to be that control group?
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    China.
  - mbreese 4y ago
    Ideally you’d use matched historical controls from before 2019. Depending on the study, that’s a common source for “controls”. But it depends on using measurements/diagnoses that are roughly standard. For example, prior to 2019, 30-40 years old made up X% or people diagnosed with a cardiomyopathy. Post 2020, that number is Y%.
    - cma 4y ago
      But many other diseases are way down since 2019, due to more social distancing and remote work.
      - Scoundreller 4y ago
        or less testing!
  - 4y ago

Scoundreller 4y ago

Can this explain why the quality of twitter has taken a dive (in my opinion of course)? I blocked all the crypto stuff by blocking 'bitcoin' and 'crypto', as well as 'trump', but something has been going on for the last 6-12 months. I mean, all the crypto stuff at least objectively made sense: people trying to make money, but I don't know what's going on anymore.

zuminator 4y ago

I always wonder with these reports, how does Covid-19 compare with other illnesses of comparable severity such as influenza? Such as, does the flu have potential of long term cardiac pathology? Is it possible we will eventually determine that all manner of infectious disease generally has a deleterious, long term systematic effect on the body that has largely gone unnoticed, albeit not perhaps to the same extent as Covid?

qbasic_forever 4y ago
Just look at the death counts, COVID-19 is killing 10x more people than the flu per year. You realize over a million Americans are dead in two years from COVID-19, right? The flu in a similar timespan kills ~100k. Right now COVID-19 is the #3 killer of Americans, period. Right behind heart disease and cancer. Doesn't seem comparable to the flu _at all_.
- RalfWausE 4y ago
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    - RalfWausE 4y ago
      Ok, let me rephrase it: "It is very comparable to the flu if you look at the time when Columbus introduced illnesses in the americas that would later benefit eurpean settlers - and so unknowingly introduced biological warfare to the americas".
      - deepdriver 4y ago
        Unwittingly spreading disease is simply not biological warfare. There is no such thing as “unknowingly” waging it. That is just a pandemic.

fsociety999 4y ago

This entire study should never have made it through peer review for this alone: > The effect of vaccination was not systematically assessed. In total, 144 participants received an mRNA vaccination between the baseline and the follow-up scan. We performed separate analyses for participants with vaccination as well as for participants without vaccination. The results were not different from the findings of the full cohort as presented. The cardiac effects of vaccination require further research. 144 out of 346 total participants is statistically significant, but this number only includes people who received a vaccine dose between the baseline and the follow-up. The study makes no mention of people who received a vaccine dose before the baseline measurement. Since the baseline group covered people who got COVID between April 2020 and October 2021, there is a high likelihood that even more people were vaccinated before they were selected to participate in the study. Therefore, it’s impossible to prove if the cardiac related issues have to do with COVID or the vaccine. In addition, two of the three authors of this study received speaker fees and grants from Bayer AG who helped develop and manufacture COVID vaccines in Europe.

birken 4y ago
The vast majority (>80% for men, >90% for women) of professional cyclists have gotten vaccinated, who are among the most closely monitored endurance athletes in the world, whose livelihood depends on their cardiovascular system. If the vaccine were actually dangerous to your heart (or rather, more risky for their heart than getting COVID while being unvaccinated), they'd had have more than enough data to show it.
- thro388 4y ago
  Several vaccines were pulled from market for causing heart problems.
  - fabian2k 4y ago
    The AZ vaccine was not pulled from the market, the recommendation was changed to not give it to younger people anymore. Or at least this was the case for any market I know where it was initially approved.

trention 4y ago

Not only has covid knocked ~2 years off the life expectancy in the US, it is likely to permanently knock a lot more of the healthy life expectancy. The long tail of sequlae is a reality and no level of denying and "I just want to live my life not worrying about it" will change that.

thentherewere2 4y ago

I'll add my anecdotal experience, got covid in 2020, got the vaccine a year later and felt butterflies in my chest immediately after. Went away after a few seconds but after a month discomfort started during intense exercise. Another month later and I went to the ER with mild pericarditis. Its been a long ~year of recovery where I had to keep my HR under 100 and take tons of anti-inflammatories. Got lucky that I had it mild and finally back to normal (minus getting out of fitness), lets hope it stays that way. What I learned (perhaps too late lol): * Medical Science is largely empirical (requires statistical nous), unfortunately doctors do not understand statistics, take argmaxes and treat things deterministically in the guise of evidence based medicine. * Said doctors advise Insurance companies so any doctors that do understand statistics will be bounded within the confines of what the insurance company considers evidence based medicine. This creates wasted work and even frustration as the doctor has to jump through hoops to get things done. * getting a rare disease or disease with uncertainty requires becoming an expert on it to "correctly" navigate the health system (US here). I have a newfound appreciation for not only those who have to deal with insurance but simply navigating the uncertainty.

beagle3 4y ago
Getting a rare disease means you have to become the expert of your own disease in other places as well. For the “average” rare disease, the vast majority of the people in the medical system have either (a) not heard of it at all (b) had one paragraph (at most, one lecture) about it while studying. (c) have likely not met a patient with said disease, or maybe a couple over a decade or two The doctors you see have no time to study and be up to date about multiple rare diseases. Whereas you have the time and the motivation (and hopefully the ability) to understand all the updates, consider anecdotes, etc.
timr 4y ago
I got the vaccine long before getting Covid (about a year before), and have had palpitations ("butterflies") since the vaccine. Are the two related? No idea. But it illustrates the fallacy of relying on anecdote. For anything. That said: we know that the vaccine causes myocarditis in younger men, and the rate is at least in 1 in 5000, and quite probably higher than that [1]. A recent study of Thai boys suggested a much higher rate, on the order of 1 in 100 [2]: [1] https://anishkokamd.substack.com/p/vaccine-myocarditis-update-from-thailand?r=6chj5&utm_medium=ios https://anishkokamd.substack.com/p/vaccine-myocarditis-updat... [2] https://twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1560617943762878464 https://twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1560617943762878464

halfjoking 4y ago

aklemm 4y ago
Classic! Good ol’ trialsitenews.com and a declaration from a rando that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. Your thing is a danger to everyone.

wesleywt 4y ago

Researchers investigate effects of covid on the body. HN commenters.... BUT THE VACCINE. This site is really full of psuedointellectuals.